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On April 05 2013 10:28 Heheggg wrote:
How do you counter hydra/bit of roach swarmhost agreesion? I can stop a early push with high templars even though is not very practical, but when the zerg reaches about over 10 swarmhosts, my land army is too busy clearing out waves of locusts while my VR/few carriers is too busy cleaning out the hydras. It seems that I need a good amount of carriers/tempests in order to break this build, however I just can't seem to get the right amount when the zerg pushes.
Oracles seems like a good choice, anyone has help or suggestions? (PS. Iam defending the push with around 3-4 bases.)
A replay or at least telling us your whole composition/build would help. In general though most people seem to use collosi supplemented by storms to deal with the locusts and hydras, while sending a warp prism or warps of 10 zealots to clean up zerg's newer bases and apply pressure.
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Question about PvT
So I was reading OP and when you go 1 gate expand -> robo -> gw gw and scout double ebay, the OP mentions taking a fast third is a tough call because the 2/2 viking timings.
I know when protoss opens that way (gw,nexus,robo,gw,gw) vs triple cc it's viable to drop down 3 more gates and go for a 3 col 6-7 gate all in. Was curious if this is viable vs fast double ebay as well, since the starport tech is usually delayed.
Otherwise I think storm is the only reliable way to hold off those 2/2 timings (esp with scv pull)? It seems even if you stay on 2 base double forge while going col tech you lose
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What maps are good to veto this season for a Protoss playing standard styles, and why?
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I have Star Station, Korhal City, and Newkirk Precinct vetoed.
Star Station - very large 4 player map, scouting early takes a long time and is generally a pain, really hard to take an early third vs Zerg, lots of open space so Terran/Zerg can get good arcs around you.
Korhal City - very large 4 player map. HUGE air space around your base makes spotting drops very difficult. You'll need a LOT of observers to cover every angle and even then with the speed boost, Medivacs can still get in if you're not paying 100% attention. Also, the 4th is a bit far. Terran can drop from 4th to main.. short distance by air but very long by ground for the defending player.
Newkirk Precinct - same as above. The ramp is very large making FFE a pain (doable, but still a pain) and the main base is absolutely huge. Lots of room for Terran to drop.
Would also consider vetoing Neo Planet S as the 3rd is VERY hard to hold vs. an aggressive Zerg or Terran player. Right now since I only have 3 vetos I begrudging play Neo Planet....
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Italy12246 Posts
On April 05 2013 12:16 ant885 wrote:
Question about PvT
So I was reading OP and when you go 1 gate expand -> robo -> gw gw and scout double ebay, the OP mentions taking a fast third is a tough call because the 2/2 viking timings.
I know when protoss opens that way (gw,nexus,robo,gw,gw) vs triple cc it's viable to drop down 3 more gates and go for a 3 col 6-7 gate all in. Was curious if this is viable vs fast double ebay as well, since the starport tech is usually delayed.
Otherwise I think storm is the only reliable way to hold off those 2/2 timings (esp with scv pull)? It seems even if you stay on 2 base double forge while going col tech you lose
I suppose you could try yeah. Personally i am not a big fan of those delayed allins with tech like storm/archon/colo because at that point the medivacs are already on the map and moving out is really hard; if you can absolutely make sure you know where every medivac is (ie, floating on his bio instead of dropping somewhere) then you might go for it yeah.
On April 05 2013 13:40 Salivanth wrote:
What maps are good to veto this season for a Protoss playing standard styles, and why?
Korhal City: bullshit ramp makes PvP unplayable. This one is a must imo.
Other maps that i find annoying:
Star Station: I suck on maps where blink/obs is the best build; also the third is incredibly hard to hold vs Z.
Newkirk Prescint: tons of air space as the poster above me pointed out.
Bel'shir Vestige: hard third vs Z, although it's not as hard as Star Station in some spawning positions.
I ended up vetoing just Korhal City and Star Station.
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So... A brief introduction on who i am and what I'm about: My name is DeCiBle (code 275) and I was maining zerg through WoL. Heading into HotS i wanted to try the different races out first-hand and get a feel for all 9 match ups. I met a random player who wanted me to help him learn protoss when i was laddering through bronze and i've kind of picked him up under my wing.
I'm currently trying to teach a him how to play Protoss vs Zerg. He just picked up the game and doesn't have any previous RTS experience; that said: he's picked it up handily, considering he's only been playing all of a couple weeks now and this is his only real RTS experience so far. He makes probes constantly and tries to expand as rapidly as possible. His big issue macro-wise is he keeps getting supply blocked and he is still figuring how to dump floating minerals as P.
