Hey guys I made a video today show casing a different style of zvz that I am finding very strong.
It is muta/ling/bane/swarmhost which is very strong versus a zerg that is not going mutalisks themselves.
Here is the video where I go over it:
Here is the build order: Muta/ling/bane/swarmhost build
9 – overlord 15 – hatch or pool (this is up to you) 17 – overlord 17 – gas 100 gas – metabolic boost 50 gas – baneling nest 5:00 – spine crawler 6:00 – lair 6:00 – double gas 6:20 – 4’th gas Lair finishes – spire Spire is down – Take a 3rd Ling production until spire is about to finish Spire finishes – double evo and +1 air attack +1 melee/+1 carapace and baneling speed Infestation pit Locust upgrade and swarmhosts
2 replays:
there is a replay show casing roach into roach/hydra while I deny his third. Ironically the same guy for this one. I will show case some korean replays as well linked below.
This looks really sick, definitely going to try it. I love mutas but ling/bane/muta vs roach/hydra/infestor only wins if I get a perfect engagement or deny his 3rd for long. The addition of swarmhosts looks great!
Cool build, I really like the flow of thought here. I do have a few questions though that I don't THINK you answered....
1) What do you do against a 2-base roach timing? I know, in general, roach timings with +1 and speed mess up muta builds pretty hard and force you to either 1) mass spine or 2) go roaches yourself. Is there a specific way you deal with these types of timings without having to deviate REALLY far?
2) Does this type of style work well on more open maps like Bel'Shir Vestige? It seems like it would have a harder time against a really mobile roach player on a spread out map. With the swarm hosts unable to defend all 4 bases simultaneously, can you really get the gas you need to get ultras out?
3) In a muta mirror, when and how do you transition? Do you try to make sure you have 3 bases with 2+ spores at each base and THEN go for the swarm host transition? If your opponent keeps making mutas, do you try to match his muta count or just get up infestor/hydra instead of swarm hosts?
Hopefully nothing I asked was painfully obvious and stupid. I haven't really played A LOT of ZvZ, so I don't understand it super well.
On July 09 2013 15:38 SC2John wrote: Cool build, I really like the flow of thought here. I do have a few questions though that I don't THINK you answered....
1) What do you do against a 2-base roach timing? I know, in general, roach timings with +1 and speed mess up muta builds pretty hard and force you to either 1) mass spine or 2) go roaches yourself. Is there a specific way you deal with these types of timings without having to deviate REALLY far?
2) Does this type of style work well on more open maps like Bel'Shir Vestige? It seems like it would have a harder time against a really mobile roach player on a spread out map. With the swarm hosts unable to defend all 4 bases simultaneously, can you really get the gas you need to get ultras out?
3) In a muta mirror, when and how do you transition? Do you try to make sure you have 3 bases with 2+ spores at each base and THEN go for the swarm host transition? If your opponent keeps making mutas, do you try to match his muta count or just get up infestor/hydra instead of swarm hosts?
Hopefully nothing I asked was painfully obvious and stupid. I haven't really played A LOT of ZvZ, so I don't understand it super well.
1. Well if they are doing 2 base roach you need to go spine heavy. This doesn't put you behind because you have to remember that he's not going to have a third and his attack needs to do damage. If he commits to a ton of roaches then takes a third he's not going to be in a great position as that's a lot of resources burnt on useless roaches if he doesn't do damage with them.
2. Yes you can, one thing I made sure to point out is the muta/ling/bane deals really well with that mobile unit composition. I haven't played much zvz on belshir though recently, feels like I rarely play that map so it's not like I have the most experience on this map zvz with this strategy.
3. Muta wars are a bit different in which you obviously don't do this style. In every muta war I am neither of us transitions and one of us dies so I don't know when to transition out of a muta war (I don't think anybody does atm).
