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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On April 03 2013 15:17 JSK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 15:10 Ben... wrote:On April 03 2013 14:58 JSK wrote:On April 03 2013 14:42 Yericho wrote:On April 03 2013 13:40 JSK wrote:
I'm just gonna put this out there:
people need to experiment more with mass phoenix in pvz. and i do mean mass. zerg counters for them are far from ideal. hydras are good vs phoenixes in limited number. but mass phoenix gravitron beam vs hydras works wonders. infestors are okay and it could go either way if you really get chain fungalled but the zerg should never get a critical mass of infestors, you should be picking them off constantly. oracle for burrow detect. corruptors are alright but cannot catch phoenix in the first place. if he's using corruptors to protect swarm hosts or something then you should be able to take the corruptors head on. (because you're massing them and upgrading them like a madman whereas zerg is split between corruptors hydras and swarm hosts-remember im talking non-stop phoenix production off multiple stargazes)
you will need other units but this just has to many benefits i don't understand why more people aren't experimenting with it. it requires a very high APM and is very fragile. i think that's because it hasn't been figured out yet.
oh- and the best part: don't have to deal with mutalisks at all.
Ultralisks will just destroy any Protoss going for mass Phoenix. stargates can also produce void rays and tempests, not to mention dts are great on defense you really need to do better than a one-sentence captain obvious post about the fact that phoenixes dont kill ultralisks Ever see Mondragon vs. some protoss on Crevasse from TSL3 where the Protoss went for a kinda cutesy stargate build? All someone would have to do is embrace their inner Mondragon and you would die. I'm not talking about a "cutesy" stargate build. And you're talking about Wings of Liberty right? I agree, if I went for a cutesy stargate build in wings of liberty vs mondragon on crevasse, I would probably die. I want to have a discussion about this but just completely dismissing out of hand what I'm trying to have a discussion about is not the same thing as constructive criticism. So. Why can't mass phoenix with upgrades work? i do not mean ONLY phoenix. i mean as the core of the army. The point stands. If you go mass air in the midgame with only zealot or stalker support then there is a good chance mass roach will simply steamroll you, and this is especially with mass phoenix. It doesn't matter if you try to switch to voidrays if he has 50+ roaches slamming through your base at the 11 minute mark. If you are investing that heavily in phoenixes then you will be short on gas, which will leave you with zealots and stalkers for ground units, which roaches again will eat through. The reason I brought that game up was because it spawned the idea that enough roaches can counter anything. His opponent went air (If I remember right it was even phoenixes) into robo but Mondragon simply made so many roaches the dude got overwhelmed, even with voidrays to defend the roaches. And that game was before the idea of the roach max came about. Most modern Zergs would have no issue seeing mass phoenix then going into some crazy all-in with roach/ling because they know it would be insanely hard to stop if you are heavily invested into air.
Phoenix don't work in mass because they can be rendered completely useless by enough hydras, queens and spore crawlers. Not just kinda useless but completely useless. They can go from being worth their weight in gold to being completely worthless in the span of a minute. A smart zerg will see them, throw down a ton of spores (if you are investing this much in phoenixes then the spores won't set them back too much), hide all their overlords in the spores and then continue on with a normal game.
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I'm a high master EU toss. Does anyone have any good build orders for every match up ? I can't find any on the TL strategy forums.
Right now I play mostly on feel and make up the b.o's as I go along. If anyone could give me some that would be awesome !
Edit: I'm fucking blind, but I don't really know what else I can say with this post, I've got around a 55% win rate in each match up but I feel like I could do a lot better with some solid openings instead of just stuff I make up, right now I'm pretty much just scouting and then reacting to what I see but overall it feels very sloppy and unrefined. Of course I would still react to what my opponent is doing with a good build order but at least it allows me to have some sense of direction before hand.
