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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
PvZ question, I recently have been having a long lose streak to Zergs where we have our initial engagement, but the remax of a hard tech switch just kills me off. Despite having 3-4 base econ, I cannot win when Zerg can insta-remax of a composition that hard-counters what comp I had in the initial engagement.
For example I initally see muta ling, so I make phoenix colossus zealot. We have out 1st engagement, I kill off his army with a few colossus and phoenix left over, I reinforce with more colossus and some gateway units, nothing out of the ordinary I assume. Then the remax comes of mass ultra and ling, and I get rofl-stomped. That was 1 recent game where I was completely lost as to what I could have done.
Another example was roach hydra vs colossus, vr and gateway units. I won the initial engagement, had some vrs and colossus left over, and then the remax of roach hydra with a bunch of ultras mixed in killed me off.
My question is, even with a decent economy, can toss actually react fast enough to have the appropriate units to counter the zerg's remax? If so how do you all do it? Do I need to be more aggressive early game and try to put the Z behind early? Is there a certain composition that covers most of the bases? I am mainly losing to mass ultra-remaxes. Please help tyvm!
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On March 26 2013 15:00 aznheat80 wrote:
PvZ question.How do you stop a 2-base nydus with swarmhosts and queens? I feel like the swarmhosts can break down your wall so fast and cannons aren't very helpful.
you have a replay?
i havent been hit by that specific strategy myself, but i would think you need to rush to colossus in order to deal with the swarmhosts or manuever around the army.
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On March 26 2013 13:06 Kim Hyuna wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 12:52 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 12:11 Kim Hyuna wrote:On March 26 2013 11:28 SwizzY wrote:
Question in PvP: If I fail to scout my opponent, he turtles up and gets 8-9 VR with speedlots while I went stalker/colossus, am I just fucked? That's how I felt every time we fought out in the open since his VR just shredded my 4 colossus which opened up my stalkers to speedlot attacks.
What's a good way to combat a VR build. More VR? VRs and more VRs. VR Stargate opening has been deadly in PvP recently. I always opt for 1 Gate > 1 Stargate < 2x more gate and expand safely with around 3 VRs. Storm actually does pretty well against VR, especially towards late game once armies get bigger. Mid game zealot/stalker/archon does ok as well. I saw PuCk did exactly the above (storm, chargelots, archon, stalkers) going against mass VR/Gateway built and was pretty owned badly. Gateway units are way too slow to react against harassment or securing 3rd. I do agreed storm/archon did pretty well against such composition but good splitting of VRs and micro make pure Gateway pretty useless. At the current state of game, skytoss is pretty much a need.
While I do agree with you that proper micro makes a big difference, I have to disagree with you that gateway units are "slow to react against harassment or securing 3rd." Gateway armies are more mobile and thus you can get better map control with them, which also allows you to expand faster. The only time skytoss is more mobile or can harass is early game when you have phoenix and your opponent doesn't have blink - which is a situation that easily disappears by mid game. Another advantage of gateway armies is that they're easily remade, unlike void rays - you lose your void rays, and you lose the game.
Here's some replays - they're not the best examples, and I often lose the big battles, but due to my higher mobility and how easily replaceable my army is, I'm usually able to whittle down the void ray army and eventually win.
http://drop.sc/313849 - gateway vs big void army
http://drop.sc/313848 - gateway/colossus vs void/archon/zeal
http://drop.sc/313847 - gateway vs void/immo/zeal/stalker
http://drop.sc/313846 - gateway vs void/colossus/gateway
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On March 26 2013 13:38 Nokitch wrote:Hey, so I just registered just to get some feedback/help on this. Just some back story; I was against a terran and ever since watching Grubby's streams, I have wanted to try a proxy stargate with oracles. Everything worked fine when I was killing his SCVs when he counter attacked. I went to my base and he had ~10-12 marauders and as you can see in the replay, I had nothing to defend against it. I also never did scout after the initial scout but when I saw his early gas, I thought he would go reapers which was why I CB'ed the stalker. Now this is the first time I have ever encountered this. So what would be the right way to counter his 3Rax Marauder because that looked really intimidating. Replay: http://drop.sc/313831
Your problem as you may have guessed is poor scouting. The best way to scout after your initial probe is to do a zealot/stalker poke (possibly with MSC as well). Additionally, instead of waiting for 2 oracles, send your first 1 to scout/harass (and make sure it's chrono'd!). Even with the limited scouting you had that game, your first stalker met an early marauder at the watchtower which should have given something away. Most terrans don't make early marauders unless they are planning some sort of early aggression.