1. Well if they are doing 2 base roach you need to go spine heavy. This doesn't put you behind because you have to remember that he's not going to have a third and his attack needs to do damage. If he commits to a ton of roaches then takes a third he's not going to be in a great position as that's a lot of resources burnt on useless roaches if he doesn't do damage with them.
I'm quite surprise, because I thought +1 roaches timing (Snute style) were super strong vs mutas. What if he forces a cancel on your third, expands, put some spores and then immediately switches to hydras and makes a big push with roach/hydra. Can't he confine you one 2 bases? I wonder how you can rely on spines only to defend that kind of play. But if you are actually able to rule out this kind of play, your style seems really strong indeed.
1. Well if they are doing 2 base roach you need to go spine heavy. This doesn't put you behind because you have to remember that he's not going to have a third and his attack needs to do damage. If he commits to a ton of roaches then takes a third he's not going to be in a great position as that's a lot of resources burnt on useless roaches if he doesn't do damage with them.
I'm quite surprise, because I thought +1 roaches timing (Snute style) were super strong vs mutas. What if he forces a cancel on your third, expands, put some spores and then immediately switches to hydras and makes a big push with roach/hydra. Can't he confine you one 2 bases? I wonder how you can rely on spines only to defend that kind of play. But if you are actually able to rule out this kind of play, your style seems really strong indeed.
This was my train of thought as well, do you have any replays perhaps showcasing your style vs this kind of play?
1. Well if they are doing 2 base roach you need to go spine heavy. This doesn't put you behind because you have to remember that he's not going to have a third and his attack needs to do damage. If he commits to a ton of roaches then takes a third he's not going to be in a great position as that's a lot of resources burnt on useless roaches if he doesn't do damage with them.
I'm quite surprise, because I thought +1 roaches timing (Snute style) were super strong vs mutas. What if he forces a cancel on your third, expands, put some spores and then immediately switches to hydras and makes a big push with roach/hydra. Can't he confine you one 2 bases? I wonder how you can rely on spines only to defend that kind of play. But if you are actually able to rule out this kind of play, your style seems really strong indeed.
I do have some replays and I will bump this when I find them, I may not be able to to upload them until tomorrow, but I will try to today.
The roach style if it's 2 base as I said not a big deal, if he takes a third and does the attack you can do a ling counter to kill his third and still defend the attack (I have done this on multiple occasions).
Also a roach/hydra can't confine you to 2 bases because muta/ling/bane still beats roach/hydra in a direct engagement. I have replays show casing that as well. I will upload a few replays to showcase it as I said sometime today, but might have to wait until tomorrow.
Wow, this sounds extremely powerful. I, not probably going to try it, am thinking of how to deal with it. Infestors maybe? Or do I have to act quick and timing or such.
1. Well if they are doing 2 base roach you need to go spine heavy. This doesn't put you behind because you have to remember that he's not going to have a third and his attack needs to do damage. If he commits to a ton of roaches then takes a third he's not going to be in a great position as that's a lot of resources burnt on useless roaches if he doesn't do damage with them.
I'm quite surprise, because I thought +1 roaches timing (Snute style) were super strong vs mutas. What if he forces a cancel on your third, expands, put some spores and then immediately switches to hydras and makes a big push with roach/hydra. Can't he confine you one 2 bases? I wonder how you can rely on spines only to defend that kind of play. But if you are actually able to rule out this kind of play, your style seems really strong indeed.
This was my train of thought as well, do you have any replays perhaps showcasing your style vs this kind of play?
Ok so here is a replay show casing roach into roach/hydra while I deny his third. Ironically the same guy for this one. I will show case some korean replays as well linked below.
1. Well if they are doing 2 base roach you need to go spine heavy. This doesn't put you behind because you have to remember that he's not going to have a third and his attack needs to do damage. If he commits to a ton of roaches then takes a third he's not going to be in a great position as that's a lot of resources burnt on useless roaches if he doesn't do damage with them.
