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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On March 29 2013 01:32 Nuclease wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 01:05 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 29 2013 00:48 Nuclease wrote:
Hey everyone, I have a question to ask on the subject of Airtoss in PvZ.
It seems to me that, very often, a Zerg player can just mass Hydra Roach and attack into a 3 base P with Airtoss and simply kill him. I often don't have Storm by that point, and my Void Rays are just starting to come out about 3 at a time. Is this a symptom of not having enough immortals, Storm, or what? Any suggestions? Thanks TL. Looking forward to discussing this. In old school airtoss you'd have enough phoenixes + cannons and a mothership to cloak to hold that off. I'd assume that nowadays you'd have more voids, and a couple of oracles mixed in to deal obscene damage to the hydras. That, and cannons, lots and lots of cannons. Right now you're telling me what I already have, not what I SHOULD have. In my experience, if they go for REALLY hard macro hatch plus three base Roach/Hydra composition and then push, there is very little my Voids can do to that army. Of course, they are nice against roaches, but the Hydras can just pull back again and again if my Voids overcharge, wait, and then come in a kill enerything I have. If I focus too heavily on voids, I don't have anything that trades well against Roach/Hydra because I don't have enough gas. Maybe faster gas and a focus on Storm would help?
On the right map 2 sentries + what I described should hold just fine. Post a replay and I can help you further. When I used to airtoss I had no trouble vs that with WoL voids, so you should stomp it with the newly buffed ones.
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On March 29 2013 01:50 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 01:32 Nuclease wrote:On March 29 2013 01:05 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 29 2013 00:48 Nuclease wrote:
Hey everyone, I have a question to ask on the subject of Airtoss in PvZ.
It seems to me that, very often, a Zerg player can just mass Hydra Roach and attack into a 3 base P with Airtoss and simply kill him. I often don't have Storm by that point, and my Void Rays are just starting to come out about 3 at a time. Is this a symptom of not having enough immortals, Storm, or what? Any suggestions? Thanks TL. Looking forward to discussing this. In old school airtoss you'd have enough phoenixes + cannons and a mothership to cloak to hold that off. I'd assume that nowadays you'd have more voids, and a couple of oracles mixed in to deal obscene damage to the hydras. That, and cannons, lots and lots of cannons. Right now you're telling me what I already have, not what I SHOULD have. In my experience, if they go for REALLY hard macro hatch plus three base Roach/Hydra composition and then push, there is very little my Voids can do to that army. Of course, they are nice against roaches, but the Hydras can just pull back again and again if my Voids overcharge, wait, and then come in a kill enerything I have. If I focus too heavily on voids, I don't have anything that trades well against Roach/Hydra because I don't have enough gas. Maybe faster gas and a focus on Storm would help? On the right map 2 sentries + what I described should hold just fine. Post a replay and I can help you further. When I used to airtoss I had no trouble vs that with WoL voids, so you should stomp it with the newly buffed ones.
2 Sentries? I have to say, it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about. That shouldn't ever be enough Sentries to hold a third. In any build I've heard of in standard PvZ.
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well the idea behind dt's mainly isnt so much to kill a ton of drones. (it might but thats not the point) the idea is that if he gets a fast third, that wont have a spore there, and i can deny it. if he went fast enough lair (i think anyway) to have an overseer, he wont have the fast 3rd or he wont have enough units to defend a decent push to his natural or 3rd
i like insight from players, but being told 'your idea is bad' isnt an answer i accept unless i keep trying and i lose a ton of games. it is a game and thats my playstyle of choice. i like zealot archon, dts lead into it reasonably well i think, so i want to figure out how to make it work.
if it doesnt, then it doesnt. just figure i can ask for advice on the subject is all ^^
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On March 29 2013 01:53 SaetZero wrote:
well the idea behind dt's mainly isnt so much to kill a ton of drones. (it might but thats not the point) the idea is that if he gets a fast third, that wont have a spore there, and i can deny it. if he went fast enough lair (i think anyway) to have an overseer, he wont have the fast 3rd or he wont have enough units to defend a decent push to his natural or 3rd
i like insight from players, but being told 'your idea is bad' isnt an answer i accept unless i keep trying and i lose a ton of games. it is a game and thats my playstyle of choice. i like zealot archon, dts lead into it reasonably well i think, so i want to figure out how to make it work.
if it doesnt, then it doesnt. just figure i can ask for advice on the subject is all ^^
Im at high master and Ive been doing dt expands vs Z. Its been fun on the bun I almost ALWAYS deny the zergs 3rd. I go regular gate gas at 14 core/zeal gas on 22, stalker, sentry twilight, expand/sentry dark shrine 2 more gates.
