EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 226
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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FortyOzs
189 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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FortyOzs
189 Posts
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On January 22 2014 06:59 FortyOzs wrote: what is standard build vs zerg up to 26 supply Do you want to 1 gate expand, FFE or nexus first? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#1.1 | ||
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JeanBob
Canada295 Posts
And also, I think I read that following up with templars doesn't work as much, but I get problems against infestors every once in a while. Is this an exception where I should follow-up with templars, or is there some way to correctly micro gateway/robo/stargate units to dodge the fungals and focus the infestors? | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13400 Posts
On January 22 2014 09:14 JeanBob wrote: In PvZ, I like going FFE into stargate, skip the first void ray and go straight to phoenixes. However, I don't exactly know when to make a push with it. I can harass all day, but lose a lot of matches because I do nothing with the other units. So what would be a good timing to attack after/while harassing with phoenixes, depending on the follow-up? And also, I think I read that following up with templars doesn't work as much, but I get problems against infestors every once in a while. Is this an exception where I should follow-up with templars, or is there some way to correctly micro gateway/robo/stargate units to dodge the fungals and focus the infestors? One phoenix, then void rays. for more please see our new guide here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=441482 :D Templar after air is really strong but as the guide points out you need to be careful for particular timings. | ||
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Helikptrfisk
Sweden35 Posts
Maybe opening 3-4 phoenix and then going voids? Or opening robo for immortals against stalkers and then going for voidrays? http://www.twitch.tv/sc2proleague/b/494654908 (Both players opening phoenix and one of them swithing to ground and the other voidrays) Im thinking of trying to open: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvp/pvp-hwangsins-stargate-expand/ and then going 3-4 phoenix and then swithing to voids. Ofcourse its a bad strategy, otherwise pros would be doing it all the time =)). But what is the flaw? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Helikptrfisk
Sweden35 Posts
Its not like it gets rolled over by some easy gateway-push after it has been scouted? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Helikptrfisk
Sweden35 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 23 2014 21:55 Helikptrfisk wrote: Oh, thats a neat counter. Thx alot Archon/stalker really does absolutely demolish void ray heavy builds in the midgame: archons tank for the stalkers while the stalkers destroy the voids. The major problem is that if the voids attack the stalkers, there's nothing to kill the archons which will eat all the zealots like candy, so you have to sit behind a building wall to not die to it. But if you're doing that, like Teoita said, the archon/stalker player will just take a third and macro up. More importantly, upgrades make that style basically unplayable going into the late game. If you're on a mix of air units and ground units and your opponent is just ground, you're going to be quite a bit behind him on upgrades, making a large portion of your army substantially weaker. All of these things combined to make the void ray style go out of practice. Phoenix openings and oracle openings are quite strong however. | ||
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Helikptrfisk
Sweden35 Posts
And on Polar nights and Habitation station it looks possible to defend a simcitied third by flying between nat and 3rd? What is the other toss going to do, take 6 bases and 130 probes? And then you go mass voidray, mineraldumping on cannons and simcity and zealots from warpprisms. Lategame you got the airupgrades for bigger air units. I know you got the experience and I don't. Im just theorycrafting, but I will try it out =)) I am very thankfull for your knowledge/input or how to say. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 24 2014 02:29 Helikptrfisk wrote: On alterzim you can have your third as a natural. Then you easily get your 3 bases going behind walls. And on Polar nights and Habitation station it looks possible to defend a simcitied third by flying between nat and 3rd? What is the other toss going to do, take 6 bases and 130 probes? And then you go mass voidray, mineraldumping on cannons and simcity and zealots from warpprisms. Lategame you got the airupgrades for bigger air units. I know you got the experience and I don't. Im just theorycrafting, but I will try it out =)) I am very thankfull for your knowledge/input or how to say. You can't reliably hold that: going voidrays is going to put you at a unit count disadvantage vs. your opponent, and your composition in the midgame is weaker than your opponents if he's doing the standard immortal/zealot/archon army. Then in the late game, if you somehow