Hello TeamLiquid, I’m JayPower. I’m a grandmaster protoss from team Mythology and this is my second HoTS guide I’m bringing you today. It is a PvT build I’ve seen KT.Zest do and was very interested in doing a guide on for quite a while. After a couple weeks of practice I finally managed to understand the build well enough to make a guide for it. The match where Zest did this build was played on May 4th in the 4th set of KT Rolster vs Woongjin Stars.
This build revolves around doing a timing attack with 3-4 immortals, archons and zealots that hits around 12:30. You don’t always have to attack, the build is set up pretty well to take a 3rd base.
Build overview
You begin with some early game zealot stalkers mcs pressure. Although I highly recommend it, it’s optional. On some maps you can send your zealot on a path where it will avoid the possible incoming reaper. With this zealot you will be scouting mostly, getting a scv kill on a bunker or CC on the low ground can happen too. + Show Spoiler +
But the most important part of the zealot is to scout. + Show Spoiler +
After your cybercore is done, you get a msc and a stalker right away. If your opponent didn’t see your zealot, you will most likely have to use your first stalker to defend. If you scouted with the zealot that your stalker and msc can arrive at his natural before his bunker is done, you should chronoboost a 2nd stalker out to defend and send the first stalker to attack. + Show Spoiler +
Don’t forget to take your nexus behind this; this little pressure shouldn’t be your main focus.
After scouting that your opponent is going for the expand as well (whether this is a 1rax FE, reactor rax FE, reaper FE or a different type of expand), you put down the robo and a forge. + Show Spoiler +
This will be for a fast observer (only 1) and +1 armor. If your opponent is going for widow mine aggression, you need to get a cannon in both mineral lines.
You will get an immortal as your observer scouts your opponent’s base and 2 more gateways behind this. If your opponent is going for a drop heavy early-game (most commonly helbats), you have to constantly produce stalkers from your one gateway. This will delay your 2nd and 3rd gateway a little but keep you safe in the early game. At this point in the game you’re just chronoboosting probes heavily while getting the +1 armor. Around 8:40 is when you add a twilight council, 2nd forge and 5 more gateways. After this you start immortal production again. Don’t forget the templar archives. + Show Spoiler +
This is also the right time to send out at least 1 probe to make proxy pylons all over the map. This will help you spot drops and warp in reinforcements when you’re attacking. Around this time is when the terran will come with his 10min medvac timing push, main main concern is to get charge out to deal with it.
From this point your main concern is to stop drop aggression from the terran while getting charge, +1/+2 and more immortals. I recommend making at least 1 cannon in every mineral line, leave your mothershipcore at home and try to find out where your opponent’s medvacs are located. You have to do this while making as few stalkers as possible; you will need the gas for archons. Don't bother trying to snipe the medvacs with stalkers, just have enough zealots at home to deal with the drop once it unloads. When you’ve prepared for drops and have at least 2 archons and 4 immortals, it’s time to go for the attack. You cut probes at 45 (32 on minerals, 12 on gas and 1 to make proxy pylons.). + Show Spoiler +
Start charge when your twilight council is done and restart immortal production
10:40 templar archives
12:00 try to move out from now on while defending drops.
Quick tips
Don’t try to line up your twilight council and 2nd forge with the +1 armor. I’ve made this mistake myself and it distorts the build quite heavily.
Don’t us high templar in your base to defend drops if you’re going for the attack. Medvacs won’t have enough energy to kill them and you really need as much gas as possible for archons in your attack.
Send your first zealot on a path to avoid the reaper. I’m saying this again because it’s really important. This quick zealot will catch your opponent off guard more often than you would think.
Use a warp prism to drop immortals if your opponent has a wall off or well placed tanks. + Show Spoiler +
In this game my opponent prepared well for the attack and I overcommitted to the attack leaving me a bit behind initially. I transitioned into storm and was able to win in a pretty cool macro game. I definitely recommend this game.
