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On March 26 2013 23:44 Erik.TheRed wrote:
Is it really safe to go zealot-sentry-zealot off 1gate in hots PvP? It seems like a lone MSC could get a free scout and kills
While that is true, you can't just send a lone MSC in PvP, in the event your opponent has stalkers then you've just lost your MSC. You can only send your MSC if you do a build like 3 stalker rush, and by the time you can get 3 or 5 stalkers with a MSC to your opponent he'll have additional units out of the gateway, or the tech is about to finish anyway so it doesn't matter.
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I need some help with my ZvP badly!
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2579213/1/eight/
I uploaded a replay of my latest game http://drop.sc/313972 with hopes of correcting my poor PvZ before I get set in my ways. Currently sitting in platinum as P with ~50 games under my belt so far this expansion. My win rates look like: 64% (9-5) PvP, 67% (10-5) PvT, and 29% (5-12) PvZ. I feel my poor play vs Zerg has carried over from WoL and I would like to change this and push my PvZ win rate to something more acceptable.
Thinking behind what I did in linked game:
I open with an in base forge (after being 9 pooled last game) and place forward cannons as I'm quite scared of letting Zerg macro run away. Cannons finish, taking down his natural followed by a successful defense of the initial Zergling attack. I decide to throw up a lot of Gateways and go Robotics as I figure with the Z now on low economy I would see fast Roaches. After being unsure what was actually coming and still seeing no roaches I threw cannons in my mineral line. After a moment of silence (and a horrible supply cap for myself) Mutalisk swoop in and I feel like I actually did a really good job defending them. Threw down TC and start blink, feeling good. Add on a third base, sweet. So I see about 20 Mutas and decide he's going hard on the Mutas and start High Templars and Storm.
The whole game to this point I've been on equal bases, more workers, and ahead of the Zerg's supply!
He finally decides to clean up my 2 cannons at his natural @ 18 minutes in and takes his 4th base at ~20 mins. This is the first point in the game the Zerg has had more bases than me, and he doesn't even saturate the base before I lose the game. At this point I feel I'm being way too passive and decide to start my push up the map to clear creep and maybe push back a new base. I guess the Zerg spots me not really paying attention to my army and.. then Ultras. Yeah. GG.
Notes:
- Watching the replay I feel like I put too many buildings down early. I went up to 5 Gates, 2 Robos, and the forge I used to expand off of. I've spent most of my SC2 time in Gold league with very very bad macro and try to place more buildings to compensate for my ability to spend money well. Should I stop this practice?
- I obviously missed the Ultralisk switch at the end of the game after losing some Observers. I still don't quite understand how he had so many Ultras after seeing the large number of Mutalisk the Zerg was cruising around.
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If you made it through all that, thank you!
I would greatly appreciate criticism on weak parts of my gameplay, builds to practice, practice partners, or any other help.
eight.317
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I think it would help you to have a better game plan in mind. Typically I would recommend 1 of 2 things in a PvZ - 2 base aggression, or turtle on 3 bases until you're nearly maxed and then attack. Although you had kind of a weird opening, both options would have worked for you. Around 13-14 minutes in you still had the larger army and his muta ball wasn't that big yet, you probably could have just attacked and won - you could have survived any counters with just your cannons + reinforcement stalker warp ins. If you didn't want to risk an attack, then you should have tried to take your 3rd earlier. You had enough stalkers to split them into 2 groups to defend 2 different places at once. You mentioned that you felt like you were being too passive so you chose to move out - there's nothing wrong with being passive as long as you're expanding yourself. Instead of venturing into his side of the map maybe trying to secure a 4th would have been better. Beside early 2 base attacks, I would never push out with my army in a PvZ unless I'm maxed or close to max, or the zerg just lost his army in a failed attack.
Other comments:
- Don't in base forge. 13 forge at the natural ramp is perfectly safe against 9 pool, and you're even fine against 6 pool if you know how to play it right. He could have caused a lot more damage with his first batch of lings if he just attacked your natural instead of trying to go up into your main.
- Scout. Put observers on the map, use hallucinated phoenix to scout the zerg's tech. Don't guess at what the zerg is doing, scout and confirm it.
- There's nothing wrong with overmaking production buildings if your macro is bad. Keep doing it if it helps you spend your money.
- I know I've championed blink + HT against mutas in the past but now I think phoenix is the better response.
- Don't forget to make a MSC! Planetary nexus is really helpful defending against mutas.