User was warned for this post
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On April 03 2013 23:28 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 15:17 JSK wrote:On April 03 2013 15:10 Ben... wrote:On April 03 2013 14:58 JSK wrote:On April 03 2013 14:42 Yericho wrote:On April 03 2013 13:40 JSK wrote:
I'm just gonna put this out there:
people need to experiment more with mass phoenix in pvz. and i do mean mass. zerg counters for them are far from ideal. hydras are good vs phoenixes in limited number. but mass phoenix gravitron beam vs hydras works wonders. infestors are okay and it could go either way if you really get chain fungalled but the zerg should never get a critical mass of infestors, you should be picking them off constantly. oracle for burrow detect. corruptors are alright but cannot catch phoenix in the first place. if he's using corruptors to protect swarm hosts or something then you should be able to take the corruptors head on. (because you're massing them and upgrading them like a madman whereas zerg is split between corruptors hydras and swarm hosts-remember im talking non-stop phoenix production off multiple stargazes)
you will need other units but this just has to many benefits i don't understand why more people aren't experimenting with it. it requires a very high APM and is very fragile. i think that's because it hasn't been figured out yet.
oh- and the best part: don't have to deal with mutalisks at all.
Ultralisks will just destroy any Protoss going for mass Phoenix. stargates can also produce void rays and tempests, not to mention dts are great on defense you really need to do better than a one-sentence captain obvious post about the fact that phoenixes dont kill ultralisks Ever see Mondragon vs. some protoss on Crevasse from TSL3 where the Protoss went for a kinda cutesy stargate build? All someone would have to do is embrace their inner Mondragon and you would die. I'm not talking about a "cutesy" stargate build. And you're talking about Wings of Liberty right? I agree, if I went for a cutesy stargate build in wings of liberty vs mondragon on crevasse, I would probably die. I want to have a discussion about this but just completely dismissing out of hand what I'm trying to have a discussion about is not the same thing as constructive criticism. So. Why can't mass phoenix with upgrades work? i do not mean ONLY phoenix. i mean as the core of the army. The point stands. If you go mass air in the midgame with only zealot or stalker support then there is a good chance mass roach will simply steamroll you, and this is especially with mass phoenix. It doesn't matter if you try to switch to voidrays if he has 50+ roaches slamming through your base at the 11 minute mark. If you are investing that heavily in phoenixes then you will be short on gas, which will leave you with zealots and stalkers for ground units, which roaches again will eat through. The reason I brought that game up was because it spawned the idea that enough roaches can counter anything. His opponent went air (If I remember right it was even phoenixes) into robo but Mondragon simply made so many roaches the dude got overwhelmed, even with voidrays to defend the roaches. And that game was before the idea of the roach max came about. Most modern Zergs would have no issue seeing mass phoenix then going into some crazy all-in with roach/ling because they know it would be insanely hard to stop if you are heavily invested into air. Phoenix don't work in mass because they can be rendered completely useless by enough hydras, queens and spore crawlers. Not just kinda useless but completely useless. They can go from being worth their weight in gold to being completely worthless in the span of a minute. A smart zerg will see them, throw down a ton of spores (if you are investing this much in phoenixes then the spores won't set them back too much), hide all their overlords in the spores and then continue on with a normal game.
yes I sure will be short on gas. but how id 50+ roaches going to "slam" through mass cannon (mineral dump), planetary nexus, a few void rays, and mass phoenix? Not to mention DTS have such high dps that they are ideal for defense. That's part of the point of a mass phoenix style- zerg has to produce an absurd amount of overseers because they have to attack into cannon/planetary nexus/void ray/ tempest/ oracle/ phoenix/dark templar
i fail to see how roach/ling is "insanely hard" to stop with stargate. im sorry but roach/ling cannot shoot up. i understand the dangers of sniping nexus. I was once a high masters protoss. this is not pure theorycrafting.
it won't leave me with zealots and stalkers because i won't make zealots and stalkers.
if im going mass phoenix and my opponent's response is mass roach ling... how does this prevent me from killing all of his overlords and queens and preventing his mass roach ling strategy in the first place? phoenixes with upgrades kill roaches pretty fast. gravitron beam should not be underestimated.
and no, im sorry, phoenix cannot be rendered useless by hydras queens and spore crawlers because these units cannot be in all places at once, whereas phoenix can. if he builds enough spores to make them useless you should be able to expand with the zerg 1 for 1.
yes, a zerg can hide all of their overlords among their spores and continue a normal game. but that doesn't work vs phoenix range.
i also fail to see how phoenixes can be rendered completely useless- even if one base is completely protected by spores, the other bases cannot be. the phoenixes can all be in one place at once whereas spores cannot. this is a weakness of static defense.
all I'm saying is TRY this before you assume that it will not work. there is no harm in trying.