In this game my opponent goes for a standard widow mine drop while expanding. He followed this up with a big 2base allin with scv pull. This game demonstrates how important it is to use feedback on the medvacs before making your archons if it’s possible.
This was a pretty good macro game. I made some mistakes like not mining gas from my 3rd base until later, my blink was very late and I had too many probes in the late-game.
Even though I played this game cross server, I think my execution of the push and drop defense was pretty decent.
Answered questions
On May 23 2013 02:44 Sated wrote: Why do you get +2 Armour when Archons don't benefit and Immortals have their Hardened Shields? Wouldn't getting +2 Attack and +1 Armour be better? Serious question, I don't know the answer
Nice guide! Well written, just like your PvZ guide. It looks like a really strong attack. I'm having a lot of success with 3 Immortal 6 Gate builds that hit at around ~10:00 (thanks Nyast!), so I'll be looking into mixing this in as well :D
Even though this attack is so centered around having immortals and archons as key units, the +2 armor charge zealots is what the actual strenght of your army will be.
On May 23 2013 03:30 ZeRoX-45 wrote: Why wouldnt you save gas and for shrine instead of archives? It's 50 gas per archon save and minerals aren't really a problem with this build.
This is a timing attack, not an allin. he states that you can take a third base and play macro from this build if you want. doing dark shrine wouldn't allow this flexibility imo
I’m JayPower. 20 years old and from the Netherlands. I play Protoss at a grandmaster level. My stream: http://www.twitch.tv/jaypower/. I stream my ladder games with commentary over there. I interact a lot with viewers and try to maintain a positive atmosphere that focuses on improving.
My twitter: https://twitter.com/JayPowerSC2. I don't tweet a whole lot. I mostly use it to update my followers on the content that I make and when I stream.
My website: http://jaypowersc2.com/. The site is still in the making and is lacking updates. Soon it will be completed.
Please give me feedback on the guide. I really do appreciate any feedback, so please give me suggestions on how I can improve. Any questions about the guide are welcome too, I will try to answer them as soon as possible.
^very legit question. zealots benefit greater but i don't think they're the main part of this build so maybe you could switch it up and see how it works. do you know where i could find notes on the build you stated?
On May 23 2013 02:44 Sated wrote: Why do you get +2 Armour when Archons don't benefit and Immortals have their Hardened Shields? Wouldn't getting +2 Attack and +1 Armour be better? Serious question, I don't know the answer
Nice guide! Well written, just like your PvZ guide. It looks like a really strong attack. I'm having a lot of success with 3 Immortal 6 Gate builds that hit at around ~10:00 (thanks Nyast!), so I'll be looking into mixing this in as well :D
Even though this attack is so centered around having immortals and archons as key units, the +2 armor charge zealots is what the actual strenght of your army will be.
On May 23 2013 02:42 poultrypouch wrote: don't ucap hack?
On May 23 2013 03:30 ZeRoX-45 wrote: Why wouldnt you save gas and for shrine instead of archives? It's 50 gas per archon save and minerals aren't really a problem with this build.
This is a timing attack, not an allin. he states that you can take a third base and play macro from this build if you want. doing dark shrine wouldn't allow this flexibility imo
So many great Protoss guides lately. It will take a while to go through every single one of them. Do you plan on making a guide for standard macro PvT? I saw Artosis use that a lot, and seems pretty bullet-proof, yet hard to get it right.
The build looks interesting. Oz played very greedy though and got 7 workers killed by 2 hellions, which in my opinion shouldn't have happend. Other than that, k0p seems to be moving out at 12:00, this is when you can already have 4 immortals. So if you recognize the build you can make even more if needed. As far as breaking the terran, I think it's possible, but I'm not 100% sure. If you can drop 2 immortal behind (or to the side of) his army to prevent your whole army from going through 1 choke, then yes + Show Spoiler +
. This is however not possible on every map and the terran can prevent that so it really depends how defensive the terran is set up.