The best way to deal with any sort of 1 base barracks pressure is with sentries and forcefields. Since you went stargate, a void ray would have helped too especially since he didn't even have any marines. Also a MSC would have definitely helped, again not only since he didn't have marines but also for the planetary nexus.
Lastly, your macro was a bit poor, when he attacked you have 800 min/400 gas. Even if you had just used that to make additional zealots/stalkers you might have been able to hold.
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On March 26 2013 15:00 aznheat80 wrote:
PvZ question.How do you stop a 2-base nydus with swarmhosts and queens? I feel like the swarmhosts can break down your wall so fast and cannons aren't very helpful.
I usually go with a double robo colossus all in on 2 base when I scout that build. Zerg's economy is hindered too much by the rush to SH that you can just roll them over after you break out of it. It times out nicely because I have some minerals floating and need the gas for the double colossus production, and the contain isn't so hard that you can't get out of it with 2 colossi.
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On March 26 2013 15:54 Chaser808 wrote:
PvZ question, I recently have been having a long lose streak to Zergs where we have our initial engagement, but the remax of a hard tech switch just kills me off. Despite having 3-4 base econ, I cannot win when Zerg can insta-remax of a composition that hard-counters what comp I had in the initial engagement.
For example I initally see muta ling, so I make phoenix colossus zealot. We have out 1st engagement, I kill off his army with a few colossus and phoenix left over, I reinforce with more colossus and some gateway units, nothing out of the ordinary I assume. Then the remax comes of mass ultra and ling, and I get rofl-stomped. That was 1 recent game where I was completely lost as to what I could have done.
Another example was roach hydra vs colossus, vr and gateway units. I won the initial engagement, had some vrs and colossus left over, and then the remax of roach hydra with a bunch of ultras mixed in killed me off.
My question is, even with a decent economy, can toss actually react fast enough to have the appropriate units to counter the zerg's remax? If so how do you all do it? Do I need to be more aggressive early game and try to put the Z behind early? Is there a certain composition that covers most of the bases? I am mainly losing to mass ultra-remaxes. Please help tyvm!
Post the replay so we can help.
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On March 26 2013 16:09 recklessfire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 15:00 aznheat80 wrote:
PvZ question.How do you stop a 2-base nydus with swarmhosts and queens? I feel like the swarmhosts can break down your wall so fast and cannons aren't very helpful. you have a replay? i havent been hit by that specific strategy myself, but i would think you need to rush to colossus in order to deal with the swarmhosts or manuever around the army.
I am going to post every replay I am facing these Zerg 2 Base against me. Till I know how to beat this...
http://drop.sc/313855
It was my first game today. I lost horrible and played horrible.
I scouted no 3 base and later on the infestation pit. So I was pretty early sure he is going for SH.
Sadly I did horrible and was hard supply blocked when the locus took done my wall, so my warprism wasnt able to do any damage.
On top I tried to get Colossi out after the warp prism and observer.
on top. Why are 5 queens able to stop mass zelots from doing any damage?
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Im plat player, please check this 1v1 PvZ game. What i have done wrong. How I have lost?
My phoenix micro is bad, I was not able to take 3th.
Open for suggestions.
http://drop.sc/313865
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On March 14 2013 02:46 Teoita wrote:
Please use this thread for your Protoss HotS questions while we come up with a new OP!
well I am done. I stop playing till the next balance fix.
Swarmhost 2 base and often Muta builds are just over powerd. I just can't handle them no matter how hard to try.
While PvP and PvT is a lot of fun, PvZ again drives me crazy.
I really don't know how to effectiv counter them.
Ban for that.
User was warned for this post
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On March 26 2013 20:08 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 16:40 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 13:06 Kim Hyuna wrote:On March 26 2013 12:52 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 12:11 Kim Hyuna wrote:On March 26 2013 11:28 SwizzY wrote:
Question in PvP: If I fail to scout my opponent, he turtles up and gets 8-9 VR with speedlots while I went stalker/colossus, am I just fucked? That's how I felt every time we fought out in the open since his VR just shredded my 4 colossus which opened up my stalkers to speedlot attacks.
