• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:04
CEST 06:04
KST 13:04
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation5$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced4Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles5[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing
Tourneys
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
i aint gon lie to u bruh... ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall SC uni coach streams logging into betting site
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 594 users

The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 46

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 44 45 46 47 48 367 Next
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
LardMaster
Profile Joined May 2012
United Kingdom123 Posts
April 06 2013 19:19 GMT
#901
Hello. I was wondering if any kind soul who owns a GSL ticket would be able to watch Creator's game against Crazy on Daybreak from April 4th where he plays skytoss. I have a real interest in skytoss and haven't found a proper guide on it for HotS, and would really interested to know what he does and his opening build. I have summarised Stork's skytoss build from proleague today but I would love to analyse Creator's too, but I'm too poor thanks in advance everyone <3
ThaReckoning
Profile Joined January 2011
United States197 Posts
April 06 2013 19:57 GMT
#902
On April 07 2013 01:29 Mellon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2013 16:24 ThaReckoning wrote:
So how is everyone dealing with the good old 2 base swarmhost nydus all in? I find that a reactionary double robo doesn't cut it at all anymore, as it takes 10-12 colossi just to break out of this, plenty of time for zerg to drone up and get 5-6 bases, corruptors, etc. There just isn't the money on 2 bases to deal with it with a double robo, has anyone come up with anything new?


I just feel like anything reactionary vs zerg is bound to be a lost game. U need to have insane scouting to stay ahead, if u do however, you will have a really insane chance. But if you start making colossi after he is doing his push the game is already lost. Same with mutas, if u start adding stargates after u see mutas, game is over. Even if you break out, you are fighting vs a zerg with 5 bases while u might have 2½ or 3.


It's not that I react to it when it's out, I see the infestation pit and hydra den going down, and drop 2 robos immediately. It's just a beast to even survive the initial contain, much less break out against it.
If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose.
ShaolinZorg
Profile Joined February 2013
Belgium47 Posts
April 06 2013 20:27 GMT
#903
about 1gate FE, could someone tell me which one is the best to learn (I am a beginner) kcdc or MC ?

what are the differences between these versions ?

thanks !
Qui veut voyager loin ménage sa monture
SkyBlaze
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada191 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-06 21:22:35
April 06 2013 20:59 GMT
#904
On April 07 2013 05:27 ShaolinZorg wrote:
about 1gate FE, could someone tell me which one is the best to learn (I am a beginner) kcdc or MC ?

what are the differences between these versions ?

thanks !


KCDC 1gate FE is safer due to sentry but MC 1gate FE can be used for pressure. but both builds are kinda out of date. With HoTS having MCS.

here's the new FE protoss use now,
9 pylon
13gate (scout here if on 4 player map) (no scout on 2 player maps can be done due to MSC scout)
15 gas gas (2 in each)
16 pylon
19 zealot
20 core
send probe to nat at 21 check for block (engineering bay block)
cancel zealot if you see no engineering bay block, if e-bay is made let zealot finish and send to it,
22 nexus (nexus should be down by 3:55mins or 4mins)
23 MSC ( when done send to terran base) (chrono for reaper def)
put the rest of the probes into gas for 3 in each
24 pylon
24 stalker (chrono for fast reaper def)
warpgate tech here (no chrono unless you doing a warpgate timing)
26 robo gate gate or gate gate robo (robo first is good for when you see a factory and a starport early Generally safe) (gate first is good for hold rax units early or even punishing Fast 3 CC's terrans generally used for pressure)

this is would i can see for now. build can change a bit depending on scouting info
| (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ | ┻━┻ ︵╰(°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
LardMaster
Profile Joined May 2012
United Kingdom123 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-06 21:06:17
April 06 2013 21:05 GMT
#905
Nevermind, post above said what I said but better :D
ShaolinZorg
Profile Joined February 2013
Belgium47 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-06 21:19:04
April 06 2013 21:18 GMT
#906
On April 07 2013 05:59 SkyBlaze wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 05:27 ShaolinZorg wrote:
about 1gate FE, could someone tell me which one is the best to learn (I am a beginner) kcdc or MC ?

what are the differences between these versions ?

thanks !


