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On March 14 2013 02:50 ant-1 wrote:
Guys, how do you handle the new maps with impossible thirds to take versus Zerg (Star station, Neo Planet S, Bel'shir vestige, etc.)? Mass cannons? I veto at least two of them, but it is not a solution...
I also try two base pressure with third taking in the middle of it, but this only works because zergs are busy playing with their new toys and not having a solid response (which nicely fits into the previous messages in this thread). And because I'm playing gold opponents (weird placement due to launch day?). I remember during the beta I could not for the life of me take a third on star station, I really thought they would remove it, yet here it is on release...
I immortal allin every game with a 75% winrate as my solution. I feel kind of bad though because my game sense for PvZ will go down the drain.
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On March 30 2013 00:05 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 22:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
This for me is the issue with medivacs. You don't die to drops but you are really, really stretched if you try to take a third at anything approaching WoL timings. Meanwhile Terrans can sit back and relax, float their third CC down and do huge, huge bio pushes.
Don't get me wrong it's not imbalanced but Terran have a much stronger mid game than in WoL, without actually doing anything strategically different. Most P innovations in HoTS so far all involve pre-medivac aggression as our new units bar the MsC don't really have much utility against standard bio T.
For the record PvT is my favourite matchup, and by far my strongest, so this is coming from me in a non-bitching manner! I feel like PvT is pretty awful in HoTS. We can't really do sentry based (PartinG style) gateway pressure or all ins safely due to widow mines. Blink research time has been increased. We have to deal with stronger 1-1-1s and earlier cloaked threats. The 10 minute medevac timing is more brutal than ever, and it is very difficult to defend drops. In exchange, we get fragile air units that can be shut down with a single turret and that only MC can use effectively.
I think the stargate build was a metagame build and shouldn't really be used as terrans figure it out unless you have the multitasking of mc. This reminds me of when mc would go stargate in PvZ and destroy with it while others had less success with the style.
About PvT I really like the matchup now because you can be extremely greedy. I don't mean greedy as in taking a fast nexus either. The mothership core allows you to get tech/upgrade buildings out before your second and third gate after a 1 gate expand. For example you can go 1 gate robo forge forge gate gate or something incredibly greedy like that as long as you get enough observers vs widow mines. My personal favorite is a very fast forge for armor upgrades as well as fast templar for storm to take a third/end the game if they dont have ghosts. I find going from templar to collosus to be a lot easier than going for collosus into templar as with the latter you are vulnerable to viking timings. However templar first does make you more vulnerable to 2/2 ghost timings and other things. I guess it is a trade off but terrans don't seem used to high templar so fast with such fast 0/2/0 upgrades.
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On March 29 2013 20:59 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 20:16 blae000 wrote:
So what are you guys opening PvT ? I've tried the MC PvT Oracle thing.. But I feel like it have to do damage to be good, and it doesn't feel like the safest of options. But I also think that having a stargate reasonably early is good PvT. I don't really like the colosus death ball-style of play either. So....
On state of the game Artosis talked about going robo rather then stargate makes you super safe in the early game, as well as theognis saying double forge is very strong. And like I've said, I don't really like the colosus death-ball style. So now I'm thinking I have to go something like 1 gate FE, skip the stargate and go into robo while adding gates and double forge. Then hit some sort of colosus timing while taking a 3rd and teching to templar? Then again I feel like earlier templar for feedback vs medivac drops would be good, but maybe not necessary on 2 base?. Also, like I said, just having a stargate for a few phoenixes vs medivacs sound like a really good thing(rather then early templar). So 1 gate FE into robo, double forge AND stargate? Would I even be able to support that? The more I think about it the more it makes sense to go the MC-like opening with stargate into expand THEN add robo and forges a little bit later.. Honestly I feel kind of lost.. What are your guys' thoughts on the MU?