What's a good way to combat a VR build. More VR? VRs and more VRs. VR Stargate opening has been deadly in PvP recently. I always opt for 1 Gate > 1 Stargate < 2x more gate and expand safely with around 3 VRs. Storm actually does pretty well against VR, especially towards late game once armies get bigger. Mid game zealot/stalker/archon does ok as well. I saw PuCk did exactly the above (storm, chargelots, archon, stalkers) going against mass VR/Gateway built and was pretty owned badly. Gateway units are way too slow to react against harassment or securing 3rd. I do agreed storm/archon did pretty well against such composition but good splitting of VRs and micro make pure Gateway pretty useless. At the current state of game, skytoss is pretty much a need. While I do agree with you that proper micro makes a big difference, I have to disagree with you that gateway units are "slow to react against harassment or securing 3rd." Gateway armies are more mobile and thus you can get better map control with them, which also allows you to expand faster. The only time skytoss is more mobile or can harass is early game when you have phoenix and your opponent doesn't have blink - which is a situation that easily disappears by mid game. Another advantage of gateway armies is that they're easily remade, unlike void rays - you lose your void rays, and you lose the game. Here's some replays - they're not the best examples, and I often lose the big battles, but due to my higher mobility and how easily replaceable my army is, I'm usually able to whittle down the void ray army and eventually win. http://drop.sc/313849 - gateway vs big void army http://drop.sc/313848 - gateway/colossus vs void/archon/zeal http://drop.sc/313847 - gateway vs void/immo/zeal/stalker http://drop.sc/313846 - gateway vs void/colossus/gateway Since I open Dark Templar Expand quite a lot in PvP (when I intend to macro), I was trying Chargelot/Archon/Templar against Skytoss a lot during the beta (I've not really been able to play since release; I moved and don't have a reliable internet connection yet) and I only consistently won against players who didn't split their Skytoss army up properly. I feel like it's really hard to win with a Chargelot/Archon/Temlar composition against a Protoss opponent who knows what they're doing. Mass Void Rays just melt through armies so quickly, even when they're fighting enemies that they don't deal bonus damage against! That said, I am pretty bad at harassment and forcing engagements. I'm very much one of those Protoss players who either hits a timing or sits back and macros passively, so I think that I really need to work on those two elements if I expect this composition to work for me. How important do you think harassment is to this type of composition, and what's the best way to engage Skytoss with it? I'd really like to continue opening with Dark Templar Expands since they work really well in HotS, so I kinda need to learn how to get this composition working for me!
I usually go for a 2 base timing off of 8-10 gates when blink and +1 finishes. No storm or charge yet, but I'll have 2-3 archons. If that doesn't work or he turtles too hard, then I'll try to stall his 3rd while getting my own 3rd up, and tech to storm. Just have your blink stalkers out on the map, threatening backstabs if he tries to move out. There's not much harass that you can do during the mid game while he's turtling on 2 bases/establishing his 3rd, but once it gets to late game you'll want proxy pylons and warp prisms to flood zealots into one or more of his bases as soon as he moves out.
As far as engagements go there's not much to say, I usually lead with blink stalkers to bait/get a few free shots off or maybe snipe a void ray, then go in with the rest of my army. You want to try to target fire voids with stalkers but it can be hard sometimes especially as the armies get bigger so sometimes I just a-move and focus on trying to blink back and save stalkers instead.
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On March 26 2013 21:12 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 20:35 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 20:08 Sated wrote:On March 26 2013 16:40 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 13:06 Kim Hyuna wrote:On March 26 2013 12:52 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 12:11 Kim Hyuna wrote:On March 26 2013 11:28 SwizzY wrote:
Question in PvP: If I fail to scout my opponent, he turtles up and gets 8-9 VR with speedlots while I went stalker/colossus, am I just fucked? That's how I felt every time we fought out in the open since his VR just shredded my 4 colossus which opened up my stalkers to speedlot attacks.