Remember that we are on the same side here- I Am not trying to argue with you, I am only trying to help Protoss develop a style that will beat Zerg in the long run. I don't have very much time to play but i was masters at one point in time and I truly believe that Phoenix are the most under-rated unit in the entire game. I just think you should give it a shot is all. Roaches simply do not counter mass phoenix.
If you need a strategy thread and replays I will give them to you. I would bet money on the idea that this is the future of pvz.
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Mid Masters Protoss with quick question for PvT. Does anyone have a set Of replays or VoDs of the DT Drop into double forge build Artosis talked about on State of the Game? I've been trying variations from word of mouth but would love to see first hand what the build looks like from a high level player.
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Okay, so I am having som issues with PvT atm and I am wondering if anyone could help me. So basically, if I get maxed out with both HT's and colossus, there is almost no way I'm losing vs a Terran, but it's not always I get to that stage, I was recently promoted to diamond and all people do now is dropping, so taking a third is impossible. Whenever I try to take my third, that's usually when I lose because I get so spread out.
I have at least two observers around my bases, I have spotting-pylons all around the map, as well as a unit here or there out on the map, preventing drops on two bases is not really a problem but it's when I get to three bases that it becomes one, please help.
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On April 04 2013 01:50 Depeche Mode wrote:
Okay, so I am having som issues with PvT atm and I am wondering if anyone could help me. So basically, if I get maxed out with both HT's and colossus, there is almost no way I'm losing vs a Terran, but it's not always I get to that stage, I was recently promoted to diamond and all people do now is dropping, so taking a third is impossible. Whenever I try to take my third, that's usually when I lose because I get so spread out.
I have at least two observers around my bases, I have spotting-pylons all around the map, as well as a unit here or there out on the map, preventing drops on two bases is not really a problem but it's when I get to three bases that it becomes one, please help.
Split up your army and make sure you hold the watch tower, you don't need your army clumped up in a ball if he's not going to be attacking you at the front, if he's attacking and using two drop ships in your main you can put cannons up to buy you time to crush his frontal army and warp in/move your main army to defend the drop, cannons with photon overcharge should be enough but once you are in three bases you should have HT tech up so keep 1 - 2 HT's in each base to feedback drops.
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What's the most safe build for Protoss vs Random? Obviously FFE is out of the question. I usually go for the standard gate-core and then react based on what my opponent's race is, but these last few games I've come across a 10/10 gas/pool build thrice, multiple 11/11 and other cheeses. Should I just wall off with gate/core like in the old pvz days?
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On April 04 2013 01:15 JSK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 23:28 Ben... wrote:On April 03 2013 15:17 JSK wrote:On April 03 2013 15:10 Ben... wrote:On April 03 2013 14:58 JSK wrote:On April 03 2013 14:42 Yericho wrote:On April 03 2013 13:40 JSK wrote:
I'm just gonna put this out there:
people need to experiment more with mass phoenix in pvz. and i do mean mass. zerg counters for them are far from ideal. hydras are good vs phoenixes in limited number. but mass phoenix gravitron beam vs hydras works wonders. infestors are okay and it could go either way if you really get chain fungalled but the zerg should never get a critical mass of infestors, you should be picking them off constantly. oracle for burrow detect. corruptors are alright but cannot catch phoenix in the first place. if he's using corruptors to protect swarm hosts or something then you should be able to take the corruptors head on. (because you're massing them and upgrading them like a madman whereas zerg is split between corruptors hydras and swarm hosts-remember im talking non-stop phoenix production off multiple stargazes)
you will need other units but this just has to many benefits i don't understand why more people aren't experimenting with it. it requires a very high APM and is very fragile. i think that's because it hasn't been figured out yet.
oh- and the best part: don't have to deal with mutalisks at all.