edit:fixed SOME of my horrible english, pardon me! ;D - I agree on 1 gate FE into fast robo being really safe. - Double forge is very strong. One big reasoning behind this is that with new speedvacs it's easier for terran to deny or slow your 3rd. So instead of trying to expand faster to get an advantage, you can go the easier route of faster upgrades to get ahead in the game. - Colo -> templar is still my favorite way to play. A lot of people have success with going straight to templar on 2 base, but I don't feel comfortable with it. It's a personal preference thing though. - I tried going phoenix on 2 base with colossus... couldn't really get it to work. In theory phoenix sounds like a good counter to medivac drops but in practice, they still don't 100% stop all drops, it makes your army really susceptible to mass vikings, and the terran can always still just secure and keep their economic lead.
How are you dealing with fast WM with this build? I did Sase's 1g pressure expand forever in WoL, so when it came time that I couldn't move out on the map due to WM drops, I just did it defensively, and even with all those units at those times terrans were still getting into my mineral lines with them. This has led me with going to 1g expo > SG styles of play, and they're working out really well for me so far.
On March 29 2013 22:16 Teoita wrote:Yeah my third is always way later than i would like it to be, it's usually after like 13 minutes  PvT is my worst matchup by far atm. As far as playing vs greed goes, i agree with rsvp that double forge is very strong. If you can't have a big econ might as well have the strongest 2base army possible.
Yeah, I can only seem to take my third after I've confirmed the terran has/intends to take his. Double forge is also definitely the way to go, and it's very necessary if you open SG first. If you get far behind on upgrades you'll just roll over and die to anything terran does.
On March 30 2013 00:05 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 22:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
This for me is the issue with medivacs. You don't die to drops but you are really, really stretched if you try to take a third at anything approaching WoL timings. Meanwhile Terrans can sit back and relax, float their third CC down and do huge, huge bio pushes.
Don't get me wrong it's not imbalanced but Terran have a much stronger mid game than in WoL, without actually doing anything strategically different. Most P innovations in HoTS so far all involve pre-medivac aggression as our new units bar the MsC don't really have much utility against standard bio T.
For the record PvT is my favourite matchup, and by far my strongest, so this is coming from me in a non-bitching manner! I feel like PvT is pretty awful in HoTS. We can't really do sentry based (PartinG style) gateway pressure or all ins safely due to widow mines. Blink research time has been increased. We have to deal with stronger 1-1-1s and earlier cloaked threats. The 10 minute medevac timing is more brutal than ever, and it is very difficult to defend drops. In exchange, we get fragile air units that can be shut down with a single turret and that only MC can use effectively.
I think you're forgetting that the oracle offers a TON of utility, not just harassment. If you're opening SG, the oracle isn't only for harassment, and that's definitely not even it's best feature. The idea of the oracle is to allow SG openings to be possible by giving them:
- more damage vs small amounts of bio
- detection
- scouting
How many games did you lose in WoL to 1-1-1 opening SG because you had no detection? How many games did you lose because the terran one base raven sniped your observer and you couldn't see where he was on the map? The oracle solves all of those issues for you, if you open SG.
I did have a question though. Is there a way to reactively pressure your protoss opponent, when you gate scout and see that he's cutting corners? I mean cutting HUGE corners, as in getting a robo before a gateway unit, or TC before a gateway unit etc. Basically, how do I punish him for not respecting any timings I can hit as his opponent, but reactively? This is my only recurring problem in PvP that I can't solve.
As a primarily DT expanding player, I lose to these sorts of plays every time I see them. The greedy robo timing hardcounters my initial DT's, and the greedy TC timing makes me instantly lose because his DT's are faster than mine. I have no problem identifying these builds with a gateway scout, I just can't seem to find a way to punish them. I feel like there's something I could do with an early MSC to punish this, but I'm not sure what. Help?