What's a good way to combat a VR build. More VR? VRs and more VRs. VR Stargate opening has been deadly in PvP recently. I always opt for 1 Gate > 1 Stargate < 2x more gate and expand safely with around 3 VRs. Storm actually does pretty well against VR, especially towards late game once armies get bigger. Mid game zealot/stalker/archon does ok as well. I saw PuCk did exactly the above (storm, chargelots, archon, stalkers) going against mass VR/Gateway built and was pretty owned badly. Gateway units are way too slow to react against harassment or securing 3rd. I do agreed storm/archon did pretty well against such composition but good splitting of VRs and micro make pure Gateway pretty useless. At the current state of game, skytoss is pretty much a need. While I do agree with you that proper micro makes a big difference, I have to disagree with you that gateway units are "slow to react against harassment or securing 3rd." Gateway armies are more mobile and thus you can get better map control with them, which also allows you to expand faster. The only time skytoss is more mobile or can harass is early game when you have phoenix and your opponent doesn't have blink - which is a situation that easily disappears by mid game. Another advantage of gateway armies is that they're easily remade, unlike void rays - you lose your void rays, and you lose the game. Here's some replays - they're not the best examples, and I often lose the big battles, but due to my higher mobility and how easily replaceable my army is, I'm usually able to whittle down the void ray army and eventually win. http://drop.sc/313849 - gateway vs big void army http://drop.sc/313848 - gateway/colossus vs void/archon/zeal http://drop.sc/313847 - gateway vs void/immo/zeal/stalker http://drop.sc/313846 - gateway vs void/colossus/gateway Since I open Dark Templar Expand quite a lot in PvP (when I intend to macro), I was trying Chargelot/Archon/Templar against Skytoss a lot during the beta (I've not really been able to play since release; I moved and don't have a reliable internet connection yet) and I only consistently won against players who didn't split their Skytoss army up properly. I feel like it's really hard to win with a Chargelot/Archon/Temlar composition against a Protoss opponent who knows what they're doing. Mass Void Rays just melt through armies so quickly, even when they're fighting enemies that they don't deal bonus damage against! That said, I am pretty bad at harassment and forcing engagements. I'm very much one of those Protoss players who either hits a timing or sits back and macros passively, so I think that I really need to work on those two elements if I expect this composition to work for me. How important do you think harassment is to this type of composition, and what's the best way to engage Skytoss with it? I'd really like to continue opening with Dark Templar Expands since they work really well in HotS, so I kinda need to learn how to get this composition working for me! I usually go for a 2 base timing off of 8-10 gates when blink and +1 finishes. No storm or charge yet, but I'll have 2-3 archons. If that doesn't work or he turtles too hard, then I'll try to stall his 3rd while getting my own 3rd up, and tech to storm. Just have your blink stalkers out on the map, threatening backstabs if he tries to move out. There's not much harass that you can do during the mid game while he's turtling on 2 bases/establishing his 3rd, but once it gets to late game you'll want proxy pylons and warp prisms to flood zealots into one or more of his bases as soon as he moves out. As far as engagements go there's not much to say, I usually lead with blink stalkers to bait/get a few free shots off or maybe snipe a void ray, then go in with the rest of my army. You want to try to target fire voids with stalkers but it can be hard sometimes especially as the armies get bigger so sometimes I just a-move and focus on trying to blink back and save stalkers instead. I never really had that many Stalkers when I was trying out Gateway responses to Void Ray builds. I figured that it woudn't be the best of ideas given how quickly Stalkers melt against Void Rays, but I'll have to start mixing them in. I'm guessing though that you don't open with a Dark Templar expand, so I'll watch your replays when I get home and see what's what. Not having a stable internet connection yet is killing me. Still another month until I get a proper internet connection T_T
I do DT expands a lot as well. The opening doesn't really matter. You're right in that you don't want too many stalkers (archons and HTs are better use of your gas), but you do need some. A lot of times void builds open with phoenix for harass so I end up making a decent amount in the beginning to chase them away anyway.
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With HotS, if I scout my opponent is going for a CC-first or a gasless 1 Rax FE, is there an all-in I can do in response that should virtually always kill my opponent if we're of equal skill levels? Basically, is it safe for Terran to go gasless expand in HotS even if he's scouted?
I've received several pieces of contradictory information on the matter, so I was hoping to get it cleared up once and for all.
And if there is an all-in I should do in response, what's the build order?
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On March 26 2013 21:53 Salivanth wrote:
With HotS, if I scout my opponent is going for a CC-first or a gasless 1 Rax FE, is there an all-in I can do in response that should virtually always kill my opponent if we're of equal skill levels? Basically, is it safe for Terran to go gasless expand in HotS even if he's scouted?
I've received several pieces of contradictory information on the matter, so I was hoping to get it cleared up once and for all.
And if there is an all-in I should do in response, what's the build order?
Nope, there's no such 100% guaranteed all-in (or even close). Gasless expand is still a safe and standard build.
