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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
Yes if you are taking a fast third you have to scout like a madman or you are dead (and never be afraid of cancelling it. If they are pressuring enough to force a cancel then they will be slowed down economically so you should be able to keep up as long as you kept up good probe production. The most common response I have seen so far is mass roach or mass ling to force a cancel, both of which are quite manageable, if they go lings, get oracles, if they go roach pump out voidrays like a madman and delay them with sentries and walls to stop the roaches from targeting the nexus. Voidrays absolutely devour roaches when the charge up spell is activated). I use 4 phoenixes for scouting since also lets me easily snipe queens. If they go spire then expand and throw down a second stargate and you should be safe. as long as you wall off well to prevent a speedling runby, which most good zergs will try to do while they poke with mutas since they assume your main focus will be the mutas.
Never tried a double stargate thusfar, but defenitely going to try it out to see the effectiveness 
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in PvZ, how do you FF when the zerg engaged only on open spaces? There are only so many FF he can just run back ...
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All required to have a subscription sadly 
Anyway, i feel so lost in PvT right now. It used to be my best matchup in wol by far, now it's my worst, by far.. The threat of speedivacs and potential minedrops (with or without still really hard) forces me to play behind, as i can't really take a third until Terran's got his third fully saturated. It just feels like i play from behind as soon as medivacs hit the field. I haven't decided or found anything to be succesful unless playing lesser players by far. Blind cannons are nice and all, but having to spend almost 1k on 2 bases to be safe just puts me behind straight away, unless he somehow loses all his drops and doesn't manage to do any damage at all.
I think my biggest issue is securing a third, since i'm afraid of drops in every location, and don't know if i can fight him straight up, which also is a big problem, i have no clue whatsoever if i can win a fight in tvp, it always surprises me nowadays. But one thing is certain, every game im afraid of drops i get very much behind, and i have no clue how to prevent it. I usually lose the game once everything is on the field (several orbitals for scan, cloak on ghosts sniping ht's before fight and then lose to a-move while he drops 20 supply in 200v 200 fight). Generally i open with either stargate vs gasless expo terran, or expo from anywhere around 20-30 supply depending on what i see, followed up by robo > robo support bay into forge(s) > Ht. I'm usually fine and manage to get third up, but past that the game is extremely one-sided.
What do you guys do in tvp? How do you play in order to not play from behind after 10 minutes? Any special build orders? I'm 600 roughly masters if it makes any differance.
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So I can't manage to beat Ultra roach Hyrda composition as protoss, I usually ff and guardian shield then use storms while my army tears shit up at a concave, but ultras tear right through my ff and I can't seem to find a hard counter to them, I tried kiting them and that wasnt possible either because the roachs and hyrdas did tons of damage to my army while that was happening. Any ideas? This is currently my only problem I have with PvZ.
Here is the replay:
http://drop.sc/314709
I do lose my temper and go crazy against the guy I was facing, which I'm sorry for that.
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Can someone give me some tips based on this replay?
http://drop.sc/314718
Been unsure of how exactly I am supposed to open/when to push or harass vs zerg. I'm diamond league in HoTS.
This is an example of one of my "better" games, scout the third before gas, scout the Hydra so I drop robo for colossi while defending with what I have.
I was planning on immortal sentry pushing then recalling if I couldn't win with it but I canceled my robo so I kinda improvised. Been opening twilight/storm pretty blindly in macro games because its strong vs mutas and storm + cannons + gateways can usually buy me enough time for colossi, or I can build a ton of blink and try to abuse the mobility.
Game is pretty long but if anyone could look at it I'd very much appreciate it. Felt like the general tips (building probes, crono) are pretty solid till 10-12 min mark, I obv know my macro is always my weakest.
Any tips in terms of macro/micro or decision making, scouting, engagements/hotkeys etc? Or like when a good time to counter attack or try to do drops, etc?
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Northern Ireland26802 Posts
If you lose sentries in a big number in the early/midgame vs Z is it worth even trying to replace them?
I've noticed that I delay further tech with that huge gas investment, they don't pool enough energy for multiple forcefields and whatnot.
If shit hits the fan I try to switch up to different compositions that aren't quite as reliant on good forcefields, but alternatively I am not sure if this is actually good practice.
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On March 28 2013 11:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
If you lose sentries in a big number in the early/midgame vs Z is it worth even trying to replace them?
I've noticed that I delay further tech with that huge gas investment, they don't pool enough energy for multiple forcefields and whatnot.
If shit hits the fan I try to switch up to different compositions that aren't quite as reliant on good forcefields, but alternatively I am not sure if this is actually good practice.
It really depends on the zerg composition. If the zerg is going heavy on roaches and/or hydras, then IMO it's very important to replace lost sentries (to maintain a decent number like 4-6). As soon as the zerg brings out tech like mutas, infestors, or other hive units, then I stop bothering with sentries.
