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United States7483 Posts
On January 14 2014 07:15 Heartland wrote:
For the Habitation Station "problem" what do you think about opening FFE, then going into +1 four-gate and then into Stargate tech? FFE allows you to cannon gold-first (whether three hatch before pool or just hatch first on the gold). +1 zealots will kill off speedlings and allows you to assault the gold, and Stargates can go into VRs, Tempests, etc.
Should work for anything up to GM really, but that's true of this build on basically any map. The +1 four gate zealots is a strat that can be beaten on normal maps no problem if they anticipate it and their macro is on par: they can have roaches out in time. The gold makes it more likely for them to defend it if they are paying attention, since they can afford to make units sooner and since doing the +1 4 gate will delay your own third base.
I'd honestly suggest that just taking the third faster and walling it is a better play.
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On January 14 2014 07:18 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 07:15 Heartland wrote:
For the Habitation Station "problem" what do you think about opening FFE, then going into +1 four-gate and then into Stargate tech? FFE allows you to cannon gold-first (whether three hatch before pool or just hatch first on the gold). +1 zealots will kill off speedlings and allows you to assault the gold, and Stargates can go into VRs, Tempests, etc. Should work for anything up to GM really, but that's true of this build on basically any map. The +1 four gate zealots is a strat that can be beaten on normal maps no problem if they anticipate it and their macro is on par: they can have roaches out in time. The gold makes it more likely for them to defend it if they are paying attention, since they can afford to make units sooner and since doing the +1 4 gate will delay your own third base. I'd honestly suggest that just taking the third faster and walling it is a better play.
Yeah, that's true. I guess my idea originally came out of the fact that I was worried about Zergs opening speedlings and then taking the gold behind it when they got complete map control. The FFE into four-gate +1 should defeat that, but you're right that Roaches can probably tear up the build.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 14 2014 07:22 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 07:18 Whitewing wrote:On January 14 2014 07:15 Heartland wrote:
For the Habitation Station "problem" what do you think about opening FFE, then going into +1 four-gate and then into Stargate tech? FFE allows you to cannon gold-first (whether three hatch before pool or just hatch first on the gold). +1 zealots will kill off speedlings and allows you to assault the gold, and Stargates can go into VRs, Tempests, etc. Should work for anything up to GM really, but that's true of this build on basically any map. The +1 four gate zealots is a strat that can be beaten on normal maps no problem if they anticipate it and their macro is on par: they can have roaches out in time. The gold makes it more likely for them to defend it if they are paying attention, since they can afford to make units sooner and since doing the +1 4 gate will delay your own third base. I'd honestly suggest that just taking the third faster and walling it is a better play. Yeah, that's true. I guess my idea originally came out of the fact that I was worried about Zergs opening speedlings and then taking the gold behind it when they got complete map control. The FFE into four-gate +1 should defeat that, but you're right that Roaches can probably tear up the build.
If you take your third at a good timing and wall it, there's not much speedlings can do about it. Especially if you're going void ray, it just puts a clock on any aggression. The extra minerals from the gold should make it so you can afford an extra cannon or two no problem to be safe. The mothership core helps out a lot too. I like to do a poke with a zealot, stalker, and msc while getting the stargate to see what he's up to: I can usually find out if he's going speed or not. Remember: if he takes a super fast third, either his drone count will be very low or his speed will be late. You can judge whether some kind of aggression is coming by looking for what he doesn't have.
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The recent discussion about voidray heavy builds in pvz made me do a stargate transition after my sangate opening in pvz. I have a question regarding transitions: 1. How many stargates should i add at which time? My 4 gate pressure usually starts at ~ 6:15 - 6:30 and ends about one minute later (either gets should down by mass speedling or i kill the third and recall). I usually build a stargate and immediately take my third. 2. When is it necessary to have at least one colossus out or is it better to have storm instead? I included a replay here.
thx for the answers
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Might have posted this before, but I have no idea how to beat Mech, even when I scout it very early on. It doesn't make sense to me, whatever I try to counter with doesn't work....
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United States4883 Posts
On January 15 2014 09:44 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Might have posted this before, but I have no idea how to beat Mech, even when I scout it very early on. It doesn't make sense to me, whatever I try to counter with doesn't work....
The best way to beat mech, imo, is:
1) open up blink, harass with blink stalkers/immortals and delay the Terran 3rd base for as long as possible. Once the Terran is able to take the 3rd, just continue pressuring with warp prisms and multi-pronged blink/immortal attacks until you can attack with a huge immortal/archon/zealot army.
2) Open with 4-6 immortals and 2 colossus (double robo) and pressure the Terran player and keep them from getting a 4th up easily while transitioning to 3-stargate void ray. Once you hit like 10 void rays and have a sizeable immortal/archon/chargelot army, just attack into the mech army and win.