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Anyone have thoughts/experience on using DTS to deal with terran drops? I realize this isn't a new concept but with the new shrine I was thinking -
Watching minigun's stream, he suggests only going to 2 early sentries for early game defense (as opposed to 3, since MSC). So I was thinking of just dropping a darkshrine (just 50 extra net gas) around when you choose your tech and just continue along your tech path as normal, i.e not really using the dts.
Deal with drops as usual, splitting etc, but you'll have to ability to warp in dt for extra defense and maybe deter terran if he has to scan every time. Of course you'll have to option to use the dts offensively too if you see a reason.
Not sure if it'd work better with templar or col, if even at all 
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On March 26 2013 18:59 GaliX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 16:09 recklessfire wrote:On March 26 2013 15:00 aznheat80 wrote:
PvZ question.How do you stop a 2-base nydus with swarmhosts and queens? I feel like the swarmhosts can break down your wall so fast and cannons aren't very helpful. you have a replay? i havent been hit by that specific strategy myself, but i would think you need to rush to colossus in order to deal with the swarmhosts or manuever around the army. I am going to post every replay I am facing these Zerg 2 Base against me. Till I know how to beat this... http://drop.sc/313855It was my first game today. I lost horrible and played horrible. I scouted no 3 base and later on the infestation pit. So I was pretty early sure he is going for SH. Sadly I did horrible and was hard supply blocked when the locus took done my wall, so my warprism wasnt able to do any damage. On top I tried to get Colossi out after the warp prism and observer. on top. Why are 5 queens able to stop mass zelots from doing any damage?
Your build order has major optimization problems that are holding you back. I can tell because I've done almost the exact same build of warp prism harass with a quick third. Your warp prism isn't started until 9:00, 30 seconds after it should have already arrived in your opponent's base. Ideally, you want to start your robo at 5:30. Anything after 6:00 is very late. Yours was started at 7:00. When your first gateway finished, you should've canceled the 2nd gateway and started a cybernetics core immediately. Your gas should've been started a lot earlier, which you can do by not building that third pylon in your natural that you didn't need. The robo should start as soon as you've got the gas and warp gate research has been started. When the robo finishes, you want to get the warp prism first, obs second, and robotics bay third. You went in the opposite order.
And there's nothing imbalanced about the zerg's build. He's just playing cheap. He has absolutely no defense in his base until those swarm hosts are ready at 8:30, and would be dead against any early pressure.
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On March 26 2013 23:37 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 22:50 Vansetsu wrote:Since RSVP seems to be answering questions today, I'll chime in with two of my own regarding PvT. 1. It seems as if nexus first or very early nexus builds are very unsafe, due to the amount of damage a terran can do with widow mines ect off of one gas early. Therefore, I tend to go stargate at 28 (probe scout to confirm after 13 gate). The Idea is i can chrono a stalker for reaper defense and use a mothership core and other stalkers to either harass or just confirm expansion or tech, Meanwhile, I'll have an oracle to deal with any widowmine shenanigans, and if they don't seem to be coming, I can send the intial oracle to harass or make a 2nd one. My main dilemma is that in order to get the startgate at 28, along with getting a few stalkers and researching wg, this forces me to take an early 2nd gas around 16. If i see the terran took his 1 gas, but then decided to quickly get his natural up, am I just plain behind no matter what unless he has poor reflexes vs my oracle harass? Or is there a more frugal way to still play conservative, and get a decent expansion timing up, without being so vulnerable to early game pressure? 2. Even after your first base scout of the terran early mid-game, they may only have a 1-1-1 up. At this point though, you are usually laying the groundwork for a specific army type, or still building stalkers, while the terran could still be going bio or mech. When they do go mech, I often run into the problem of getting different variations of mech builds thrown at me, such as some combinations of Thor/hellbat or mass Thor and vikings + either ravens, banshees, or mass widowmines. Without a lot of early preparation, some of these compositions seem very very hard to deal with, Are there any strong tells right now from early scouts to see this sort of play coming? And if spotted, what type of compositions are optimal for dealing with these mech variants? I like to think air toss is the way to go, but many terrans quite often will either make vikings premptivley to deal with possible air tech supplemented by thors, or ravens to counter phoenixes a bit. That seems to take collosus out of the equation, and leaves me with voidrays or high templar. Perhaps I'm missing something important here, but basically there's so much to play around with in mech and air tech for terran, that I can't seem to make a strong educated guess as to what the backbone of my army should consist of when I can at least confirm some sort of mech play. Any help with either of these questions would be greatly appreciated . I haven't had much problems facing early widow mines going 1 gate FE. I like to get mostly stalkers out of my first gateway (no sentries), and immediately go for a robo for an early obs. An early MSC to make