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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On January 20 2014 02:01 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Is it just me or is cannon rushing in PvP becoming VERY common? It's pretty normal, but it also has to do with the map pool a little bit. Habitation Station, Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, and Daedalus all provide really good opportunities for cheese and cannon rushes. | ||
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Gamlet
Ukraine336 Posts
On January 11 2014 20:52 Teoita wrote: That's only viable maps like Daybreak where you can abuse the space behind the mineral line to harass it, and even then it's extremely gimmicky. Polar night nice for it.revelation must have. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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aznheat80
United States186 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
On January 20 2014 07:52 aznheat80 wrote: I'm watching the mlg gameon invitational, how are you supposed to beat the swarmhosts/corruptor/infestor/viper/mass static defense that Catz does? As long as the zerg has spores and spines everywhere, if the map gets mined out, zerg seems pretty invincible. You should watch minigun, he is very good vs this style. His biggest tip is to keep the hosts on the zerg half of the map. IF you dont see it, and they get to your bases, you've probably lost the game. A lot of AoE, no archons (they are too low range and end up just trading) and a mothership. Eventually Minigun adds an oracle and gets 3 or 4 tempests poking at the zerg with oracle vision, and cannons and storm to defend. All while harassing and killing opponent bases with 2 or 3 prisms. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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Waise
3165 Posts
On January 20 2014 08:36 DarkLordOlli wrote: It's probably not possible to completely play like him for anyone who isn't a full time professional korean but he's by far the highest level protoss streamer and is definitely one of the best anti-swarmhost protoss in the world. and keep in mind that even if you're not hero, your opponent isn't going to be hero's opponent either. professional zergs make mistakes with swarm host control all the time (can't count how many times i've seen unburrowed swarm hosts walk into the protoss army because of burrow AI + locust rally), so subprofessional ones will be even shakier. try to outmaneuver them and force them to use good control. i understand why swarm hosts seem like sit back and do nothing mode to a toss player, but they aren't. if you don't position well, you die. if you lack map awareness and misrally locusts, you die. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
On January 20 2014 10:59 Waise wrote: and keep in mind that even if you're not hero, your opponent isn't going to be hero's opponent either. professional zergs make mistakes with swarm host control all the time (can't count how many times i've seen unburrowed swarm hosts walk into the protoss army because of burrow AI + locust rally), so subprofessional ones will be even shakier. try to outmaneuver them and force them to use good control. i understand why swarm hosts seem like sit back and do nothing mode to a toss player, but they aren't. if you don't position well, you die. if you lack map awareness and misrally locusts, you die. True, but regardless of who you watch to learn to deal with it, letting the hosts get to the front of your base and besieging you will just lead to terrible things. when you dont have the flexibility to maneuver around them is the point in which you lost I guess is the best way to say it. If your army is behind a wall and you cant flank the hosts if locusts go the wrong way (the only way is forward if you are behind a wall) then you can't do much with positioning. | ||
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
Once you stabilize you can harass around the map and try to out control/position your opponent. | ||
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Gamlet
Ukraine336 Posts
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
I feel like I am losing because I am expecting my opponent to be better than they actually are. For example if they ling rush off of 1-base and I hold, I try to then expand. Only then I find out they are still going all lings off of 1-base 15 mins into the game. Something like that. How do I prevent from losing like this? Just expect cheese all the time? | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On January 21 2014 10:57 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Odd question: I feel like I am losing because I am expecting my opponent to be better than they actually are. For example if they ling rush off of 1-base and I hold, I try to then expand. Only then I find out they are still going all lings off of 1-base 15 mins into the game. Something like that. How do I prevent from losing like this? Just expect cheese all the time? For ladder, just play a safe and macro-oriented style and you'll crush almost anyone who is doing dumb shit. The only thing you're lacking in is scouting: look at the replay and figure out definitively when and how you need to scout in order to survive versus a followup pressure. Otherwise, just play safe. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 21 2014 11:02 SC2John wrote: For ladder, just play a safe and macro-oriented style and you'll crush almost anyone who is doing dumb shit. The only thing you're lacking in is scouting: look at the replay and figure out definitively when and how you need to scout in order to survive versus a followup pressure. Otherwise, just play safe. Just to follow up on this, try not to have the attitude of dissing your opponent's skill after they beat you, or even really thinking about how skilled or unskilled the people you play are. It's more than likely that he faces the same response you did when he does that aggression all the time, and thus planned his follow up as a prediction. Regardless, it doesn't matter how skilled or unskilled someone is if they beat you: you made a mistake that cost you the game. That attitude can slow your learning down. But yeah, the general solution to your problem is scouting. When I get all-inned like that early on, I keep my probe scout out on the map and hide it, and run it in to check for a natural and check drone counts. I also tend to go stargate on one base and take my natural while the SG is going up, since a void ray basically makes you about as safe as you can be, and you'll want the SG anyway in case they go mutas later. | ||