I'm trying to show him how mid-late game PvZ looks, but I've hit a snag in teaching him protoss - He can't seem to deal with old stephano-style roaches well. No matter how i alter the build or give him tips and no matter how much he improves, it seems to go like this:
I macro til 12 mins
deflect any drops/harass/DTs/zealot runbys/cannon rushes/ proxy warp-ins/warp prism harass he's sent without taking much of a hit
I make roaches
i bulldoze through his front and win.
I've hit him with the same timing over and over and I keep just crushing him... It kinda feels bad now, and i really want him to hold this off because it's still a very common opener (albeit way harder with swarm hosts added in etc. etc. etc.) But I'm just hitting him with roaches.
I've told him to give me some pressure early and try to challenge my map control and not to let me just play super greedy into the late game, but he keeps hitting snags.
His pressure is easy to scout and react to. His army control interferes with his build. he loses a lot of units he doesn't need to (his scouting worker... like every game)... stuff like that.
He's learned that early zealots can secure the xel naga towers from my early 4 lings. He's also gotten somewhat keen to hiding pylons around the map here and there.
But the real issue is that i haven't really felt pressured. When he goes stargate it feels like it comes out way too late and doesn't do any damage. I'm usually floating a lot of minerals myself by this point so i can throw down spres everywhere without taking too much of a hit, and that basically stops the stargate harass dead in it's tracks. From there it feels like i can just send roaches at him infinitely and he just can't keep up and gets crushed.
When i goes robo he kind of just sits in his base all game and macros until i show up and plow through his army or starve him out on 2 bases.
Where he is kind of easy to bully into his base and starve out, Ps I play on ladder tend to get a lot of harassers out and keep me bouncing back and forth between bases, challenging my 3rd while they macro, and in general are just nuisances i need to keep checking on all the time.
I'm lost because it seems like no matter what build he goes or what approach he does it gets shut down easily. prisms and phoenix come out too late. ground pushes are cleaned up by basic queen/drone micro and maybe a crawler. Any time he takes a greedy 3rd i just stomp on it. Delayed expos never happen because i can just park my roaches outside his nat and he'll never leave his base.
I know his macro is a big factor, but i don't even have conviction the things i'm telling him are strategically sound.
In a nutshell: What do i tell him in terms of dealing with mass roach off 3 bases? What builds should i lead him towards vs Z in general? How do i better help him improve army control and comfort moving around the map and not being stuck in his base all game in fear?
He is a big fan of safe/macro heavy builds and tactics that take it to the late game and end up with him having a big death ball, so anything that eventually leads there is what i'm aiming to show him - that said: it seems like he needs to do some early damage against what i've been throwing at him, and all his attempts to do a "safe, low-risk high reward early game poke that doesn't translate into an all in" have ended up being big losses and gambles. Is this just kind of inherent in protoss play, or is there a standard style where you can express map control vs Z without being all-in?
attached are 5 of the most recent replays. The first is a bit long and you can stop it early because i just kind of sit by and chat with him on skype at the end.
My big questions are really:
Is he making the right stuff (unit mixes, number of production facilities, gas)?
Is he doing it in the right order (BO flaws)?
Is there a major underlying flaw with his approach to the mid/late game (positioning, army control, posturing, vision control)?
Is there a way he could be doing this more streamlined/better (small timing mistakes/supply count mistakes/ chrono)?
What is the best way to show him and test his ability to take a 3rd base? (what build should i throw at him for this?)
I understand his macro needs work and his unit control is still infantile, but aside from that, does he actually have the right idea in mind for this match up? Have i been telling him the right approach?
I wish i had more insight to this, but i've kind of hit a wall as the best i can tell him is "macro better and pressure me harder earlier; don't delay your tech and use the map control you get from clearing the xel naga towers to plant proxy pylons or pull shenanigans" But that's it.
Also he's a fan of Phoenixes and of DTs.
http://drop.sc/318115
http://drop.sc/318114
http://drop.sc/318113
http://drop.sc/318112
PS: We ran through responding to a scouted 7 pool after opening FFE. I told him pylon in the mineral line and a cannon covering as much as possible then rebuild forge and gateway. Is this correct? He seemed so far behind into the mid game and I'm not sure if there's a more aggressive path or something to punish a zerg who goes greedy behind a 7 pool. (I can fish up the replays later)
PPS: I've been telling him double chorno'd stargate phoenix are the answer to scouting spire. Is this correct? It holds it off, but then he has a bunch of phoenix lying around and post-muta they seem kind of useless...