Ultralisks will just destroy any Protoss going for mass Phoenix. stargates can also produce void rays and tempests, not to mention dts are great on defense you really need to do better than a one-sentence captain obvious post about the fact that phoenixes dont kill ultralisks Ever see Mondragon vs. some protoss on Crevasse from TSL3 where the Protoss went for a kinda cutesy stargate build? All someone would have to do is embrace their inner Mondragon and you would die. I'm not talking about a "cutesy" stargate build. And you're talking about Wings of Liberty right? I agree, if I went for a cutesy stargate build in wings of liberty vs mondragon on crevasse, I would probably die. I want to have a discussion about this but just completely dismissing out of hand what I'm trying to have a discussion about is not the same thing as constructive criticism. So. Why can't mass phoenix with upgrades work? i do not mean ONLY phoenix. i mean as the core of the army. The point stands. If you go mass air in the midgame with only zealot or stalker support then there is a good chance mass roach will simply steamroll you, and this is especially with mass phoenix. It doesn't matter if you try to switch to voidrays if he has 50+ roaches slamming through your base at the 11 minute mark. If you are investing that heavily in phoenixes then you will be short on gas, which will leave you with zealots and stalkers for ground units, which roaches again will eat through. The reason I brought that game up was because it spawned the idea that enough roaches can counter anything. His opponent went air (If I remember right it was even phoenixes) into robo but Mondragon simply made so many roaches the dude got overwhelmed, even with voidrays to defend the roaches. And that game was before the idea of the roach max came about. Most modern Zergs would have no issue seeing mass phoenix then going into some crazy all-in with roach/ling because they know it would be insanely hard to stop if you are heavily invested into air. Phoenix don't work in mass because they can be rendered completely useless by enough hydras, queens and spore crawlers. Not just kinda useless but completely useless. They can go from being worth their weight in gold to being completely worthless in the span of a minute. A smart zerg will see them, throw down a ton of spores (if you are investing this much in phoenixes then the spores won't set them back too much), hide all their overlords in the spores and then continue on with a normal game. yes I sure will be short on gas. but how id 50+ roaches going to "slam" through mass cannon (mineral dump), planetary nexus, a few void rays, and mass phoenix? Not to mention DTS have such high dps that they are ideal for defense. That's part of the point of a mass phoenix style- zerg has to produce an absurd amount of overseers because they have to attack into cannon/planetary nexus/void ray/ tempest/ oracle/ phoenix/dark templar i fail to see how roach/ling is "insanely hard" to stop with stargate. im sorry but roach/ling cannot shoot up. i understand the dangers of sniping nexus. I was once a high masters protoss. this is not pure theorycrafting. it won't leave me with zealots and stalkers because i won't make zealots and stalkers. if im going mass phoenix and my opponent's response is mass roach ling... how does this prevent me from killing all of his overlords and queens and preventing his mass roach ling strategy in the first place? phoenixes with upgrades kill roaches pretty fast. gravitron beam should not be underestimated. and no, im sorry, phoenix cannot be rendered useless by hydras queens and spore crawlers because these units cannot be in all places at once, whereas phoenix can. if he builds enough spores to make them useless you should be able to expand with the zerg 1 for 1. yes, a zerg can hide all of their overlords among their spores and continue a normal game. but that doesn't work vs phoenix range. i also fail to see how phoenixes can be rendered completely useless- even if one base is completely protected by spores, the other bases cannot be. the phoenixes can all be in one place at once whereas spores cannot. this is a weakness of static defense. all I'm saying is TRY this before you assume that it will not work. there is no harm in trying. Remember that we are on the same side here- I Am not trying to argue with you, I am only trying to help Protoss develop a style that will beat Zerg in the long run. I don't have very much time to play but i was masters at one point in time and I truly believe that Phoenix are the most under-rated unit in the entire game. I just think you should give it a shot is all. Roaches simply do not counter mass phoenix. If you need a strategy thread and replays I will give them to you. I would bet money on the idea that this is the future of pvz. But how do you afford plural stargates of phoenix production, upgrades for both air and ground, a fleet beacon and range, DTs (which are insanely gas intensive and rely on the zerg not having detection, something few zergs are forgetting these days), and expanding while being safe in the midgame, where zerg is at their strongest right now and splash damage is essentially mandatory? I just feel like something like this would be insanely greedy and would die to any standard zerg all-in. Protoss is gas starved as is most games. Maybe transitioning into phoenix off a successful 3 base opening against an unprepared zerg but opening phoenix from the start sounds like you would be spread far too thin and would rely heavily on the opponent being completely off-guard to cause serious damage.