sure you have enough energy for a photon overcharge when the attack hits helps a lot as well. The widow mine attack in this replay probably comes a bit later than what you're talking about, but as you can see I'm prepared with MSC and obs + stalkers a long time before the attack hits anyway. Just make sure to micro your stalkers carefully against widow mines (don't attack move into them even with detection, always target fire them otherwise your stalkers will just run into their range before the AI realizes it has a target). http://drop.sc/313924My personal favorite response to any sort of mech play is to go heavy robo (both immortals and colossus). As soon as I scout multiple factories I'll add a 2nd robo, if we're both on 3 bases I'll even add a 3rd robo. It's effective against pretty much any ground based mech combination. Vikings can sometimes be a problem but you'll have stalkers to fight them, and even if vikings end up killing all your colossi hopefully by then your colossi have already killed what they needed to kill (marines, hellbat/hellions). Air can work as well, but like you said, it's just not as versatile of a counter. If the terran goes heavy on marines/vikings with their mech, that can really screw you up. Same thing for fighting terran air, I don't like going phoenix - instead I use blink + storm. However, if it ever gets to late game and he has huge tank lines, then at some point you'll have to switch to air and use carriers or something. In this game the terran goes marine + tank into banshee/viking/raven, by the time he switches to air I'm way ahead but I would still use the same response and unit compositions in a more even game. http://drop.sc/313925
Thanks for the response! I tried some robo openings today, haven't lost a game yet. Then again, I haven't played someone who has gone mass thor + anything yet, so when I do, I'll be sure to post a replay.
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I have a pretty simple question. At what timing should I move out the probe that does a FFE as Protoss? I find that I have this hard-coded timing where I wait until 9 then prepare the probe that will build my first pylon right beside my Nexus, but in a Forge Fast Expand you have to start that wall-in at your natural with your first probe and forge (right?). So which one is it? Send a probe off the line at 8? Or at the beginning of 9?
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On March 27 2013 09:06 apeiro wrote:
I have a pretty simple question. At what timing should I move out the probe that does a FFE as Protoss? I find that I have this hard-coded timing where I wait until 9 then prepare the probe that will build my first pylon right beside my Nexus, but in a Forge Fast Expand you have to start that wall-in at your natural with your first probe and forge (right?). So which one is it? Send a probe off the line at 8? Or at the beginning of 9?
I feel like this depends on the distance the probe will have to travel to get to the FFE position, but its usually early 9 supply.
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On March 27 2013 09:16 WTFRhapsody wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 09:06 apeiro wrote:
I have a pretty simple question. At what timing should I move out the probe that does a FFE as Protoss? I find that I have this hard-coded timing where I wait until 9 then prepare the probe that will build my first pylon right beside my Nexus, but in a Forge Fast Expand you have to start that wall-in at your natural with your first probe and forge (right?). So which one is it? Send a probe off the line at 8? Or at the beginning of 9? I feel like this depends on the distance the probe will have to travel to get to the FFE position, but its usually early 9 supply.
Just rally the eigth out, you are at 9 supply at the time.
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On March 27 2013 06:55 ant885 wrote:Anyone have thoughts/experience on using DTS to deal with terran drops? I realize this isn't a new concept but with the new shrine I was thinking - Watching minigun's stream, he suggests only going to 2 early sentries for early game defense (as opposed to 3, since MSC). So I was thinking of just dropping a darkshrine (just 50 extra net gas) around when you choose your tech and just continue along your tech path as normal, i.e not really using the dts. Deal with drops as usual, splitting etc, but you'll have to ability to warp in dt for extra defense and maybe deter terran if he has to scan every time. Of course you'll have to option to use the dts offensively too if you see a reason. Not sure if it'd work better with templar or col, if even at all
I've been doing this for ages, DT's are my bread and butter against drops. The lower sentry count is a good idea though, I hadn't thought of that. Timing is key though, you can't really make good use of an earlier TC can you? I feel like the good old stalker defense is serving me well enough when I go robo, and if I open stargate, obviously I have phoenixes for that.
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I'm entirely new to protoss, playing at a high plat level right now. Just curious if blink stalker openings instantly lose to 4 gate. Also, if blink stalker should beat stargate if both players play well, because right now I have no idea if that's actually the case.
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Did you know that you can 2 base 7-Gate +2 Blink all-in to GM? :D
I've been doing 2 base +2 Blink all-in against Z these days.
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On March 27 2013 16:53 trias_e wrote:
I'm entirely new to protoss, playing at a high plat level right now. Just curious if blink stalker openings instantly lose to 4 gate. Also, if blink stalker should beat stargate if both players play well, because right now I have no idea if that's actually the case.