KCDC 1gate FE is safer due to sentry but MC 1gate FE can be used for pressure. but both builds are kinda out of date. With HoTS having MCS.

here's the new FE protoss use now,
9 pylon
13gate (scout here if on 4 player map) (no scout on 2 player maps can be done due to MSC scout)
15 gas gas (2 in each)
16 pylon
19 zealot
20 core
send probe to nat at 21 check for block (engineering bay block)
cancel zealot if you see no engineering bay block, if e-bay is made let zealot finish and send to it,
22 nexus (nexus should be down by 3:55mins or 4mins)
23 MSC ( when done send to terran base) (chrono for reaper def)
put the rest of the probes into gas for 3 in each
24 pylon
24 stalker (chrono for fast reaper def)
warpgate tech here (no chrono unless you doing a warpgate timing)
26 robo

this is would i can see for now. build can change a bit depending on scouting info


thanks a lot, a few questions :

- so, no more need to cut probes ?
- why can you put the nexus so earlier (22) compared to WoL (30), is the MSC permitting that ?
- how would you followup with double forge ?
Qui veut voyager loin ménage sa monture
Valestrum
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States246 Posts
April 06 2013 21:31 GMT
#907
What do I make against / how do I stop a Terran who has ghosts + vikings?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
SkyBlaze
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada191 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-06 21:46:08
April 06 2013 21:32 GMT
#908
On April 07 2013 06:18 ShaolinZorg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 05:59 SkyBlaze wrote:
On April 07 2013 05:27 ShaolinZorg wrote:
about 1gate FE, could someone tell me which one is the best to learn (I am a beginner) kcdc or MC ?

what are the differences between these versions ?

thanks !


KCDC 1gate FE is safer due to sentry but MC 1gate FE can be used for pressure. but both builds are kinda out of date. With HoTS having MCS.

here's the new FE protoss use now,
9 pylon
13gate (scout here if on 4 player map) (no scout on 2 player maps can be done due to MSC scout)
15 gas gas (2 in each)
16 pylon
19 zealot
20 core
send probe to nat at 21 check for block (engineering bay block)
cancel zealot if you see no engineering bay block, if e-bay is made let zealot finish and send to it,
22 nexus (nexus should be down by 3:55mins or 4mins)
23 MSC ( when done send to terran base) (chrono for reaper def)
put the rest of the probes into gas for 3 in each
24 pylon
24 stalker (chrono for fast reaper def)
warpgate tech here (no chrono unless you doing a warpgate timing)
26 robo

this is would i can see for now. build can change a bit depending on scouting info


thanks a lot, a few questions :

- so, no more need to cut probes ?
- why can you put the nexus so earlier (22) compared to WoL (30), is the MSC permitting that ?
- how would you followup with double forge ?


1. you don't need to probe cut at all if you want. pros that probe cut do so for faster tech or faster nexus but not as safe.
2. you can put nexus on 22 due to the fact MSC Spells are really good early to mid game and are decent in the late game. any rax timings are stop due to nexus cannon.
3. if you went double forge drop timings will be hard to hold due to medicav speed boasts, and the different units that might drop out need to be defend differently. mines, hellbats, marine, marauder, best thing i can recmoned for now is leaving 2 stalkers with 1 zealot and obs for both main and naturals. if they drop a lot start building 1-2 cannons and add more as you see fit.
when you live threw all that I personally like colossus(make only 2 with lance, getting charge) better with double forge and than switch into High Templar. when colossus are made first the terran needs to decide between Vikings or medicavs and when you switch to templars that will make it even stronger.
But with all that said i don't like double forge to much not my style of play.

edit~
Lardmaster i'll look at that build for you but i remember artosis doing it the games were really long like 1hr or so.
| (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ | ┻━┻ ︵╰(°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
blooblooblahblah
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4163 Posts
April 06 2013 21:33 GMT
#909
On April 06 2013 19:38 ThaReckoning wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote:
About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus.
I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base.
Any other advice with a fast core ?
i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).


Honestly I still 12 gate and 1 gas PvP. It's a bit greedy to double gas and not scout very thoroughly. It's holdable, you have to pull probes and micro though. If you'd like you can proxy 2gate me in base and I'll stop it with a 13 gate so you can have a replay of how to do it.