Zeal archon can be super good! But I dont think it should be used as a catch all. Use your first 100 setnry energy to phoenix scout. If you see an early hydra den and no roaches, zeal archon AH HOY! If you see mutas, get some SGs, and if you see sh/infestors youre gonna need some colos or something cause melee units vs never ending waves of locust isnt going to work. Also if you see bane lings go blink archon zealot!
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On March 29 2013 01:53 SaetZero wrote:
well the idea behind dt's mainly isnt so much to kill a ton of drones. (it might but thats not the point) the idea is that if he gets a fast third, that wont have a spore there, and i can deny it. if he went fast enough lair (i think anyway) to have an overseer, he wont have the fast 3rd or he wont have enough units to defend a decent push to his natural or 3rd
i like insight from players, but being told 'your idea is bad' isnt an answer i accept unless i keep trying and i lose a ton of games. it is a game and thats my playstyle of choice. i like zealot archon, dts lead into it reasonably well i think, so i want to figure out how to make it work.
if it doesnt, then it doesnt. just figure i can ask for advice on the subject is all ^^
I do something similar when playing PvZ:
FFE > 4-gates, Robo, Twilight, DT > Make 4 DT's and Warp Prism > Expand
PvZ is currently my best matchup at the moment (winrate = 75%)
Against a quick third, most players can't handle it and I almost always take out either a lot of drones, or a hatch (I usually spread out my dt's).
Actually, Liquid'Hero used to do this all the time in PvZ (you can find the guide on the forums - called Heroic FFE), except in the guide I believe you target the main lair.
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On March 29 2013 01:43 vhapter wrote:
Ok guys, I'm having a few problems in PvZ. Scouting zergs is kind of tricky because of spores and overseers allowing him to kill my observer. I'm not entirely sure of the standard timings, like when I should be able to find a hydralisk den or spire. It seems like the window of time to prepare is pretty short. Roach hydra hits really hard and I'm not even sure if that's beatable without somewhat fast colossi.
Mutas come in a huge pack out of the blue and rape probes, pick you apart by taking down buildings everywhere, and own colossi which is theoretically the response to roach hydra from what I've seen so far. Cannons take a while to build and just don't seem to cut it depending on the muta count. Mutas have superb mobility now and blink stalkers can hardly keep up with them. I thought geting fast HTs may help, but that probably wouldn't cut it against a roach hydra army, and even if it does, it definitely wouldn't in case my zerg opponent got swarm hosts.
As for PvP, I have no idea how to open safely. First, you need to account for very aggressive builds such as 4 gates (even if they're slightly delayed). Then, there is the threat of dts. So if you're going stargate, you must (1) be sure you can survive a 4 gate or pressure build without delaying your stargate much, otherwise you will have less phoenixes in stargate mirror and lose, (2) be ready for dts based on limited information or risk losing the game if you skip an oracle, which again would put you behind in the phoenix count in case of stargate mirror, and (3) if you account for all these things just to be on the safe side, you'll probably be too far behind against a somewhat early expand build. It feels very hard to account for so many possibilities without putting yourself too far behind.
PvZ questions:
I really recommend using Hallucinate. Remember, in HotS, you can use Hallucination without researching it! Every couple of minutes you should be sending a hallucinated Phoenix or two to the Zerg's base and have them fly all over, making sure to fly over all the creep you can in their bases. They have a MUCH lower chance of being killed. That way, you should be able to see the Spire or Hydra den get built, and that should give you enough time. If you see a Roach Warren shaking and two evo chambers, you have a VERY high chance of seeing Roach Hydra. If you see mostly Speedlings, you have a much higher chance of running into Mutas. If you see either the spire or hydra den go up, you should be able to get a couple cannons in each mineral line for mutas or tech to collosi or storm as quickly as possible to battle Hydras.
Moreover, I would recommend using Stargate play. If you do a 4gate/robo/Stargate into three base expand, you will have all the resources you need (along with cannons) to battle Roach/Hydra OR mutas. Mutas can be countered by Phoenix if you see them soon enough (as we went over just above) along with cannons and your MSC (plus Stalkers if need be), and Roach/Hydra is battled by Immortals and Collosi or Storm, all of which you can get to pretty quickly with 4gate/robo/SG play. You should have a goal in mind though, such as Airtoss play (in which case you want Storm), Collosi heavy play (in which case tech quickly to Collosi), or whatever you like. If you set a goal with good all-around utility, you shouldn't have a problem battling Roach/Hydra or Mutas.
