EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 31
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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aznheat80
United States186 Posts
On March 28 2013 21:21 Teoita wrote: You can fast expand into robo easily. See rsvp's replays on dealing with stargate in the last few pages, they are very interesting games. Stargate based expands are superior to robo based expands in nearly every aspect. It allows more potential for harassment. It'ss safe against every opening that the opposing player can do and it leads to a much stronger mid-late game army. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Plus stargate mirrors are annoying pieces of shit to play. | ||
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aznheat80
United States186 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
As far as 2gate robo, immortal expand type builds, i agree. There's better options out there. | ||
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cvgHuShang
Canada95 Posts
On March 29 2013 00:16 aznheat80 wrote: I was referring to his question "Is it viable to go robo-based expands?", which means that he goes robo, then expands. Opening stargate into expand > opening robo into expand. He said expand 'into' robo which means he's expanding before his robo. This isn't weaker than a stargate opening. What arguing against is a robo before expand but that isn't what he said  | ||
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aznheat80
United States186 Posts
On March 29 2013 00:18 cvgHuShang wrote: He said expand 'into' robo which means he's expanding before his robo. This isn't weaker than a stargate opening. What arguing against is a robo before expand but that isn't what he said When I see the phrase "robo-based expands", I just assume robo into expand haha. :D | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
It seems to me that, very often, a Zerg player can just mass Hydra Roach and attack into a 3 base P with Airtoss and simply kill him. I often don't have Storm by that point, and my Void Rays are just starting to come out about 3 at a time. Is this a symptom of not having enough immortals, Storm, or what? Any suggestions? Thanks TL. Looking forward to discussing this. | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On March 29 2013 00:48 Nuclease wrote: Hey everyone, I have a question to ask on the subject of Airtoss in PvZ. It seems to me that, very often, a Zerg player can just mass Hydra Roach and attack into a 3 base P with Airtoss and simply kill him. I often don't have Storm by that point, and my Void Rays are just starting to come out about 3 at a time. Is this a symptom of not having enough immortals, Storm, or what? Any suggestions? Thanks TL. Looking forward to discussing this. In old school airtoss you'd have enough phoenixes + cannons and a mothership to cloak to hold that off. I'd assume that nowadays you'd have more voids, and a couple of oracles mixed in to deal obscene damage to the hydras. That, and cannons, lots and lots of cannons. | ||
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SaetZero
United States855 Posts
league: diamond, but getting matched vs masters sometimes ======== pvt: basic gameplan is oracle harass early, upgraded gateway units with light phoenix midgame, into gateway units/templar/some kind of air dps unit (usually oracle) i open gate - gas - pylon - core - gate - gas - CB'd stalker - stargate - zealot production until 1 oracle hits the board - stop producing from SG and go on zealot stalker. move the army to pressure his natural while the oracle harasses where he can. take my natural. mid game goal is 4-5 gates - 1 forge doing CB'd upgrades (armor armor weapons) and get air weapons 1 - 1 stargate to get me 2-3 phoenixs, then take my 3rd when i feel safe. on 3 base, get charge, storm, air weapons 2, ground armor 3 weapons 2 shields 1, move up to 7-9 gates, and add a few oracles or some other air-to-ground dps stargate unit. add a robo for obs/prism. at whatever point if terran looks weak, i attack when i can. otherwise i attack when my upgrades finish (hopefully at 150-180 supply) worries with this idea: --early 1 base rax based all ins: if i see it with the oracle, i can usually defend but not sure if thatll always be the case. --early tech plays: havent seen any terran do this yet, whether it be widow mines or cloak banshee. i think my oracle would spot banshee in time to get forge/cannons up but unsure of timing. --cc first into bunkers/turrets: havent seen it, not sure if i could break that early. maybe just oracle/voidray 3-4 gate all in it? ========= pvz: basic gameplan: dt expand, deny his third early, upgraded zealot archon with a few phoenix midgame, zealot archon templar into colossi or tempest late game. open: gate - gas - pylon - gas - core - gate - stalker - TC - zealot and stalker - DT shrine - 2 dts - expand mid game : deny his third until i can take mine safely, stargate for a few phoenix (more if i see spire), 1 forge working on weapons/shields upgrades, get charge, 5-6 gates. after i get my third, either storm/colossi/void rays, up to 9 gates, push with zealot, archon, dt, stalker, 2 or 3 splashed unit (ht, colo, VR) into his 4th base. push earlier if he tries for a fast 5th (push the 4th, send a few units to the 5th) worries: --2 base roach push (havent seen it, but not sure how zealot/archon before charge finished would do.) --mutas before i get 2 phoenix (i dont think it would be an issue, and my dts would prob do tons of damage in this case, but who knows) --swarm host? (havent seen, no idea how strong this would be) --3 base roach hydra push if i cant deny his 3rd (happened before, dunno what to do to survive... maybe fast colossi and say fuck the phoenix?) side note: i dont like forge fe, that suggestion will be ignored (sorry :D). i like evening the game thru my damage, not a earlier expo ========== any input would be appreciated ^^ thank you | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
