EPT[G] Zerg vs Zerg - Defensive Maneuvers - Page 2
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deakinsjt
10 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 19 2013 11:39 deakinsjt wrote: Very useful in ZVZ, thanks Glad to hear it | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
And I dont think you're actually helping the people that cant figure that by themselves because well, you should try and make them think of it by themselves, you should learn them how to learn instead of teaching them directly the result of your own experience. In a general way if you do not figure a lot of things by yourself you cant improve unless you're directly teached what to do. And well, unless someone take them by the hand from bronze to master, they wont get to master by a sum of those little tricks. + if there's a meta game developpement and they start to face new compositions/timings they'll be helpless. and well, finally, just saying, but some of your tricks are kinda questionnable, like the roach wall. Better wall your choke with them, stack drones if lings try to kill them, get a couple hits on the lings to make them leave and repeat. Unless you do have all those roaches because you wanted to push or something, you'll need half the roaches if you wall your choke. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 23 2013 00:11 Natalya wrote: i'm wondering about those kind of guides written to help lower leaguers but with kind of self-evident things. I think pretty much all your tricks should come to mind once you just look at your own games or watch a couple pro streams or just try and think about the game. And I dont think you're actually helping the people that cant figure that by themselves because well, you should try and make them think of it by themselves, you should learn them how to learn instead of teaching them directly the result of your own experience. In a general way if you do not figure a lot of things by yourself you cant improve unless you're directly teached what to do. And well, unless someone take them by the hand from bronze to master, they wont get to master by a sum of those little tricks. + if there's a meta game developpement and they start to face new compositions/timings they'll be helpless. and well, finally, just saying, but some of your tricks are kinda questionnable, like the roach wall. Better wall your choke with them, stack drones if lings try to kill them, get a couple hits on the lings to make them leave and repeat. Unless you do have all those roaches because you wanted to push or something, you'll need half the roaches if you wall your choke. Read the first sentence of the introduction, and you'll understand why I wrote this. I'm aware that it's not a ground-breaking guide, but I wouldn't have wrote it if I didn't think the information was useful. If I understand correctly, you're saying that all the information in this guide is self-evident, and that situational tips are counter-productive for people who are trying to learn because they need to think of these things on their own. You say that new players can't learn unless someone takes them by the hand from bronze to master, but surely you can't actually believe that...people don't need someone to hold their hand and walk them to master. You say little tips aren't important to learning players, but that's simply untrue - StarCraft II is a game of edges and you need to take advantage of every edge possible. You may be experienced in defensive ZvZ and know to position your Queen between minerals when overwhelmed by Zerglings - but not everyone is so fortunate. But why would players who don't know be at a disadvantage after reading this guide? Do you think they can't read a tip and apply it to their own games? I really don't understand your argument about meta-game developments making people who use these defensive maneuvers "helpless" in ZvZ. It seems so far-fetched and unlikely that any substantial changes will be made to the matchup anytime soon, and even if substantial changes were made, I doubt it would effect how Zerglings, Queens, Drones, and Roaches should be managed defensively. In the game you're talking about, the Roach-wall was the clutch defense that won the game - the Roaches were heros in terms of cost-efficiency and I lost virtually no Drones. There was no better situational positioning for those Roaches than a front-wall, and your suggestion to wall the ramp would leave my expansion completely vulnerable and most of my Roaches in a position to sit there passively instead of defend. And your suggestion to use Drones to defend that many Zerglings is suicidal. Watch the replay. | ||
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Uni1987
Netherlands642 Posts
EVO QUEEN EVO | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:35 Uni1987 wrote: The screenshot you open the thread with is not a good example.. That part can be walled off with 2 evo chambers and will leave enough space for a queen to block it. EVO QUEEN EVO Yeah evos can work, but weren't useful given the context of that game. I probably should have chosen a different title picture though. | ||
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Uni1987
Netherlands642 Posts