And I did try phoenix-heavy play in beta after the buff because at the time many zergs were going mass muta anyway, not to the level you are suggesting but probably 15-20 phoenixes. I went 2 stargate phoenix with charge zealots after taking a third. It worked if they went muta/ling, pure speed hydra, or hydra/ling, but if they went roach/hydra or roach/ling off 3 bases as an all-in there simply was not any way to stop it outside of a miracle because they could overwhelm you and cause severe damage before you could do anything, cannons only go so far with defense. Roaches with armour upgrades take forever for phoenixes to kill. You could harass all you like but the main Zerg army would still be too strong without splash. Roaches can't shoot up but they can target down your production and cripple you economically by the time you deal with them.
I use phoenixes in all 3 matches. I know how strong they are. They are absolutely amazing in early-midgame PvZ, and in PvT if used correctly, but they become obsolete the later the game goes. Lategame Zerg armies have ultras, mass hydra, corruptors, infestors, queens, swarmhosts, overseers. I play both Protoss and Zerg, and I know that if I saw mass phoenix composition with cannons to defend, as a Zerg, I would treat it like mech. Mass expand, spines and spores at every base, tech to the lategame quickly because I unlike the standard airtoss compositions now, a phoenix-based late-game composition is much weaker than a tempest, voidray or carrier-based composition (especially current voidray compositions, but those might be patched).
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Just played a high master terran...I thought I played well got all my upgrades, switched to HT at the correct time but even with a superior army I kind of just got rolled late once ghost come. if someone could take a look at my replay and let me know what I did wrong?
http://drop.sc/317549
Thanks!
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On April 04 2013 03:12 nomyx wrote:
What's the most safe build for Protoss vs Random? Obviously FFE is out of the question. I usually go for the standard gate-core and then react based on what my opponent's race is, but these last few games I've come across a 10/10 gas/pool build thrice, multiple 11/11 and other cheeses. Should I just wall off with gate/core like in the old pvz days?
I usually just open standard 13 gate timing with 1 gas and scout after I place my gateway. I haven't run into any trouble using this build yet. Obviously if he's Zerg and fast hatches, then you need to apply pressure. If he gets a pool, just 1gate expo with a safe simcity. There's really not much more cheese potential in playing against random, since vs. Protoss and Terran you're opening the same anyways, and vs. Zerg you can defend a fast pool with good control and come out ahead. I'd recommend not building your pylon/gateway/core at your ramp, because if you do, they're going to be easy targets for any cheesers, plus put your zealots way away from your mineral line if you need to defend against zerglings.
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On April 04 2013 03:28 nGBeast wrote:Just played a high master terran...I thought I played well got all my upgrades, switched to HT at the correct time but even with a superior army I kind of just got rolled late once ghost come. if someone could take a look at my replay and let me know what I did wrong? http://drop.sc/317549Thanks!
I watched your replay. I am a mid masters Protoss.
One of the biggest things I see in this replay is that you don't have enough probes. 48 probes at the 14 minute mark after a 1gate expand is very very bad, considering you haven't suffered any eco damage or been pressured substantially this game. Also, while I also get cannons around my mineral line vs. Terran(especially if I think widow mines are coming), I think your cannons are a bit premature and a waste of early game minerals. I would recommend getting your robo significantly earlier, before you add any gateways. I almost always go 1gate expo, robo, gas, then more gateways and I have found this build to be perfectly safe with good control at your natural. This allows you a chance to get out early observers(I usually get at least 2), which will shut down any early game widow mines and also allow you to scout. This is a much more efficient approach early in the game, and you can add those cannons at your minerals lines a little later down the road when you don't want your observer positions confined as tightly.