I'm quite surprise, because I thought +1 roaches timing (Snute style) were super strong vs mutas. What if he forces a cancel on your third, expands, put some spores and then immediately switches to hydras and makes a big push with roach/hydra. Can't he confine you one 2 bases? I wonder how you can rely on spines only to defend that kind of play. But if you are actually able to rule out this kind of play, your style seems really strong indeed.
This was my train of thought as well, do you have any replays perhaps showcasing your style vs this kind of play?
Ok so here is a replay show casing roach into roach/hydra while I deny his third. Ironically the same guy for this one. I will show case some korean replays as well linked below.
Alright, nice replays. It seems like you outplay your opponent every time by managing to deny his 3rd systemtically when he was attacking you, good job. But then when do you need to build Swarm Hosts? It it when he stops to be aggressive and starts turtling with infestors? At what time do you feel you're safe teching into them?
why are you going for +1 melee instead of +1 range? its so late anyway that soon after you will go SHs which profit from range much more. or do you like to transition into ultras later on?
1. Well if they are doing 2 base roach you need to go spine heavy. This doesn't put you behind because you have to remember that he's not going to have a third and his attack needs to do damage. If he commits to a ton of roaches then takes a third he's not going to be in a great position as that's a lot of resources burnt on useless roaches if he doesn't do damage with them.
I'm quite surprise, because I thought +1 roaches timing (Snute style) were super strong vs mutas. What if he forces a cancel on your third, expands, put some spores and then immediately switches to hydras and makes a big push with roach/hydra. Can't he confine you one 2 bases? I wonder how you can rely on spines only to defend that kind of play. But if you are actually able to rule out this kind of play, your style seems really strong indeed.
This was my train of thought as well, do you have any replays perhaps showcasing your style vs this kind of play?
Ok so here is a replay show casing roach into roach/hydra while I deny his third. Ironically the same guy for this one. I will show case some korean replays as well linked below.
Alright, nice replays. It seems like you outplay your opponent every time by managing to deny his 3rd systemtically when he was attacking you, good job. But then when do you need to build Swarm Hosts? It it when he stops to be aggressive and starts turtling with infestors? At what time do you feel you're safe teching into them?
It really depends on what your opponent is doing. If he's going super aggressive try to kill you roach/hydra then you will most likely never make them just because you'll be able to deny his third forever if his roach/hydra push fails.
If he is sitting back and not being aggressive, that is when you tech to swarmhosts.
On July 10 2013 16:23 Decendos wrote: why are you going for +1 melee instead of +1 range? its so late anyway that soon after you will go SHs which profit from range much more. or do you like to transition into ultras later on?
+1 range is just a waste of gas, most of the units I have are melee units anyway (ling/bane). Swarmhosts without +1 attack the locusts do sick damage regardless. The video goes over my transition into ultras as that is my transition
Would this build also work in ZvT vs Bio and especially Mech? I love going swarmhosts against Mech but I always thought about going Muta Swarmhost with Ling Baneling support vs Bio. The biggest problem for me is and was shutting down drops with swarmhosts. Maybe you would need to add a few roaches?
I am sorry if I am derailing the Thread. I would be more than happy with response in PM if this doesn't belong in this Thread. I am about rank ~500 in Europe if that helps.
On July 10 2013 17:18 Enema wrote: Would this build also work in ZvT vs Bio and especially Mech? I love going swarmhosts against Mech but I always thought about going Muta Swarmhost with Ling Baneling support vs Bio. The biggest problem for me is and was shutting down drops with swarmhosts. Maybe you would need to add a few roaches?
I am sorry if I am derailing the Thread. I would be more than happy with response in PM if this doesn't belong in this Thread. I am about rank ~500 in Europe if that helps.
I always do swarmhosts vs mech. I always open up mutalisks to because on korea the very few players that go mech drop you all game long with mech if you don't have mutas.
On July 10 2013 20:06 CrueltY wrote: Very interesting build. The video is also really clear about your thought processes and build logic.
