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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On April 02 2013 04:28 Munchlaxx904 wrote:
Hey guys, I'm a Diamond WOL player and a high Plat in HOTS. I needed to see about the best all ins for each race. I normally play a hard macro style, but with a heavy course load in school and finals coming up, I've been having less time to play. I'm wanting to play shorter games to maximize the amount I can play in a shorter time. So if you guys could help me with some good builds, that would be awesome.
Depends. I'll get hunting around the thread to find the links in due course.
vTerran: I still maintain that playing a standard WoL style, or a dual-forge centric PvT is better for the win% than all-inning. It's a mentality thing I guess, but I feel more comfortable playing 'straight-up', so my all-ins don't really have my heart and soul in them, so to speak.
If you want an allin though MC's Stargate PvT
vs Zerg: the all-ins as far as I can tell are much the old tried and tested Immortal/Sentry, and the +2 attack blink stalker allins, although with mothership cores worked in you can have a bit more retreated potential. I see no reason why dual proxy stargate cheese wouldn't be potent, or Stargate/Gate allins either
Protoss mirror:There is no real all-in that seems anything other than coinflipping, at least that I've seen. Rsvp has posted a build here that involves fast DT offensive warpins while warping some in defensively vs all-ins, with a quick expand behind it. I adopted this idea myself, but actually find I've won a lot of games outright with my initial DTs. For those that I don't, I don't tend to be massively behind either.
Experiment yourself a bit, people skip a lot of corners blindly in the lower leagues without really knowing why they are doing so. Conversely, a lot of players (Z especially) have a lot more units than they should at certain timings, so all-ins that are designed to exploit pro players building nothing but drones don't work.
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1 gate expand versus widow mine in base before the 5 min mark... ideally it doesn't enter your base, but at 4:30 in the game wtf you know? Personally, it looks ridiculous and feels ridiculous, and it kinda feels like blizzard didn't tweak the mine to take into account the mothershipcore no longer having envision. But, for anyone that doesn't think 4 minute mines at your base is ridiculous, enlighten me on how you're combating this. Thanks.
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Italy12246 Posts
What i've seen First do vs Dream at IEM on Akilon flats was simply stall for time at his ramp. He cancelled his nexus and got two oracles out (he went 1gate fe into stargate), sending the first to ravage Dream's mineral line while he used the second to clean up the mines and marines in his main. Remember that as long as the mines are unburrowed (for example trying to come up your ramp) you can take shots off on them.
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On April 02 2013 06:56 playa wrote:
1 gate expand versus widow mine in base before the 5 min mark... ideally it doesn't enter your base, but at 4:30 in the game wtf you know? Personally, it looks ridiculous and feels ridiculous, and it kinda feels like blizzard didn't tweak the mine to take into account the mothershipcore no longer having envision. But, for anyone that doesn't think 4 minute mines at your base is ridiculous, enlighten me on how you're combating this. Thanks.
A Mine in your base by 4' is not ridiculous because it does not exist. The earliest Mine coming from a gas first proxy Factory (which is awful because it's super obvious as your Probe scout just sees gas first and no Factory inbase just after the Barracks is complete) is out at ~4'50, and Mines are not blessed with a Teleport ability to appear directly in your mineral line. If Terran goes a regular rax gas proxy fact, the Mine is out at ~5'05. Even the worst-case scenario such as Terran landing the Factory in your main and burrowing a Mine in your mineral line while you don't have detection can be handled: First vs SuperNova, Bel'shir Vestige, GSTL Pre-Season Finals (set5).
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Swarmhost/corruptor/overseer feels so abusive. It is pretty stupid to play against. Stuff like this doesn't usually get to me but I literally cannot think of a way to beat it outside of the zerg screwing up. As long as they target down your observers or oracles there is nothing you can do to deal with the swarmhosts. You have to go colossus or you get overrun but you die if you go colossus because they just mass corruptor after they get enough swarmhosts to contain you. I have yet to see a pro face this so I am not sure how they respond but I haven't been able to beat it outside of once where the zerg was terrible and walked his swarmhosts into my colossus because he hotkeyed them with his corruptors and overseers on one hotkey. I thought to try storm but that doesn't work, so I tried mass voidray but then they just switch to mutas and you then die. Mass blink dies outright. It isn't the contain itself that is frustrating, it is that they can contain you for so long because of how long the response to it takes to make that you are dead because they can double expand while containing you.