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Italy12248 Posts
If he's stupid enough to show you his tech building can't you just hard counter it? See fast robo go stargate, see fast twilight go 1gate fe into robo or something like that. Plus, you can still DT expand and be safe from DT on your own as long as you get a robo after your nexus; if he's rushing for DT that fast i don't think he wants to expand anyway.
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On March 30 2013 03:39 Teoita wrote:
If he's stupid enough to show you his tech building can't you just hard counter it? See fast robo go stargate, see fast twilight go 1gate fe into robo or something like that. Plus, you can still DT expand and be safe from DT on your own as long as you get a robo after your nexus; if he's rushing for DT that fast i don't think he wants to expand anyway.
I don't actually SEE his tech, but I know he's sprinting for whatever it is. Basically I want to be able to punish that cutting of corners to get super fast tech out, and punish that.
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Italy12248 Posts
You should always scout tech before any gateway unit wtf :O
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On March 30 2013 03:42 Teoita wrote:
You should always scout tech before any gateway unit wtf :O
He doesn't get it LITERALLY before a gateway unit, but I can tell that he's just doing a build that's not flexible enough to react to what I do. He's just sprinting for the fastest tech he can with a roll of the dice, and I need to learn a way to punish the ones that DT expo doesn't hardcounter with a deviation to my build, since I know he won't be reacting to it.
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Italy12248 Posts
Ah. Well in that case i -think- you could just switch into some kind of gateway pressure. I'm not 100% sure on this because i don't really bother scouting anymore in PvP (unless it's a 4player map then i just core scout for the spawning location), but it's worth playing around with it.
For example, if you're going for a 3stalker/msc opening, you could chrono wg hardcore and put pressure on with 5/7 stalkers and your core while expanding behind it.
Alternatively, you could just play greedy yourself.
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On March 30 2013 03:58 Teoita wrote:
Ah. Well in that case i -think- you could just switch into some kind of gateway pressure. I'm not 100% sure on this because i don't really bother scouting anymore in PvP (unless it's a 4player map then i just core scout for the spawning location), but it's worth playing around with it.
For example, if you're going for a 3stalker/msc opening, you could chrono wg hardcore and put pressure on with 5/7 stalkers and your core while expanding behind it.
Alternatively, you could just play greedy yourself.
Can you pull a replay of something like this? I'm really particular about how my builds work early game, it's just one of those things I'm OCD about.
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Italy12248 Posts
Both me and Alej were just screwing around with builds (and we're rusty as shit), but i guess something like this:
http://drop.sc/315598
Also i can totally relate to bo OCD lol.
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How would a stalker+msc pressure do against fast oracle? You don't hit fast enough to catch the oracle, and by the time you break the main he could already have wiped your mineral line?
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Italy12248 Posts
I did that in the game before and i think if i had executed correctly i could have recalled home in time. On the other hand i suck balls so i lost 8 probes.
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On March 30 2013 04:14 Kinon wrote:
How would a stalker+msc pressure do against fast oracle? You don't hit fast enough to catch the oracle, and by the time you break the main he could already have wiped your mineral line?
You would have to leave 2 stalkers at home in your mineral line. You cannot just let an oracle has free reign with your workers (it kills a worker every 2 seconds).
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On the subject of 1gate FEing vs. Terran, one thing I had trouble with is a proxy factory with mines just running into my base to my mineral lines. It's impossible to get detection in time to stop this, so unless your units are stationed at your base entrance to contain the mine entry, you auto-lose as far as I can tell. This happened one time when I tried to pressure Terran with my first zealot/stalker. Widow mine walked right into my base into my main, robo facility not even started yet(I got 1 gateway before robo). I'm assuming this is just one of those things you need to scout and if you think they're doing something fishy like this just hug your ramp to deny the mine entrance.
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Italy12248 Posts
Rsvp posted about that a while ago:
I haven't had much problems facing early widow mines going 1 gate FE. I like to get mostly stalkers out of my first gateway (no sentries), and immediately go for a robo for an early obs. An early MSC to make sure you have enough energy for a photon overcharge when the attack hits helps a lot as well.
