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On April 06 2013 03:52 SteveNick wrote:
Out of curiosity, what cheeses are you guys losing to?
I banned Akilon Wastes because I get proxy 2gated and early pooled on it every single time, and my winrate against terran in 'proper' games on was ridiculously low too. I just got pissed off with it.
But yeah, diamond league. Haven't once beaten a 6 pool or proxy 2gate yet. Should really learn how to, but it just seems like a waste of time when my macro needs so much work.
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On April 06 2013 06:16 Gidded wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 03:52 SteveNick wrote:
Out of curiosity, what cheeses are you guys losing to?
I banned Akilon Wastes because I get proxy 2gated and early pooled on it every single time, and my winrate against terran in 'proper' games on was ridiculously low too. I just got pissed off with it. But yeah, diamond league. Haven't once beaten a 6 pool or proxy 2gate yet. Should really learn how to, but it just seems like a waste of time when my macro needs so much work.
You know the basics of defeating 6 pool right? With FFE just add forge asap and build cannons in mineral line covering 1 assimilator and all patches, if you defend without losing probes you are in a good spot. You can either expand and play standard or try some kind of 4 gate, which works sometimes!
proxy 2 gates i hate aswell 
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I know that's how it works in theory, but I suppose I misplace my cannon or something. The lings get to be annoying for a while.
Truth be told I haven't gotten 6-pooled in quite a while now, and when I did I mostly opened gate first.
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On April 06 2013 06:23 Gidded wrote:
I know that's how it works in theory, but I suppose I misplace my cannon or something. The lings get to be annoying for a while.
Truth be told I haven't gotten 6-pooled in quite a while now, and when I did I mostly opened gate first.
Hey, you should really try what I said in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402753¤tpage=37#728
I'm also diamond and I haven't lost a single game to 6 pool yet in HOTS.
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@Undead:
Yes in PvZ you can still go phoenixes it's very good, im pretty sure oracle and voidrays as early units work aswell but i still prefer my phoenixes like in WoL. Afterwards i usually follow it up with a robotics and then add gates while getting 4-5 phoenixes depending on what i see i will eventually continue. You can go double stargate aswell, but i think single stargate is the way to go atm. Taking your third should happen at around 9-11 minutes also depending on what you see ofc its possible to take it later. When you get such a quick robo you're going colossi pretty similar to WoL.
The other option is what i see many people doing with great succes is to go stargate into gates and then teching to templars and storm while getting voidrays out of your stargate. I feel this is very good against most playstyles, ive been told that if you play that against swarmhost you should get a second stargate and go for them voids and some oracles but i think the robo play is superior in this regard.
Unfortunately i havent faced any good swarmhost playstyle yet so i cant really give you advice in this regard. Abusing the immobility with warp prisms when you already have a robo up can be good at least thats what they told me but i ended my few games to my opponents making mistakes so i dont really know if my playstyle would be legit against a good executing player. When you approach the lategame you should mix in voidrays and templar (assuming you went colossi first) i also feel that some tempest ~3 do a good job in my lategame composition. Sorry im typing from my phone but i hope it may help.
@ShaolinZorg: I generally go zealot stalker nexus, i get the mothership core after the nexus because then it has just enough energy once the expansion finishes for OC (i stole that from a good protoss that gave me this advice) and it works very well. Many people try their own variatons of this you can watch SaSe's stream for example he goes for double gas and fast sentries, personally i prefer the stalker because so many terrans go reaper but as you will see Sases opening is quite good. In terms of skippin the zealot for a MsC i dont really think you need it that early and if you do some
kind of pressure with it like many protoss but i prefer not to do so and unless you do pressure him i feel like such an early MsC doesnt really serve that much of a purpose if you know what i mean.
I hoped this helped gl hf!
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:52 SteveNick wrote:
I think that cheese avoidance is a bad reason to veto a map. I haven't experienced a cheese yet that I couldn't beat with proper control. I also don't scout until 14 and play economically every game.
Out of curiosity, what cheeses are you guys losing to? I'm in mid masters and have had no problem deflecting 2rax all-in with SCV + bunker, proxy gates, daybreak cannon rush, 6 pool, etc from other masters players. These usually just end up being easy wins for me. 95% of these are wins. The only thing that I've found tough to deal with with is FFE vs. early pool, which is actually harder to deal with on a 4player map because on a 2 player map you will be prepared after your 9scout rather than playing blind on a 4 player map.
I've been able to deflect all cheese with a simple 13 gate with standard core timing. I just make a zealot if I see cheese, followed by stalkers and a MSC and adding more gateways as I can afford. Haven't lost to any marine/reaper/zealot/cannon foolery yet.
I don't lose to it as such, but the games that I am playing are pretty worthless. Not just Protoss cheese but a lot of Zerg early pool shenanigans as well.