I can manage it on Akilon Wastes because I can still get a third so I might be able to afford a response, but on Star Station or Bel'Shir Vestige it is so much harder because they can cut you off and kill your third.
Does anyone have any idea how to respond to it? I am completely lost. I've ended up just 8gating if I see them go fast infestation pit. I finally felt like I had my PvZ under control in HOTS then this showed up and I've faced it like 3 times in a row today.
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I tried yesterday with 4G +1 8 Zealots rush into Robo yesterday. Managed to kill off Z's 3rd but got owned by constant roaches push. T_T
Guess i messed up my FF badly. T_T
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On April 02 2013 04:28 Munchlaxx904 wrote:
Hey guys, I'm a Diamond WOL player and a high Plat in HOTS. I needed to see about the best all ins for each race. I normally play a hard macro style, but with a heavy course load in school and finals coming up, I've been having less time to play. I'm wanting to play shorter games to maximize the amount I can play in a shorter time. So if you guys could help me with some good builds, that would be awesome.
vZ - Sentry Immortal all-in, 7G +2 Blink all-in, 4G DT into 7 Gate chargelots all-in
vT - 4G all-in, 3G SG all-in, 7G +2 obs Blink all-in, 5G SG (VR) all-in
Just to name a few.
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I use to be mid-masters Protoss (top 50 in division) back in July 2011. I'm just starting to do ranked match-making again...
Any PvX strats that are good lately? Or anyone got a standard PvP, PvZ, PvT builds?
User was temp banned for making no attempt to read.
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Hi All
I'm currently struggling quite a bit vs muta play in PvZ.
Just as a background, i tend to do 1 gate expand into stargate. I will have 3 gates, 1 stargate, 1 robo before i try to take a 3rd.
I've found that against most roach/hydra or infestor type mid game i am fine with.
However against muta based mid games, i find that i cant get out enough phoneixs to ward off the mutas and also it is very difficult (pretty much impossible) to take a 4th. I also find that because of the gas investment in phoniex and robo, it's not easy to switch to HT tech either.
Has anyone found any methods of dealing with muta play that doesnt involve opening double stargate (which seems to be the only option that i can see atm).
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On April 02 2013 11:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 06:56 playa wrote:
1 gate expand versus widow mine in base before the 5 min mark... ideally it doesn't enter your base, but at 4:30 in the game wtf you know? Personally, it looks ridiculous and feels ridiculous, and it kinda feels like blizzard didn't tweak the mine to take into account the mothershipcore no longer having envision. But, for anyone that doesn't think 4 minute mines at your base is ridiculous, enlighten me on how you're combating this. Thanks. A Mine in your base by 4' is not ridiculous because it does not exist. The earliest Mine coming from a gas first proxy Factory (which is awful because it's super obvious as your Probe scout just sees gas first and no Factory inbase just after the Barracks is complete) is out at ~4'50, and Mines are not blessed with a Teleport ability to appear directly in your mineral line. If Terran goes a regular rax gas proxy fact, the Mine is out at ~5'05. Even the worst-case scenario such as Terran landing the Factory in your main and burrowing a Mine in your mineral line while you don't have detection can be handled: First vs SuperNova, Bel'shir Vestige, GSTL Pre-Season Finals (set5).
We're playing two different patch versions then, because it was a proxy factory and it could have been considerably closer to my main, yet the mine was in my main at 4:45. It was essentially at my natural at 4:30. It's ridiculous. I can barely get a f'ing stalker out and I already need detection. Give me a f'ing break. Such a joke. Lings should be able to cloak and transform into banelings, no additional tech or cost, because obviously the 6 pool is UP.
On a two player map, I'd prefer to not scout with a probe and just send my first unit. Ultimately, this is the only strategy that I might need a heads up on, but even then, I'll just wait for them to do the obvious -- let me get my patch up-to--date so I can be playing the same game as you, but, even then, it sounds like a joke.
