EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 38
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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n0ah
United States250 Posts
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SkyBlaze
Canada191 Posts
On April 01 2013 03:12 Teoita wrote: There's cool stuff coming up on that build soon ish. are you talking about the double forge version? (with early expo and dt drops). Edit~ nm also the guy below this post should know the PvP is all about positioning and Micro in the late game, no End unit comps. but most ppl are going void rays late game. If they are, I end up killing them b4 that happens most of the time with timing pushs and pulling them part with drops or multi unit control. HotS rewards players with better mechanic(micro and macro) a lot more then WoL. | ||
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kc2siq
United States319 Posts
I was just wondering if there's a preferred death ball composition in PvP now? The late-game feels a bit rock-paper-scissors with Voidray-based armies beating collosus-based and templar based beating voidray-based but still dying to collosus based. Or voidray>collosus>HT>voidray I feel like there should be a healthy mix somewhere in between, but keep dying when I try some weird mix or maybe my micro is bad. Not sure. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
I used to think blink stalkers could be effective versus them, but blink stalkers die faster than I can micro them in the late game. Honestly I've never had much success in beating a 200/200 voidray deathball that's supported by zealot/archon, so I tend to just go for that composition myself. I know that some people out there are beating the composition but I'm not sure how, so I'm just sticking with the "beat it by using it" strat. | ||
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SharkBait
United States36 Posts
On April 01 2013 01:54 Excludos wrote: I'm fairly stuck PvZ right now. Does anyone have any decent fast 3 base builds involving stargates that actually works? User was warned for this post edit: Funny how I visit this thread a lot, and still managed to forget that white text on the top that tells me to not do exactly what I did. (I even wrote a lot more, but decided to make it simple  fail)Anyways, my problem lies in that I really like air openings, especially in PvZ, where multitasking can be rewarded with phoenix harass and whatnot. Usually I open stargate of ffe, and grab a third as I'm harassing. The problem lies in those games where the zerg goes for mass hydras. Once I scout it I usually just throw down a robo bay right away and desperately try to get a collosus out. If I somehow hold off the first attack, all the zerg needs to do is to add some corrupter to his next attack and thats the end of that game. So back to my original question, does anyone know of any way to make skytoss actually work vs zerg in the early/mid game? If scouted early enough, I prefer templar since storm deals well with both hydras and corruptors. Or you can go carriers, especially if you throw down two stargates in addition to your initial one and keep up on upgrades. Imo, carriers are more fun since zergs don't seem to know how to deal with them other than mass corruptor, and void rays shred corruptors also, good sim city with tons of cannons and a planatery nexus holds fairly well, even with just void rays and warpgate reinforcements. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8279 Posts
On April 01 2013 05:10 SharkBait wrote: If scouted early enough, I prefer templar since storm deals well with both hydras and corruptors. Or you can go carriers, especially if you throw down two stargates in addition to your initial one and keep up on upgrades. Imo, carriers are more fun since zergs don't seem to know how to deal with them other than mass corruptor, and void rays shred corruptors also, good sim city with tons of cannons and a planatery nexus holds fairly well, even with just void rays and warpgate reinforcements. This doesn't really hold up, unfortunately. "If scouted early enough", thats kinda the entire problem, its hard to scout, and really the only scouting ability you will have is either those phoenixes, which makes it already a tad too late to deal with properly, or hallucinated phoenixes, which is available about the same time the real phoenixes are. If you scout mass hydras at that point, going straight to templar tech will be waaay too late. And no, going right up to carriers isn't an option either. You wont have enough out in time to deal with his forces. Carries are good in the protoss deathball, but one or two alone isn't going to do anything against mass hydra/corrupter if you don't have any kind of splash damage as well. (and I have no idea how you expect to be able to make units, upgrades, probes, AND be able to make carriers off of 3 stargates on only 3 bases..) | ||
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Whalecore
Norway1111 Posts
A) All-in on 2 base. B) Get a robo and third up while harassing with phoenix. So unless you go for a 2 base all-in, the robo should be built right after you have 4 phoenix. You should get it no matter what information you have or don't have on the zerg tech. Since you need colossus to deal with hydras or swarm hosts. If he goes for mutalisks instead, just keep building phoenix, add another stargate and use your robo to get observers while defending your third. I was struggling a lot recently PvZ and it was because I got screwed over by zerg teching. FFE into stargate into robo/3rd might be the safest way to play. | ||
