EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 36
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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AxiR
Germany944 Posts
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idkfa
United States77 Posts
On March 30 2013 20:26 ThaReckoning wrote: It's greedy in that it doesn't respect any potential timings from the terran. I'm sure he has a lot of BO losses using that opener. You have to have some self control when teching and expanding, you can't get away with as much as he was trying to get away with. Actually, I don't suffer a lot of BO losses against Terran up to that point - which is why I felt compelled to post in this thread, and just because I don't doesn't mean I shouldn't. The nexus cannon is actually really good at allowing my production to come online for the most part - but it fell down on its face against that cheese. But that's not to say that your advice is incorrect, far from it! It's quite correct to say that a "strong opener" (as opposed to a super-greedy one) would have given me a fighting chance. It's like math, "show your work" - getting the right answer from a dumb guess is far from the same thing as getting the right answer because you knew what you were doing. I don't know the Terran timings, outside of the mine/medivac drop and fast-expanding 2 medivac pushes that are standard well before Diamond, which that super-greedy opening I was using works very well against. It's just time for my openings to start working against more varied opponents than ones I'd been facing in the lower leagues. On March 30 2013 20:48 ThaReckoning wrote: It all depends on what the terran does/what your composition goal is. Indeed. Had I an inkling that a Thor was on its way, that fight would have gone very differently, as I wouldn't have brought those two forges up after repelling what I thought was a failed harass or dumb SCV-pull allin. As it happened, not only was a Thor on its way, but a medivac was going to elevate it (and the attendant SCVs/marines) into the main. Here's an example of how the build held up to an unscouted bunker nexus-bust, which is more like what I was expecting. Warning: terrible play on exhibition. Ahh, sub-masters play... http://drop.sc/315889 | ||
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
On March 30 2013 21:06 AxiR wrote: 2 Base swarm host.. i have no idea how to handle it while the locust are already knocking on my natural.. I always open stargate into robo, but stargate units get shut down and by the time i have collosus out he already has to many swarm host.. really don't know what to do. I personally get a second Robo for Colossus production as soon as possible. If I know Swarm hosts are coming, I try to go for a hidden third for the gas. If you invest as much as possible into Colossi, you'll have overmins on 2 bases. I don't build zealots if I suspect Swarm hosts, they are nearly useless imo. If the attack hits I cannon up a bit and build buildings at the front of my natural to create something to shoot at for the locusts. When you have a high colossi count go for a warp prism additionally. This way you can force the Zerg to take a part of his troops containing you to his base to defend, move out in that moment. I am only diamond, too so take this with a grain of salt. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Hidden third is super risky though. | ||
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une_certaine_verve
342 Posts
On March 30 2013 10:36 ThaReckoning wrote: Your expansion build is incredibly greedy, almost anything would have killed you. Before you do anything else, I'd learn a more standard 1g expo build. Silly cheeses like that one are stopped by having a strong opener. Do an expand that has: Nexus down by 4:30 3 gateways + warpgate research finishing at 6 minutes A tech building between 6 and 6:30 Do this, and you should be fine vs that attack. Anyone have a link to a guide/expanded BO for this? I'd like to start doing it properly. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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BelligerentGnu
Canada1 Post
I've been trying to nail down 3 solid macro build orders that don't require a lot of interaction with my opponent so I can work on probes and pylons. 2gate Robo still seems to work well in PvT. I've been 4gateing in PvP just because I wasn't sure what to do, and it's working, but I'd like a good macro build. PvZ seems the trickiest - if I just macro, zergs do silly things like absurdly fast double or triple expand, and at that point the macro race seems largely lost. I'm also not sure what the lategame PvX deathball composition is supposed to look like now - apparently air is much better in HotS? Can someone help me with safe, generic PvP and PvZ macro style game plans, and what the HotS 200 supply deathball is supposed to look like? | ||
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kc2siq
United States319 Posts
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On March 30 2013 22:16 AngryMag wrote: I personally get a second Robo for Colossus production as soon as possible. If I know Swarm hosts are coming, I try to go for a hidden third for the gas. If you invest as much as possible into Colossi, you'll have overmins on 2 bases. I don't build zealots if I suspect Swarm hosts, they are nearly useless imo. If the attack hits I cannon up a bit and build buildings at the front of my natural to create something to shoot at for the locusts. When you have a high colossi count go for a warp prism additionally. This way you can force the Zerg to take a part of his troops containing you to his base to defend, move out in that moment. I am only diamond, too so take this with a grain of salt. Getting a Warp Prism before Colossi to harass with Zealots is really effective, you can dump those minerals, slow the Zerg's attack or maybe even kill him while you defend your bases. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On March 31 2013 03:36 kc2siq wrote: Hey guys, I was just wondering if anyone has experimented with protoss FFE in PvT in HOTS? Details if any please? I think it is even worse, now that people get Reapers and tech faster. It is good vs Widow Mines but bad vs. almost everything else. | ||
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Depeche Mode
22 Posts