If this makes sense, I should be able to make a dt at 4:30 or zerg shouldn't be able to instantly make spores. There's no rhyme or reason here.
User was warned for this post
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Instead of raging at the balance, you can much more productively start thinking of ways to counter. You can hold off this type of mine attack by attacking them as they move forward. They're not dangerous unless they make it to your mineral line, and if you have proper coverage to the entry of your base, you can get free hits off on the mines to stagger their progress forward. You don't have to have detection when the mines arrive at your base in order to hold off the attack. In addition, if you hold off an attack like this and get out detection, you will most likely win the game, since it's definitely an all-in attack.
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On April 02 2013 13:42 SteveNick wrote:
Instead of raging at the balance, you can much more productively start thinking of ways to counter. You can hold off this type of mine attack by attacking them as they move forward. They're not dangerous unless they make it to your mineral line, and if you have proper coverage to the entry of your base, you can get free hits off on the mines to stagger their progress forward. You don't have to have detection when the mines arrive at your base in order to hold off the attack. In addition, if you hold off an attack like this and get out detection, you will most likely win the game, since it's definitely an all-in attack.
I'd rather just wait for the inevitable. It's 1 stalker. No obs. All-in. Ptff. If you can't expo or safely leave your base, it has done enough damage. The mothershipcore had envision for a reason. It was probably only removed because it removed dts from p vs p. Why did they give zerg the ability to make spores whenever they want? Because of ridic fast widow mines. Well, remove envision from the mothership core and guess what.. it's a problem. They need to require an add on or w/e. It makes no sense to just get a stalker out and already need an obs.
I wonder why the person that used this strat versus me has like 0 losses against toss. Prob his amazing micro and macro or something.
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Hey all, I'm a platinum protoss having a couple problems.
First, in PvT, I'm having a ton of trouble playing against mech. Once we both get up to those 200/200 armies, it seems like I have no chance if beating him. Should I be focusing more on harassing mech players, and denying expos, or just push straight at them when they aren't expecting it? Lately I've been doing a 2 colossus push that seems to work pretty well. Would skytoss be a better counter to heavy thor-banshee-viking-hellbat?
I'm also struggling with gateway expands in PvZ. It seems like every time I try, zerg just scouts it and roach rushes me. They wait til the nexus canon end then just push in, and I don't have enough to hold it.
Thanks
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On April 02 2013 11:26 Ben... wrote:
Swarmhost/corruptor/overseer feels so abusive. It is pretty stupid to play against. Stuff like this doesn't usually get to me but I literally cannot think of a way to beat it outside of the zerg screwing up. As long as they target down your observers or oracles there is nothing you can do to deal with the swarmhosts. You have to go colossus or you get overrun but you die if you go colossus because they just mass corruptor after they get enough swarmhosts to contain you. I have yet to see a pro face this so I am not sure how they respond but I haven't been able to beat it outside of once where the zerg was terrible and walked his swarmhosts into my colossus because he hotkeyed them with his corruptors and overseers on one hotkey. I thought to try storm but that doesn't work, so I tried mass voidray but then they just switch to mutas and you then die. Mass blink dies outright. It isn't the contain itself that is frustrating, it is that they can contain you for so long because of how long the response to it takes to make that you are dead because they can double expand while containing you.
I can manage it on Akilon Wastes because I can still get a third so I might be able to afford a response, but on Star Station or Bel'Shir Vestige it is so much harder because they can cut you off and kill your third.
Does anyone have any idea how to respond to it? I am completely lost. I've ended up just 8gating if I see them go fast infestation pit. I finally felt like I had my PvZ under control in HOTS then this showed up and I've faced it like 3 times in a row today.
I'm still trying to figure out what's the best way to beat it too but here's my thoughts on it so far:
- You need colossus, as fast and as many as possible. I always go robo against 2 base zerg - it's much easier to open robo and add stargates to fight mutas than it is to open stargate and have to add robo to fight swarm hosts. Once you confirm swarm host, I'd even add a 2nd robo.
- Warp prism play helps a lot. Warp zealots into his base and force him to leave units in his main, making it easier for you to deal with the swarm hosts outside your base.
