EPT
thanks in advance everyone <3The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 46
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
|
LardMaster
United Kingdom123 Posts
thanks in advance everyone <3 | ||
|
ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On April 07 2013 01:29 Mellon wrote: I just feel like anything reactionary vs zerg is bound to be a lost game. U need to have insane scouting to stay ahead, if u do however, you will have a really insane chance. But if you start making colossi after he is doing his push the game is already lost. Same with mutas, if u start adding stargates after u see mutas, game is over. Even if you break out, you are fighting vs a zerg with 5 bases while u might have 2½ or 3. It's not that I react to it when it's out, I see the infestation pit and hydra den going down, and drop 2 robos immediately. It's just a beast to even survive the initial contain, much less break out against it. | ||
|
ShaolinZorg
Belgium47 Posts
what are the differences between these versions ? thanks ! | ||
|
SkyBlaze
Canada191 Posts
On April 07 2013 05:27 ShaolinZorg wrote: about 1gate FE, could someone tell me which one is the best to learn (I am a beginner) kcdc or MC ? what are the differences between these versions ? thanks ! KCDC 1gate FE is safer due to sentry but MC 1gate FE can be used for pressure. but both builds are kinda out of date. With HoTS having MCS. here's the new FE protoss use now, 9 pylon 13gate (scout here if on 4 player map) (no scout on 2 player maps can be done due to MSC scout) 15 gas gas (2 in each) 16 pylon 19 zealot 20 core send probe to nat at 21 check for block (engineering bay block) cancel zealot if you see no engineering bay block, if e-bay is made let zealot finish and send to it, 22 nexus (nexus should be down by 3:55mins or 4mins) 23 MSC ( when done send to terran base) (chrono for reaper def) put the rest of the probes into gas for 3 in each 24 pylon 24 stalker (chrono for fast reaper def) warpgate tech here (no chrono unless you doing a warpgate timing) 26 robo gate gate or gate gate robo (robo first is good for when you see a factory and a starport early Generally safe) (gate first is good for hold rax units early or even punishing Fast 3 CC's terrans generally used for pressure) this is would i can see for now. build can change a bit depending on scouting info | ||
|
LardMaster
United Kingdom123 Posts
| ||
|
ShaolinZorg
Belgium47 Posts
On April 07 2013 05:59 SkyBlaze wrote: KCDC 1gate FE is safer due to sentry but MC 1gate FE can be used for pressure. but both builds are kinda out of date. With HoTS having MCS. here's the new FE protoss use now, 9 pylon 13gate (scout here if on 4 player map) (no scout on 2 player maps can be done due to MSC scout) 15 gas gas (2 in each) 16 pylon 19 zealot 20 core send probe to nat at 21 check for block (engineering bay block) cancel zealot if you see no engineering bay block, if e-bay is made let zealot finish and send to it, 22 nexus (nexus should be down by 3:55mins or 4mins) 23 MSC ( when done send to terran base) (chrono for reaper def) put the rest of the probes into gas for 3 in each 24 pylon 24 stalker (chrono for fast reaper def) warpgate tech here (no chrono unless you doing a warpgate timing) 26 robo this is would i can see for now. build can change a bit depending on scouting info thanks a lot, a few questions : - so, no more need to cut probes ? - why can you put the nexus so earlier (22) compared to WoL (30), is the MSC permitting that ? - how would you followup with double forge ? | ||
|
Valestrum
United States246 Posts
| ||
|
SkyBlaze
Canada191 Posts
On April 07 2013 06:18 ShaolinZorg wrote: thanks a lot, a few questions : - so, no more need to cut probes ? - why can you put the nexus so earlier (22) compared to WoL (30), is the MSC permitting that ? - how would you followup with double forge ? 1. you don't need to probe cut at all if you want. pros that probe cut do so for faster tech or faster nexus but not as safe. 2. you can put nexus on 22 due to the fact MSC Spells are really good early to mid game and are decent in the late game. any rax timings are stop due to nexus cannon. 3. if you went double forge drop timings will be hard to hold due to medicav speed boasts, and the different units that might drop out need to be defend differently. mines, hellbats, marine, marauder, best thing i can recmoned for now is leaving 2 stalkers with 1 zealot and obs for both main and naturals. if they drop a lot start building 1-2 cannons and add more as you see fit. when you live threw all that I personally like colossus(make only 2 with lance, getting charge) better with double forge and than switch into High Templar. when colossus are made first the terran needs to decide between Vikings or medicavs and when you switch to templars that will make it even stronger. But with all that said i don't like double forge to much not my style of play. edit~ Lardmaster i'll look at that build for you but i remember artosis doing it the games were really long like 1hr or so. | ||