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On March 26 2013 21:23 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 21:12 Sated wrote:On March 26 2013 20:35 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 20:08 Sated wrote:On March 26 2013 16:40 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 13:06 Kim Hyuna wrote:On March 26 2013 12:52 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 12:11 Kim Hyuna wrote:On March 26 2013 11:28 SwizzY wrote:
Question in PvP: If I fail to scout my opponent, he turtles up and gets 8-9 VR with speedlots while I went stalker/colossus, am I just fucked? That's how I felt every time we fought out in the open since his VR just shredded my 4 colossus which opened up my stalkers to speedlot attacks.
What's a good way to combat a VR build. More VR? VRs and more VRs. VR Stargate opening has been deadly in PvP recently. I always opt for 1 Gate > 1 Stargate < 2x more gate and expand safely with around 3 VRs. Storm actually does pretty well against VR, especially towards late game once armies get bigger. Mid game zealot/stalker/archon does ok as well. I saw PuCk did exactly the above (storm, chargelots, archon, stalkers) going against mass VR/Gateway built and was pretty owned badly. Gateway units are way too slow to react against harassment or securing 3rd. I do agreed storm/archon did pretty well against such composition but good splitting of VRs and micro make pure Gateway pretty useless. At the current state of game, skytoss is pretty much a need. While I do agree with you that proper micro makes a big difference, I have to disagree with you that gateway units are "slow to react against harassment or securing 3rd." Gateway armies are more mobile and thus you can get better map control with them, which also allows you to expand faster. The only time skytoss is more mobile or can harass is early game when you have phoenix and your opponent doesn't have blink - which is a situation that easily disappears by mid game. Another advantage of gateway armies is that they're easily remade, unlike void rays - you lose your void rays, and you lose the game. Here's some replays - they're not the best examples, and I often lose the big battles, but due to my higher mobility and how easily replaceable my army is, I'm usually able to whittle down the void ray army and eventually win. http://drop.sc/313849 - gateway vs big void army http://drop.sc/313848 - gateway/colossus vs void/archon/zeal http://drop.sc/313847 - gateway vs void/immo/zeal/stalker http://drop.sc/313846 - gateway vs void/colossus/gateway Since I open Dark Templar Expand quite a lot in PvP (when I intend to macro), I was trying Chargelot/Archon/Templar against Skytoss a lot during the beta (I've not really been able to play since release; I moved and don't have a reliable internet connection yet) and I only consistently won against players who didn't split their Skytoss army up properly. I feel like it's really hard to win with a Chargelot/Archon/Temlar composition against a Protoss opponent who knows what they're doing. Mass Void Rays just melt through armies so quickly, even when they're fighting enemies that they don't deal bonus damage against! That said, I am pretty bad at harassment and forcing engagements. I'm very much one of those Protoss players who either hits a timing or sits back and macros passively, so I think that I really need to work on those two elements if I expect this composition to work for me. How important do you think harassment is to this type of composition, and what's the best way to engage Skytoss with it? I'd really like to continue opening with Dark Templar Expands since they work really well in HotS, so I kinda need to learn how to get this composition working for me! I usually go for a 2 base timing off of 8-10 gates when blink and +1 finishes. No storm or charge yet, but I'll have 2-3 archons. If that doesn't work or he turtles too hard, then I'll try to stall his 3rd while getting my own 3rd up, and tech to storm. Just have your blink stalkers out on the map, threatening backstabs if he tries to move out. There's not much harass that you can do during the mid game while he's turtling on 2 bases/establishing his 3rd, but once it gets to late game you'll want proxy pylons and warp prisms to flood zealots into one or more of his bases as soon as he moves out. As far as engagements go there's not much to say, I usually lead with blink stalkers to bait/get a few free shots off or maybe snipe a void ray, then go in with the rest of my army. You want to try to target fire voids with stalkers but it can be hard sometimes especially as the armies get bigger so sometimes I just a-move and focus on trying to blink back and save stalkers instead. I never really had that many Stalkers when I was trying out Gateway responses to Void Ray builds. I figured that it woudn't be the best of ideas given how quickly Stalkers melt against Void Rays, but I'll have to start mixing them in. I'm guessing though that you don't open with a Dark Templar expand, so I'll watch your replays when I get home and see what's what. Not having a stable internet connection yet is killing me. Still another month until I get a proper internet connection T_T I do DT expands a lot as well. The opening doesn't really matter. You're right in that you don't want too many stalkers (archons and HTs are better use of your gas), but you do need some. A lot of times void builds open with phoenix for harass so I end up making a decent amount in the beginning to chase them away anyway.