- This goes without saying, but you have to actually kill the swarm hosts, not just a-move fighting endless waves of locusts. Constantly look for an opportunity to snipe swarm hosts with your colossus' range. Or if you are fighting only a small number of locusts, just ignore them and go after the swarm hosts themselves. During big engagements flanking with gateway units may help too (clear locusts with colossus while zealot/stalker comes from behind to pick off the swarm hosts).
- Regarding the observer, that's just a micro issue. Keep your observer(s) separately hotkeyed, and take care of them. Observers are also another reason why you should get 2 robos.
Here's 2 examples, not the best play from either side but maybe it can give you some idea of what I'm talking about:
http://drop.sc/316929
http://drop.sc/316930
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On April 02 2013 14:16 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 11:26 Ben... wrote:
Swarmhost/corruptor/overseer feels so abusive. It is pretty stupid to play against. Stuff like this doesn't usually get to me but I literally cannot think of a way to beat it outside of the zerg screwing up. As long as they target down your observers or oracles there is nothing you can do to deal with the swarmhosts. You have to go colossus or you get overrun but you die if you go colossus because they just mass corruptor after they get enough swarmhosts to contain you. I have yet to see a pro face this so I am not sure how they respond but I haven't been able to beat it outside of once where the zerg was terrible and walked his swarmhosts into my colossus because he hotkeyed them with his corruptors and overseers on one hotkey. I thought to try storm but that doesn't work, so I tried mass voidray but then they just switch to mutas and you then die. Mass blink dies outright. It isn't the contain itself that is frustrating, it is that they can contain you for so long because of how long the response to it takes to make that you are dead because they can double expand while containing you.
I can manage it on Akilon Wastes because I can still get a third so I might be able to afford a response, but on Star Station or Bel'Shir Vestige it is so much harder because they can cut you off and kill your third.
Does anyone have any idea how to respond to it? I am completely lost. I've ended up just 8gating if I see them go fast infestation pit. I finally felt like I had my PvZ under control in HOTS then this showed up and I've faced it like 3 times in a row today.
I'm still trying to figure out what's the best way to beat it too but here's my thoughts on it so far: - You need colossus, as fast and as many as possible. I always go robo against 2 base zerg - it's much easier to open robo and add stargates to fight mutas than it is to open stargate and have to add robo to fight swarm hosts. Once you confirm swarm host, I'd even add a 2nd robo. - Warp prism play helps a lot. Warp zealots into his base and force him to leave units in his main, making it easier for you to deal with the swarm hosts outside your base. - This goes without saying, but you have to actually kill the swarm hosts, not just a-move fighting endless waves of locusts. Constantly look for an opportunity to snipe swarm hosts with your colossus' range. Or if you are fighting only a small number of locusts, just ignore them and go after the swarm hosts themselves. During big engagements flanking with gateway units may help too (clear locusts with colossus while zealot/stalker comes from behind to pick off the swarm hosts). - Regarding the observer, that's just a micro issue. Keep your observer(s) separately hotkeyed, and take care of them. Observers are also another reason why you should get 2 robos. Here's 2 examples, not the best play from either side but maybe it can give you some idea of what I'm talking about: http://drop.sc/316929http://drop.sc/316930
Blizzard loves to give Z free units no?
Winfestor Terrans and now we have free Swarm Host on top of 200 army supply. Pfft!
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My current PvZ build right now is FFE->Stargate->4Gates total + Robo-> 3rd expand. It seems very standard now. However, some issues I have are...
1) Zerg almost always scouts my Stargate so my Stargate does very little, damage; how do I deny the OL scout? Should I know/are there map specific OL timings? Usually I only have Sentry or two to deny, but I'm thinking I need an earlier stalker.
2) If I scout Roach-Hydra, do I go straight to colossus and CB Void Rays? Or do I make more immortals then colossus? I get my robo around 8 minutes and expand around 9:00/9:30. Usually I go 1-2 obs and only 1 immortal, so I'm wondering: should I make at least 2 immortals or just skip them in general?
3) How do I deny a 4th base when they try to cancel/harass my 3rd? If they have enough to attack and expand, does that mean my SG did too little damage?