Quick question: Are there situations where you would follow-up with roaches, as you did briefly mention it in the video?
Not really, not unless I was like so far ahead aka my mutas denied third and did a ton of economic damage then I might, even then I would probably still go swarmhosts.
My actual question is weither you think swarmhost muta ling baneling works vs bio or not but let's leave that aside.
I enjoy going for swarmhosts in ZvZ but i usually go there of roaches as I personally have trouble making the switch from Muta to swarmhosts. I usually just go muta -> roach. I will give it a try
On July 11 2013 00:40 Enema wrote: My actual question is weither you think swarmhost muta ling baneling works vs bio or not but let's leave that aside.
I enjoy going for swarmhosts in ZvZ but i usually go there of roaches as I personally have trouble making the switch from Muta to swarmhosts. I usually just go muta -> roach. I will give it a try
Yeah it can work vs bio, but it is very map dependent and tbh it's very easy to mess up and lose swarmhosts vs bio so there is that as well. I do it vs bio on a map like akilon for example, but never on a map like whirlwind.
On July 11 2013 00:40 Enema wrote: My actual question is weither you think swarmhost muta ling baneling works vs bio or not but let's leave that aside.
I enjoy going for swarmhosts in ZvZ but i usually go there of roaches as I personally have trouble making the switch from Muta to swarmhosts. I usually just go muta -> roach. I will give it a try
Yeah it can work vs bio, but it is very map dependent and tbh it's very easy to mess up and lose swarmhosts vs bio so there is that as well. I do it vs bio on a map like akilon for example, but never on a map like whirlwind.
Well isnt it also map dependend versus Zerg? Also how do you deal with Ling Baneling Ultra Infestor or just Ling Baneling Infestor. I ran into zergs who just blow up my locusts.
On July 11 2013 00:40 Enema wrote: My actual question is weither you think swarmhost muta ling baneling works vs bio or not but let's leave that aside.
I enjoy going for swarmhosts in ZvZ but i usually go there of roaches as I personally have trouble making the switch from Muta to swarmhosts. I usually just go muta -> roach. I will give it a try
Yeah it can work vs bio, but it is very map dependent and tbh it's very easy to mess up and lose swarmhosts vs bio so there is that as well. I do it vs bio on a map like akilon for example, but never on a map like whirlwind.
Well isnt it also map dependend versus Zerg? Also how do you deal with Ling Baneling Ultra Infestor or just Ling Baneling Infestor. I ran into zergs who just blow up my locusts.
Not really because you don't need 4 base gas to tech and get ultras out pretty quickly. Thanks to mutalisks/ling/bane you are super mobile and can be defensive with it as well. I haven't found any weaknesses even on a map like whirlwind.
Also ling/bane/infestor I have never faced it because tbh that sounds terrible. The reason I am 99% sure this is an awful counter is because you should have ling/bane yourself and you should have mutalisks. Infestors don't deal with spread out mutalisks very well and if you are flanking with ling/bane and have a locust wave coming, I can not see a ling/bane/infestor army EVER killing that unless you only have 1 infestor and you were super behind all game.
For the ultra/ling/bane/infestor, I haven't faced that either because that's not a composition anyone ever goes. There are weaknesses to that to in that if I ever saw my opponent going mainly a ling/infestor composition (no roaches at all) I would be aggressive with swarmhost/muta/ling/bane.
I had an opponent try that to me a long time ago back when every zerg used to go double upgraded ling style and I never lost with a swarmhost push even when they made banelings. So I guess it could potentially work if you sit back and don't tech (remember you should be teching to ultra's as well).
Something I should have mentioned in the video is that if you are facing a roach composition you want to play defensive with swarmhosts while teching to hive, but if your opponent is going ling/infestor then you are to be aggressive. I didn't mention it because it has been a long, long time since I last played a zvz where my opponent went pure ling/infestor and never went roaches.