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Gessen
United States19 Posts
So far my thoughts are slowing down the collo tech, getting a better gateway army to defend the third, and then scouting to decide tech. http://drop.sc/316485 -doesn't work http://drop.sc/316487 -works | ||
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Gessen
United States19 Posts
On April 01 2013 07:06 Whalecore wrote: Everytime you open stargate after FFE you should either: A) All-in on 2 base. B) Get a robo and third up while harassing with phoenix. So unless you go for a 2 base all-in, the robo should be built right after you have 4 phoenix. You should get it no matter what information you have or don't have on the zerg tech. Since you need colossus to deal with hydras or swarm hosts. If he goes for mutalisks instead, just keep building phoenix, add another stargate and use your robo to get observers while defending your third. I was struggling a lot recently PvZ and it was because I got screwed over by zerg teching. FFE into stargate into robo/3rd might be the safest way to play. Do you have a replay or a good guide for the timings for this? I always end up with too few units opening stargate 8/. | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
I think as the skytoss player the best reaction there would be to go tempest/carrier to snipe templar together with their chargelot/archon/immortal ground army, but i think you should be able to hit a good timing before that. Also, harassment is very strong against deathball type play and synergises very well with gateway-heavy gameplans. That said, 4gate phoenix, 4gate DT and 4gate Blink/MSC are all strong builds. | ||
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Whalecore
Norway1111 Posts
On April 01 2013 07:22 Gessen wrote: Do you have a replay or a good guide for the timings for this? I always end up with too few units opening stargate 8/. I don't have any clean replays of myself or anyone else doing macro based stargate play in PvZ in HotS yet. I'm currently practicing DT style in PvZ and will practice stargate play after, if I get some nice games I can upload replays. When real Proleague starts we will see a lot of it I'm 100% sure  Kespa tosses love the phoenix based macro play.Edit: I guess maybe check out Artosis stream, I think he opens stargate some games, and he always has late game focus. Good educational stream. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On April 01 2013 07:21 Gessen wrote: Hey guys, I'm having some small trouble PvZ. I would appreciate some feedback on this replay. Either here's a better build because this opener is weak, listen your macro is shit, or other tips/advice. Diamond or better would be awesome. Thanks all Glombax.477 if you want to hit me up on battle net, or I'll check back here for a post or a pm. So far my thoughts are slowing down the collo tech, getting a better gateway army to defend the third, and then scouting to decide tech. http://drop.sc/316485 -doesn't work http://drop.sc/316487 -works Watched your replay and took some notes. Obviously your mechanics aren't perfect so I'm not going to harp on minor issues, since that's just something you get better at over time. -Rally out your 8th probe so you can get your pylon down in your nat on time. easiest way to do it. -You're being way too safe in your opening. If your probe at the front doesn't see lings being made, then get your gateway and gas before you get any cannons. You can almost always get away with going gateway/gas with cannon after. Speeds up your tech and there's not much risk involved vs. what you've scouted. -At the five-ish minute mark you must scout for a third. If he has a third, you're safe to continue doing whatever, but if he does not, you must start to realize the posibility that he is rushing you. You're playing blind atm. -Make sure to prioritize probe production over everything else unless you can articulate a reason why you can't afford to make them. For the rest of your game it looks like you just didn't macro properly. You took your double gas in your main a little too early(you took them before gateway for no real reason that I can tell since you didn't use them except to build a bunch of sentries), and you didn't add on production fast enough. You're down 60 supply when he's getting ready to attack which just means you need to work on your macro. I wouldn't advise slowing down your collo tech as you noted. It's bad to take what you did in this game and try to apply it as an overall rule, because you were just so far out-macroed here that there's really nothing to take from it strategy wise. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On April 01 2013 08:06 vhapter wrote: ^ Cannon after gas? When I get my cannon before gas, then get double gas and lings show up, it's like I don't even have enough resources to pylon block my sim city. Are you talking about hatch first? I've never tried to figure out the timing lings arrive when the zerg goes hatch first. It just depends. You have to pay attention to how many lings Zerg is making. The forge and cannons slow down your build so obviously you want to make them as late as possible without dying. In the majority of the games you will play, Zerg's agenda is not to ling rush you before you can get cannons up. That's a very risky strategy for them and if their attack is parried, they will be behind. Don't forget, that even if you misjudge the timing and lings are on their way before your cannons can finish, you have a last resort weapon in your arsenal - The gateway