Some of these things I might be able to refine by just playing more (I always went FFE-3gate Robo in WoL, so SG-play is still weird to me).
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On April 02 2013 14:16 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 11:26 Ben... wrote:
Swarmhost/corruptor/overseer feels so abusive. It is pretty stupid to play against. Stuff like this doesn't usually get to me but I literally cannot think of a way to beat it outside of the zerg screwing up. As long as they target down your observers or oracles there is nothing you can do to deal with the swarmhosts. You have to go colossus or you get overrun but you die if you go colossus because they just mass corruptor after they get enough swarmhosts to contain you. I have yet to see a pro face this so I am not sure how they respond but I haven't been able to beat it outside of once where the zerg was terrible and walked his swarmhosts into my colossus because he hotkeyed them with his corruptors and overseers on one hotkey. I thought to try storm but that doesn't work, so I tried mass voidray but then they just switch to mutas and you then die. Mass blink dies outright. It isn't the contain itself that is frustrating, it is that they can contain you for so long because of how long the response to it takes to make that you are dead because they can double expand while containing you.
I can manage it on Akilon Wastes because I can still get a third so I might be able to afford a response, but on Star Station or Bel'Shir Vestige it is so much harder because they can cut you off and kill your third.
Does anyone have any idea how to respond to it? I am completely lost. I've ended up just 8gating if I see them go fast infestation pit. I finally felt like I had my PvZ under control in HOTS then this showed up and I've faced it like 3 times in a row today.
I'm still trying to figure out what's the best way to beat it too but here's my thoughts on it so far: - You need colossus, as fast and as many as possible. I always go robo against 2 base zerg - it's much easier to open robo and add stargates to fight mutas than it is to open stargate and have to add robo to fight swarm hosts. Once you confirm swarm host, I'd even add a 2nd robo. - Warp prism play helps a lot. Warp zealots into his base and force him to leave units in his main, making it easier for you to deal with the swarm hosts outside your base. - This goes without saying, but you have to actually kill the swarm hosts, not just a-move fighting endless waves of locusts. Constantly look for an opportunity to snipe swarm hosts with your colossus' range. Or if you are fighting only a small number of locusts, just ignore them and go after the swarm hosts themselves. During big engagements flanking with gateway units may help too (clear locusts with colossus while zealot/stalker comes from behind to pick off the swarm hosts). - Regarding the observer, that's just a micro issue. Keep your observer(s) separately hotkeyed, and take care of them. Observers are also another reason why you should get 2 robos. Here's 2 examples, not the best play from either side but maybe it can give you some idea of what I'm talking about: http://drop.sc/316929http://drop.sc/316930
Something I picked up from Incontrol and has worked at mid masters with decent success is laser toss + Mothership. The colossus are the only thing that can deal with locusts, while the voids combat corruptors and kill off overseers. Its pretty effective 2base vs 2base. The zerg really doesn't want to make more then a few overseers.
It seems like just dumping the minerals into cannons and zealots works out to act as a buffer for your colossuss.
Have you guys tried something like this?
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On April 02 2013 11:26 Ben... wrote:
Swarmhost/corruptor/overseer feels so abusive. It is pretty stupid to play against. Stuff like this doesn't usually get to me but I literally cannot think of a way to beat it outside of the zerg screwing up. As long as they target down your observers or oracles there is nothing you can do to deal with the swarmhosts. You have to go colossus or you get overrun but you die if you go colossus because they just mass corruptor after they get enough swarmhosts to contain you. I have yet to see a pro face this so I am not sure how they respond but I haven't been able to beat it outside of once where the zerg was terrible and walked his swarmhosts into my colossus because he hotkeyed them with his corruptors and overseers on one hotkey. I thought to try storm but that doesn't work, so I tried mass voidray but then they just switch to mutas and you then die. Mass blink dies outright. It isn't the contain itself that is frustrating, it is that they can contain you for so long because of how long the response to it takes to make that you are dead because they can double expand while containing you.
I can manage it on Akilon Wastes because I can still get a third so I might be able to afford a response, but on Star Station or Bel'Shir Vestige it is so much harder because they can cut you off and kill your third.