There is honestly no reason to go 12 gate in PvP unless ur already committing to something agressive. I remember playing u on ladder saying that the earlier gate was standard in PvP at the end of WoL which imo was not true at all, the PvP metagame evolved a ton, unless u were playing PeaKnuckles and Bonk every game. All cheeses can be held with a 13 gate, the slight delay between a 12 gate and a 13 gate when being cheesed does not really justify going 12 gate every game.
Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
April 06 2013 21:35 GMT
#910
Agree on that. I'm not sure yet about proxy 2gate vs no scout, many other high level p's i've talked to agree that you can hold with a msc but it's never been done in a pro game.
Additionally, pros seem to really delay their scout or not do it at all, so i suppose they also agree.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
ThaReckoning
Profile Joined January 2011
United States197 Posts
April 06 2013 21:37 GMT
#911
On April 07 2013 06:33 blooblooblahblah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2013 19:38 ThaReckoning wrote:
On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote:
About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus.
I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base.
Any other advice with a fast core ?
i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).


Honestly I still 12 gate and 1 gas PvP. It's a bit greedy to double gas and not scout very thoroughly. It's holdable, you have to pull probes and micro though. If you'd like you can proxy 2gate me in base and I'll stop it with a 13 gate so you can have a replay of how to do it.


There is honestly no reason to go 12 gate in PvP unless ur already committing to something agressive. I remember playing u on ladder saying that the earlier gate was standard in PvP at the end of WoL which imo was not true at all, the PvP metagame evolved a ton, unless u were playing PeaKnuckles and Bonk every game. All cheeses can be held with a 13 gate, the slight delay between a 12 gate and a 13 gate when being cheesed does not really justify going 12 gate every game.


The point of 12 gate is the earlier potential zealot, and the potential to do something aggressive if you scout your opponent cutting a ton of corners. The earlier core means earlier MSC etc. Nothing wrong with 12 gating the mu, I have a ton of success with it.
If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose.
SkyBlaze
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada191 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-06 22:00:03
April 06 2013 21:58 GMT
#912
On April 07 2013 04:19 LardMaster wrote:
Hello. I was wondering if any kind soul who owns a GSL ticket would be able to watch Creator's game against Crazy on Daybreak from April 4th where he plays skytoss. I have a real interest in skytoss and haven't found a proper guide on it for HotS, and would really interested to know what he does and his opening build. I have summarised Stork's skytoss build from proleague today but I would love to analyse Creator's too, but I'm too poor thanks in advance everyone <3


here's a rough draft of that build:

9 PYLON (IN BASE MAIN)
NEXUS 16
17 FORGE (IN BASEMAIN)
18 GATE (WALL NAT)
19 CANNON ( at NAT)
20 GAS
21 GAS
26 CORE
27 ZEALOT
31 PYLON
36 WARP TECH
36 SENTRY
38 GAS GAS (at NAT)
38 STARGATE
40 PYLON
42 SENTRY
54 VOIDRAYS
56 PLASMA SHIELDS
56 MSC
56 VOID RAY
58 GATE (wall at nat)
65 AIR WEAPONS
67 PYLON
71 NEXUS
73 2X PYLON
build cannons at 3rd and contiune air production
| (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ | ┻━┻ ︵╰(°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
SteveNick
Profile Joined November 2008
United States304 Posts
April 06 2013 22:26 GMT
#913
On April 07 2013 06:58 SkyBlaze wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 04:19 LardMaster wrote:
Hello. I was wondering if any kind soul who owns a GSL ticket would be able to watch Creator's game against Crazy on Daybreak from April 4th where he plays skytoss. I have a real interest in skytoss and haven't found a proper guide on it for HotS, and would really interested to know what he does and his opening build. I have summarised Stork's skytoss build from proleague today but I would love to analyse Creator's too, but I'm too poor thanks in advance everyone <3


here's a rough draft of that build:

9 PYLON (IN BASE MAIN)
NEXUS 16
17 FORGE (IN BASEMAIN)
18 GATE (WALL NAT)
19 CANNON ( at NAT)
20 GAS
21 GAS
26 CORE
27 ZEALOT
31 PYLON
36 WARP TECH
36 SENTRY
38 GAS GAS (at NAT)
38 STARGATE
40 PYLON
42 SENTRY
54 VOIDRAYS
56 PLASMA SHIELDS
56 MSC
56 VOID RAY
58 GATE (wall at nat)
65 AIR WEAPONS
67 PYLON
71 NEXUS
73 2X PYLON
build cannons at 3rd and contiune air production