PvP questions:
In PvP, the two safest ways to open right now are a more Sentry-heavy two-gate MSC expand, or a Stalker-heavy 3-gate MSC aggressive build. You can find builds for both on TL, and by watching MLG vods. The 3 gate is my personal favorite because you can often just straight-up win against teching or expanding builds, and if you build a Stargate and expand while attacking if you're not going to be able to kill him based on your scouting information, you will not be behind in tech or economy because you will be putting pressure on him. I highly recommend that, for now, and to see it you can look at HelloKitty's replay pack he recently put in the Starcraft 2 general forum, or look around this thread and others to find the BO and practice it based on VODs. Good luck!
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On March 29 2013 01:51 Nuclease wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 01:50 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 29 2013 01:32 Nuclease wrote:On March 29 2013 01:05 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 29 2013 00:48 Nuclease wrote:
Hey everyone, I have a question to ask on the subject of Airtoss in PvZ.
It seems to me that, very often, a Zerg player can just mass Hydra Roach and attack into a 3 base P with Airtoss and simply kill him. I often don't have Storm by that point, and my Void Rays are just starting to come out about 3 at a time. Is this a symptom of not having enough immortals, Storm, or what? Any suggestions? Thanks TL. Looking forward to discussing this. In old school airtoss you'd have enough phoenixes + cannons and a mothership to cloak to hold that off. I'd assume that nowadays you'd have more voids, and a couple of oracles mixed in to deal obscene damage to the hydras. That, and cannons, lots and lots of cannons. Right now you're telling me what I already have, not what I SHOULD have. In my experience, if they go for REALLY hard macro hatch plus three base Roach/Hydra composition and then push, there is very little my Voids can do to that army. Of course, they are nice against roaches, but the Hydras can just pull back again and again if my Voids overcharge, wait, and then come in a kill enerything I have. If I focus too heavily on voids, I don't have anything that trades well against Roach/Hydra because I don't have enough gas. Maybe faster gas and a focus on Storm would help? On the right map 2 sentries + what I described should hold just fine. Post a replay and I can help you further. When I used to airtoss I had no trouble vs that with WoL voids, so you should stomp it with the newly buffed ones. 2 Sentries? I have to say, it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about. That shouldn't ever be enough Sentries to hold a third. In any build I've heard of in standard PvZ.
I never made more than two in skytoss, you can't really afford any more than that. Much later in the game I would add 2 more (4-5 base period) just to stop runby's and stuff. Like I said, post a replay. I used to skytoss at mid-high masters all the time, roach hydra is what you want the zerg to do when you skytoss. It's a total waste of infrastructure and resources on his part. You should have a ton of cannons at your third, and with the newly buffed planetary nexus it should be fine to hold against with the 2 sentries you already have. Show me the replay and I can help more.
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On March 29 2013 02:03 SkaPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 01:53 SaetZero wrote:
well the idea behind dt's mainly isnt so much to kill a ton of drones. (it might but thats not the point) the idea is that if he gets a fast third, that wont have a spore there, and i can deny it. if he went fast enough lair (i think anyway) to have an overseer, he wont have the fast 3rd or he wont have enough units to defend a decent push to his natural or 3rd
i like insight from players, but being told 'your idea is bad' isnt an answer i accept unless i keep trying and i lose a ton of games. it is a game and thats my playstyle of choice. i like zealot archon, dts lead into it reasonably well i think, so i want to figure out how to make it work.
if it doesnt, then it doesnt. just figure i can ask for advice on the subject is all ^^ Im at high master and Ive been doing dt expands vs Z. Its been fun on the bun I almost ALWAYS deny the zergs 3rd. I go regular gate gas at 14 core/zeal gas on 22, stalker, sentry twilight, expand/sentry dark shrine 2 more gates. Zeal archon can be super good! But I dont think it should be used as a catch all. Use your first 100 setnry energy to phoenix scout. If you see an early hydra den and no roaches, zeal archon AH HOY! If you see mutas, get some SGs, and if you see sh/infestors youre gonna need some colos or something cause melee units vs never ending waves of locust isnt going to work. Also if you see bane lings go blink archon zealot!
This is what I'm talking about. SkaPunk has the right way to look at it, because he's bending to the situation instead of trying to just bee-line for a certain playstyle.