|
blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On April 06 2013 19:38 ThaReckoning wrote: Honestly I still 12 gate and 1 gas PvP. It's a bit greedy to double gas and not scout very thoroughly. It's holdable, you have to pull probes and micro though. If you'd like you can proxy 2gate me in base and I'll stop it with a 13 gate so you can have a replay of how to do it. There is honestly no reason to go 12 gate in PvP unless ur already committing to something agressive. I remember playing u on ladder saying that the earlier gate was standard in PvP at the end of WoL which imo was not true at all, the PvP metagame evolved a ton, unless u were playing PeaKnuckles and Bonk every game. All cheeses can be held with a 13 gate, the slight delay between a 12 gate and a 13 gate when being cheesed does not really justify going 12 gate every game. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Additionally, pros seem to really delay their scout or not do it at all, so i suppose they also agree. | ||
|
ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On April 07 2013 06:33 blooblooblahblah wrote: There is honestly no reason to go 12 gate in PvP unless ur already committing to something agressive. I remember playing u on ladder saying that the earlier gate was standard in PvP at the end of WoL which imo was not true at all, the PvP metagame evolved a ton, unless u were playing PeaKnuckles and Bonk every game. All cheeses can be held with a 13 gate, the slight delay between a 12 gate and a 13 gate when being cheesed does not really justify going 12 gate every game. The point of 12 gate is the earlier potential zealot, and the potential to do something aggressive if you scout your opponent cutting a ton of corners. The earlier core means earlier MSC etc. Nothing wrong with 12 gating the mu, I have a ton of success with it. | ||
|
SkyBlaze
Canada191 Posts
On April 07 2013 04:19 LardMaster wrote: Hello. I was wondering if any kind soul who owns a GSL ticket would be able to watch Creator's game against Crazy on Daybreak from April 4th where he plays skytoss. I have a real interest in skytoss and haven't found a proper guide on it for HotS, and would really interested to know what he does and his opening build. I have summarised Stork's skytoss build from proleague today but I would love to analyse Creator's too, but I'm too poor thanks in advance everyone <3here's a rough draft of that build: 9 PYLON (IN BASE MAIN) NEXUS 16 17 FORGE (IN BASEMAIN) 18 GATE (WALL NAT) 19 CANNON ( at NAT) 20 GAS 21 GAS 26 CORE 27 ZEALOT 31 PYLON 36 WARP TECH 36 SENTRY 38 GAS GAS (at NAT) 38 STARGATE 40 PYLON 42 SENTRY 54 VOIDRAYS 56 PLASMA SHIELDS 56 MSC 56 VOID RAY 58 GATE (wall at nat) 65 AIR WEAPONS 67 PYLON 71 NEXUS 73 2X PYLON build cannons at 3rd and contiune air production | ||
|
SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On April 07 2013 06:58 SkyBlaze wrote: here's a rough draft of that build: 9 PYLON (IN BASE MAIN) NEXUS 16 17 FORGE (IN BASEMAIN) 18 GATE (WALL NAT) 19 CANNON ( at NAT) 20 GAS 21 GAS 26 CORE 27 ZEALOT 31 PYLON 36 WARP TECH 36 SENTRY 38 GAS GAS (at NAT) 38 STARGATE 40 PYLON 42 SENTRY 54 VOIDRAYS 56 PLASMA SHIELDS 56 MSC 56 VOID RAY 58 GATE (wall at nat) 65 AIR WEAPONS 67 PYLON 71 NEXUS 73 2X PYLON build cannons at 3rd and contiune air production 9 pylon (in base main) nexus 16 17 forge (in basemain) 18 gate (wall nat) 19 cannon ( at nat) 20 gas 21 gas 26 core 27 zealot 31 pylon 36 warp tech 36 sentry 38 gas gas (at nat) 38 stargate 40 pylon 42 sentry 54 voidrays 56 plasma shields 56 msc 56 void ray 58 gate (wall at nat) 65 air weapons 67 pylon 71 nexus 73 2x pylon all caps is really hard to read for some people. hurts my eyes. | ||
|
SkyBlaze
Canada191 Posts
| ||
|
blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On April 07 2013 06:37 ThaReckoning wrote: The point of 12 gate is the earlier potential zealot, and the potential to do something aggressive if you scout your opponent cutting a ton of corners. The earlier core means earlier MSC etc. Nothing wrong with 12 gating the mu, I have a ton of success with it. The different between a zealot from a 12 gate and a 13 gate is ridiculously small, unless ur probe scouting early which is pretty uncommon and not worth it imo. Any build u can do of a 12 gate u can do of a 13 gate without any noticeable difference, yet by going 12 gate it means prevents u from double gasing on 15 or 3 stalker rushing (well u can 3 stalker rush but imo it's considerably worse of a 12 gate). I understand there are some slight perks but i firmly believe 13 gate is better, and 12 gate is definitely not the standard (which you told me on ladder, and if u paid any attention to PvP in the last 6 months of WoL that was certainly not the case). | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25050 Posts