On July 11 2013 06:59 Enema wrote: If you go 15 pool do you build your hatchery at 15 16 17 or 18?
If you see one / two evo chambers and suspect mass upgraded lings how do you deviate your build?
Sorry for asking so many questions but I am really interested^^
If I go 15 pool I go 15 pool 16 hatch.
Tbh I haven't faced a double upgraded ling style in a long, long time so I can't really comment other then what I think would work. I would get evo extra early and start +1 melee. This is so that lings get 1 shot by banelings. Would make more banelings then normal, and then go into mutalisks.
But as I said I haven't faced upgraded ling style in awhile, other then this video where he went +1 carapace lings, it's the first time I have seen an upgraded ling style in a long time it's really died off on the ladder.
Heya Blade, I've been watching your youtube videos on and off and I just want to say it's been a great help after coming back from a long hiatus. I'm crushing my ZvZ's with this build and the times I lose it's because I played suboptimally rather than the build being the problem. Thanks!
Glad to see this surfacing as a popular build, I've been doing it since release to players who didn't open muta (especially after the spore buffs). It's really good for holding those 2 and early 3 base timings and it allows you to easily get to hive. I personally recommend broodlords as a followup over the ultralisk. Ultralisk don't synergize very well with swarm hosts -the locusts really mess with their pathing due to their range and quantity and the upgrades aren't the same.
Broodlords means you can forgo the melee upgrade in favor of ranged to make your locust stronger, and you already have +1 air from the mutalisk. Banelings prevent him from running underneath you with hydras and they also kill infested terrans very quickly, so the only thing he can do to stop your broodlords is either to build a spire and wrest air superiority from you or just mass counter attack and try to abuse your mobility.
Once you have broodlords out you can split your swarm hosts into more defensive positions (2-3 per expansion) to prevent counter attacks and attack with the rest of your army.
Blade for president! Sick good guide, you do a great job on the vods. I've been wondering about transitioning out of muta against non-muta players for a while now, and this looks like the way to go.
On July 13 2013 02:04 Nasreth wrote: Glad to see this surfacing as a popular build, I've been doing it since release to players who didn't open muta (especially after the spore buffs). It's really good for holding those 2 and early 3 base timings and it allows you to easily get to hive. I personally recommend broodlords as a followup over the ultralisk. Ultralisk don't synergize very well with swarm hosts -the locusts really mess with their pathing due to their range and quantity and the upgrades aren't the same.
Broodlords means you can forgo the melee upgrade in favor of ranged to make your locust stronger, and you already have +1 air from the mutalisk. Banelings prevent him from running underneath you with hydras and they also kill infested terrans very quickly, so the only thing he can do to stop your broodlords is either to build a spire and wrest air superiority from you or just mass counter attack and try to abuse your mobility.
Once you have broodlords out you can split your swarm hosts into more defensive positions (2-3 per expansion) to prevent counter attacks and attack with the rest of your army.
It's a stylistic choice. You can do either and be fine because ultras destroy a roach/bane army anyway. Also I prefer the ultralisks due to mobility and I have never been a big broodlord fan.
I also prefer getting melee upgrades over ranged because I am going ling/bane heavy with the swarmhosts and of course the transition.
On July 19 2013 16:29 Enema wrote: I tried this build.
I find it hard to play offensive with swarmhosts versus a player going for three hatch roach hydra.
I was defending well and once crushed his push he mad a remax on ~40 Mutas and just killed me.
I suppose I should play more aggressive
How turtley were you playing? o_O. If you do the build like I do he shouldn't get a 4'th (at least not without you getting one as well) and should not be able to afford 40 mutas. Sounds like you made some pretty big mistakes to let that happen xD. You only play defensive until you get ultras out which isn't that long. Watch the video again on how I do it and look at my timings, if you just stay defensive whole game yeah you are going to lose to that kind of stuff xD
EPT