On May 23 2013 22:27 Kinon wrote: So many great Protoss guides lately. It will take a while to go through every single one of them. Do you plan on making a guide for standard macro PvT? I saw Artosis use that a lot, and seems pretty bullet-proof, yet hard to get it right.
I'm not sure what kind of PvT guide I'll do next. I don't find standard macro build very interesting because a lot of other people make those already. I prefer bringing new stuff to the table.
On May 24 2013 16:29 Goedebuur wrote: Thanks a lot for the guides JayPower, this really helps to diversify my play. Any chance you got something nice in store for PvP?
No problem! Sadly I'm not working on anything for PvP. It's very hard to find/make a all-round protoss build that doesn't auto-lose to a certain build.
I added today's proleague match between KT.Stats and SKT.Fantasy in the OP.
Stats went for a slightly different opener. He got a quick second gas before expand and got a quicker robo with that, also some more sentries in the early game. He adds a 2nd gateway a bit faster but besides that the build is pretty much the same. Fantasy went for some very agressive play with widowmine and hellbat drops into a 3rd base. But he wasn't able to hold the timing attack.
Holy shit been playing around with this build quite a bit and it's sick.
If you don't mind, please add something in the OP about defending a terran countering with drops while you push, and i'll add this to the recommended threads
I'm only in gold league but I had hard times against terran. With this build I crush them like a hell . This build is very good for learning map awarness - against medvac drops. In these league when terran playing bio the only thing you have to do is denying these drops since ~8:00-11:30 (still don't know medivac timings). For me this is solid build to learning PvT.
This seems like a pretty solid and well done build!
I think it's worth noting that in the first game you linked with KT in it, he uses hallucinations to trick the Terran into thinking that he is going down that tech path. No anti-archon units were on the field, and there were 4 useless Vikings. Although the Terran had been scouting the whole game, he was out of position when KT's army hit, and lacked the appropriate units to deal with the attack. KT hid the attack well, and I think that's a major part of this build.
Also
On June 04 2013 07:56 Teoita wrote: Holy shit been playing around with this build quite a bit and it's sick.
If you don't mind, please add something in the OP about defending a terran countering with drops while you push, and i'll add this to the recommended threads
Probably leave your MSC at home to overcharge any incoming drops, as well as warp in chargelots while you're attacking the front.
Wow I'm surprised that you can do so well against T without either storm or colossus. Does this army composition work as well when the army numbers on both sides are larger? (like near maxed out)
On May 23 2013 04:13 DemigodcelpH wrote: Jay if the Terran is doing k0p's 2 base 4 factory 13:00 timing push would Terran hold this?
It's important to note that k0p did this on the OLD fighting spirit which has 1 rich gas geyser, this makes his push a lot faster. We don't know if this kind of push is even possible on a regular map.
Great build and really good guide!Do you have a replay of a "perfect run" of the build (one without any interruption from your opponent or one versus very easy A.I.) to be able to see how it should go ideally? (Sorry for my bad english)
I am a terran mid master player and I've just lost against this build. Is there any tips to counter this timing attack? Somebody talked about the units you should build in order to win or at least survive to it. What are they?
On July 12 2013 04:38 tomahawk077 wrote: Hi everybody!
I am a terran mid master player and I've just lost against this build. Is there any tips to counter this timing attack? Somebody talked about the units you should build in order to win or at least survive to it. What are they?
Thx for your replies!
I think it might help if you add a replay of your loss.
Looks like just what I need to get out of my PvT slump. Thanks for this well put together guide. I especially love the BM in the second game in the new rep pack. "WHAT U GOT UNDER YOUR HOOK SUCKER". I lold.
Cool build. Seems a bit technical for me (I'm only Platinum) but I will try it out. Also, what if you see that your opponent isn't fast expanding; then what?
You can still defend 1base harassment builds like fast widow mine drops with the gate/robo/forge build, just get a cannon up in time in at least one mineral line.
If he's one base allining do the standard 5gate zealot/immortal/sentry or stalker (depending on his army composition). You can probably complete +1 armor before his push too, which is kinda neat.