Not that I just die to such builds, in fact I win most of the time but it just feels like such a waste of a game
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
Incidentally I may at some stage tighten my 'anti-cheese' build and stick it up here for PvP. Works pretty well for 2 player maps and eliminates the need to pylon scout as well so you're better set up for the midgame
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Ive seldom been proxy gated recently, and when I have, I literally havent changed anything except gotten a superfast mothership core (even delaying warpgate). I've not lost against it once O_o. Is that just because my opponents were muppets?
Also I have a 90%+ winrate on Akilon, and I barely ever get cheesed on it. Weird contrast to what everyone else is saying.
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On April 06 2013 09:25 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 03:52 SteveNick wrote:
I think that cheese avoidance is a bad reason to veto a map. I haven't experienced a cheese yet that I couldn't beat with proper control. I also don't scout until 14 and play economically every game.
Out of curiosity, what cheeses are you guys losing to? I'm in mid masters and have had no problem deflecting 2rax all-in with SCV + bunker, proxy gates, daybreak cannon rush, 6 pool, etc from other masters players. These usually just end up being easy wins for me. 95% of these are wins. The only thing that I've found tough to deal with with is FFE vs. early pool, which is actually harder to deal with on a 4player map because on a 2 player map you will be prepared after your 9scout rather than playing blind on a 4 player map.
I've been able to deflect all cheese with a simple 13 gate with standard core timing. I just make a zealot if I see cheese, followed by stalkers and a MSC and adding more gateways as I can afford. Haven't lost to any marine/reaper/zealot/cannon foolery yet. I don't lose to it as such, but the games that I am playing are pretty worthless. Not just Protoss cheese but a lot of Zerg early pool shenanigans as well. Not that I just die to such builds, in fact I win most of the time but it just feels like such a waste of a game
If someone cheeses you and you scout it, then that sounds like a very time-efficient way to get ladder points. I always smile when someone proxy gates vs me because it's free points in under 5 minutes. I can't really see any reason to ban the map just because you don't want to get cheesed on it even though you are likely to win the game :/
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Cheese rarely ever happens anyways. I get cheese in maybe 10% of my games maximum. I think people exaggerate on the frequency.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On April 06 2013 10:42 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 09:25 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 06 2013 03:52 SteveNick wrote:
I think that cheese avoidance is a bad reason to veto a map. I haven't experienced a cheese yet that I couldn't beat with proper control. I also don't scout until 14 and play economically every game.
Out of curiosity, what cheeses are you guys losing to? I'm in mid masters and have had no problem deflecting 2rax all-in with SCV + bunker, proxy gates, daybreak cannon rush, 6 pool, etc from other masters players. These usually just end up being easy wins for me. 95% of these are wins. The only thing that I've found tough to deal with with is FFE vs. early pool, which is actually harder to deal with on a 4player map because on a 2 player map you will be prepared after your 9scout rather than playing blind on a 4 player map.
I've been able to deflect all cheese with a simple 13 gate with standard core timing. I just make a zealot if I see cheese, followed by stalkers and a MSC and adding more gateways as I can afford. Haven't lost to any marine/reaper/zealot/cannon foolery yet. I don't lose to it as such, but the games that I am playing are pretty worthless. Not just Protoss cheese but a lot of Zerg early pool shenanigans as well. Not that I just die to such builds, in fact I win most of the time but it just feels like such a waste of a game If someone cheeses you and you scout it, then that sounds like a very time-efficient way to get ladder points. I always smile when someone proxy gates vs me because it's free points in under 5 minutes. I can't really see any reason to ban the map just because you don't want to get cheesed on it even though you are likely to win the game :/
You are equating ladder points with getting fun games, or games that teach you something about the game.
Beating some scrub who is in a league far beyond what his play merits doesn't really appeal to me.
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On April 06 2013 10:50 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 10:42 Erik.TheRed wrote:On April 06 2013 09:25 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 06 2013 03:52 SteveNick wrote:
I think that cheese avoidance is a bad reason to veto a map. I haven't experienced a cheese yet that I couldn't beat with proper control. I also don't scout until 14 and play economically every game.
Out of curiosity, what cheeses are you guys losing to? I'm in mid masters and have had no problem deflecting 2rax all-in with SCV + bunker, proxy gates, daybreak cannon rush, 6 pool, etc from other masters players. These usually just end up being easy wins for me. 95% of these are wins. The only thing that I've found tough to deal with with is FFE vs. early pool, which is actually harder to deal with on a 4player map because on a 2 player map you will be prepared after your 9scout rather than playing blind on a 4 player map.