9 pylon (in base main)
nexus 16
17 forge (in basemain)
18 gate (wall nat)
19 cannon ( at nat)
20 gas
21 gas
26 core
27 zealot
31 pylon
36 warp tech
36 sentry
38 gas gas (at nat)
38 stargate
40 pylon
42 sentry
54 voidrays
56 plasma shields
56 msc
56 void ray
58 gate (wall at nat)
65 air weapons
67 pylon
71 nexus
73 2x pylon

all caps is really hard to read for some people. hurts my eyes.
It's all fun and games until somebody gets 4gated.
SkyBlaze
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada191 Posts
April 06 2013 22:28 GMT
#914
sorry did'nt notice it was in a txt file which made it all caps.
| (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ | ┻━┻ ︵╰(°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
blooblooblahblah
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4163 Posts
April 06 2013 23:18 GMT
#915
On April 07 2013 06:37 ThaReckoning wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 06:33 blooblooblahblah wrote:
On April 06 2013 19:38 ThaReckoning wrote:
On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote:
About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus.
I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base.
Any other advice with a fast core ?
i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).


Honestly I still 12 gate and 1 gas PvP. It's a bit greedy to double gas and not scout very thoroughly. It's holdable, you have to pull probes and micro though. If you'd like you can proxy 2gate me in base and I'll stop it with a 13 gate so you can have a replay of how to do it.


There is honestly no reason to go 12 gate in PvP unless ur already committing to something agressive. I remember playing u on ladder saying that the earlier gate was standard in PvP at the end of WoL which imo was not true at all, the PvP metagame evolved a ton, unless u were playing PeaKnuckles and Bonk every game. All cheeses can be held with a 13 gate, the slight delay between a 12 gate and a 13 gate when being cheesed does not really justify going 12 gate every game.


The point of 12 gate is the earlier potential zealot, and the potential to do something aggressive if you scout your opponent cutting a ton of corners. The earlier core means earlier MSC etc. Nothing wrong with 12 gating the mu, I have a ton of success with it.


The different between a zealot from a 12 gate and a 13 gate is ridiculously small, unless ur probe scouting early which is pretty uncommon and not worth it imo. Any build u can do of a 12 gate u can do of a 13 gate without any noticeable difference, yet by going 12 gate it means prevents u from double gasing on 15 or 3 stalker rushing (well u can 3 stalker rush but imo it's considerably worse of a 12 gate). I understand there are some slight perks but i firmly believe 13 gate is better, and 12 gate is definitely not the standard (which you told me on ladder, and if u paid any attention to PvP in the last 6 months of WoL that was certainly not the case).
Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25050 Posts
April 06 2013 23:52 GMT
#916
On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote:
About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus.
I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base.
Any other advice with a fast core ?
i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).

On 2 player maps I lay out my base like you would if you were going for an old gate expand vZ.

I get a better eco by not pylon scouting, so I stubbornly persisted in doing this until I could hold proxy 2 gates nearly blind. I Scout with my gate probe and I have time to do a full walloff if I find such shenanigans are going down, just about!
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
ThaReckoning
Profile Joined January 2011
United States197 Posts
April 06 2013 23:56 GMT
#917
On April 07 2013 08:18 blooblooblahblah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 06:37 ThaReckoning wrote:
On April 07 2013 06:33 blooblooblahblah wrote:
On April 06 2013 19:38 ThaReckoning wrote:
On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote:
About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus.
I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base.
Any other advice with a fast core ?
i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).


Honestly I still 12 gate and 1 gas PvP. It's a bit greedy to double gas and not scout very thoroughly. It's holdable, you have to pull probes and micro though. If you'd like you can proxy 2gate me in base and I'll stop it with a 13 gate so you can have a replay of how to do it.


There is honestly no reason to go 12 gate in PvP unless ur already committing to something agressive. I remember playing u on ladder saying that the earlier gate was standard in PvP at the end of WoL which imo was not true at all, the PvP metagame evolved a ton, unless u were playing PeaKnuckles and Bonk every game. All cheeses can be held with a 13 gate, the slight delay between a 12 gate and a 13 gate when being cheesed does not really justify going 12 gate every game.


The point of 12 gate is the earlier potential zealot, and the potential to do something aggressive if you scout your opponent cutting a ton of corners. The earlier core means earlier MSC etc. Nothing wrong with 12 gating the mu, I have a ton of success with it.