PvZ: not a big fan of fast DT (especially DT expand type stuff) in this matchup tbh and going straight into zealot/archon means he can do tons of damage with a roach timing. Overall, imo the best build is stargate/4gate/robo expand into colossus/stalker, eventually adding voids and storm. | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
On March 29 2013 01:25 Teoita wrote: PvT: study Mc's stargate build at MLG, he had a bunch of different followups vs 1rax fe, react/fact/widow mine expand and fast widow mine drops, including a couple of templar games. PvZ: not a big fan of fast DT (especially DT expand type stuff) in this matchup tbh and going straight into zealot/archon means he can do tons of damage with a roach timing. Overall, imo the best build is stargate/4gate/robo expand into colossus/stalker, eventually adding voids and storm. Now, I'm going to assume from your post for clarity to the asker of the question that when you say Stargate/4gate/robo expand you mean expand into a third? Probably around 8-10 minutes depending on pressure? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
On March 29 2013 01:05 ThaReckoning wrote: In old school airtoss you'd have enough phoenixes + cannons and a mothership to cloak to hold that off. I'd assume that nowadays you'd have more voids, and a couple of oracles mixed in to deal obscene damage to the hydras. That, and cannons, lots and lots of cannons. Right now you're telling me what I already have, not what I SHOULD have. In my experience, if they go for REALLY hard macro hatch plus three base Roach/Hydra composition and then push, there is very little my Voids can do to that army. Of course, they are nice against roaches, but the Hydras can just pull back again and again if my Voids overcharge, wait, and then come in a kill enerything I have. If I focus too heavily on voids, I don't have anything that trades well against Roach/Hydra because I don't have enough gas. Maybe faster gas and a focus on Storm would help? | ||
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SaetZero
United States855 Posts
ill have to rewatch mc's games though, didnt catch most of his stuff at mlg cuz i had other players i wanted to watch while he was playing | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
On March 29 2013 01:30 Teoita wrote: Yeah ofc, did you think i meant off 1base? No no no, I just wanted to clarify since this thread is supposed to be for noobs. A little specificity never hurts.  | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
On March 29 2013 01:33 SaetZero wrote: more looking at advice to tweak the current ideas, not scrap them for something i can xcopy from a pro player, but thank you. ill keep in mind ^^ i can just watch pro vods and copy, but i like having my own style ^^ hopefully thats understandable ill have to rewatch mc's games though, didnt catch most of his stuff at mlg cuz i had other players i wanted to watch while he was playing This isn't really a good way to look at things. Taking advice from MC based on his games isn't copying a pro player, it's watching how he employs certain timings, units, and strats in order to augment your own style. You're not obligated to copy him, just watch how he uses everything in his builds. EDIT: I should point out that your style encompasses a LOT of what MC does with his builds, which makes them perfect to take things from. Don't be afraid to use a few of his really nice strats in those games, specifically versus Bomber I believe were his most impressive games. | ||
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SaetZero
United States855 Posts
in pvz he basically said your idea isnt the best, heres the best, and thats all. get what i mean now? | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
On March 29 2013 01:37 SaetZero wrote: meant more about the pvz suggestion, mc did oracle plays in pvt, i remember that, so thats something i should look at, i agree there ^^ in pvz he basically said your idea isnt the best, heres the best, and thats all. get what i mean now? Ah, yes. I think though that if you present an idea, the best you can hope for is the personal reaction to it from some of the better players on TL (teoita being one of them, myself not so much I think ).In general, I do think that DTs lack efficacy in PvZ, mainly because Spore Crawlers are the counter for the most popular type of play right now (Stargate) so it's highly likely that your opponent will be prepared to react to your play. Moreover, fast layer is definitely in the meta right now so you'll be in trouble if they can get overseers very quickly. All in all, if your idea isn't the best, it isn't the best. If it's broke, you can't necessarily fix it. In general though, MC actually has some really cool DT games (I get the irony of that statement ). | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
Mutas come in a huge pack out of the blue and rape probes, pick you apart by taking down buildings everywhere, and own colossi which is theoretically the response to roach hydra from what I've seen so far. Cannons take a while to build and just don't seem to cut it depending on the muta count. Mutas have superb mobility now and blink stalkers can hardly keep up with them. I thought geting fast HTs may help, but that probably wouldn't cut it against a roach hydra army, and even if it does, it definitely wouldn't in case my zerg opponent got swarm hosts. As for PvP, I have no idea how to open safely. First, you need to account for very aggressive builds such as 4 gates (even if they're slightly delayed). Then, there is the threat of dts. So if you're going stargate, you must (1) be sure you can survive a 4 gate or pressure build without delaying your stargate much, otherwise you will have less phoenixes in stargate mirror and lose, (2) be ready for dts based on limited information or risk losing the game if you skip an oracle, which again would put you behind in the phoenix count in case of stargate mirror, and (3) if you account for all these things just to be on the safe side, you'll probably be too far behind against a somewhat early expand build. It feels very hard to account for so many possibilities without putting yourself too far behind. | ||
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