Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote: About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus. I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base. Any other advice with a fast core ? i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).
Honestly I still 12 gate and 1 gas PvP. It's a bit greedy to double gas and not scout very thoroughly. It's holdable, you have to pull probes and micro though. If you'd like you can proxy 2gate me in base and I'll stop it with a 13 gate so you can have a replay of how to do it.
There is honestly no reason to go 12 gate in PvP unless ur already committing to something agressive. I remember playing u on ladder saying that the earlier gate was standard in PvP at the end of WoL which imo was not true at all, the PvP metagame evolved a ton, unless u were playing PeaKnuckles and Bonk every game. All cheeses can be held with a 13 gate, the slight delay between a 12 gate and a 13 gate when being cheesed does not really justify going 12 gate every game.
The point of 12 gate is the earlier potential zealot, and the potential to do something aggressive if you scout your opponent cutting a ton of corners. The earlier core means earlier MSC etc. Nothing wrong with 12 gating the mu, I have a ton of success with it.
The different between a zealot from a 12 gate and a 13 gate is ridiculously small, unless ur probe scouting early which is pretty uncommon and not worth it imo. Any build u can do of a 12 gate u can do of a 13 gate without any noticeable difference, yet by going 12 gate it means prevents u from double gasing on 15 or 3 stalker rushing (well u can 3 stalker rush but imo it's considerably worse of a 12 gate). I understand there are some slight perks but i firmly believe 13 gate is better, and 12 gate is definitely not the standard (which you told me on ladder, and if u paid any attention to PvP in the last 6 months of WoL that was certainly not the case).
The difference matters when you're getting 2gated. I hardly 3 stalker rush ever, it's not necessary anymore with the death of the 4gate, which was a bad thing for PvP. Double gassing on 15 is greedy and should be pretty easily punished, which is why I go 12 gate and punish it all the time. You keep mentioning some throwaway ladder game that I don't even remember, it's irrelevant.
The thing is it doesn't matter when you're getting 2gated. It makes it easier sure, but you could hold a proxy 2gate with a 13 gate in WoL, and now it's even easier to hold with the mothership core. Double gassing is barely anymore greedy than a standard 14/18 gas, and can hold anything off a 12 gate if u play safe. If you're punishing it with a 12 gate, that means ur opponent wasn't actively scouting/being too greedy for reasons pass the double gas and has nothing to do with getting double gas on 15. You may not 3 stalker rush anymore, but it is an extremely common build used by many good players atm. And i mention that ladder game not because i beat u (it's ladder, doesn't matter at all), but because u said 12 gate was the standard in PvP, yet it obviously isn't. There is a reason hardly anyone goes 12 gate anymore, it's viable but has very little advantages over going 13 gate.
The advantages it has are very useful in today's metagame, on these maps. That's why I do it, and that's why it's currently better than 13 gate imo. Double gassing is extremely greedy, much more so than 14/18 gas, which is greedy in and of itself. If you want to be able to pin your opponent on a build, you have to punish them for being that greedy. I'm not a fan of rolling the dice in PvP, so I punish the common builds. As for 3 stalker, I barely ever see it, likely because it's outdated and no longer necessary.
13 gate no scout is just the way to go atm with many builds. With the MSC and some decent stalker scouting you can stop any pressure really if you're not skipping the zealot. For example 2 gate dt with double gassing at 15 is just really safe. Not really anything an aggressive build can do to punish it, MSC is ready for warpgate timings and you have plenty of units of the first gate to stop other pressure.
vs 2 base swarm host, where he shows no intentions of taking a 3rd, is it wrong to take a third myself? I just lost to 2 base swarm host with a standard timed third
Given that we're no longer able to ask for builds in this thread, where should I go to find them? Ideally, I'd like builds that are exact, so they contain build orders rather than, say, Gate - Nexus - Robo - 2 Gates. Additionally, I'm not sure how to determine which builds are actually usable in standard play. I might find an interesting PvP build and completely miss the fact that it straight up dies to DT's, but Player X never uses DT's, and Player Y knew that, so he abused that knowledge with his build. Normally I'd use my knowledge of the matchup to determine if I believed the build was safe, but I'm fairly new to HotS and don't know what's safe and what's not any more, especially in PvP where I am lost.