Im quite curious of this DT expand (started playing hots 3 days ago), as I have usually gone stargate. So you make a few stalkers in the beginning to fend off phoenix/oracle harrass, then how do you use your DT's? Is it for defense against ground army, seeing he can only rely on oracles for detection? Are you DT FE so that you can make a midpush with HT/archons/few_leftover_stalkers and chargelots for the mineral dump?
It just seems a bit risky seeing if the game is not ended fairly mid, he will have a few tempests to pick your base off. I guess you want to control the pace, forcing his army away from your base. Some maps, where he spawns close to you, its so easy for him to fly his army over to pick at your base, then if you push back, he is there to defend.
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On March 26 2013 22:15 crappen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 21:23 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 21:12 Sated wrote:On March 26 2013 20:35 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 20:08 Sated wrote:On March 26 2013 16:40 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 13:06 Kim Hyuna wrote:On March 26 2013 12:52 rsvp wrote:On March 26 2013 12:11 Kim Hyuna wrote:On March 26 2013 11:28 SwizzY wrote:
Question in PvP: If I fail to scout my opponent, he turtles up and gets 8-9 VR with speedlots while I went stalker/colossus, am I just fucked? That's how I felt every time we fought out in the open since his VR just shredded my 4 colossus which opened up my stalkers to speedlot attacks.
What's a good way to combat a VR build. More VR? VRs and more VRs. VR Stargate opening has been deadly in PvP recently. I always opt for 1 Gate > 1 Stargate < 2x more gate and expand safely with around 3 VRs. Storm actually does pretty well against VR, especially towards late game once armies get bigger. Mid game zealot/stalker/archon does ok as well. I saw PuCk did exactly the above (storm, chargelots, archon, stalkers) going against mass VR/Gateway built and was pretty owned badly. Gateway units are way too slow to react against harassment or securing 3rd. I do agreed storm/archon did pretty well against such composition but good splitting of VRs and micro make pure Gateway pretty useless. At the current state of game, skytoss is pretty much a need. While I do agree with you that proper micro makes a big difference, I have to disagree with you that gateway units are "slow to react against harassment or securing 3rd." Gateway armies are more mobile and thus you can get better map control with them, which also allows you to expand faster. The only time skytoss is more mobile or can harass is early game when you have phoenix and your opponent doesn't have blink - which is a situation that easily disappears by mid game. Another advantage of gateway armies is that they're easily remade, unlike void rays - you lose your void rays, and you lose the game. Here's some replays - they're not the best examples, and I often lose the big battles, but due to my higher mobility and how easily replaceable my army is, I'm usually able to whittle down the void ray army and eventually win. http://drop.sc/313849 - gateway vs big void army http://drop.sc/313848 - gateway/colossus vs void/archon/zeal http://drop.sc/313847 - gateway vs void/immo/zeal/stalker http://drop.sc/313846 - gateway vs void/colossus/gateway Since I open Dark Templar Expand quite a lot in PvP (when I intend to macro), I was trying Chargelot/Archon/Templar against Skytoss a lot during the beta (I've not really been able to play since release; I moved and don't have a reliable internet connection yet) and I only consistently won against players who didn't split their Skytoss army up properly. I feel like it's really hard to win with a Chargelot/Archon/Temlar composition against a Protoss opponent who knows what they're doing. Mass Void Rays just melt through armies so quickly, even when they're fighting enemies that they don't deal bonus damage against! That said, I am pretty bad at harassment and forcing engagements. I'm very much one of those Protoss players who either hits a timing or sits back and macros passively, so I think that I really need to work on those two elements if I expect this composition to work for me. How important do you think harassment is to this type of composition, and what's the best way to engage Skytoss with it? I'd really like to continue opening with Dark Templar Expands since they work really well in HotS, so I kinda need to learn how to get this composition working for me! I usually go for a 2 base timing off of 8-10 gates when blink and +1 finishes. No storm or charge yet, but I'll have 2-3 archons. If that doesn't work or he turtles too hard, then I'll try to stall his 3rd while getting my own 3rd up, and tech to storm. Just have your blink stalkers out on the map, threatening backstabs if he tries to move out. There's not much harass that you can do during the mid game while he's turtling on 2 bases/establishing his 3rd, but once it gets to late game you'll want proxy pylons