In both scenarios you should be taking 3-4 bases and defending them with cannons and a good sim city to deny hellions. I honestly think playing super passive and going into the ultra late game with mass tempests/immortals is a surefire way to lose. If you're not sure what I'm talking about, watch some of Strelok's stream and watch what happens when he gets owned.
On January 15 2014 06:34 Ravenoz wrote:The recent discussion about voidray heavy builds in pvz made me do a stargate transition after my sangate opening in pvz. I have a question regarding transitions: 1. How many stargates should i add at which time? My 4 gate pressure usually starts at ~ 6:15 - 6:30 and ends about one minute later (either gets should down by mass speedling or i kill the third and recall). I usually build a stargate and immediately take my third. 2. When is it necessary to have at least one colossus out or is it better to have storm instead? I included a replay here. thx for the answers
I'll try to watch the replay later, but I'll give you some quick generic advice:
Your game plan sounds pretty good so far. So...stargate counts and upgrades and all that are very complicated, but I'll try to lay it out in a way that makes sense. In general, though, Void Ray/Colossus is a "greedier", defensive play while Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar is a lot more flexible. Both are viable, it just depends on what playstyle fits you better.
Void Ray/Colossus:
- Usually low number of stargates (1-2)
- No air upgrades, only ground attack upgrades
- 1-3 void rays -> Robo -> robo bay
Void ray/chargelot/templar (3 stargates):
- 3 stargates
- +1 air attack, +1 shields
- Go up to 6-8 void rays, then add on extra tech
- "Safer" early on, but very vulnerable to mid game timings, particularly queen timings
Void ray/chargelot/templar (1-2 stargates):
- Less stargates = faster tech
- Usually ground attack uprades
- Less void rays = faster tech, 6-8 is "safe"
- Less vulnerable to mid game attacks, but thinner defenses earlier on
TL Strategy is working on a PvZ Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar guide right now, hopefully for a release at the end of this month. Hopefully that will help out your PvZ some  .
On January 14 2014 07:22 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 07:18 Whitewing wrote:On January 14 2014 07:15 Heartland wrote:
For the Habitation Station "problem" what do you think about opening FFE, then going into +1 four-gate and then into Stargate tech? FFE allows you to cannon gold-first (whether three hatch before pool or just hatch first on the gold). +1 zealots will kill off speedlings and allows you to assault the gold, and Stargates can go into VRs, Tempests, etc. Should work for anything up to GM really, but that's true of this build on basically any map. The +1 four gate zealots is a strat that can be beaten on normal maps no problem if they anticipate it and their macro is on par: they can have roaches out in time. The gold makes it more likely for them to defend it if they are paying attention, since they can afford to make units sooner and since doing the +1 4 gate will delay your own third base. I'd honestly suggest that just taking the third faster and walling it is a better play. Yeah, that's true. I guess my idea originally came out of the fact that I was worried about Zergs opening speedlings and then taking the gold behind it when they got complete map control. The FFE into four-gate +1 should defeat that, but you're right that Roaches can probably tear up the build.
Yeah, the only purpose of +1 4-gate is to take a third "safely". You should never be able to damage or deny the third, especially if the third is a gold base (that is, unless the Zerg player is absolutely awful, which happens quite a bit on ladder). On a map like Habitation Station where it's so easy to take the third and wall off, it would be easier to just take it off of like 1 gateway unit lol.
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One thing that I have played against on Habitation Station and seen on pro streams is crazy fast roach/ling (not)all-ins off the gold base, either going hatch first at gold, or going super fast third at gold and then saturating it before the natural, that is intended to either take out a fast third or to bust your natural if your third is defended, and this puts you far behind if it works+ Show Spoiler +Babyknight just lost to Dimaga doing this on the eSportsventure cup. It didn't kill him outright but put him far behind so the followup finished him off. Dimaga's roach/ling attack when Babyknight was around 70 supply, with Dimaga around 100 supply, which is roughly the same as what I have seen playing against them
Is there a more stable way of holding this gold base without getting massively behind economically? Obviously you could do a slower, safer expand, but then you will be even further behind because of the gold. A super fast third and building wall with cannons for defence works okay, but leaves the natural vulnerable to the above roach/ling attack.
This gold base creates some weird situations to say the least. I've also faced 3 games where they go hatch first at gold then do a nydus worm roach/queen all-in off two bases. Fast third outright dies to this obviously. It's easy to scout but tough to hold.
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Okay here is a sad question I must ask:
I don't know how to beat a 6-pool. Usually I go for a Gateway expand in PvZ with the wall at the main ramp. So as soon as I get my first scout I see it's a 6-pool. I try to get Zealots out, and complete the wall off, but it seems to fail all the time.