On July 13 2013 23:27 tomahawk077 wrote: There it is my replay, I guess I mostly made some micro mistakes but I'd be glad to hear your comments. Maybe a better scouting could have helped...
I think the protoss in that game kind of skipped drop defense. Of course it is hard to know if protoss is going to get defense in the form of cannons before they move out. If they do, you would like the have more army rather than have medvacs flying around. But as far as your defense. It didn't seem like you responded to the attack at all. You didn't have extra bunkers, no wall off. When you got rid of all the immortals, you even had a slim chance of mass repairing the bunker. All in all I would say focus more on defense (bunker, supply depot wall off and have scv's pulled). I will try to find some replays where I lose with this build and post them. They will a bit outdated though, I remember losing a lot to terran adding helbats quite fast to their army and they just melt zealots.
On July 13 2013 23:27 tomahawk077 wrote: There it is my replay, I guess I mostly made some micro mistakes but I'd be glad to hear your comments. Maybe a better scouting could have helped...
I think the protoss in that game kind of skipped drop defense. Of course it is hard to know if protoss is going to get defense in the form of cannons before they move out. If they do, you would like the have more army rather than have medvacs flying around. But as far as your defense. It didn't seem like you responded to the attack at all. You didn't have extra bunkers, no wall off. When you got rid of all the immortals, you even had a slim chance of mass repairing the bunker. All in all I would say focus more on defense (bunker, supply depot wall off and have scv's pulled). I will try to find some replays where I lose with this build and post them. They will a bit outdated though, I remember losing a lot to terran adding helbats quite fast to their army and they just melt zealots.
Thank you for the answer! The fact is I feel like if I lose too many scv defending, or if I build too many bunkers, I will have a huge delay later on on economy, I often lose like that...
In this game my opponent prepared well for the attack and I overcommitted to the attack leaving me a bit behind initially. I transitioned into storm and was able to win in a pretty cool macro game. I definitely recommend this game.
This is just a more recent game where of the attack working and catching my opponent playing a bit too greedy.
I will try out this a bit more now that helbats are nerfed. Those gave me some trouble in the past and I will look how well the build does vs them now.
If anyone is interested in a macro PvT build, I've been using rain's PvT opener for a bit now and I'm quite enjoying it so far. Here is a PvT heavy replay pack: http://drop.sc/packs/1470. Maybe I'll do a guide on the build if there's request for it.
i'd be interested in an in depth macro/standard pvt guide if it addresses everything in detail. are you talking about the 1gate 1 gas expand into robo/collosus? my pvt is rusty on gas/robo/other timings so that would be nice.
In this game my opponent prepared well for the attack and I overcommitted to the attack leaving me a bit behind initially. I transitioned into storm and was able to win in a pretty cool macro game. I definitely recommend this game.
This is just a more recent game where of the attack working and catching my opponent playing a bit too greedy.
I will try out this a bit more now that helbats are nerfed. Those gave me some trouble in the past and I will look how well the build does vs them now.
If anyone is interested in a macro PvT build, I've been using rain's PvT opener for a bit now and I'm quite enjoying it so far. Here is a PvT heavy replay pack: http://drop.sc/packs/1470. Maybe I'll do a guide on the build if there's request for it.
On August 02 2013 12:21 aldochillbro wrote: i'd be interested in an in depth macro/standard pvt guide if it addresses everything in detail. are you talking about the 1gate 1 gas expand into robo/collosus? my pvt is rusty on gas/robo/other timings so that would be nice.
Yes, it'll very much so like that. The reason I'm still doubting is because AGAINTSMURF made a similair guide about this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=410130 . That guide isn't being update anymore though so I will make a guide about rain's PvT opener.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Vdg43kp.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9DpSods.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EsxYMmO.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JVA9NQo.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/no5Dqza.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kZsYc32.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cCkUQpV.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/M2znalf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VK0axdI.jpg)