Does anyone have any idea how to respond to it? I am completely lost. I've ended up just 8gating if I see them go fast infestation pit. I finally felt like I had my PvZ under control in HOTS then this showed up and I've faced it like 3 times in a row today.
You're simply gonna have to play like zerg has done vs terran siege tanks since the dawn of time, you're gonna have to force preferable engagements, you're gonna have to not sit in your base the entire game, and get out there to take map control, or at least keep enough control so that he can't put swarm hosts and set up static defence, and even walk slow queens over there, in front of your base. If he does manage to set that up, then you've simply not scouted properly for severel minutes. On larger maps you can even simply walk around the setup and attack it from behind, or the side.
If he has a low amount of spore crawlers and queen, void rays can easily kill off both corruptors and swarm hosts, alternatively, snipe his overseer, it's big and easily targetable, it has fairly low health, and is pretty expensive.
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On April 02 2013 15:17 RiceAgainst wrote:
My current PvZ build right now is FFE->Stargate->4Gates total + Robo-> 3rd expand. It seems very standard now. However, some issues I have are...
1) Zerg almost always scouts my Stargate so my Stargate does very little, damage; how do I deny the OL scout? Should I know/are there map specific OL timings? Usually I only have Sentry or two to deny, but I'm thinking I need an earlier stalker.
2) If I scout Roach-Hydra, do I go straight to colossus and CB Void Rays? Or do I make more immortals then colossus? I get my robo around 8 minutes and expand around 9:00/9:30. Usually I go 1-2 obs and only 1 immortal, so I'm wondering: should I make at least 2 immortals or just skip them in general?
3) How do I deny a 4th base when they try to cancel/harass my 3rd? If they have enough to attack and expand, does that mean my SG did too little damage?
Some of these things I might be able to refine by just playing more (I always went FFE-3gate Robo in WoL, so SG-play is still weird to me).
1) You want your first Gateway unit to be a Stalker, you know where Zerg spawned and possibly your Probe saw the first or second Overlord so you can anticipate where his Overlord(s) will come from. A Stalker in the right position can deny a single Overlord before he can get any useful information. Your Stargate should be placed somewhere it is not easy to scout, behind your mineral line in the main or between main and natural are the two standard spots for that. I go Stalker -> Sentry -> Stalker, Stalker with that build, meaning I often deny the scouting and afterwards try to put on a little pressure to force ZLings, not even do direct damage at all since speed can finish soon after you move out.
Also the new range on Phoenix means you can always kills a Queen or two and a few Overlords/Drones. Try to keep the Phoenix alive (I get 5) rather than do a lot of damage fast, over time I usually get between 2 and 4 Queens 3 to 4 Overlords and a couple of Drones often even Hydras ( if you camp the main or third at the right time you can catch them right after they spawn. Priority in my mind is Queens > Overlords > Roaches/Hydras > Gas Drones But keep all Phoenix alive as long as possible or You lose scouting and Zerg can kill you with a late Mutas switch.
2)I get my 3 Gates and Robo right when my main and natural bases are saturated, I found you need that against someone who makes a lot of Roaches fast. Whenever you scout Hydras you need to get Colossi asap and you can imo skip Immortals, I also only get a single Observer, it chills where his rally point is aka somewhere around the natural. taking a thrid at 9 minutes against someone who is going to 3Base all-in with Roach Hydra seems pretty suicidal to me after opening Phoenix, it is OK to delay it for 2 Minutes or so and wait for at least 1.5 Colossi. Colossi Sentries and MsC are really strong as long as no Corruptors are in play but you need the Colossus or you will not be able to hold.
3) I usually try to catch the Drone with my Phoenix while it is on the move to the fourth. I don't see any other way without dying to an attack in case he didn't tech hard. Again I think taking the third so early might be the main problem. You are going for an incredibly strong army, you do not need to keep up with his economy, rather take the third safe and try to harass with Zealots later on. The key is to scout. 1 evo or 2? Is there an Infestation pit or a Spire? React accordingly (2 Evos and a fourth with all gases taken usually indicates Vipers, a single evo and no Infestation pit indicates an all-in. Spire can mean Mutas or Corruptors, Mutas if there are just enough ground forces to defend, Corruptors if there are enough to attack you.