Also: Around what time would normal harass come out? I don't have any mental benchmarks to compare his to. As a Z in the match up I'm usually just macroing my heart out and keeping my eyes peeled to see what comes. I can't actually say or see if his harassment is delayed or not, and if so by how much.
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On April 05 2013 13:40 Salivanth wrote:
What maps are good to veto this season for a Protoss playing standard styles, and why? I'd go with Neo Planet S, Newkirk, and that map with the double base (Korhal City or something?).
My reasoning is this:
Neo Planet S: Third is a nightmare versus a zerg who is active with their units and actually tries to deny it. Against Terran it is very easy to be forced into a difficult position with drops between the third and main.
Newkirk: Tons of open air for drops and mutas, frustrating to take third (It's doable but a pain). It goes into split map if you survive past the 10 minute mark, which isn't very fun for me. I don't like how walling off on it works.
Korhal Something-Something: Terrible all around. PvP is a nightmare. PvT drops are tough because of all the open air. It is really easy to get contained on. Third is easy to take but susceptible to drops and mutas, even more so than most other maps. Hugely open so against Zerg you have to go around the edges or you are taking a massive risk of getting surrounded and outright losing (I learned this the hard way). Overall just kinda bad.
Honourable mentions:
Star Station: incredibly tough third versus zerg, drops are very strong, PvP is blink wars. I don't have it vetoed because I hate Neo Planet S more.
Bel'Shir Vestige: unpleasant to play against Zerg on. Tough to pressure on but also tricky to take a third if they go for anything pressure-based. It feels like Ohana but without the ability to counterattack properly. I switch between vetoing this and Korhal.
Whirlwind: I don't mind it but a lot of people find it uncomfortable to play on. It can be tough to be greedy against Zerg, but they can be greedy against you. If you want to learn how to play on this map then watch White-Ra. Before watching him I almost never won on this map. Now I do quite a lot.
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On April 05 2013 13:40 Salivanth wrote:
What maps are good to veto this season for a Protoss playing standard styles, and why?
I think korhal and star station like most others, they are just bad maps imo. Neo planet aint that good with such a strange map layout, but often games are interesting/fun so i keep it for now. Bel'shir is hard with the spread out bases in my opinion, but it's not vetoed by me.
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Northern Ireland25081 Posts
I'd untick as many 2 player maps as you can get away with. The amount of blind cheese, especially in PvP makes for bad games in which you learn nothing from even if you win.
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Haven't played since WoL maybe 1.5 - 2 years ago, was high masters back then plat now and the game seems the same, not that much has changed except that air is now good? I get in my games a lot of whine targetted at "Skytoss" so i wonder is this simply unit composition or is it some kind of balls to the walls stargate opening?
Like it was common to go FFE into 2x stargates and pump some voidrays out for early damage back in the days ala MC but you transitioned out of it. Does airbuilds also utilize oracles in the early game, they any good?
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On April 06 2013 02:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'd untick as many 2 player maps as you can get away with. The amount of blind cheese, especially in PvP makes for bad games in which you learn nothing from even if you win.
This is what I do. The number of proxy 2gates I get on 2 player maps make me just deal with the slightly worse 4 player maps as best I can.
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I think that cheese avoidance is a bad reason to veto a map. I haven't experienced a cheese yet that I couldn't beat with proper control. I also don't scout until 14 and play economically every game.
Out of curiosity, what cheeses are you guys losing to? I'm in mid masters and have had no problem deflecting 2rax all-in with SCV + bunker, proxy gates, daybreak cannon rush, 6 pool, etc from other masters players. These usually just end up being easy wins for me. 95% of these are wins. The only thing that I've found tough to deal with with is FFE vs. early pool, which is actually harder to deal with on a 4player map because on a 2 player map you will be prepared after your 9scout rather than playing blind on a 4 player map.
I've been able to deflect all cheese with a simple 13 gate with standard core timing. I just make a zealot if I see cheese, followed by stalkers and a MSC and adding more gateways as I can afford. Haven't lost to any marine/reaper/zealot/cannon foolery yet.
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On April 06 2013 02:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'd untick as many 2 player maps as you can get away with. The amount of blind cheese, especially in PvP makes for bad games in which you learn nothing from even if you win. I have thought about doing this, but haven't yet because I feel like the PvZ stuff outweighs this in terms of annoyingness. PvP is getting really cheesy at the level I am at (low master) but I have all the 2 player maps unvetoed except Newkirk. Of my last 10 games, I've had 4 games of cannon rushes, two proxy gate builds, two weird super fast mothership core rushes (that is so strong. wow. They do that while doing a super fast 3gate zealot-heavy all-in and it is hard to not die. They timewarp your mineral line and then overwhelm you with units since your economy is now garbage. I've faced this on Newkirk and Daybreak). People are cannon rushing on any map it seems like. A guy scouted me when I was at 9 supply one time on Star Station and then tried to cannon rush me but it was so blatantly obvious that I just threw down a forge and counter cannon rushed him and won. It is getting quite tiring. I win most of the time but I have limited time to play and would rather avoid cheese games when possible.