Be like bamboo, strong and flexible, not like iron, unyielding and brittle.
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On March 29 2013 02:10 Nuclease wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 02:03 SkaPunk wrote:On March 29 2013 01:53 SaetZero wrote:
well the idea behind dt's mainly isnt so much to kill a ton of drones. (it might but thats not the point) the idea is that if he gets a fast third, that wont have a spore there, and i can deny it. if he went fast enough lair (i think anyway) to have an overseer, he wont have the fast 3rd or he wont have enough units to defend a decent push to his natural or 3rd
i like insight from players, but being told 'your idea is bad' isnt an answer i accept unless i keep trying and i lose a ton of games. it is a game and thats my playstyle of choice. i like zealot archon, dts lead into it reasonably well i think, so i want to figure out how to make it work.
if it doesnt, then it doesnt. just figure i can ask for advice on the subject is all ^^ Im at high master and Ive been doing dt expands vs Z. Its been fun on the bun I almost ALWAYS deny the zergs 3rd. I go regular gate gas at 14 core/zeal gas on 22, stalker, sentry twilight, expand/sentry dark shrine 2 more gates. Zeal archon can be super good! But I dont think it should be used as a catch all. Use your first 100 setnry energy to phoenix scout. If you see an early hydra den and no roaches, zeal archon AH HOY! If you see mutas, get some SGs, and if you see sh/infestors youre gonna need some colos or something cause melee units vs never ending waves of locust isnt going to work. Also if you see bane lings go blink archon zealot! This is what I'm talking about. SkaPunk has the right way to look at it, because he's bending to the situation instead of trying to just bee-line for a certain playstyle. Be like bamboo, strong and flexible, not like iron, unyielding and brittle.
well its not like i dont scout and react, a small general write up misses some of those points i suppose. thanks for the responses either way guys ^^
@skapunk: ive been skipping the sentry entirely to get a faster dt out. is there something youve seen that makes you want the sentry before the TC as opposed to just zealots/stalkers to muscle out something happening (assuming you scout them being on 2 base at least?)
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On March 29 2013 02:08 Nuclease wrote:+ Show Spoiler +PvZ questions:
I really recommend using Hallucinate. Remember, in HotS, you can use Hallucination without researching it! Every couple of minutes you should be sending a hallucinated Phoenix or two to the Zerg's base and have them fly all over, making sure to fly over all the creep you can in their bases. They have a MUCH lower chance of being killed. That way, you should be able to see the Spire or Hydra den get built, and that should give you enough time. If you see a Roach Warren shaking and two evo chambers, you have a VERY high chance of seeing Roach Hydra. If you see mostly Speedlings, you have a much higher chance of running into Mutas. If you see either the spire or hydra den go up, you should be able to get a couple cannons in each mineral line for mutas or tech to collosi or storm as quickly as possible to battle Hydras.
Moreover, I would recommend using Stargate play. If you do a 4gate/robo/Stargate into three base expand, you will have all the resources you need (along with cannons) to battle Roach/Hydra OR mutas. Mutas can be countered by Phoenix if you see them soon enough (as we went over just above) along with cannons and your MSC (plus Stalkers if need be), and Roach/Hydra is battled by Immortals and Collosi or Storm, all of which you can get to pretty quickly with 4gate/robo/SG play. You should have a goal in mind though, such as Airtoss play (in which case you want Storm), Collosi heavy play (in which case tech quickly to Collosi), or whatever you like. If you set a goal with good all-around utility, you shouldn't have a problem battling Roach/Hydra or Mutas.
PvP questions:
In PvP, the two safest ways to open right now are a more Sentry-heavy two-gate MSC expand, or a Stalker-heavy 3-gate MSC aggressive build. You can find builds for both on TL, and by watching MLG vods. The 3 gate is my personal favorite because you can often just straight-up win against teching or expanding builds, and if you build a Stargate and expand while attacking if you're not going to be able to kill him based on your scouting information, you will not be behind in tech or economy because you will be putting pressure on him. I highly recommend that, for now, and to see it you can look at HelloKitty's replay pack he recently put in the Starcraft 2 general forum, or look around this thread and others to find the BO and practice it based on VODs. Good luck!
Thanks a lot for your reply!
Are there any replays of this 4 gate robo/stargate style? Do you mean stargate into robo? To be totally honest I don't know exactly when to expand with a stargate. It's like I have to deal a lot of damage with phoenixes, because I don't think you can have enough units to expand as early as I used to with a twilight 4 gate into robo build or vice versa (expand at about 8:40). Or do you mean both idle just for safety or something?