The different between a zealot from a 12 gate and a 13 gate is ridiculously small, unless ur probe scouting early which is pretty uncommon and not worth it imo. Any build u can do of a 12 gate u can do of a 13 gate without any noticeable difference, yet by going 12 gate it means prevents u from double gasing on 15 or 3 stalker rushing (well u can 3 stalker rush but imo it's considerably worse of a 12 gate). I understand there are some slight perks but i firmly believe 13 gate is better, and 12 gate is definitely not the standard (which you told me on ladder, and if u paid any attention to PvP in the last 6 months of WoL that was certainly not the case).


The difference matters when you're getting 2gated. I hardly 3 stalker rush ever, it's not necessary anymore with the death of the 4gate, which was a bad thing for PvP. Double gassing on 15 is greedy and should be pretty easily punished, which is why I go 12 gate and punish it all the time. You keep mentioning some throwaway ladder game that I don't even remember, it's irrelevant.

User was warned for bad/wrong advice. Next post below is wrong too.
If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose.
accaris
Profile Joined May 2010
98 Posts
April 07 2013 00:21 GMT
#918
80% of my matches today were PvP, and I lost almost all of them. If I scout a 4-gate right after I put down a Stargate, is there any way to still win? It hits before a Void Ray is even half finished, and I have maybe 3 Stalkers at most. Do I cancel the Stargate and try and do my own 4-gate? Also, versus P, I can usually defend against 1 Oracle, but when they unexpectedly send 3-4, my economy crumbles. I feel like if I don't skip MSC, I lose the Stalker count.
blooblooblahblah
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4163 Posts
April 07 2013 00:25 GMT
#919
On April 07 2013 08:56 ThaReckoning wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 08:18 blooblooblahblah wrote:
On April 07 2013 06:37 ThaReckoning wrote:
On April 07 2013 06:33 blooblooblahblah wrote:
On April 06 2013 19:38 ThaReckoning wrote:
On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote:
About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus.
I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base.
Any other advice with a fast core ?
i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).


Honestly I still 12 gate and 1 gas PvP. It's a bit greedy to double gas and not scout very thoroughly. It's holdable, you have to pull probes and micro though. If you'd like you can proxy 2gate me in base and I'll stop it with a 13 gate so you can have a replay of how to do it.


There is honestly no reason to go 12 gate in PvP unless ur already committing to something agressive. I remember playing u on ladder saying that the earlier gate was standard in PvP at the end of WoL which imo was not true at all, the PvP metagame evolved a ton, unless u were playing PeaKnuckles and Bonk every game. All cheeses can be held with a 13 gate, the slight delay between a 12 gate and a 13 gate when being cheesed does not really justify going 12 gate every game.


The point of 12 gate is the earlier potential zealot, and the potential to do something aggressive if you scout your opponent cutting a ton of corners. The earlier core means earlier MSC etc. Nothing wrong with 12 gating the mu, I have a ton of success with it.


The different between a zealot from a 12 gate and a 13 gate is ridiculously small, unless ur probe scouting early which is pretty uncommon and not worth it imo. Any build u can do of a 12 gate u can do of a 13 gate without any noticeable difference, yet by going 12 gate it means prevents u from double gasing on 15 or 3 stalker rushing (well u can 3 stalker rush but imo it's considerably worse of a 12 gate). I understand there are some slight perks but i firmly believe 13 gate is better, and 12 gate is definitely not the standard (which you told me on ladder, and if u paid any attention to PvP in the last 6 months of WoL that was certainly not the case).


The difference matters when you're getting 2gated. I hardly 3 stalker rush ever, it's not necessary anymore with the death of the 4gate, which was a bad thing for PvP. Double gassing on 15 is greedy and should be pretty easily punished, which is why I go 12 gate and punish it all the time. You keep mentioning some throwaway ladder game that I don't even remember, it's irrelevant.


The thing is it doesn't matter when you're getting 2gated. It makes it easier sure, but you could hold a proxy 2gate with a 13 gate in WoL, and now it's even easier to hold with the mothership core. Double gassing is barely anymore greedy than a standard 14/18 gas, and can hold anything off a 12 gate if u play safe. If you're punishing it with a 12 gate, that means ur opponent wasn't actively scouting/being too greedy for reasons pass the double gas and has nothing to do with getting double gas on 15. You may not 3 stalker rush anymore, but it is an extremely common build used by many good players atm. And i mention that ladder game not because i beat u (it's ladder, doesn't matter at all), but because u said 12 gate was the standard in PvP, yet it obviously isn't. There is a reason hardly anyone goes 12 gate anymore, it's viable but has very little advantages over going 13 gate.
Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in.
ThaReckoning
Profile Joined January 2011
United States197 Posts
April 07 2013 01:10 GMT
#920
On April 07 2013 09:25 blooblooblahblah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 08:56 ThaReckoning wrote:
On April 07 2013 08:18 blooblooblahblah wrote:
On April 07 2013 06:37 ThaReckoning wrote:
On April 07 2013 06:33 blooblooblahblah wrote:
On April 06 2013 19:38 ThaReckoning wrote:
On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote:
About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus.
I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base.
Any other advice with a fast core ?
i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).