I don't know what you're doing with your hotkeys but you probably need to alter it. I'm looking at your hotkeys and it shows 2 for warpgates & 3 through 6 for Nexus. What do you use for army control? I guess you do add some on at some points in the game, but your hotkeying looks like it needs work. I usually put templars, sentries, and MSC all on different keys. You also don't have your robo/stargates hotkeyed apparently?
At the 20 minute mark you're attacking into a perfect concave for him while you're supply blocked with an excess of minerals. You really need to be going up more gateways here and dumping minerals on zealots. This engagement is a disaster and it's a major factor to why you lost this game. In a PvT you never want to allow a Terran to surround your army.
Again, I'm going to have to go back to the probe thing. Your economy is way too weak in this game. You're sitting on like 56 probes in an end game situation. You're looking for more along the 70-75 range, especially if you can control 3 bases.
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hi
not sure if this fits the thread but:
I play toss in a PZ 2on2 team and i have some questions considering early bo's (background: have played 2on2 (with this ally) since BW, but mostly for fun (we were top 10 europe in wc3 for a short period of time, master in wol, now mid diamond. my questions will be very basic because now with hots i decided to switch from Z to P, my ally switched from T to Z)
Im looking for flexible 1 base openings (my Z ally almost always takes the natural) which dont leave me too stuck in the tech tree. i often times have trouble mid game finding the right tech tree (and being stuck for quite a while on 1 base makes it hard to go for different tech options at once). so i figured its best to stay on gates only until after the first attack or defend happens and then op for either templar or robotics?
The problems i see is that stalker feel really meh mid game, templars being really gas intensive (again late 2 base problem) but robotics units are very vulnerable to air / being countered).
I really liked oracle harrass (because our low level opponents respond so horribly to it) at first but i feel like that single stargate is not doing much and later on and a few voidrays are coutnered too easily in a 2on2 setting (and carrier/tempest is for the very late game)
Maybe the problems all come down to me being on 1 base so long but i feel that we are very vulnerable to timings when i expand too fast myself (and Z taking natural makes the most sense imo since he needs 2nd hatch anyway etc.) also this would force us to play very passive (imo) which kind of wastes the early push potential with my zerg ally (i feel that zerg units fall off early midgame, especially zerlings (thoughts?))
So a good, safe delayed expand build would be awesome as well 
Any experienced 2on2 protoss players willing to share some opinion? are there any sites where i can specifically search for 2on2 hots replays?
thanks!
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On April 04 2013 01:34 Payson wrote:
Mid Masters Protoss with quick question for PvT. Does anyone have a set Of replays or VoDs of the DT Drop into double forge build Artosis talked about on State of the Game? I've been trying variations from word of mouth but would love to see first hand what the build looks like from a high level player.
IIRC MC used to do this a lot of the time, basically you drop DT's when terran moves out with his 10 minute medivac timing, and defend with chargelot + DT while you tech to your AoE and chrono out upgrades. Think of it as a double forge build, but you forsake getting 1-1 in time for the 10 minute attack. Instead you go TC and robobay (or TA, your choice) earlier and counterattack + defend with a cost effective gateway army, and get the upgrades a little later. I don't have the VODs but I think MC did the build quite a bit in the first tourny he was in after his big slump, this was still during WoL days.
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On April 04 2013 03:28 nGBeast wrote:Just played a high master terran...I thought I played well got all my upgrades, switched to HT at the correct time but even with a superior army I kind of just got rolled late once ghost come. if someone could take a look at my replay and let me know what I did wrong? http://drop.sc/317549Thanks!
You didn't have a superior army. The obscene problems I saw have already been mentioned (lack of workers etc), so I won't go into too much detail about those. However, you do have some fundamental misunderstandings of macro PvT, specifically how to use a double forge build.
