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I've recently been using cloaked banshee openers in all matches, and have opened every game with it. I've run into a couple of problems with it though and was wondering if anyone could help.
First of all, does anyone have advice on how to prevent my opponent scouting the build? I find it very common that my opponent will get a worker into my base and I can't get rid of it before it comes time to put my starport down. Because I'm only gold, my opponent doesn't always counter me like they should, but as I get into higher levels, the opener will be flat out shut down.
Secondly, I feel really unsafe doing this build, particularly against Protoss and 4 gates. By the time I could scout a 4 gate, I will already be fairly committed to this build, so does anyone have any advice. I find that it can do the most damage against Protoss, but is also the most risky.
Thirdly, I have included a replay from a recent TvT I played ( http://drop.sc/351476 ) could anyone give me some general advice about this match and what I did wrong. I thought I played fairly well, but it is always the games you play well in that you can learn the most from at my level in my experience.
Thanks TL.
EDIT: I forgot to say, I realise that I forgot to restart stim after my tech lab was destroyed. I feel that way my biggest mistake
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Opening with banshee agains protoss isnt that safe anymore. It was easier and safer in WoL but now toss has so many agressive openings that will kill you in no time. Any proxy oracle, 4 gate or void-ray all-in means gg unless you have incredible micro and macro.
Your opponent didnt scout your build. He saw only barracks and a factory but scanning your main at around 6:30 would reveal everything and give him time to prepare. When I open with banshee I try to hide starport somewhere in the corner where scan or overlord cant see it (bit more tricky with early observer).
You killed 5 workers but soon after that run into a bunch of marines. Keeping your banshee alive would keep him busy and contained and instead of that he just decided to drop with rather poor result. He played really bad off one base and lost his marine tank push which put him so far behind that he couldnt recover.
Anyways, banshee is great agains zergs but they dont need to build evo anymore to get spores. Toss, bit risky when you get proxied or other shenaningans. Terran is good if not scouted and requires bit of micro to keep banshee/s alive.
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Thanks for watching, I appreciate it. Thanks for your insight as well.
You mention building the Starport off to one side outside of a normal scan/overlord placement. Do you mean that you should just build the Starport over there, or should you put the Factory there as well and put the tech lab on the Factory so that you can switch faster (rather than doing as I did and building all 3 at the ramp)?
You make a good point about the marines, I guess I wasn't thinking at the time, by the time I realised just how many marines there were I couldn't get away from them quick enough to save the banshee.
I know you have already given some feedback, and I appreciate it, but could I ask as a side note; how well did I deal with the first drop? I normally don't react to them very well but I felt that this time it was different. Is there something else I could have done to make it go even better?
Thanks again.
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I would put factory on the right side of your main next to the edge and then starport next to it. As soon as the factory is finished then get tech-lab. Once starport is fnished switching should be very quick. Most terrrans scan around the mineral line so its important to place it somewhere they wont be able to see it. Zergs tend to keep their overlord at the edges of your main, between the main and the natural so keeping your stuff in the middle is rather safer and prevents scouting.
He moved out at 8:45 and SCV at his natural saw it. Dropped a minute later and you in time pulled SCV's. One thing I wouldnt do is to try to attack him with only workers. Two medivacs with marines will annihilate your units  Try to get more marines to shut his drop down or alternatively you could pull your workers with marines together
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Thanks for all the advice, I'll try to keep it all in mind and put it into practice. It really is appreciated :D
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First of all, does anyone have advice on how to prevent my opponent scouting the build? I find it very common that my opponent will get a worker into my base and I can't get rid of it before it comes time to put my starport down. Because I'm only gold, my opponent doesn't always counter me like they should, but as I get into higher levels, the opener will be flat out shut down.
Try what Marine King does. I've started doing it in almost all my games now, as I see it as a good practice. While your rax is building at the ramp, select the SCV working and once you have 100 minerals (not missing any SCVs or anything) hit T to pause construction, and then B+S to build a supply depot to complete the wall off. Let it build for about 2-3s to get up to around 50HP and then hit T again and tell your worker to finish off building the rax. The whole thing only delays you by around 5s and now with a complete wall, unless your opponent sends an early scout it won't be able to enter your base at all, and if it starts attacking the half-built depot at your front then you can easily just finish constructing it.
Not sure if I have a replay to hand to demonstrate it, but it was pointed out by Day[9] on one of his Day[9] Dailies quite a while back. Give it a try.
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On July 26 2013 01:30 14681 wrote:Show nested quote +First of all, does anyone have advice on how to prevent my opponent scouting the build? I find it very common that my opponent will get a worker into my base and I can't get rid of it before it comes time to put my starport down. Because I'm only gold, my opponent doesn't always counter me like they should, but as I get into higher levels, the opener will be flat out shut down. Try what Marine King does. I've started doing it in almost all my games now, as I see it as a good practice. While your rax is building at the ramp, select the SCV working and once you have 100 minerals (not missing any SCVs or anything) hit T to pause construction, and then B+S to build a supply depot to complete the wall off. Let it build for about 2-3s to get up to around 50HP and then hit T again and tell your worker to finish off building the rax. The whole thing only delays you by around 5s and now with a complete wall, unless your opponent sends an early scout it won't be able to enter your base at all, and if it starts attacking the half-built depot at your front then you can easily just finish constructing it. Not sure if I have a replay to hand to demonstrate it, but it was pointed out by Day[9] on one of his Day[9] Dailies quite a while back. Give it a try.