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:58 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 02:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'd untick as many 2 player maps as you can get away with. The amount of blind cheese, especially in PvP makes for bad games in which you learn nothing from even if you win. I have thought about doing this, but haven't yet because I feel like the PvZ stuff outweighs this in terms of annoyingness. PvP is getting really cheesy at the level I am at (low master) but I have all the 2 player maps unvetoed except Newkirk. Of my last 10 games, I've had 4 games of cannon rushes, two proxy gate builds, two weird super fast mothership core rushes (that is so strong. wow. They do that while doing a super fast 3gate zealot-heavy all-in and it is hard to not die. They timewarp your mineral line and then overwhelm you with units since your economy is now garbage. I've faced this on Newkirk and Daybreak). People are cannon rushing on any map it seems like. A guy scouted me when I was at 9 supply one time on Star Station and then tried to cannon rush me but it was so blatantly obvious that I just threw down a forge and counter cannon rushed him and won. It is getting quite tiring. I win most of the time but I have limited time to play and would rather avoid cheese games when possible.
If anything I'd say that's because most people have no idea whatsoever how to play PvP at the moment. It's a pretty simple thought. Don't know how a matchup works? Let the pros figure it out, meanwhile let me do proven cheese to avoid a macro game I'd otherwise very likely lose.
It's even getting to me because I get really really silly BO losses and I have no idea how to play PvP atm compared to WoL where it was arguably my best matchup. But hey, I try the macro still. I'm one of those people who randomly throws down double stargate and starts pumping void rays.
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On April 06 2013 03:52 SteveNick wrote:
I think that cheese avoidance is a bad reason to veto a map. I haven't experienced a cheese yet that I couldn't beat with proper control. I also don't scout until 14 and play economically every game.
I really have to agree with what you said and i think it's a useful talent "toi" have, to hold these builds.
I vetoed all maps but one and the reason is the 4 Gate.
If youre completely honest you have to admit the ramp of Korhal is pretty bad, you actually cant hold a 4-Gate off 1 gateway since the ramp is way to big to forcefield. I think its pretty good for all protoss, that want to improve their pvp to veto this map, unless you wanna test how good your 3 stalker rush 4 gate defense is (or you just want to 4 gate or 11 gate 3 gate most games aswell).
The reason i bring this up is, that Korhal is limiting the pvp builds you will face and you can play, i generally dislike that.
So the orginal question: i would veto Korhal for sure, the other maps as he wishes, personally i play all of them (except Korhal) because some of them are a bit more challenging and you face a huge diversity of builds wich should really improve your play.
At least thats my opinion gl hf
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I think with good scouting, especially on a 2 player map where you know where your opponent is, proxy gates in PvP shouldn't be nearly as much of an issue for map selection as ability to take a 3rd, openness to drops etc. Plus with mothership core, it's fairly easy to stop these kinds of allins. I had someone 4 gate me and somehow manage to sneak a pylon in my base, and I still defended it losing nothing (I am in Masters).
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hello guys i think this is a thread where i can ask something, so i might do it right now.
i am playing masters in my division my stats are 62% against toss 60% against terran and 40% against zerg.
right now everyone says zerg doesnt feel comfortable against toss, but i just cant win so here are my questions:
what is a standard opening right now against zerg (i do still prefer the phoenix opening) ?
at what time do i have to take my third? (i do it quite late in my opinion)
what is the strongest composition against zerg right now when you are on 3 bases?
the last question is what do i need to do against a swarmhost contain?
ty guys in advance
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I am trying to figure out how to adapt MC's 1 gate FE :
- should I skip 18 zealot for an MSC (after core complete) and replace zealot production with 2nd assimilator on order to get enough gas for both MSC and 1st stalker (22 stalker) ?
thanks
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On April 06 2013 06:10 ShaolinZorg wrote:I am trying to figure out how to adapt MC's 1 gate FE : - should I skip 18 zealot for an MSC (after core complete) and replace zealot production with 2nd assimilator on order to get enough gas for both MSC and 1st stalker (22 stalker) ? thanks
Delay WG tech a few seconds to get zealot/stalker/msc out at 26 supply, while building pylon and nexus, if u want to be abit agressive that is!
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EPT