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Tharkun
France43 Posts
1) If I gate expand, and he takes a fast 3rd around 4:00 (as if I was forge fast expanding), do I have to punish that with a strong push/all-in not to be behind ? 2) In PvP, i think everyone would agree that if you don't have any form of detection by the 8-9 mn mark, then you really deserve to lose to DTs, as your detection is so late. Similarly, could we say that in PvZ, if you don't have a stargate by the 15mn mark, you deserve to lose to a muta tech switch ? If yes, are robo openings really a good option in PvZ, as they don't include the much needed stargate right away ? | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On January 21 2014 18:48 Tharkun wrote: A couple of questions on PvZ : 1) If I gate expand, and he takes a fast 3rd around 4:00 (as if I was forge fast expanding), do I have to punish that with a strong push/all-in not to be behind ? 2) In PvP, i think everyone would agree that if you don't have any form of detection by the 8-9 mn mark, then you really deserve to lose to DTs, as your detection is so late. Similarly, could we say that in PvZ, if you don't have a stargate by the 15mn mark, you deserve to lose to a muta tech switch ? If yes, are robo openings really a good option in PvZ, as they don't include the much needed stargate right away ? 1. No, but a warpgate timing is almost guaranteed to put you ahead (i.e., a 3-gate/oracle pressure or 4-gate). Any zerg willing to put down a quick third hatch before gas is asking for it to be sniped. Likewise, it's possible for you to take your own stupid fast third off of no units since speed won't be finished until ~7-8 minutes. See almost any Naniwa game. 2. In order to play robo styles in PvZ, you need to be really aggressive and abuse recall as much as possible. For instance, a common way to go robo is: zealot/stalker/MSC poke -> warpgate pressure -> immortal/sentry pressure -> blink/+2 pressure. The reasoning behind this is that by being aggressive, you force your opponent to constantly make make units and never actually build up a bank; no bank = no ability for the zerg to surprise you with 10+ mutas. If your opponent goes mutas anyway, usually you can either outright kill him with a push (see Dear vs. Soulkey at WCS S3 Finals) or you can buy enough time with blink stalkers to get phoenixes out. | ||
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Harreh
90 Posts
Also, is it me or are random players the cheesiest motherfuckers around? early pools, proxy rax, 4-gates... I guess they need to play random to have strategic diversity..... | ||
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Ravenoz
Germany16 Posts
On January 22 2014 01:40 Harreh wrote: How am I to adjust my build when I play vs random? I have different gas/nexus timings for each match up. Should I just 9-scout or 13-gateway scout? Also, is it me or are random players the cheesiest motherfuckers around? early pools, proxy rax, 4-gates... I guess they need to play random to have strategic diversity..... i normally 9 scout. on 2 player maps u know what he is early enough so that it doesnt screw up your build too much (unless u go nexus first against zerg or something). on 4 player maps i just start to do my pvp build, as that is the build that relies the most on timings. when i find out what he is i continue with my matchup specific BO as best as possible. | ||
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Tharkun
France43 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On January 22 2014 01:46 Ravenoz wrote: i normally 9 scout. on 2 player maps u know what he is early enough so that it doesnt screw up your build too much (unless u go nexus first against zerg or something). on 4 player maps i just start to do my pvp build, as that is the build that relies the most on timings. when i find out what he is i continue with my matchup specific BO as best as possible. Unless you're going nexus first, 9 scouting messes up your build so much it isn't even funny. I always tell people to scout on 13 against random and put a wall at your main ramp on 4-player maps. You don't need to scout earlier because it won't change your first set of buildings and you can hold most super cheesy things with a good sim city and micro (and scouting around your base). Against random, just plan to do a 1-gate FE and adjust it as needed based on the scouting information you get. Sometimes you're taking a little bit of a gamble, but only like one out of ten times will you get unlucky with your scouting and your opponent will have the perfect build to counter you, etc. On January 22 2014 02:09 Tharkun wrote: Thanks for the great answers SC2John np | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
If I'm constantly putting on pressure is it better to transition into colossus, or double forge chargelot/archon? I usually end up with about 5 gates a robo and twilight and single forge when I have to choose which tech route to take. | ||
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