The widow mine attack in this replay probably comes a bit later than what you're talking about, but as you can see I'm prepared with MSC and obs + stalkers a long time before the attack hits anyway. Just make sure to micro your stalkers carefully against widow mines (don't attack move into them even with detection, always target fire them otherwise your stalkers will just run into their range before the AI realizes it has a target).
http://drop.sc/313924
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On March 30 2013 02:43 Aiursc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 00:05 Salient wrote:On March 29 2013 22:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
This for me is the issue with medivacs. You don't die to drops but you are really, really stretched if you try to take a third at anything approaching WoL timings. Meanwhile Terrans can sit back and relax, float their third CC down and do huge, huge bio pushes.
Don't get me wrong it's not imbalanced but Terran have a much stronger mid game than in WoL, without actually doing anything strategically different. Most P innovations in HoTS so far all involve pre-medivac aggression as our new units bar the MsC don't really have much utility against standard bio T.
For the record PvT is my favourite matchup, and by far my strongest, so this is coming from me in a non-bitching manner! I feel like PvT is pretty awful in HoTS. We can't really do sentry based (PartinG style) gateway pressure or all ins safely due to widow mines. Blink research time has been increased. We have to deal with stronger 1-1-1s and earlier cloaked threats. The 10 minute medevac timing is more brutal than ever, and it is very difficult to defend drops. In exchange, we get fragile air units that can be shut down with a single turret and that only MC can use effectively. I think the stargate build was a metagame build and shouldn't really be used as terrans figure it out unless you have the multitasking of mc. This reminds me of when mc would go stargate in PvZ and destroy with it while others had less success with the style. About PvT I really like the matchup now because you can be extremely greedy. I don't mean greedy as in taking a fast nexus either. The mothership core allows you to get tech/upgrade buildings out before your second and third gate after a 1 gate expand. For example you can go 1 gate robo forge forge gate gate or something incredibly greedy like that as long as you get enough observers vs widow mines. My personal favorite is a very fast forge for armor upgrades as well as fast templar for storm to take a third/end the game if they dont have ghosts. I find going from templar to collosus to be a lot easier than going for collosus into templar as with the latter you are vulnerable to viking timings. However templar first does make you more vulnerable to 2/2 ghost timings and other things. I guess it is a trade off but terrans don't seem used to high templar so fast with such fast 0/2/0 upgrades.
Are you claiming that you can go 1gate expand, cyber core, then robo, then two forges, and then two more gateways and hold any early pressure (let alone a full out rush/ proxy raxes/ reapers) all because you have a mothership core? And this is at what level of play? What if your opponent, like, scouts you or something?
I agree you can be slightly greedier and defend your natural easier with the mothership core, but I think you're exaggerating a bit.
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On March 30 2013 04:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 02:43 Aiursc wrote:On March 30 2013 00:05 Salient wrote:On March 29 2013 22:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
This for me is the issue with medivacs. You don't die to drops but you are really, really stretched if you try to take a third at anything approaching WoL timings. Meanwhile Terrans can sit back and relax, float their third CC down and do huge, huge bio pushes.
Don't get me wrong it's not imbalanced but Terran have a much stronger mid game than in WoL, without actually doing anything strategically different. Most P innovations in HoTS so far all involve pre-medivac aggression as our new units bar the MsC don't really have much utility against standard bio T.