So, to sum it up, I need build orders and the context behind them. While I can probably find VODs for the first pretty easily, I have no idea where I'd get the second.
I'm having trouble in PvP with people taking a greedy expansion, and putting down a boat-load of cannons to protect it. I'm used to going warp prism to drop around it - but I'm not opening with an early robo and it takes too long.
If I try to take my second after seeing this, I'm behind.
Usually it's stargates behind the cannons, which also makes prism drops more difficult.
Is there a reliable way to punish this? Scout it better earlier and rush to drops??
Been trying to avoid stargate mirrors - but expanding and going stargate, and hoping that all the canons let me catch up, is the only thing I can think of...
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the correct response to a bunch of cannons (Three or more) is to just take a ridiculously greedy third base. They've invested a bunch of minerals into stuff that can't stop you. If you take a really fast third and then go double stargate, you should be able to overwhelm him with sheer numbers once you max out.
On April 07 2013 12:55 Gopher5 wrote: I'm having trouble in PvP with people taking a greedy expansion, and putting down a boat-load of cannons to protect it. I'm used to going warp prism to drop around it - but I'm not opening with an early robo and it takes too long.
If I try to take my second after seeing this, I'm behind.
Usually it's stargates behind the cannons, which also makes prism drops more difficult.
Is there a reliable way to punish this? Scout it better earlier and rush to drops??
Been trying to avoid stargate mirrors - but expanding and going stargate, and hoping that all the canons let me catch up, is the only thing I can think of...
Thanks.
Cannons when you don't plan on attacking are essentially wasted by your opponent. Additionally, if he's taking a greedy expo, you should be able to poke and prod BEFORE the cannons are up, and if he makes the cannons at the same time as his expo, even taking yours a little behind it will put you on par. It's more of a mental issue you're having in this case, unless you're just not scouting the base for a long time, in which case.. scout earlier and more often.
PvP is really bad for me. I can't seem to find a good all round build. I have a 3 gate blink pressure with expand behind it. It works out well against every build but DT, which is an insta loss. I then tried Robo but the stargate openings are insanely good against them, never mind a collo opener. And I simply hate stargate play in general and have no desire to open stargate for retarded phenoix wars. I would like an opening that is safe against all others that can be constantly used on ladder against all styles. Like the 2 gate Robo from Wings. As I don't belive one exists in hots atm.
On April 07 2013 04:19 LardMaster wrote: Hello. I was wondering if any kind soul who owns a GSL ticket would be able to watch Creator's game against Crazy on Daybreak from April 4th where he plays skytoss. I have a real interest in skytoss and haven't found a proper guide on it for HotS, and would really interested to know what he does and his opening build. I have summarised Stork's skytoss build from proleague today but I would love to analyse Creator's too, but I'm too poor thanks in advance everyone <3
here's a rough draft of that build:
9 PYLON (IN BASE MAIN) NEXUS 16 17 FORGE (IN BASEMAIN) 18 GATE (WALL NAT) 19 CANNON ( at NAT) 20 GAS 21 GAS 26 CORE 27 ZEALOT 31 PYLON 36 WARP TECH 36 SENTRY 38 GAS GAS (at NAT) 38 STARGATE 40 PYLON 42 SENTRY 54 VOIDRAYS 56 PLASMA SHIELDS 56 MSC 56 VOID RAY 58 GATE (wall at nat) 65 AIR WEAPONS 67 PYLON 71 NEXUS 73 2X PYLON build cannons at 3rd and contiune air production
9 pylon (in base main) nexus 16 17 forge (in basemain) 18 gate (wall nat) 19 cannon ( at nat) 20 gas 21 gas 26 core 27 zealot 31 pylon 36 warp tech 36 sentry 38 gas gas (at nat) 38 stargate 40 pylon 42 sentry 54 voidrays 56 plasma shields 56 msc 56 void ray 58 gate (wall at nat) 65 air weapons 67 pylon 71 nexus 73 2x pylon
all caps is really hard to read for some people. hurts my eyes.
Thanks a lot both of you When does he put the next stargates and fleet beacon down though? I guess just after the third nexus.