Don't even worry about delaying your barracks/Orbital Command to avoid getting scouted when doing cloak banshee, itll be pretty obvious from the delayed barracks that you went gas first (I am at work, cant watch replay now, so Im assuming you go gas first), and most people will just assume you are going to use the gas for banshees because of the recent buff.
When P sees you gas first, they will get out the robo or a forge because 90% of the time you are either going to mine drop or cloak banshee harass, and either way they need the detection (assuming they don't decide to just 4 gate to kill you before you even get the tech up)
T doesn't even need to scv scout you at all, they can just scan you and have enough time to get the ebay and turrets. When I play TvT I tend to see a lot less people scv scouting because you either send it really early (which costs you a bit) and get in the main before the barracks is done, or you send it at a normal time and run into the wall. I typically dont send the scv until later (if at all), and even then its just to check to see if an expo is down, because Im going to have to scan anyways to make sure of whats going on.
If you wall out the zerg they can just overlord scout you in plenty of time as well, especially since they make spores without evo, and the first overlord should be in position to scout in plenty of time to get detection.
Basically, just putting the barracks down at 13 instead of 12 is pretty much enough of a tell as it is, so why bother spending time and resources on walling off to prevent scouting, when they already have everything they need. Also, if the enemy worker is sticking around long enough to see your starport going down then you have MORE than enough time to finish the barracks, THEN wall and trap them. You should have marines out to kill the worker LONG before the starport goes down, I'm really not sure how they are keeping a worker in your base long enough to scout the starport going down.
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was the banshee buff implemented? I don't see it in my patch notes
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On July 26 2013 04:14 Cheerio wrote:
was the banshee buff implemented? I don't see it in my patch notes
Yes it has been implemented. It was live for days before I realized it because I never saw the updaate, but its been up now for a week at least.
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Im posting here to remind myself to look at your replay when I get home from work!
Until then, I will lay down general advice that may or not apply to your game:
I dont think gas first is very strong in tvt, reaper cc into banshee is stronger~
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The alternative is to complete the wall off early (by halting construction on the Barracks) and simply not going for gas first... Even though that will delay your build, sometimes I find that denying scouting is well worth it.
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On July 26 2013 05:29 Entirety wrote:
The alternative is to complete the wall off early (by halting construction on the Barracks) and simply not going for gas first... Even though that will delay your build, sometimes I find that denying scouting is well worth it.
To me, when I see super early walloffs like that it just screams shenanigans. Every other race has to make due with early scouts that check gas, you can too. Theres enough stuff you can do off gas first that without seeing the addons later on you cant be certain whats coming anyways, though current meta seems to be banshees. You can kill the enemy scout with the first marine anyways, so you still deny the critical information but without delaying your build. Even though he knows aggression is coming based on early gas, he can still prepare incorrectly, over prepare etc, and that will also set him back.
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After watching your replay I have a few points for you:
Starport with tech lab as your wall off is probably the easiest way to get that scouted and sniped.
Don't do that.
I'll still with my recommendation in saying you should reaper cc then go into banshees, so that you have some economy to fall back on. The reaper is for scouting so you can prepare for any kind of all in.
Also when going banshees you should always have either widow mines, tanks, or both for defense, or you're just going to die to all-ins.
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Both gas first and rax then gas are fine for cloak banshee builds. I wouldn't recommend opening with cloak banshees against toss nor against zerg (at least not 1 base cloakshees vs zerg). As such, take all of my suggestions as if you were playing tvt. If it matters to you, I'm high masters as terran.
Also when going banshees you should always have either widow mines, tanks, or both for defense, or you're just going to die to all-ins.
I don't agree with blindly following this suggestion. Use your banshees and maybe a relatively early hellion to scout and see what corners you can cut. I would avoid building an early tank tvt unless absolutely necessary. A mine that is out in time for an opponents banshee however, is not a bad idea and not a huge investment.
I'll still with my recommendation in saying you should reaper cc then go into banshees, so that you have some economy to fall back on. The reaper is for scouting so you can prepare for any kind of all in.
Reaper CC is a perfectly fine build, but a banshee followup does not seem ideal. Banshees do damage because of the time that they arrive/the minimal number of units the opponent has/limited number of scans. If you show up a couple minutes later your opponent is going to have enough marines, more orbitals, and, potentially, medvacs/vikings, This will result in you doing minimal damage with very little deviation for defense on his part.
As a suggestion to help with denying worker scouting of your opening it really comes down to your early marine micro. You should always be able to force the worker out, or kill it, before your opponent sees a starport.
I would suggest watching a couple professional terrans who like banshee openers (byun comes to mind but that may of changed as I haven't watched his stream in a couple of months) and copy their build orders and their reactions to various builds of their opponents.
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I was assuming the current meta of the other player also going reaper cc
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I was assuming the current meta of the other player also going reaper cc
Which still doesn't change anything. They are going to followup with 3 rax or 111 and be in a better position to take minimal damage than versus a traditional banshee opener.
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EPT