I often died to Roach max or Roach Hydra max before I realized that you can take your third way later if he tries to go for that, 2 Colossi should do the trick with enough Gateway units and Time Warp.
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On April 02 2013 14:16 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 11:26 Ben... wrote:
Swarmhost/corruptor/overseer feels so abusive. It is pretty stupid to play against. Stuff like this doesn't usually get to me but I literally cannot think of a way to beat it outside of the zerg screwing up. As long as they target down your observers or oracles there is nothing you can do to deal with the swarmhosts. You have to go colossus or you get overrun but you die if you go colossus because they just mass corruptor after they get enough swarmhosts to contain you. I have yet to see a pro face this so I am not sure how they respond but I haven't been able to beat it outside of once where the zerg was terrible and walked his swarmhosts into my colossus because he hotkeyed them with his corruptors and overseers on one hotkey. I thought to try storm but that doesn't work, so I tried mass voidray but then they just switch to mutas and you then die. Mass blink dies outright. It isn't the contain itself that is frustrating, it is that they can contain you for so long because of how long the response to it takes to make that you are dead because they can double expand while containing you.
I can manage it on Akilon Wastes because I can still get a third so I might be able to afford a response, but on Star Station or Bel'Shir Vestige it is so much harder because they can cut you off and kill your third.
Does anyone have any idea how to respond to it? I am completely lost. I've ended up just 8gating if I see them go fast infestation pit. I finally felt like I had my PvZ under control in HOTS then this showed up and I've faced it like 3 times in a row today.
I'm still trying to figure out what's the best way to beat it too but here's my thoughts on it so far: - You need colossus, as fast and as many as possible. I always go robo against 2 base zerg - it's much easier to open robo and add stargates to fight mutas than it is to open stargate and have to add robo to fight swarm hosts. Once you confirm swarm host, I'd even add a 2nd robo. - Warp prism play helps a lot. Warp zealots into his base and force him to leave units in his main, making it easier for you to deal with the swarm hosts outside your base. - This goes without saying, but you have to actually kill the swarm hosts, not just a-move fighting endless waves of locusts. Constantly look for an opportunity to snipe swarm hosts with your colossus' range. Or if you are fighting only a small number of locusts, just ignore them and go after the swarm hosts themselves. During big engagements flanking with gateway units may help too (clear locusts with colossus while zealot/stalker comes from behind to pick off the swarm hosts). - Regarding the observer, that's just a micro issue. Keep your observer(s) separately hotkeyed, and take care of them. Observers are also another reason why you should get 2 robos. Here's 2 examples, not the best play from either side but maybe it can give you some idea of what I'm talking about: http://drop.sc/316929http://drop.sc/316930 Yeah I agree completely with what you said. I go 2 robo colossus until I have out enough to comfortably kill all the locusts.
What I tried doing in another game last night was when I saw them going fast infestor pit I threw down a few proxy pylons (with the logic behind that being that it would not interrupt colossus production). I actually managed to take out his third and break the contain, enabling me to secure my own third, but he did a mass muta switch and I died because I had been pumping voidray/templar in preparation for airtoss and did not have a response because he basically went for all my workers rather than structures, and starved me out.
I am definitely going to have to mess with my hotkeys so I can fit in one for observers or a second group of air units. I moved everything up one number so I could have 3 army hotkeys but that doesn't seem to be cutting it.
Edit: Watched the replays, the first is more applicable to my issue than the second but they both helped with general ideas on what to do. Thanks! I also noticed in the first that the zerg opened speedling before expanding. I've been seeing that a lot more lately too. That definitely complicates things. Two people I played who did the two base swarmhost thing also went for this fast pool speedling opening. I've been trying to figure whether it is better to have my forge as a wall or behind my minerals in the main. The benefit of having it in the main being that if they overrun my natural (which has happened with this fast speed build) I can defend my main easily and only be a bit behind, but having it at the natural allows me to wall off so much easier such that I may be able to stop that build completely.
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