I have a question related to PvP: is there a proper counter to a 1 base collossus? Or does one just also need to tech to collosus asap?
For context, I mainly do a 1 gate, robo, 2nd gate, expand build so pumped out an immortals but ended up loosing. However, I think my problem may have just been not scouting it early enough (I didn't bother clicking on the warping in structure, thinking it was another gateway warping in for some reason) and the principle might be a good one.
On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote: About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus. I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base. Any other advice with a fast core ? i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).
Honestly I still 12 gate and 1 gas PvP. It's a bit greedy to double gas and not scout very thoroughly. It's holdable, you have to pull probes and micro though. If you'd like you can proxy 2gate me in base and I'll stop it with a 13 gate so you can have a replay of how to do it.
There is honestly no reason to go 12 gate in PvP unless ur already committing to something agressive. I remember playing u on ladder saying that the earlier gate was standard in PvP at the end of WoL which imo was not true at all, the PvP metagame evolved a ton, unless u were playing PeaKnuckles and Bonk every game. All cheeses can be held with a 13 gate, the slight delay between a 12 gate and a 13 gate when being cheesed does not really justify going 12 gate every game.
The point of 12 gate is the earlier potential zealot, and the potential to do something aggressive if you scout your opponent cutting a ton of corners. The earlier core means earlier MSC etc. Nothing wrong with 12 gating the mu, I have a ton of success with it.
The different between a zealot from a 12 gate and a 13 gate is ridiculously small, unless ur probe scouting early which is pretty uncommon and not worth it imo. Any build u can do of a 12 gate u can do of a 13 gate without any noticeable difference, yet by going 12 gate it means prevents u from double gasing on 15 or 3 stalker rushing (well u can 3 stalker rush but imo it's considerably worse of a 12 gate). I understand there are some slight perks but i firmly believe 13 gate is better, and 12 gate is definitely not the standard (which you told me on ladder, and if u paid any attention to PvP in the last 6 months of WoL that was certainly not the case).
The difference matters when you're getting 2gated. I hardly 3 stalker rush ever, it's not necessary anymore with the death of the 4gate, which was a bad thing for PvP. Double gassing on 15 is greedy and should be pretty easily punished, which is why I go 12 gate and punish it all the time. You keep mentioning some throwaway ladder game that I don't even remember, it's irrelevant.
The thing is it doesn't matter when you're getting 2gated. It makes it easier sure, but you could hold a proxy 2gate with a 13 gate in WoL, and now it's even easier to hold with the mothership core. Double gassing is barely anymore greedy than a standard 14/18 gas, and can hold anything off a 12 gate if u play safe. If you're punishing it with a 12 gate, that means ur opponent wasn't actively scouting/being too greedy for reasons pass the double gas and has nothing to do with getting double gas on 15. You may not 3 stalker rush anymore, but it is an extremely common build used by many good players atm. And i mention that ladder game not because i beat u (it's ladder, doesn't matter at all), but because u said 12 gate was the standard in PvP, yet it obviously isn't. There is a reason hardly anyone goes 12 gate anymore, it's viable but has very little advantages over going 13 gate.
The advantages it has are very useful in today's metagame, on these maps. That's why I do it, and that's why it's currently better than 13 gate imo. Double gassing is extremely greedy, much more so than 14/18 gas, which is greedy in and of itself. If you want to be able to pin your opponent on a build, you have to punish them for being that greedy. I'm not a fan of rolling the dice in PvP, so I punish the common builds. As for 3 stalker, I barely ever see it, likely because it's outdated and no longer necessary.
1) Double 15 gas isn't greedy nor punishable reactively. Same for 14/18 gas into 3 stalker. 2) 3 Stalker is still a very useful build because it allows for map control and a fairly fast nexus behind pressure (or eventually leads into a strong blink build) 3) The difference between 12 and 13 gate is negligible in any situation.
On April 07 2013 11:49 LeeDawg wrote: vs 2 base swarm host, where he shows no intentions of taking a 3rd, is it wrong to take a third myself? I just lost to 2 base swarm host with a standard timed third
If he's 2base allining you there's no point in taking a third. You need all the resources you can possibly get into double robo colossus anyway.