By the way, I wonder how skytoss is supposed to work against mutas. You see, there have been games where I was facing so many mutas I had to go very phoenix heavy, but then the zerg gets corruptors or hydras and things get a lot more complicated. What are you supposed to make against muta into corruptor or hydra, besides HT?
I'll take a look at these 2 PvP builds. But perhaps I should elaborate a little more. I feel like stargate is the best late game choice currently, but while an observer is an all around safe and useful unit, getting an oracle blindly just in case your opponent might be going dts seems kind of bad. If you can't outright shut down all his gateways before he can warp in a few dts, you're screwed and that might end up costing you the game since you can't keep on attacking his main without losing units to dts as well. It feels like safety costs a lot in PvP and that makes me afraid of falling into a trap where I can't improve - either because I was too safe, or because I wasn't safe enough. Should I just face the fact that there is always so degree of coin flipping in PvP and get over it? I hate the thought of not being able to improve because of luck factors.
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Hello TL.
Extremely frustrated diamond Protoss here. In PvP that is
I just cant decide on how to open anymore, cause theres so many possibilities my opponent can do now to "counter" me, blindly or not.
I feel Stargate is the most common these days, but since i dont really like mirror builds i stopped doing that.
I'm more of a person that likes to counter his composition, rather than a war of who has the most phoenix 
I tried going DT a few games, but thats also a pretty common build because SG is very common.
I figuered i didnt really enjoy dt baseraces and autolose to ppl going proxy robo
So i figured, Blink obs must be pretty allround now? (2gate 3 stalker MS core opening into twilight, 1 more gate and robo)
But im really not that familiar with it tbh, so any good tips on how to excecute it?
I know the drill about being active with them, kinda have to deny the natural.
But wondering more when do i take my nat myself? How early can i take it? Can i even take it before poking/attacking?
When do i transition out of stalkers?
Ok hopefully someone can give me a few tips here 
ty in advance,
Cheers
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Northern Ireland26106 Posts
This is more a general quest for feedback of a general schematic.
I am somewhat obsessed with the quest to find a PvZ style that is less timing centric and more multitask-intensive, just for the fun of it and the challenge.
I've noticed one thing Protoss do terribly vZ compared to our Terran counterparts, and that's clear creep and really get solid map control, or at least deny the Zerg's. I do realise that creep is less crucial to clear for Toss due to forcefields mitigating Zerg's manouverability when it does come to the chase, but it would still be advantageous. The problem I find is the only reliable way of clearing creep is generally with big moveouts and posturing with your main force.
I don't know, I know voids would do the job just fine, but they are a big investment in the early game, I wanted something cheaper.
Anyway, in short. Basic standard FFE into stargate with some phoenixes, into 4 gate + robo architecture. Pretty much as standard an opener as you can get, then approach things a bit differently, with an aim to secure more bases/harass the shit out of Zerg. In essence, it's a pretty simple 'plan' that I'd love to actually work the kinks out of in terms of assessing its viability. Yeah it's not a 'build' as such, more an approach, in that the basic 'plan' is all about cutting into Zergs information
1. From your first few Phoenixes being out, use these to clear overlords, snipe lings from towers. This really cuts into Zerg response time the further back you push their overlords.
2. Once the Robo is up, open with an observer and a quick warp prism. Mineral dump in Zealot hitsquads with the prism, keep with your observer and use them to push the creep back as aggressively as you can.
3. Use solely hallucinated phoenixes, rather than sacrificing observers to keep an eye on their tech patterns and scout particular timings they might be gearing up for.
I don't know, might be totally unviable or a bit too 'cute' but I think such an approach might be handy. Zerg lack the easy, 'guaranteed' scouting options of Protoss or Terran (i.e you pretty much have to choose to sacrifice units past a certain point), the more in the dark they are, the more dangerous you are to them as a consequence.
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Italy12246 Posts
If you want to be more harass heavy go double robo on 3 bases. The extra robo is more for obs/warp prisms than Colossi, and those are always useful to have unless z is massing muta. I know monk's been having tons of fun with that.
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Northern Ireland26106 Posts
On March 29 2013 03:19 Teoita wrote:
If you want to be more harass heavy go double robo on 3 bases. The extra robo is more for obs/warp prisms than Colossi, and those are always useful to have unless z is massing muta. I know monk's been having tons of fun with that.