Honestly I still 12 gate and 1 gas PvP. It's a bit greedy to double gas and not scout very thoroughly. It's holdable, you have to pull probes and micro though. If you'd like you can proxy 2gate me in base and I'll stop it with a 13 gate so you can have a replay of how to do it.


There is honestly no reason to go 12 gate in PvP unless ur already committing to something agressive. I remember playing u on ladder saying that the earlier gate was standard in PvP at the end of WoL which imo was not true at all, the PvP metagame evolved a ton, unless u were playing PeaKnuckles and Bonk every game. All cheeses can be held with a 13 gate, the slight delay between a 12 gate and a 13 gate when being cheesed does not really justify going 12 gate every game.


The point of 12 gate is the earlier potential zealot, and the potential to do something aggressive if you scout your opponent cutting a ton of corners. The earlier core means earlier MSC etc. Nothing wrong with 12 gating the mu, I have a ton of success with it.


The different between a zealot from a 12 gate and a 13 gate is ridiculously small, unless ur probe scouting early which is pretty uncommon and not worth it imo. Any build u can do of a 12 gate u can do of a 13 gate without any noticeable difference, yet by going 12 gate it means prevents u from double gasing on 15 or 3 stalker rushing (well u can 3 stalker rush but imo it's considerably worse of a 12 gate). I understand there are some slight perks but i firmly believe 13 gate is better, and 12 gate is definitely not the standard (which you told me on ladder, and if u paid any attention to PvP in the last 6 months of WoL that was certainly not the case).


The difference matters when you're getting 2gated. I hardly 3 stalker rush ever, it's not necessary anymore with the death of the 4gate, which was a bad thing for PvP. Double gassing on 15 is greedy and should be pretty easily punished, which is why I go 12 gate and punish it all the time. You keep mentioning some throwaway ladder game that I don't even remember, it's irrelevant.


The thing is it doesn't matter when you're getting 2gated. It makes it easier sure, but you could hold a proxy 2gate with a 13 gate in WoL, and now it's even easier to hold with the mothership core. Double gassing is barely anymore greedy than a standard 14/18 gas, and can hold anything off a 12 gate if u play safe. If you're punishing it with a 12 gate, that means ur opponent wasn't actively scouting/being too greedy for reasons pass the double gas and has nothing to do with getting double gas on 15. You may not 3 stalker rush anymore, but it is an extremely common build used by many good players atm. And i mention that ladder game not because i beat u (it's ladder, doesn't matter at all), but because u said 12 gate was the standard in PvP, yet it obviously isn't. There is a reason hardly anyone goes 12 gate anymore, it's viable but has very little advantages over going 13 gate.


The advantages it has are very useful in today's metagame, on these maps. That's why I do it, and that's why it's currently better than 13 gate imo. Double gassing is extremely greedy, much more so than 14/18 gas, which is greedy in and of itself. If you want to be able to pin your opponent on a build, you have to punish them for being that greedy. I'm not a fan of rolling the dice in PvP, so I punish the common builds. As for 3 stalker, I barely ever see it, likely because it's outdated and no longer necessary.
If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose.
Prev 1 44 45 46 47 48 367 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PiGosaur Monday
00:00
#39
PiGStarcraft478
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft478
WinterStarcraft374
Nina 233
RuFF_SC2 158
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 223
Sharp 74
Icarus 9
Dota 2
monkeys_forever669
League of Legends
JimRising 807
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox613
Other Games
summit1g6571
shahzam912
ViBE192
Maynarde172
Trikslyr43
CosmosSc2 23
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick43838
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH298
• Hupsaiya 75
• practicex 23
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1854
• masondota2367
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
5h 56m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
11h 56m
WardiTV European League
11h 56m
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
Replay Cast
19h 56m
RSL Revival
1d 5h
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
OSC
1d 8h
Replay Cast
1d 19h
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
2 days
OSC
2 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
FEL
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.