On April 07 2013 17:19 DrSayius wrote: Gold level Protoss, here.
I have a question related to PvP: is there a proper counter to a 1 base collossus? Or does one just also need to tech to collosus asap?
For context, I mainly do a 1 gate, robo, 2nd gate, expand build so pumped out an immortals but ended up loosing. However, I think my problem may have just been not scouting it early enough (I didn't bother clicking on the warping in structure, thinking it was another gateway warping in for some reason) and the principle might be a good one.
If you fast expand (or do a robo expand like yours) the general idea of holding it is by having about 5 gates worth of gateway units plus immortals of your own. He will not be able to afford both ranged colossi and enough sentries to keep your immortals away from his one colossus without range. If he does the older push with 2 colossi with range, that hits so late you should have an overwhelming amount of units anyway. As far as army composition goes, zealot/immortal is a bit stronger than stalker/immortal because stalkers aren't very good in big straight up fights.
If you fast expand (or do a robo expand like yours) the general idea of holding it is by having about 5 gates worth of gateway units plus immortals of your own. He will not be able to afford both ranged colossi and enough sentries to keep your immortals away from his one colossus without range. If he does the older push with 2 colossi with range, that hits so late you should have an overwhelming amount of units anyway. As far as army composition goes, zealot/immortal is a bit stronger than stalker/immortal because stalkers aren't very good in big straight up fights.
Thanks, Teoita. I really appreciate everything you do
What is solution in PvP to mass air? I tried going ground, I had like 25 HT with almost full energy lot of archons and stalkers I think 3/3 upgrades against sky toss with mass carriers and void rays with 2/2. I was casting storm all the time but it did absolutely no damage. I am not kidding, it didnt killed anything, I dropped so many storms and just lowered the shields so what the hell is the problem? I can post replay if u want to see carriers being immune to quadrilion storms
On April 07 2013 19:48 Phantasmiq wrote: What is solution in PvP to mass air? I tried going ground, I had like 25 HT with almost full energy lot of archons and stalkers I think 3/3 upgrades against sky toss with mass carriers and void rays with 2/2. I was casting storm all the time but it did absolutely no damage. I am not kidding, it didnt killed anything, I dropped so many storms and just lowered the shields so what the hell is the problem? I can post replay if u want to see carriers being immune to quadrilion storms
Well... a carrier can stand under storm for over 22 straight seconds before dying. That's at least 6 storms. Carrier void is probably the ultimate PvP army so there isn't a counter to it other than doing it yourself. Of course it's not easy to just make an air fleet like that, so if you're going the ground route you'll have to kill him before he can get that kind of army out.
On March 31 2013 11:34 hellz.atalvez wrote: and more embarrassingly: What do I do when I scout a 6 pool. When I wall in and force a stalker it seems to only serve to cause me more pain and heartache in the long run as they can expand all they want for free. I know skytoss is everyone's favorite plan vs zerg, but I really do not care for that kind of style.
Against 6 pools, I have won every single game so far easily doing the following (based on what I have seen white-ra do):
* If it's a 4 spawn map and you don't find your opponent right away, make a forge immediatly and send a second scout out. * If you see a 6 pool, immediatly build a pylon behind your mineral line. Build a cannon in your mineral line - it should not only cover your mineral probes but also close enough to one of your geysers. Make sure to surround the cannon if the lings attack it so it goes up safely. * Aim for 16 probes on minelras while responding with a proxy 3 gate. The 3 gates should surround your pylon, so lings can't unpower them. Your proxy should be placed somewhere like his third or where he is unlikely to scout. Make sure your zealots do not get trapped between your gates and pylon due to a bad rally. * Get about 5 zealots before streaming them towards the zerg's base. Kill everything you can, if he runs away, take down his pool immediatly. * Make sure to get a gas and a cybernetics core in your base. If the zerg is still alive, just think about the situation. One game, my opponent abandoned his main, got a roach warren, lost his pool, and quite a few spines. I got an oracle and followed up with a gateway push while making a few voids to kill the roaches and bypass the spines as well.
Does this work against 10 pools too?