The double forge build, as KCDC would say, is all about dropping a protoss sledgehammer on the terran's back at 18 minutes. The whole idea revolves around getting 3-3 and attacking the instant you get it, while terran is still 2-2 or sometimes 1-1. Some reasons why this works:
1. It's time to establish a 4th, you're attacking, so get it
2. Storm is ready and you have a good counterattack defense with templar
3. General armor + GS math blabla marines do no damage
The evolution of double forge builds has allowed protoss players to get those forges very early and still survive terran timings, which is why they're so popular. However, your build is all out of whack. You get one forge very early, early enough to dictate some sort of all in based around an armor upgrade or two. That's what first came to mind when I saw a forge that early. Anyways, in getting the forge that early, you've delayed your robo and your scouting, so now you've pidgeonholed yourself into being paranoid and making cannons everywhere for widow mines or drops that you don't know are coming. You also have some crucial supply blocks around 50 food.
The late robo means a late observer which means the first one gets to his base just in time to do nothing. Luckily with a sprint to colossi you held off the 10 minute attack, but this cost you your twilight council and further pushed back the 3-3 timing you're supposed to be hitting. Your lack of observers in the drop lanes is also disturbing.
All of this snowballed to the point where you initiated a fight with a bad composition against a terran with superior positioning and equal upgrades. As you were retreating your 3-3 finished, making your whole double forge centric build order pointless. It was at this point that the game was definitively lost for you.
Another big issue is your composition, you have way too few zealots/sentries and way too many stalkers. Stalkers exist for the singular purpose of killing his vikings. You need no more than 5 in the early game, 8 in the midgame, and 12 in the late game. Here's what the ideal PvT composition vs bio looks like.
65 workers
12 stalkers
4 sentries
3 colossi
MSC
3 obs for spotting (one on his army, one in each drop lane)
DT's at towers
X amount of obs in your army
5-8 templar
2 prisms
defensive templar as needed
The rest in zealots, you should have something like 30, or 20 something and some archons.
Why this? 65 workers = 16 per base for 3 bases + enough to mine gas, you can get some more in the late game for more gas if you're comfy with it. 12 stalkers is all you'll need to deal with any amount of vikings ever. 4 sentries is just standard business. 3 colossi because the magic number for colossi is 3, terran can never really deal with this properly. Either he undermakes vikings and dies to colossi, or he overmakes them and dies to storm. 3 obs are self explanatory, DT are self explanatory, so are the templar in your army. 2 prisms are for reinforcement and harass. There's no magic number for zealots, just get a ton.
Some issues I noticed:
TC is late, get it when first upgrade is half done.
You don't rebuild colossi when they die.
Gas at your third was never saturated.
You don't rebuild MSC or sentries after you lose them.
Gateways sitting idle instead of being morphed and used.
Tons of chrono.
Here's how to double forge PvT vs bio in a nutshell:
Do some kind of early expand with scouting and detection
7:30 ish double gas at natural
8:30 ish double forge
Get something in his base when forges are halfway done
If bio with 10 minute attack, get 3 gates, go blink first, delay colossi in favor of units
If bio with all in, get DT shrine and charge, dump everything into units, forget 2-2
If bio with fast third, stay on 3 gates and dump everything into probes, upgrades, and fast colossi, get third, split and defend
If not bio, cancel 1 forge and react
Whew.
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On April 04 2013 01:34 Payson wrote:
Mid Masters Protoss with quick question for PvT. Does anyone have a set Of replays or VoDs of the DT Drop into double forge build Artosis talked about on State of the Game? I've been trying variations from word of mouth but would love to see first hand what the build looks like from a high level player.
Posted this earlier in the thread, I think this is the build you're looking for:
+ Show Spoiler +
MVP Tails PvT MMC Dark templar expand
(2x chrono nexus)
13 gate
15 double gas
(2 probes in each gas)
16 pylon
(chrono nexus)
18 cybernetics core
(chrono nexus)
19 zealot (note you can only start this if you don't scout, if you scout after gateway just cancel this step)
(chrono nexus)
(cancel zealot when core finishes (unless funky stuff incoming))
23 warp gate
23 mothership core
(stop probe production)
23 nexus
(3 probes in each gas now)
(resume probe production)
(chrono nexus)
(chrono warp gate)
25 robo
25 twillight
25 pylon
26 stalker
30 warp prism (chrono)
32 dark shrine
36 observer
36 gateway
pylon
warp in 2dts in his main at 07:23
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Mid masters NA Protoss here.