I pretty much always go double robo anyway, for the reason you state . I don't know why more people don't go double robo, it enables you to respond better to Ultralisk switches for one by pumping double immortals, enables you to replace observers with. Most people are fine with massively overbuilding gates and leaving some idle to remax better, I don't understand why double robo is almost seen as a luxury by some!
I was more referring to the idea of opening with map clearance up to the 11/12 minute kind of stage, so that they lack the coverage to defend the warp prism play later on. I've been obsessed with a kind of sequential approach to PvZ for a good while, probably watched too many VoDs of Bisu's style or something. I mean many Zergs are great at spreading creep initially, but when they lose it, they are bad at replacing it, same with good overlord spread.
Anyway, this will be fun to try out. If i wasn't bad I'd post replays and whatnot!
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Italy12246 Posts
People are too busy making the OP void rays to give a fuck about warp prisms >.<
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Northern Ireland26106 Posts
On March 29 2013 03:39 Teoita wrote:
People are too busy making the OP void rays to give a fuck about warp prisms >.<
I hate voids, they feel a bit 'deathbally' at present, which is something I've been longing to move away from for months and months. I also feel they're going to be nerfed so I don't want to rely on them too hard.
Warp prism/zealot harass also has additional advantages in giving you offensive capability without the expense of gas, which pretty much everything else we can do needs.
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So I can't manage to beat Ultra roach Hyrda composition as protoss, I usually ff and guardian shield then use storms while my army tears shit up at a concave, but ultras tear right through my ff and I can't seem to find a hard counter to them, I tried kiting them and that wasnt possible either because the roachs and hyrdas did tons of damage to my army while that was happening. Any ideas? This is currently my only problem I have with PvZ.
Here is the replay:
http://drop.sc/314709
I do lose my temper and go crazy against the guy I was facing, which I'm sorry for that.
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On March 29 2013 06:35 Bargeman wrote:So I can't manage to beat Ultra roach Hyrda composition as protoss, I usually ff and guardian shield then use storms while my army tears shit up at a concave, but ultras tear right through my ff and I can't seem to find a hard counter to them, I tried kiting them and that wasnt possible either because the roachs and hyrdas did tons of damage to my army while that was happening. Any ideas? This is currently my only problem I have with PvZ. Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/314709I do lose my temper and go crazy against the guy I was facing, which I'm sorry for that.
If you're looking for a "hard counter" to Ultras, Immortals are your answer. If they're truly going for a pure Hydra/Roach/Ultra comp, double Robo'd Immortals will tear shit UP. That also lends itself to Collosi, which are also great against that comp by the Z.
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On March 29 2013 01:43 vhapter wrote:
Ok guys, I'm having a few problems in PvZ. Scouting zergs is kind of tricky because of spores and overseers allowing him to kill my observer. I'm not entirely sure of the standard timings, like when I should be able to find a hydralisk den or spire. It seems like the window of time to prepare is pretty short. Roach hydra hits really hard and I'm not even sure if that's beatable without somewhat fast colossi.
Mutas come in a huge pack out of the blue and rape probes, pick you apart by taking down buildings everywhere, and own colossi which is theoretically the response to roach hydra from what I've seen so far. Cannons take a while to build and just don't seem to cut it depending on the muta count. Mutas have superb mobility now and blink stalkers can hardly keep up with them. I thought geting fast HTs may help, but that probably wouldn't cut it against a roach hydra army, and even if it does, it definitely wouldn't in case my zerg opponent got swarm hosts.
As for PvP, I have no idea how to open safely. First, you need to account for very aggressive builds such as 4 gates (even if they're slightly delayed). Then, there is the threat of dts. So if you're going stargate, you must (1) be sure you can survive a 4 gate or pressure build without delaying your stargate much, otherwise you will have less phoenixes in stargate mirror and lose, (2) be ready for dts based on limited information or risk losing the game if you skip an oracle, which again would put you behind in the phoenix count in case of stargate mirror, and (3) if you account for all these things just to be on the safe side, you'll probably be too far behind against a somewhat early expand build. It feels very hard to account for so many possibilities without putting yourself too far behind.
Not that hard to see if hes going double gas.
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So I really liked using double forge in WoL, but now most of my army is not ground. Is it worth it to go for that second Cyber?
To me:
Pros: Get those air upgrades two times as fast and smash your enemy with air composition
Cons: You spend money on a building that you have to get Fleet Beacon if you still want to keep pumping double upgrades out of it. This means you are spending tons of resources just to keep your double cyber schema going.
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EPT