and warp prisms to flood zealots into one or more of his bases as soon as he moves out. As far as engagements go there's not much to say, I usually lead with blink stalkers to bait/get a few free shots off or maybe snipe a void ray, then go in with the rest of my army. You want to try to target fire voids with stalkers but it can be hard sometimes especially as the armies get bigger so sometimes I just a-move and focus on trying to blink back and save stalkers instead. I never really had that many Stalkers when I was trying out Gateway responses to Void Ray builds. I figured that it woudn't be the best of ideas given how quickly Stalkers melt against Void Rays, but I'll have to start mixing them in. I'm guessing though that you don't open with a Dark Templar expand, so I'll watch your replays when I get home and see what's what. Not having a stable internet connection yet is killing me. Still another month until I get a proper internet connection T_T I do DT expands a lot as well. The opening doesn't really matter. You're right in that you don't want too many stalkers (archons and HTs are better use of your gas), but you do need some. A lot of times void builds open with phoenix for harass so I end up making a decent amount in the beginning to chase them away anyway. Im quite curious of this DT expand (started playing hots 3 days ago), as I have usually gone stargate. So you make a few stalkers in the beginning to fend off phoenix/oracle harrass, then how do you use your DT's? Is it for defense against ground army, seeing he can only rely on oracles for detection? Are you DT FE so that you can make a midpush with HT/archons/few_leftover_stalkers and chargelots for the mineral dump? It just seems a bit risky seeing if the game is not ended fairly mid, he will have a few tempests to pick your base off. I guess you want to control the pace, forcing his army away from your base. Some maps, where he spawns close to you, its so easy for him to fly his army over to pick at your base, then if you push back, he is there to defend.
The DTs come much earlier than that. I open with the double gas build and go 1 gate twilight -> dt shrine. Obviously if I scout something like a 4 gate I won't do this, but with my gateway making zealot - sentry - zealot (no chronos) I can easily hold off a 3 stalker rush. I add a second gateway, and as my DTs are about to be ready I get a robo + expo. I do what damage I can, and the fact that he can't have detection both at home and at my base means I'll at least have some time to safely establish my natural even if he has detection at home. Once my natural is up and running I can transition into whatever I want.
I'm not sure what your talking about for the mid game, blink stalkers are faster than voids or tempests so you shouldn't have mobility issues. And I've never seen tempests being used in PvP, if your opponent is teching to tempests you should be able to just go and kill him (such as with stalker/zealot/archon).
Here are 2 quick examples I found, both are against stargate openers. A lot of people say stargate openers counter DTs because of oracles, but that simply isn't true. While I did get a bit lucky these games, even if say my opponent had an oracle ready at home when my DT hit and I do no damage, I'd still have an expansion behind it and the game would either be even or in my advantage.
http://drop.sc/313918
http://drop.sc/313919
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Since RSVP seems to be answering questions today, I'll chime in with two of my own regarding PvT.
1. It seems as if nexus first or very early nexus builds are very unsafe, due to the amount of damage a terran can do with widow mines ect off of one gas early. Therefore, I tend to go stargate at 28 (probe scout to confirm after 13 gate). The Idea is i can chrono a stalker for reaper defense and use a mothership core and other stalkers to either harass or just confirm expansion or tech, Meanwhile, I'll have an oracle to deal with any widowmine shenanigans, and if they don't seem to be coming, I can send the intial oracle to harass or make a 2nd one.
My main dilemma is that in order to get the startgate at 28, along with getting a few stalkers and researching wg, this forces me to take an early 2nd gas around 16. If i see the terran took his 1 gas, but then decided to quickly get his natural up, am I just plain behind no matter what unless he has poor reflexes vs my oracle harass? Or is there a more frugal way to still play conservative, and get a decent expansion timing up, without being so vulnerable to early game pressure?
2. Even after your first base scout of the terran early mid-game, they may only have a 1-1-1 up. At this point though, you are usually laying the groundwork for a specific army type, or still building stalkers, while the terran could still be going bio or mech. When they do go mech, I often run into the problem of getting different variations of mech builds thrown at me, such as some combinations of Thor/hellbat or mass Thor and vikings + either ravens, banshees, or mass widowmines.