What the HELL am I supposed to do about all of the Terrans going mech? What type of comp is good against mech these days? Immortal/Collosus/Chargelot used to wipe it up, but now it's much less viable. Sky toss? Thanks all.
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I'm having a ton of trouble against mass mutas now in pvz. I used to feel a little bit more confident using blink stalkers and just attacking them straight up in WoL (I took about a year break but was masters before). Seems like my stalker ball is getting completely destroyed in a straight up battle with mutas. Is this just Zerg players getting better over time or was there some fundamental change to the units I missed? Seems like mass Phoenix is the only way to really combat mass muta now. Is this correct? I know Phoenix out range and are faster than mutas but I think it's a little unrealistic to think anyone has the time to micro THAT intensely to kill the mutas while severely out numbered. Your macro would go to hell pretty much.
I guess my main question is: is the only answer to mass muta double or triple stargate Phoenix?
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Northern Ireland23760 Posts
RSVP has posted on this a couple of times. You have to be diligent in your scouting, but if you are you can reactively go double stargate and be ok against Mutas, or triple if you so which and he advocates Phoenixes as the 'better' counter at present.
The old defence of chipping away at Muta balls with blink stalkers bit by bit and waiting for storm isn't so good anymore due to their regen.
In my limited experience, this is pretty much 100% on the money. There's also certain maps where mutas can abuse airspace in a way that even blink stalkers will struggle with.
In addition, stargate tech has real late-game value now, so you are a bit less vulnerable in that sense
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Northern Ireland23760 Posts
On April 04 2013 08:53 Nuclease wrote:
Mid masters NA Protoss here.
What the HELL am I supposed to do about all of the Terrans going mech? What type of comp is good against mech these days? Immortal/Collosus/Chargelot used to wipe it up, but now it's much less viable. Sky toss? Thanks all.
You have to tailor your mix depending what they are doing. If they are putting in a good few hellbats I'd say cut out Zealots for the most part. Use blink stalkers aggressively (but sensibly) to pop in, snipe even single units, blink back, force sieges and slow their advance. Use blink stalkers to try and snipe missile turrets and the likes at outlying bases as it will enable future harassment at said locations with prisms/DTs or what have you.
Don't be afraid to go much heavier in the robo tech units, you don't necessarily need a shitload of gateways and double robo to combat certain mech comps it is prudent to make a lot more robos than you would vs bio for a variety of reasons.
For the super lategame scenario, I have yet to really see a mech composition that can beat skytoss/templar cost-efficiently if you engage properly.
I find you can just out-expand them and win the war of attrition if they are going 'straight-up' mech, if they are gearing up for a specific 2 base timing with mech units, that requires a different response.
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Masters player here, don't mean to be elitist but I'm asking really specific stuff so I'd appreciate someone better/around same level than me that has succcess with this answering ^^ I'm having a ton of trouble with drops in PvT, so I've decided to try stargate openings with phoenix for map control, but it feels REALLY weak early on, I'm talking really weak... feel like I could die to anything lol. TL please help me:
I generally like to open 2 gas 1 gate FE, with two stalkers and a mothership core before the expansion. After the expo I typically chrono out 5 phoenixes while going up to 3 gates, and stop phoenix production there. I use the phoenixes for map control and drop control, while trying to transition to colossi. The problem is that, like I said before, I feel any stim timing or stuff like that could kill me. I don't have the money to get more than 3 gates really, and I'm not really sure when to take my 2 gases at the natural after expanding. How many phoenixes do you usually get for builds like this? And should I chrono out an oracle before the phoenixes for harrass all the time? How do you deal with 8-12 minute pushes before colossi can come out? How do you power up and transition from there? I can't seem to fit forge upgrades anywhere in this build, and I'm going zealot heavy since it's gas incentive, so armor upgrades are a must but I just can't seem to get them in there.
Any help?
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EPT