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On March 28 2013 10:43 Mellon wrote:All required to have a subscription sadly Anyway, i feel so lost in PvT right now. It used to be my best matchup in wol by far, now it's my worst, by far.. The threat of speedivacs and potential minedrops (with or without still really hard) forces me to play behind, as i can't really take a third until Terran's got his third fully saturated. It just feels like i play from behind as soon as medivacs hit the field. I haven't decided or found anything to be succesful unless playing lesser players by far. Blind cannons are nice and all, but having to spend almost 1k on 2 bases to be safe just puts me behind straight away, unless he somehow loses all his drops and doesn't manage to do any damage at all. I think my biggest issue is securing a third, since i'm afraid of drops in every location, and don't know if i can fight him straight up, which also is a big problem, i have no clue whatsoever if i can win a fight in tvp, it always surprises me nowadays. But one thing is certain, every game im afraid of drops i get very much behind, and i have no clue how to prevent it. I usually lose the game once everything is on the field (several orbitals for scan, cloak on ghosts sniping ht's before fight and then lose to a-move while he drops 20 supply in 200v 200 fight). Generally i open with either stargate vs gasless expo terran, or expo from anywhere around 20-30 supply depending on what i see, followed up by robo > robo support bay into forge(s) > Ht. I'm usually fine and manage to get third up, but past that the game is extremely one-sided. What do you guys do in tvp? How do you play in order to not play from behind after 10 minutes? Any special build orders? I'm 600 roughly masters if it makes any differance.
My 2 suggestions:
1) Go for builds with fast double forge upgrades, so you don't have to take your 3rd that fast. Economy isn't the only way to get ahead in the game, you can fight at an economic disadvantage if you have the superior tech and upgrades.
2) Make a lot of observers, like at least 3. If the terran kills one, replace it asap and prioritize maintaining that obs count versus making more colossus. Use them to track terran movements, or at least see how he is splitting his army. Even partial information is great - for example, if you spot an army moving towards your 3rd but it looks kinda small, then you can probably guess there's a medivac army heading towards your main at the same time even if you don't see it. Then split your army, and you'll be fine.
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May I ask if 2 base blink all ins (vs Z) are dead now? what about blink into fast third and using blink stalkers to defend?
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Northern Ireland26802 Posts
I'm not sure if they're dead as a pressure kind of build, but I think the all-inn 'kill them now' style isn't as effective through a variety of factors.
1. Zerg's openers used to be much more rigid, especially in the era of 'Stephano roaches', so you weren't hitting blind allins, but taking a risk to punish a build which you knew inside out.
2. Hydras are coming out earlier which shred gateway units, even with stellar blink micro. Zergs used to be loathe to make Hydras because they didn't transition well out of them for a variety of reasons (one of which is that they were pretty bad!) and would cut units at those timings to get, for example, a lot of infestors popping out in the midgame. Zerg aren't as reliant on Infestors anymore, and seem more willing to invest in units for defense/aggression, earlier.
3. As to your quick third + stalker question, I don't personally like blink stalkers defensively, except against Mutas or other units that can bypass the terrain. I find their DPS just isn't enough to whittle down the Zerg faster than they can trash your infrastructure. Zealot/Sentry/Immortal + cannons seem better to take quick thirds with, as it was in WoL as well. Basically they actually kill things, and quickly. Zergs cannot just ignore these units and snipe your 3rd nexus cost-efficiently like they sometimes can against big stalker-heavy defences.
I don't know, I'm not a good player or anything but that's how I see it. I'm sure if I'm wrong one of our more knowledgeable posters will duly correct.
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On March 28 2013 12:58 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm not sure if they're dead as a pressure kind of build, but I think the all-inn 'kill them now' style isn't as effective through a variety of factors.
1. Zerg's openers used to be much more rigid, especially in the era of 'Stephano roaches', so you weren't hitting blind allins, but taking a risk to punish a build which you knew inside out.
2. Hydras are coming out earlier which shred gateway units, even with stellar blink micro. Zergs used to be loathe to make Hydras because they didn't transition well out of them for a variety of reasons (one of which is that they were pretty bad!) and would cut units at those timings to get, for example, a lot of infestors popping out in the midgame. Zerg aren't as reliant on Infestors anymore, and seem more willing to invest in units for defense/aggression, earlier.
3. As to your quick third + stalker question, I don't personally like blink stalkers defensively, except against Mutas or other units that can bypass the terrain. I find their DPS just isn't enough to whittle down the Zerg faster than they can trash your infrastructure. Zealot/Sentry/Immortal + cannons seem better to take quick thirds with, as it was in WoL as well. Basically they actually kill things, and quickly. Zergs cannot just ignore these units and snipe your 3rd nexus cost-efficiently like they sometimes can against big stalker-heavy defences.
I don't know, I'm not a good player or anything but that's how I see it. I'm sure if I'm wrong one of our more knowledgeable posters will duly correct.