For the record PvT is my favourite matchup, and by far my strongest, so this is coming from me in a non-bitching manner! I feel like PvT is pretty awful in HoTS. We can't really do sentry based (PartinG style) gateway pressure or all ins safely due to widow mines. Blink research time has been increased. We have to deal with stronger 1-1-1s and earlier cloaked threats. The 10 minute medevac timing is more brutal than ever, and it is very difficult to defend drops. In exchange, we get fragile air units that can be shut down with a single turret and that only MC can use effectively. I think the stargate build was a metagame build and shouldn't really be used as terrans figure it out unless you have the multitasking of mc. This reminds me of when mc would go stargate in PvZ and destroy with it while others had less success with the style. About PvT I really like the matchup now because you can be extremely greedy. I don't mean greedy as in taking a fast nexus either. The mothership core allows you to get tech/upgrade buildings out before your second and third gate after a 1 gate expand. For example you can go 1 gate robo forge forge gate gate or something incredibly greedy like that as long as you get enough observers vs widow mines. My personal favorite is a very fast forge for armor upgrades as well as fast templar for storm to take a third/end the game if they dont have ghosts. I find going from templar to collosus to be a lot easier than going for collosus into templar as with the latter you are vulnerable to viking timings. However templar first does make you more vulnerable to 2/2 ghost timings and other things. I guess it is a trade off but terrans don't seem used to high templar so fast with such fast 0/2/0 upgrades. Are you claiming that you can go 1gate expand, cyber core, then robo, then two forges, and then two more gateways and hold any early pressure (let alone a full out rush/ proxy raxes/ reapers) all because you have a mothership core? And this is at what level of play? What if your opponent, like, scouts you or something? I agree you can be slightly greedier and defend your natural easier with the mothership core, but I think you're exaggerating a bit.
I feel like if the terran does a fast drop build you won't have the unit count to stop it doing this. I've also seen some terrans doing 2-3 rax expo again sometimes, just in case protoss does this. I'd be careful with it.
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On March 30 2013 04:17 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 04:14 Kinon wrote:
How would a stalker+msc pressure do against fast oracle? You don't hit fast enough to catch the oracle, and by the time you break the main he could already have wiped your mineral line? You would have to leave 2 stalkers at home in your mineral line. You cannot just let an oracle has free reign with your workers (it kills a worker every 2 seconds).
How do you know he's going for Oracles when going 3 stalker rush into MSC pressure? With this build Ionly scout my base for proxy, and rely on that fast push to figure out what his doing. So, if he has some units, my first tree stalkers won't be able to get any info. Should I probe scout, or just leave 2 stalkers preemptively?
Sorry for the noobish question I posted in this thread, I'm just a plat toss trying to figure out a safe build in PvP.
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Italy12248 Posts
None is stupid enough to be that greedy unless you're playing vs 1rax fe...and even then, i think it's really risky unless you have Hero's stalker micro.
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On March 30 2013 04:20 Teoita wrote:Rsvp posted about that a while ago: I haven't had much problems facing early widow mines going 1 gate FE. I like to get mostly stalkers out of my first gateway (no sentries), and immediately go for a robo for an early obs. An early MSC to make sure you have enough energy for a photon overcharge when the attack hits helps a lot as well. The widow mine attack in this replay probably comes a bit later than what you're talking about, but as you can see I'm prepared with MSC and obs + stalkers a long time before the attack hits anyway. Just make sure to micro your stalkers carefully against widow mines (don't attack move into them even with detection, always target fire them otherwise your stalkers will just run into their range before the AI realizes it has a target). http://drop.sc/313924
Yeah, this replay isn't quite the same thing I'm talking about. The guy I played against was doing a 1base mine-cheese, not a mine based attack. Literally the only thing he did was run into my base with a mine, followed by another mine shortly after. I've been holding off mine attack timings fine, but a 1base proxy factory will get a mine inside your base before you can get detection up if you 1gate FE. I don't expect to see it much more on the ladder though, since it's very all-in build that wouldn't have worked if I had my units outside my nat to intercept the mine on the way in. It's something to be careful of if you move out to scout around the map and/or pressure your opponent during a 1gate FE, though.
I've only had it happen to me one game. Like you said, usually just getting a fast robo/obs will repel most widow mine aggression. On a different note, I didn't know that about attack moving into them vs target fire, so thanks for the tip.
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EPT