On April 24 2013 02:55 TangSC wrote: Yeah evos can work, but weren't useful given the context of that game. I probably should have chosen a different title picture though. Why wouldn't that be useful for that game? Instead of the lings attacking all your roaches, they would only be able to attack 2 roaches at a time while the others can still vomit dps from behind. I can't see it, but I will shut up now :p | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 24 2013 05:08 Uni1987 wrote: Why wouldn't that be useful for that game? Instead of the lings attacking all your roaches, they would only be able to attack 2 roaches at a time while the others can still vomit dps from behind. I can't see it, but I will shut up now :p I don't see where I would have had the time to build them, and that's 250 resources that doesn't contribute to the Roach/Ling timing I was planning. Even if I built them before his ling aggression, they would have been in the red by the time he came in. | ||
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Innovation
United States284 Posts
- When defending with Muta (seems obvious) fight over less important buildings, spores, queens. Even if you don't have spores or queens you gain an advantage due to the reduction of splash damage on your mutas. Do not engage in the open but also avoid taking the fight above the mineral line. Splash reduction using drones obviously not ideal. - When attacking with Muta, bring a pack of lings with you to keep beneath your mutas. Again this is about reducing splash damage on your mutas. Avoid battles over your opponents base unless you have overwhelming muta advantage or upgrade advantage. - If you know it's going to be a muta v muta game it is generally accepted that carapace is the superior upgrade to get first, followed by attack upgrade 1-1. My apologies if you'd already mentioned these and I missed it. thanks again for the awesome guides! Edit: realized you are only talking about defensive zvz (in title dummy! talking to myself) and not general zvz. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 24 2013 06:55 Innovation wrote: Hi Tang! As always a really great guide! I would just add a few addition tips for muta wars which is particularly relevant in the current meta. - When defending with Muta (seems obvious) fight over less important buildings, spores, queens. Even if you don't have spores or queens you gain an advantage due to the reduction of splash damage on your mutas. Do not engage in the open but also avoid taking the fight above the mineral line. Splash reduction using drones obviously not ideal. - When attacking with Muta, bring a pack of lings with you to keep beneath your mutas. Again this is about reducing splash damage on your mutas. Avoid battles over your opponents base unless you have overwhelming muta advantage or upgrade advantage. - If you know it's going to be a muta v muta game it is generally accepted that carapace is the superior upgrade to get first, followed by attack upgrade 1-1. My apologies if you'd already mentioned these and I missed it. thanks again for the awesome guides! Edit: realized you are only talking about defensive zvz (in title dummy! talking to myself) and not general zvz. Those are very important points Innovation, thanks for taking the time! If you happen to think of any similar tips for ZvZ Mutalisk engagements, let us know  | ||
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Steeeeeve
United States5 Posts
Thoughts? | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
On April 25 2013 10:06 Steeeeeve wrote: Why is +1 Carapace a better choice for the first upgrade? My initial reaction is that it only provides a significant damage reduction percentage against mutas and queens, where as attack upgrade helps in ALL conflicts (e.g. chasing down ground units, killing overlords faster, AND battles with things which can hit air units). Thoughts? The reason is that muta's attack bounces up to three units. It deals 9 damages to its first target. Then 3 damages to the next target. Then 1 damage to the last. The armor upgrade reduces each of the damages above by 1. That's a reduction of 3 damages. Compare this to attack upgrade. Attack upgrade increases the first attack by 1, second attack by 0.33 and the last attack by 0.11. Other interesting note (taken from Wiki http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mutalisk_(Heart_of_the_Swarm) Attack is preferred against Corruptors as it increases the damage dealt to Corruptors by ~16% while Air Carapace only decreases the damage taken by ~7%. Against Hydralisks, the correct upgrade depends on what Mutalisks are being used to accomplish. Attack upgrades assist in sniping Hydralisks, Queens, and Spore Crawlers, but armor helps soak up damage, allowing more time for ground units to close with the Hydralisks. | ||
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Steeeeeve
United States5 Posts
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TaLuS
Germany17 Posts
You select all the threatened Drones, STOP them, and then press very quickly "F1, Right Mouse Click, F1, Right Mouse Click, F1, Right Mouse Click" and so on. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On May 10 2013 20:53 TaLuS wrote: Hey Tang, thanks for this guide! I heard about another method for spreading Drones vs. Banelings and would like to know how viable it is in comparison to the shown split-method: You select all the threatened Drones, STOP them, and then press very quickly "F1, Right Mouse Click, F1, Right Mouse Click, F1, Right Mouse Click" and so on. Hey TaLuS, that's actually an effective way to split as well as long as you have the hand-speed, I've tried it before and did it too slowly but with practice it would work. Personally I find it easier to manually split with just the mouse, but I think that the method you mention could be just as effective. | ||
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blasceras
Spain18 Posts
Thanks for all the tutorials ! <3 | ||
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iGn1t3
Hong Kong73 Posts
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