Counter his 4G by going 3-stalkers rush. Once you stopped his 4G, he is eco behind and you can continue your tech-tree (robo or stargate).
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 27 2013 16:53 trias_e wrote:
I'm entirely new to protoss, playing at a high plat level right now. Just curious if blink stalker openings instantly lose to 4 gate. Also, if blink stalker should beat stargate if both players play well, because right now I have no idea if that's actually the case.
It's a little complicated right now. Due to the longer blink research time (170 seconds), you won't be able to push out and punish a 4gate as fast as in WoL. As for blink vs stargate, it does well against a phoenix opening. A blink all in will have trouble vs voidray openings though and I'm pretty sure that photon overcharge + voidrays beat a blink all in.
You can play a mass blink stalker/archon/HT composition midgame but that's hard and you have to trade constantly to keep the voidray count down + you should aggressively expand. HerO played a phenomenal game like that on stream yesterday, might post the link to the vod if I can find it.
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Hello, Im having trouble against macro zerg and I dont know when to take my third as a protoss. Do anyone have a nice replay or a nice build order?
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On March 27 2013 22:06 Villelejonet wrote:
Hello, Im having trouble against macro zerg and I dont know when to take my third as a protoss. Do anyone have a nice replay or a nice build order? I take mine at between 6-8 minutes most games now and then just wall up and cannon up a ton. It seems to do well on maps like Bel'Shir Vestige and Daybreak but it is a little more complex on Whirlwind to defend, especially if they go Swarmhost/Corruptor/Overseer.
Also, why don't zergs do that composition (Swarmhost/Corruptor/Overseer and maybe some hydras) more often? It seems so powerful. and their ability to easily snipe observers makes it even more strong. I don't think I have won against it yet, and the one time I did they switched into mutas and I just died.
Luckily I don't face it much right now, most seem to go roach/hydra still which is easy to hold off with stargate into fast third into storm/charge. I've beaten a few Master level zergs with that basic game plan. My PvZ is sitting at something like 85% right now. My PvP makes up for that though, it is sitting below 30%.
Here's my question: how do you deal with lategame viking/marauder/hellbat/ghost compositions? Standard Protoss colossus and templar builds get absolutely ravaged by it. The only thing I can think of is mass voidray/phoenix or perhaps tempest/phoenix or maybe even carrier/voidray or something because all ground-based compositions seem to straight up die versus it. The game I faced it I went archon/immortal/high templar and did speed prism zealot/DT harass (which I got him wittled down to 30 workers because he was actually really bad. Had he played any style I had seen he would have been dead. I was up 2 bases and probably 30-40 workers when he attacked) but he turtled to 200/200 of this composition and walked over my army with carpet bombing of EMPs.
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On March 27 2013 23:27 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 22:06 Villelejonet wrote:
Hello, Im having trouble against macro zerg and I dont know when to take my third as a protoss. Do anyone have a nice replay or a nice build order? I take mine at between 6-8 minutes most games now and then just wall up and cannon up a ton. It seems to do well on maps like Bel'Shir Vestige and Daybreak but it is a little more complex on Whirlwind to defend, especially if they go Swarmhost/Corruptor/Overseer. Also, why don't zergs do that composition (Swarmhost/Corruptor/Overseer and maybe some hydras) more often? It seems so powerful. and their ability to easily snipe observers makes it even more strong. I don't think I have won against it yet, and the one time I did they switched into mutas and I just died. Luckily I don't face it much right now, most seem to go roach/hydra still which is easy to hold off with stargate into fast third into storm/charge. I've beaten a few Master level zergs with that basic game plan. My PvZ is sitting at something like 85% right now. My PvP makes up for that though, it is sitting below 30%. Here's my question: how do you deal with lategame viking/marauder/hellbat/ghost compositions? Standard Protoss colossus and templar builds get absolutely ravaged by it. The only thing I can think of is mass voidray/phoenix or perhaps tempest/phoenix or maybe even carrier/voidray or something because all ground-based compositions seem to straight up die versus it. The game I faced it I went archon/immortal/high templar and did speed prism zealot/DT harass (which I got him wittled down to 30 workers because he was actually really bad. Had he played any style I had seen he would have been dead. I was up 2 bases and probably 30-40 workers when he attacked) but he turtled to 200/200 of this composition and walked over my army with carpet bombing of EMPs.
Would it be possible to get one of ur replays against a zerg?
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On March 27 2013 22:06 Villelejonet wrote:
Hello, Im having trouble against macro zerg and I dont know when to take my third as a protoss. Do anyone have a nice replay or a nice build order?
A normal third would be between 11:00 - 11:30. Don't take it later.