On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote: About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus. I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base. Any other advice with a fast core ? i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz). On 2 player maps I lay out my base like you would if you were going for an old gate expand vZ. I get a better eco by not pylon scouting, so I stubbornly persisted in doing this until I could hold proxy 2 gates nearly blind. I Scout with my gate probe and I have time to do a full walloff if I find such shenanigans are going down, just about! | ||
|
ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On April 07 2013 08:18 blooblooblahblah wrote: The different between a zealot from a 12 gate and a 13 gate is ridiculously small, unless ur probe scouting early which is pretty uncommon and not worth it imo. Any build u can do of a 12 gate u can do of a 13 gate without any noticeable difference, yet by going 12 gate it means prevents u from double gasing on 15 or 3 stalker rushing (well u can 3 stalker rush but imo it's considerably worse of a 12 gate). I understand there are some slight perks but i firmly believe 13 gate is better, and 12 gate is definitely not the standard (which you told me on ladder, and if u paid any attention to PvP in the last 6 months of WoL that was certainly not the case). The difference matters when you're getting 2gated. I hardly 3 stalker rush ever, it's not necessary anymore with the death of the 4gate, which was a bad thing for PvP. Double gassing on 15 is greedy and should be pretty easily punished, which is why I go 12 gate and punish it all the time. You keep mentioning some throwaway ladder game that I don't even remember, it's irrelevant. User was warned for bad/wrong advice. Next post below is wrong too. | ||
|
accaris
98 Posts
| ||
|
blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On April 07 2013 08:56 ThaReckoning wrote: The difference matters when you're getting 2gated. I hardly 3 stalker rush ever, it's not necessary anymore with the death of the 4gate, which was a bad thing for PvP. Double gassing on 15 is greedy and should be pretty easily punished, which is why I go 12 gate and punish it all the time. You keep mentioning some throwaway ladder game that I don't even remember, it's irrelevant. The thing is it doesn't matter when you're getting 2gated. It makes it easier sure, but you could hold a proxy 2gate with a 13 gate in WoL, and now it's even easier to hold with the mothership core. Double gassing is barely anymore greedy than a standard 14/18 gas, and can hold anything off a 12 gate if u play safe. If you're punishing it with a 12 gate, that means ur opponent wasn't actively scouting/being too greedy for reasons pass the double gas and has nothing to do with getting double gas on 15. You may not 3 stalker rush anymore, but it is an extremely common build used by many good players atm. And i mention that ladder game not because i beat u (it's ladder, doesn't matter at all), but because u said 12 gate was the standard in PvP, yet it obviously isn't. There is a reason hardly anyone goes 12 gate anymore, it's viable but has very little advantages over going 13 gate. | ||
|
ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On April 07 2013 09:25 blooblooblahblah wrote: The thing is it doesn't matter when you're getting 2gated. It makes it easier sure, but you could hold a proxy 2gate with a 13 gate in WoL, and now it's even easier to hold with the mothership core. Double gassing is barely anymore greedy than a standard 14/18 gas, and can hold anything off a 12 gate if u play safe. If you're punishing it with a 12 gate, that means ur opponent wasn't actively scouting/being too greedy for reasons pass the double gas and has nothing to do with getting double gas on 15. You may not 3 stalker rush anymore, but it is an extremely common build used by many good players atm. And i mention that ladder game not because i beat u (it's ladder, doesn't matter at all), but because u said 12 gate was the standard in PvP, yet it obviously isn't. There is a reason hardly anyone goes 12 gate anymore, it's viable but has very little advantages over going 13 gate. The advantages it has are very useful in today's metagame, on these maps. That's why I do it, and that's why it's currently better than 13 gate imo. Double gassing is extremely greedy, much more so than 14/18 gas, which is greedy in and of itself. If you want to be able to pin your opponent on a build, you have to punish them for being that greedy. I'm not a fan of rolling the dice in PvP, so I punish the common builds. As for 3 stalker, I barely ever see it, likely because it's outdated and no longer necessary. | ||
| ||