I have noticed stalkers being used less and less in PvZ lately, both in my own play and on streams. On Nony's stream someone pointed out in one game that he made his first stalker of the game at the 19 minute mark, and that seemed to be a trend in his other games as well. Most of the people I watch seem to be going for zealot/sentry/immortal or zealot/sentry/voidray (or phoenixes if they scout muta), all with mass cannons to take their third. Very few stalkers if any all game. To me stalkers feel useless now, in WoL against roach armies they were good when supplemented with sentries and immortals but now against speed hydras that composition is basically useless, and stalkers don't really fit into other current builds well because of how expensive they are compared to damage output and utility. Charge zealots feel so much better against hydras than stalkers. I would almost go as far to say hydras are better than stalkers now in PvZ. Hydras may be glass cannons but they are insanely powerful when upgraded.
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Northern Ireland26802 Posts
On March 28 2013 14:42 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 12:58 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm not sure if they're dead as a pressure kind of build, but I think the all-inn 'kill them now' style isn't as effective through a variety of factors.
1. Zerg's openers used to be much more rigid, especially in the era of 'Stephano roaches', so you weren't hitting blind allins, but taking a risk to punish a build which you knew inside out.
2. Hydras are coming out earlier which shred gateway units, even with stellar blink micro. Zergs used to be loathe to make Hydras because they didn't transition well out of them for a variety of reasons (one of which is that they were pretty bad!) and would cut units at those timings to get, for example, a lot of infestors popping out in the midgame. Zerg aren't as reliant on Infestors anymore, and seem more willing to invest in units for defense/aggression, earlier.
3. As to your quick third + stalker question, I don't personally like blink stalkers defensively, except against Mutas or other units that can bypass the terrain. I find their DPS just isn't enough to whittle down the Zerg faster than they can trash your infrastructure. Zealot/Sentry/Immortal + cannons seem better to take quick thirds with, as it was in WoL as well. Basically they actually kill things, and quickly. Zergs cannot just ignore these units and snipe your 3rd nexus cost-efficiently like they sometimes can against big stalker-heavy defences.
I don't know, I'm not a good player or anything but that's how I see it. I'm sure if I'm wrong one of our more knowledgeable posters will duly correct.
I have noticed stalkers being used less and less in PvZ lately, both in my own play and on streams. On Nony's stream someone pointed out in one game that he made his first stalker of the game at the 19 minute mark, and that seemed to be a trend in his other games as well. Most of the people I watch seem to be going for zealot/sentry/immortal or zealot/sentry/voidray (or phoenixes if they scout muta), all with mass cannons to take their third. Very few stalkers if any all game. To me stalkers feel useless now, in WoL against roach armies they were good when supplemented with sentries and immortals but now against speed hydras that composition is basically useless, and stalkers don't really fit into other current builds well because of how expensive they are compared to damage output and utility. Charge zealots feel so much better against hydras than stalkers. I would almost go as far to say hydras are better than stalkers now in PvZ. Hydras may be glass cannons but they are insanely powerful when upgraded.
Stalkers are pretty much bad units in many situations but they still have their uses, I don't see them as much of a go-to as in WoL. Even the sickest blink micro in the world will not save them from speed hydras, they prospered ok against them in WoL because they were so slow so forcing them into concaves etc was a bit laborious. They go well with collosus balls as they ever did mind.
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Im plat and i use +2 blink stalkers into fast third, i will usually use the stalkers to kill their third while i take my own. I've gotten to the long macro games and generally i mass up blink stalkers in PvZ...they trade well against hydras in equal numbers, and the thing with blink stalkers is i find you need to be active with them, i usally get a hallucinated phoenix or collosus to give me vision of the high ground so then i can blink in their main or natural and snipe what i can...when i use blink stalkers i find that the thing i must prioritize are hatcheries, mass hydra will beat mass stalker yeah but if you do hit and run sniping of hatcheries they can't exactly mass anyhting. I've been beating diamond zergs with my +2 blink stalker into fast third build infact it's the only thing i do against zerg these days, i find that when i go robo tech they just so happen to go muta and i die, when i go stargate tech they just so happen to mass roach hydra and i die but when i go blink stalkers i beat them. and not to forget this map pool is really good for blink stalkers, alot of the maps have the third and main base connected via high ground so say on korhal or newkirk, i can go snipe 3rd/4th and as their army comes to kill me, blink into main and snipe that then blink down again scotch-free.
I usually build up a tech in the background, recently i go for dt/ht but in wol i used to go robo tech and build immortals in the background because of the mass roach crap they used to pull every game.
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Russian Federation104 Posts
Hi everyone I’m 21 year old student of physics faculty and I’m mid master European protoss as well I really enjoy playing starcraft and teaching ppl) So if u want to improve and ready to invest some money I will be glad to help you! I coach bronze – diamond players (8$ per hour).
Lessons include:
-replay analysis
-improving mechanics
-most suitable BO for every matchup
and MOAR :D
For any additional information contact me:
email vaniagolushko@gmail.com
skype Omg-_-t1red
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Italy12246 Posts
Goddamn it Sated you still 2gate robo despite the msc? :D So stubborn, even Nony stopped doing it.
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With the rise of Stargate thanks to super-Voids in PvP, is it viable to go for Robo-based expands anymore? If so, what, if anything do I need to change from WoL openings?
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EPT