I can only recall doing this once or twice vs 10 pool and it worked. But it wasn't the same, so perhaps it's not as reliable. You should just try it and see the results. You may have to do a follow up push with a stargate + 3-4 gate after the initial harassment or something. Afaik, you can just wall off your natural against a 10 pool in most cases though. But I'd still try this prxoy strategy and a follow-up since you can still macro if you don't have 4 gateways producing units nonstop.
Look Teoita, I'm not posting bad advice. I'm just saying go ahead and *test it* if you're really interested - which is something you have to do a lot in RTS.
It has worked every single game against 6 pools for me and I will most likely stick to this build for a good while. Keep in mind I never said this is a good build against 10 pools. Since the guy who originally asked how to deal with 6 pools was a diamond player, I'm sure he'll get good results against 6 pools for the time being if he does this.
I mean, this proxy gate response works for Whitera himself, so what's the deal? Is it just the fact that it's not Whitera posting? I could post a youtube video of him doing something like this, would it change anything? I dont think so. But it's not a bad build just because it's not standard. I've seen good posters talk about +1 zealot pressure into dts here how nicely it works and whatnot. How is that not "very gimmicky"? According to the PvZ guide, it's mostly up to the zerg to scout and respond properly than execution. Don't hate on special tactics man. ^^
For those who think it's too gimmicky, just don't do this. In any case, here is Whitera's video:
Wrote down Creators(Tastless build) voidray build in game 2 vs Crazy in gsl code s R32 if anybody is interested. Might have missed 1/2 pylons or 1-2 zealots stopped writing down to produce voids around 148 production because it should be constant until you get fleet beacon and start to get tempest(get 4-5 tempest and start voidray production again if you are not maxed and already have 2 coll/A few ht) if you prefer HT you can change robo with twilight and tech to coll if you want to after or just forget about them. + Show Spoiler +
pylon 9 in base rally probe 15(supply) nexsus 16 forge 17 pylon 18 exp gateway 19 cannon 19 gas 21/21x2 nexus completes cyber 26 zealot 27 pylon 31 warpgate 33 sentrie 33/34 gas 36x2 stargate 38 pylon 38 sentrie 42 pylon 44/46 pylon 52 voidray 54 cut probes when about 16/18 on each mineral line and full gas shield upgrade 56 mothership core 56 gate 59 void 63 pylon 63 start probes again weapon air65 pylon 71 voidray 71 nexsus 71 pylon 71 zealot 73 zealot 77 voidray 79 cannon 83 zealot 85 stargate x2 87 pylon 88 zealot 91 gas 92x2 pylon 96 void ray 98 pylon 100 armor air 101 voidray x2 101/107 constant voidray production pylon 115 cut probes should be fully saturated 3 bases 115 zealotsx2 gateway 119 pylon 119 voidray 125/129x2 zealot x2 126 pylon 136 nexus 136 robo 148 voidray 148 zealot x2 pylon 148 weapon ground 152 zealot 157 continue voidray production fleet beacon 164 observer165 when fleet is down start tempest production and upgrade weapon 2+ nexus 186 robo 186 ship weapon 3+ when 2+ is done extended lance when robo is done and start to produce a few coll. throw down twilight now ht after and ds because you will have the money. Also start throwing down a few extra stargates and continue with armor air upgrade after weapon 3+ is down same with same with weapon 2+ ground and get charge when twilight is done
On April 07 2013 19:48 Phantasmiq wrote: What is solution in PvP to mass air? I tried going ground, I had like 25 HT with almost full energy lot of archons and stalkers I think 3/3 upgrades against sky toss with mass carriers and void rays with 2/2. I was casting storm all the time but it did absolutely no damage. I am not kidding, it didnt killed anything, I dropped so many storms and just lowered the shields so what the hell is the problem? I can post replay if u want to see carriers being immune to quadrilion storms
I'm not sure if you're exaggerating, but 25 ht seems a little excessive. Imo, the solution to mass carrier void is similar to dealing with infestor broodlord back in wol, which is to make sure that they don't get there; or if they do get there, that you're so far ahead you can throw army after army at them and overun them with sheer numbers.
EPT
thanks in advance everyone <3
When does he put the next stargates and fleet beacon down though? I guess just after the third nexus.