Without a lot of early preparation, some of these compositions seem very very hard to deal with, Are there any strong tells right now from early scouts to see this sort of play coming? And if spotted, what type of compositions are optimal for dealing with these mech variants? I like to think air toss is the way to go, but many terrans quite often will either make vikings premptivley to deal with possible air tech supplemented by thors, or ravens to counter phoenixes a bit. That seems to take collosus out of the equation, and leaves me with voidrays or high templar. Perhaps I'm missing something important here, but basically there's so much to play around with in mech and air tech for terran, that I can't seem to make a strong educated guess as to what the backbone of my army should consist of when I can at least confirm some sort of mech play.
Any help with either of these questions would be greatly appreciated  .
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On March 26 2013 22:50 Vansetsu wrote:Since RSVP seems to be answering questions today, I'll chime in with two of my own regarding PvT. 1. It seems as if nexus first or very early nexus builds are very unsafe, due to the amount of damage a terran can do with widow mines ect off of one gas early. Therefore, I tend to go stargate at 28 (probe scout to confirm after 13 gate). The Idea is i can chrono a stalker for reaper defense and use a mothership core and other stalkers to either harass or just confirm expansion or tech, Meanwhile, I'll have an oracle to deal with any widowmine shenanigans, and if they don't seem to be coming, I can send the intial oracle to harass or make a 2nd one. My main dilemma is that in order to get the startgate at 28, along with getting a few stalkers and researching wg, this forces me to take an early 2nd gas around 16. If i see the terran took his 1 gas, but then decided to quickly get his natural up, am I just plain behind no matter what unless he has poor reflexes vs my oracle harass? Or is there a more frugal way to still play conservative, and get a decent expansion timing up, without being so vulnerable to early game pressure? 2. Even after your first base scout of the terran early mid-game, they may only have a 1-1-1 up. At this point though, you are usually laying the groundwork for a specific army type, or still building stalkers, while the terran could still be going bio or mech. When they do go mech, I often run into the problem of getting different variations of mech builds thrown at me, such as some combinations of Thor/hellbat or mass Thor and vikings + either ravens, banshees, or mass widowmines. Without a lot of early preparation, some of these compositions seem very very hard to deal with, Are there any strong tells right now from early scouts to see this sort of play coming? And if spotted, what type of compositions are optimal for dealing with these mech variants? I like to think air toss is the way to go, but many terrans quite often will either make vikings premptivley to deal with possible air tech supplemented by thors, or ravens to counter phoenixes a bit. That seems to take collosus out of the equation, and leaves me with voidrays or high templar. Perhaps I'm missing something important here, but basically there's so much to play around with in mech and air tech for terran, that I can't seem to make a strong educated guess as to what the backbone of my army should consist of when I can at least confirm some sort of mech play. Any help with either of these questions would be greatly appreciated .
I haven't had much problems facing early widow mines going 1 gate FE. I like to get mostly stalkers out of my first gateway (no sentries), and immediately go for a robo for an early obs. An early MSC to make sure you have enough energy for a photon overcharge when the attack hits helps a lot as well.
The widow mine attack in this replay probably comes a bit later than what you're talking about, but as you can see I'm prepared with MSC and obs + stalkers a long time before the attack hits anyway. Just make sure to micro your stalkers carefully against widow mines (don't attack move into them even with detection, always target fire them otherwise your stalkers will just run into their range before the AI realizes it has a target).
http://drop.sc/313924
My personal favorite response to any sort of mech play is to go heavy robo (both immortals and colossus). As soon as I scout multiple factories I'll add a 2nd robo, if we're both on 3 bases I'll even add a 3rd robo. It's effective against pretty much any ground based mech combination. Vikings can sometimes be a problem but you'll have stalkers to fight them, and even if vikings end up killing all your colossi hopefully by then your colossi have already killed what they needed to kill (marines, hellbat/hellions).
Air can work as well, but like you said, it's just not as versatile of a counter. If the terran goes heavy on marines/vikings with their mech, that can really screw you up. Same thing for fighting terran air, I don't like going phoenix - instead I use blink + storm. However, if it ever gets to late game and he has huge tank lines, then at some point you'll have to switch to air and use carriers or something.
In this game the terran goes marine + tank into banshee/viking/raven, by the time he switches to air I'm way ahead but I would still use the same response and unit compositions in a more even game.
http://drop.sc/313925
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Is it really safe to go zealot-sentry-zealot off 1gate in hots PvP? It seems like a lone MSC could get a free scout and kills
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EPT