You could also work on a build with a quick third usually around 8:00. The zerg will either try to deny the quick third or expand even more, so take a good look out.
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On March 27 2013 16:53 trias_e wrote:
I'm entirely new to protoss, playing at a high plat level right now. Just curious if blink stalker openings instantly lose to 4 gate. Also, if blink stalker should beat stargate if both players play well, because right now I have no idea if that's actually the case.
A blink stalker opening doesn't have to lose to a four-gate as long as you know the timing of a 4-gate push and are able to warp enough sentry's delaying the 4 gate and eventually winning on tech and economy.
I also don't think stargate is a instant lose to a blink opening as long as you can defend and get the right units out to defend.
As long as you forcefield your ramp and get more tech / units you can make a stargate work against blink. If your reaction time is good, you can forcefield the ramp constantly and pick of a few units if possible, while getting the tech / economy going.
Usually against a blink player you just want to expand and the right tech, so that you will not lose to a basetrade scenario.
(Sorry admin I could have quoted this in my previous post).
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On March 27 2013 23:41 Gianttt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 22:06 Villelejonet wrote:
Hello, Im having trouble against macro zerg and I dont know when to take my third as a protoss. Do anyone have a nice replay or a nice build order? A normal third would be between 11:00 - 11:30. Don't take it later. You could also work on a build with a quick third usually around 8:00. The zerg will either try to deny the quick third or expand even more, so take a good look out. Yes if you are taking a fast third you have to scout like a madman or you are dead (and never be afraid of cancelling it. If they are pressuring enough to force a cancel then they will be slowed down economically so you should be able to keep up as long as you kept up good probe production. The most common response I have seen so far is mass roach or mass ling to force a cancel, both of which are quite manageable, if they go lings, get oracles, if they go roach pump out voidrays like a madman and delay them with sentries and walls to stop the roaches from targeting the nexus. Voidrays absolutely devour roaches when the charge up spell is activated). I use 4 phoenixes for scouting since also lets me easily snipe queens. If they go spire then expand and throw down a second stargate and you should be safe. as long as you wall off well to prevent a speedling runby, which most good zergs will try to do while they poke with mutas since they assume your main focus will be the mutas.
On March 27 2013 23:28 Villelejonet wrote:
Would it be possible to get one of ur replays against a zerg?
I'll see if I have any good ones when I get home. I know I have one where I had to reactively change plans and not go for fast nexus against a mid-Master Zerg who was going for a 3 base fast roach/hydra bust from yesterday that can help with the basic idea of zealot/HT-based armies and how they are used (along with how potent it can be against roach/hydra). I also have an older one from a game on Daybreak that shows fast third into air/HT against Zerg but I will have to see how it is (Though I am more concerned about showing how you can take fast thirds rather than how the game plays out after that). I played a few PvZs on Daybreak that all played out the same but in a couple cases the zerg was really bad so it would not have been a strong example because I basically rolled them. There is a couple others I will look at. I have mostly been playing PvP and PvT the past few days so I don't have a lot of good PvZ replays with my current style. I just started doing this like a week ago.
The composition is based off what Nony uses so I would recommend checking out his stream or VODs to get a good idea of how the composition forms. He obviously opens very differently (he always gateway expands whereas I forge expand most games, though sometimes I do also gateway expand since it is so much safer now thanks to the mothership core) but he has shown on his stream the power of charge zealot/HT quite a bit. It is weak versus Swarmhost-based compositions because of how much locusts devour zealots but is fairly safe versus roach/hydra and thanks to fast storm seems good enough at delaying mutas until you can get enough phoenixes out to safely deal with that composition.
HOTS is so good. I have been having so much fun, even when I lose. PvZ doesn't seem like such a stupid matchup now because both sides have very potent strategies and PvT is challenging but also a ton of fun. I have yet to face a proper meching Terran since release (I did during beta a couple times and those were crazy games complete with carriers and other such units).
I faced a couple really strange all-ins yesterday. The first was a one-base marine/marauder/thor all-in off 25 SCVs (the thor was to break forcefields) from a master Terran yesterday that seemed kinda insane. I thought he would be going for Marine/Marauder (maybe mine or hellbat too) mass drop so I went phoenixes but because I didn't scout well I lost. Had I seen the thors I would have made voidrays instead and would have likely easily held it. I had 10 supply of useless phoenixes that could have been voidrays. the second all-in was CC first into reactored marines (no stim) and multiple factories of tanks just pumped across the map on Star Station. It was a tricky one because that map is not too hard to be contained on. I attacked him mid-map to slow him down and I think I would have won had I done a better job. I unnecessarily lost stalkers. It was a really neat build either way.
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EPT