haven't died or fallen way behind, all he needs is storm to crush your void rays. It's not a strong composition. You can't really wall off your third on either map either, and if you have to move between two bases, there's going to be a location where they can intercept you in the open (or at least your ground forces). | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On January 23 2014 21:37 Helikptrfisk wrote: How come we see so little macro-based voidray pvp? Maybe opening 3-4 phoenix and then going voids? Or opening robo for immortals against stalkers and then going for voidrays? http://www.twitch.tv/sc2proleague/b/494654908 (Both players opening phoenix and one of them swithing to ground and the other voidrays) Im thinking of trying to open: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvp/pvp-hwangsins-stargate-expand/ and then going 3-4 phoenix and then swithing to voids. Ofcourse its a bad strategy, otherwise pros would be doing it all the time =)). But what is the flaw? If you want to go void rays in PvP, you need to switch to carriers after ~10 void rays. If you get enough carriers, you can actually fight a stalker/storm/archon army. The first problem is that your opponent will always have a bigger army in the midgame, so you need to play very defensive (a ton of cannons). Even if your army is stronger and you can clean up his army, the following warp ins would still kill you istantly, which means that you can't engage outside your bases until you're maxed out. The second problem is a tempest switch, which will kill you too because those make carriers totally useless. So you need to scout costantly to see if your opponent is building stargates, in which case you need to immediately get tempests on your own. There's no "solid" way of going skytoss in PvP though. Additionally, even if you reach the lategame it produces incredibly boring games, because your opponent will eventually switch to skytoss on his own, and which protoss air unit counters all the others? Tempests (not void rays). Just imagine what a 30 tempests vs 30 tempests game (I've played them) looks like and you'll forget about playing this style. | ||
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Tharkun
France43 Posts
I mean the "not all-in version" : zerg just drops his hatch on your natural and proceeds quickly to take his own natural and builds up his economy while you kill the proxy hatch. At this point, protoss has 2 choices : - take his natural waaaay late and somehow try to make up for it by applying some kind of mild pressure to slow down drone production => not ideal - all-in on 1 base. But with good scouting zerg holds any 1 base pressure very easily => even less ideal So what do you guys do ? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
Why don't Protoss players multiprong harass more in TvP? I mean like double warp prism? Would that weaken the main army that much? | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On January 25 2014 10:35 Chaggi wrote: I don't mean to troll cause I'm a Terran player but legit question Why don't Protoss players multiprong harass more in TvP? I mean like double warp prism? Would that weaken the main army that much? warp prisms are built from the same building as colossus and observers | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On January 25 2014 10:35 Chaggi wrote: I don't mean to troll cause I'm a Terran player but legit question Why don't Protoss players multiprong harass more in TvP? I mean like double warp prism? Would that weaken the main army that much? For several reasons. Warp prisms are easily countered by vikings, which are way more useful in this matchup than phoenixes. Medivacs can boost away from most threats and still deal with phoenix that chase them by dropping marines. Warp prisms are much more vulnerable to vikings and will probably have high templar or zealots inside, which won't be able to save the warp prism. Turret rings prove troublesome, while cannons don't discourage drops as much anymore because the medivacs can bypass static defensively easily with the medivac boost. Most terrans will have reasonably defended thirds with a bunker and their fourth shouldn't have any issues with drops because it's always a planetary, their natural is usually not hard to defend because it's their rally point, and there are always units coming out at their main (+ the units at the natural to help defend the main too). Protoss harassment is also expensive because you are much less likely to "recycle" harassment units if you're doing a zealot drop, unlike terran. Not to mention they don't serve much of a purpose besides harassing, which can be shut down as previously explained, and helping you flank the terran with HT. A single pylon next to the terran's third + a warp prism are usually enough for harassment, and if you save your warp prism, you can use it for flanking in the late game. 2 warp prisms are usually overkill. It can work, don't get me wrong. Yet, we're discouraged to invest much in harassment because we need a lot of tech in the midgame, we usually take our thirds after the terran, and mules that further increase a terran's economic lead. Oh yeah, and what the previous poster said too regarding colossi and observers, obviously. | ||
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