block. Just throw down a gateway to block while your cannon completes, then you can cancel it or keep it and kill part of your wall later. A lot of players will even elect to go Nexus first against a pool opening. The timing is very tight, and you definitely can be ling pressured if you go nexus first vs. a pool, but it's a greedy build that can pay off. If you do the safest possible build ever game, you're going to end up behind before the game even really gets started. The timing on the actual subject of gateway/gas before cannons honestly isn't that vulnerable for Protoss. I do it virtually every game(unless I scout lings running to my base) and almost never see any negative draw back from it. Edit: And yeah, talking about pool first. Versus hatch first you pretty much have to get gateway/gas before cannons because your forge won't even be up in time since you got nexus first. | ||
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Gessen
United States19 Posts
On April 01 2013 07:52 SteveNick wrote: Watched your replay and took some notes. Obviously your mechanics aren't perfect so I'm not going to harp on minor issues, since that's just something you get better at over time. -Rally out your 8th probe so you can get your pylon down in your nat on time. easiest way to do it. -You're being way too safe in your opening. If your probe at the front doesn't see lings being made, then get your gateway and gas before you get any cannons. You can almost always get away with going gateway/gas with cannon after. Speeds up your tech and there's not much risk involved vs. what you've scouted. -At the five-ish minute mark you must scout for a third. If he has a third, you're safe to continue doing whatever, but if he does not, you must start to realize the posibility that he is rushing you. You're playing blind atm. -Make sure to prioritize probe production over everything else unless you can articulate a reason why you can't afford to make them. For the rest of your game it looks like you just didn't macro properly. You took your double gas in your main a little too early(you took them before gateway for no real reason that I can tell since you didn't use them except to build a bunch of sentries), and you didn't add on production fast enough. You're down 60 supply when he's getting ready to attack which just means you need to work on your macro. I wouldn't advise slowing down your collo tech as you noted. It's bad to take what you did in this game and try to apply it as an overall rule, because you were just so far out-macroed here that there's really nothing to take from it strategy wise. Thanks a lot, I appreciate you taking a look! I'll try and speed up my tech and get more on top of my production. From what you saw, was I way behind on probes early-mid game, compared to where i should have been, or was it mostly units? Thanks again. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On April 01 2013 08:31 Gessen wrote: Thanks a lot, I appreciate you taking a look! I'll try and speed up my tech and get more on top of my production. From what you saw, was I way behind on probes early-mid game, compared to where i should have been, or was it mostly units? Thanks again. Ya, just checked the replay again, and you definitely were light on probes. You can easily have 50 probes by 10 minutes after a fast expand and you only have 39. On 2 bases, you're not even achieving optimal saturation with that number, and are quite a ways from full saturation. So your problem was compounded. You weren't spending your resources on units fast enough to begin with, and you also didn't have enough resources as you should have due to your light probe count. Double whammy. | ||
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Darthsanta13
United States564 Posts
On April 01 2013 07:42 Whalecore wrote: I don't have any clean replays of myself or anyone else doing macro based stargate play in PvZ in HotS yet. I'm currently practicing DT style in PvZ and will practice stargate play after, if I get some nice games I can upload replays. When real Proleague starts we will see a lot of it I'm 100% sure Kespa tosses love the phoenix based macro play.Edit: I guess maybe check out Artosis stream, I think he opens stargate some games, and he always has late game focus. Good educational stream. Right now Artosis normally opens FFE -> Robo -> 4gate, with a quick scout of the main. If he sees spire going down, which is the usual response, he gets three reactive stargates and goes heavy on the muta counter. It seems like it works really well for him. Honestly I would suggest everyone watch Artosis's stream if you want to learn protoss. He goes indepth with his analysis and is really, really good at explaining both his and his opponent's builds. Plus his style is super emulatable. Players like MC, or Grubby, or Huk, I can watch and think about how awesome they are, but then they get into a situation where they completely turn the game around on the back of amazing micro or multitask and it's just impossible to recreate since I would lose if I was ever in that situation. Artosis's micro/multitask is obviously good, but it's not how he wins games. Which means you can use what he does in your own games to great effect. | ||
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Aenur
Germany66 Posts
How can i have high quality pylon radius on low shader settings? In HotS this is impossible on default settings. Tried to edit the variable.txt file, but also unsuccesful. So how has Sase achieved that? Does anyone know? | ||
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