I've been able to deflect all cheese with a simple 13 gate with standard core timing. I just make a zealot if I see cheese, followed by stalkers and a MSC and adding more gateways as I can afford. Haven't lost to any marine/reaper/zealot/cannon foolery yet. I don't lose to it as such, but the games that I am playing are pretty worthless. Not just Protoss cheese but a lot of Zerg early pool shenanigans as well. Not that I just die to such builds, in fact I win most of the time but it just feels like such a waste of a game If someone cheeses you and you scout it, then that sounds like a very time-efficient way to get ladder points. I always smile when someone proxy gates vs me because it's free points in under 5 minutes. I can't really see any reason to ban the map just because you don't want to get cheesed on it even though you are likely to win the game :/ You are equating ladder points with getting fun games, or games that teach you something about the game. Beating some scrub who is in a league far beyond what his play merits doesn't really appeal to me.
Getting ladder points means that you are raising your MMR which means you will be less likely to hit scrubs doing proxy gates and 6 pools.
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So how is everyone dealing with the good old 2 base swarmhost nydus all in? I find that a reactionary double robo doesn't cut it at all anymore, as it takes 10-12 colossi just to break out of this, plenty of time for zerg to drone up and get 5-6 bases, corruptors, etc. There just isn't the money on 2 bases to deal with it with a double robo, has anyone come up with anything new?
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About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus.
I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base.
Any other advice with a fast core ?
i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).
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On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote:
About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus.
I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base.
Any other advice with a fast core ?
i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).
Honestly I still 12 gate and 1 gas PvP. It's a bit greedy to double gas and not scout very thoroughly. It's holdable, you have to pull probes and micro though. If you'd like you can proxy 2gate me in base and I'll stop it with a 13 gate so you can have a replay of how to do it.
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i'd like to. can you PM me your ID ?
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On March 31 2013 20:19 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 11:34 hellz.atalvez wrote:
and more embarrassingly: What do I do when I scout a 6 pool. When I wall in and force a stalker it seems to only serve to cause me more pain and heartache in the long run as they can expand all they want for free. I know skytoss is everyone's favorite plan vs zerg, but I really do not care for that kind of style. Against 6 pools, I have won every single game so far easily doing the following (based on what I have seen white-ra do): * If it's a 4 spawn map and you don't find your opponent right away, make a forge immediatly and send a second scout out. * If you see a 6 pool, immediatly build a pylon behind your mineral line. Build a cannon in your mineral line - it should not only cover your mineral probes but also close enough to one of your geysers. Make sure to surround the cannon if the lings attack it so it goes up safely. * Aim for 16 probes on minelras while responding with a proxy 3 gate. The 3 gates should surround your pylon, so lings can't unpower them. Your proxy should be placed somewhere like his third or where he is unlikely to scout. Make sure your zealots do not get trapped between your gates and pylon due to a bad rally. * Get about 5 zealots before streaming them towards the zerg's base. Kill everything you can, if he runs away, take down his pool immediatly. * Make sure to get a gas and a cybernetics core in your base. If the zerg is still alive, just think about the situation. One game, my opponent abandoned his main, got a roach warren, lost his pool, and quite a few spines. I got an oracle and followed up with a gateway push while making a few voids to kill the roaches and bypass the spines as well.
Does this work against 10 pools too?
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On April 06 2013 19:09 owlman wrote:
About the double proxy gate cheese talk . Honnestly i can't fight it properly. i usually lose against it aswell with a standard 13 gate double gaz before core. is there anyway to win against a double proxy gate IN BASE (or natural) with a 13 gate /core ? i tried to rally MsC to the opponent base, kill probes, rebuild a nexus somewhere and try to defend it with planetry nexus.
I just can't kill the zealots with the MsC before they destroy my nexus when i try to defend my initial base.
Any other advice with a fast core ?
i know i can fast scout and add a second gate ( usually i scout way too late, after the gaz).
If the gates are in your base you can build a forge and get a cannon or two in your mineral line. If you want to be safest then you should always be checking your base after your 13 gateway for proxies. If the gates aren't in your base then you can mirror with 2 gates and wait for him to engage so you can pull some probes to fight as well.
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On April 06 2013 16:24 ThaReckoning wrote:
So how is everyone dealing with the good old 2 base swarmhost nydus all in? I find that a reactionary double robo doesn't cut it at all anymore, as it takes 10-12 colossi just to break out of this, plenty of time for zerg to drone up and get 5-6 bases, corruptors, etc. There just isn't the money on 2 bases to deal with it with a double robo, has anyone come up with anything new?
I just feel like anything reactionary vs zerg is bound to be a lost game. U need to have insane scouting to stay ahead, if u do however, you will have a really insane chance. But if you start making colossi after he is doing his push the game is already lost. Same with mutas, if u start adding stargates after u see mutas, game is over. Even if you break out, you are fighting vs a zerg with 5 bases while u might have 2½ or 3.
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I have so much trouble dealing with 2 base swarm host contain. I don't die to it, I normally build a bunch of cannons and then tech to collosus. If the zerg is dumb and keeps building ground units i normally win the game, but being in masters now I find that many zergs are clever and switch into mutas and my stalker count is never good enough because I invested so much into collosus and static defence. Any suggestions on a better way to deal with fast swarm hosts or how to better defend against the mutas.
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