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On March 30 2013 10:59 idkfa wrote: Thanks for the feedback, ThaReckoning! I will put your advice into practice. If they go gas you have to go robo first. The general timing is that 13 gas go robo first and if they go 15 gas then go 1 gate Fe because they are going reactored marines. If you see a really really early gas then sometimes i go 20 nexus and get a mothership core first instead of a stalker for photon overcharge. | ||
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paN
Poland1 Post
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oredac
United States1 Post
My favorite unit is the high templar (with zealot/stalker support), but I've heard a lot about templar tech being weak. So, how good is Zealot/Stalker/Templar in the three matchups? Also, should I get sentries? It's hard to control two spellcasters and I already have zealots to protect my stalkers and templar. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On March 31 2013 04:48 oredac wrote: Hi, noobish protoss here, My favorite unit is the high templar (with zealot/stalker support), but I've heard a lot about templar tech being weak. So, how good is Zealot/Stalker/Templar in the three matchups? PvP - zealot/stalker/HT works great against popular void ray combinations. Storm is generally weak against colossus based combinations though, although in the mid game zealot/stalker/archon does fine against colossi as long as you fight in the open and flank well. Late game you will need something else like void rays or colossus of yourself to battle high colossi counts. PvT - zealot/stalker/HT works very well, and is something you can safely rush to off of 2 base. However, as the game progresses, you'll want to switch to or add colossus once the terran gets a lot of ghosts on the field. PvZ - zealot/stalker/HT is good against hydras but weak against roaches and swarm hosts. It will beat mutas in a straight up battle but you still may have trouble against them due to mobility issues. Against heavy roach play you'll need to add something like immortals, colossus, or void rays to your army. On March 31 2013 04:46 paN wrote: Hi ! I Have no idea how to deal (PvZ) with 200/200 Hydra / Roach . Can someone help me ? Colossus and force fields. On March 31 2013 04:34 Depeche Mode wrote: How do I go Stargate in PvZ without delaying my third? When i play PvZ, I feel like i need colossus before I can take my third or else my opponent will just mass on roaches and/or hydras and just kill me, but if go straight to colossus my z opponent might go for mutas and then I'm dead. So yeah, how can go stargate and still be safe without getting colossus that early? A standard stargate > 4 gate > robo > 3rd build will take the 3rd base on zealot/sentry/immortal, without colossus. This should be able to hold early roach/ling attacks. If you scout hydras you should tech to colossus asap, even adding a 2nd robo. You should be able to hold the first wave of hydra with just stalker/immortal and good force fields. If you want an even earlier 3rd IMO you can go straight to void rays (instead of getting 4 phoenixes first), and use them defensively to ward off roach attacks while teching to colossus asap. Don't forget to still get the early 4 warpgates for zealot to help with DPS against lings. If you scout spire, then simply switch to phoenix (and add a 2nd stargate). However, don't feel like you have to open stargate to be safe against mutas. Fast 3rd off a robo only is a reliable build, as long as you utilize your fast obs and/or hallucinations to scout diligently. Once you scout a spire you can reactively add 2 stargates and still be able to defend mutas. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
It seems like you need several force fields in case your opponent tries to go up your ramp and an immortal out kinda fast in order to deal with any stalker pressure. The MSC should have enough energy to photon overcharge nexus, so building right before my nexus seems like the right time. Is there any variation where you can do a 3 stalker rush, get enough sentries in time to force field your ramp, MSC for photon overcharge, and an immortal by the 7 minute mark or something? I'm afraid I can't have everything on my safety list and may have to give one of these things up. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On March 31 2013 06:11 vhapter wrote: Has anyone come up with a solid PvP 1 or 2 gate --> nexus --> robo (or robo --> nexus) build? I was trying to figure something out based on vods. It seems like you need several force fields in case your opponent tries to go up your ramp and an immortal out kinda fast in order to deal with any stalker pressure. The MSC should have enough energy to photon overcharge nexus, so building right before my nexus seems like the right time. Is there any variation where you can do a 3 stalker rush, get enough sentries in time to force field your ramp, MSC for photon overcharge, and an immortal by the 7 minute mark or something? I'm afraid I can't have everything on my safety list and may have to give one of these things up. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402753¤tpage=28#543 Those reps are pretty good. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On March 31 2013 06:11 vhapter wrote: Has anyone come up with a solid PvP 1 or 2 gate --> nexus --> robo (or robo --> nexus) build? I was trying to figure something out based on vods. It seems like you need several force fields in case your opponent tries to go up your ramp and an immortal out kinda fast in order to deal with any stalker pressure. The MSC should have enough energy to photon overcharge nexus, so building right before my nexus seems like the right time. Is there any variation where you can do a 3 stalker rush, get enough sentries in time to force field your ramp, MSC for photon overcharge, and an immortal by the 7 minute mark or something? I'm afraid I can't have everything on my safety list and may have to give one of these things up. Nexus into robo sounds like complete suicide, honestly. Over half of all PvP matches are going to be stargate opens. Going fast Nexus into robo, you're going to suicide more probes than you gain from the fast expand if they go either oracle or phoenix. If they go void ray, they will probably outright kill you. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
How much I lose depends on how tight my build is compared to my opponent's. As long as I don't lose my nexus and get contained, it should be fine. Which is why the msc, sentry, immortal timings are very important to me. | ||
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