So how do you defend against a 6-pool with a Gateway expand?
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Italy12246 Posts
Micro your probes while you buy time for the first zealot to complete. If he goes for the pylon, attack the lings with a handful of probes. If the lings go for your probes, mineral stack them in your mineral line and try to get a surround off. Micro back injured probes. Once your first zealot is out you can defend the lings easily, with 3/4 probes if necessary if he still has all 6 alive.
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On January 17 2014 02:36 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Okay here is a sad question I must ask:
I don't know how to beat a 6-pool. Usually I go for a Gateway expand in PvZ with the wall at the main ramp. So as soon as I get my first scout I see it's a 6-pool. I try to get Zealots out, and complete the wall off, but it seems to fail all the time.
So how do you defend against a 6-pool with a Gateway expand?
You need to complete your wall with a pylon. After that, get a mothership core asap , once it's out you shouldn't have any problem in holding it with some probe micro.
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I'm considering a DT build in PvP because I already use a chargelot/archon build in PvT and would like to play with the same composition.
Is this build a gamble or is it safe vs most PvP builds?
How do I defend against oracles?
Should I try to get DTs early enough to possibly catch him without detection and win? Or should I use the DTs for defence mainly, expand and go for the chargelot/archon combo?
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Hey guys I'm having trouble in PvZ with ling/baneling busts off 1 or 2 bases and realized I have no clue how I'm supposed to react when I scout this. Normally i'm trying to play extra greedy since I either die to huge armies of hydra corruptors and the insta-remax or the muta switch, so I'm having all kinds of problems recently it seems. I'm trying to learn some crisp timings early on since that's normally my weakness in this matchup but now I'm getting a lot of these ling/baneling busts early on and even if I survive the initial attack, the flood of zerglings after that usually finishes me off. Anyone have any tips for this?
Just some extra information I'm usually going with a Gateway expand, I learned this neat build from Sora that gets a very early stalker before the nexus to kill OL that Zerg players are usually sloppy with early on vs Protoss.
http://flatlinesc2.com/2013/10/build/pvz-soras-gateway-expand-build/
That's a link to the opener I'm using and would appreciate any help on this! thanks guys.
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On January 17 2014 04:31 Azoryen wrote:
I'm considering a DT build in PvP because I already use a chargelot/archon build in PvT and would like to play with the same composition.
Is this build a gamble or is it safe vs most PvP builds?
How do I defend against oracles?
Should I try to get DTs early enough to possibly catch him without detection and win? Or should I use the DTs for defence mainly, expand and go for the chargelot/archon combo?
Hey man I have some decent experience with this build in PvP so I figured i'd try and help a little. When I do this build I normally just do a quick scout in my base after the gateway, and then send an actual scout after the CyberCore that is a very nice timing that lets you see if he's going for any quick tech, and how much gas and pylons that gives a good idea of what he's up to early on. And then I go for a Twilight Council in my base, you can hide it if you want, and with that scouting probe try and keep it alive so you can set up a proxy pylon on the map. And then i'll proxy the Dark Shrine at the pylon location. When the Dark Shrine is halfway done, start 2 extra gateways for a total of 3. And you can choose how fast you want to expand based on your scouting info. Once the Dark Shrine finishes, I warp in 1 DT at the proxy and 1 DT in my base for defense. If he's going for some super quick aggression, warp in 2 DTs at your base and when you have a chance, warp in 1 at the proxy location for a counter attack which should get plenty of probe kills or force him to warp in at home which is never good if you are going early aggro.
Early on I am getting 2-3 Stalkers for defense against Oracles and making sure to rally at least 2 to the mineral line to minimize probe losses if he decides to just suicide for as many probes as possible. And if he decides to really commit to SkyToss you already have a Twilight council up to get Blink, and you can morph the DTs into archons as well, or you can just drop 2 Stargates and commit to SkyToss yourself with either Phoenix or VoidRays. And the early expansion allows you to have a nice economy which depending on the opponents opener, should be much better due to the investment into the Oracle that you hopefully killed off. The DT you warp in at the proxy is also helpful for scouting info if you get into his base but he has detection ready. If he's just using sentries to FF the ramp, warp in 2 more DTs, have 2 morph into archon and break the FF and run in with the 3rd DT. If you do a lot of damage just keep warping in DTs.
But ya this build is very flexible which is nice, and the Dark Shrine isn't too much of an investment to where you can't switch tech paths based on scouting info. Just make sure to get 2-3 stalkers early on to defend against Oracles. And if he goes for a Robo build, you can still warp in 1 DT incase he didn't get an Obs and try disabling the Robo before he can react, and drop a Robo of your own while using the DTs for archons/chargelot since you already have the tech needed. Immortal/archon/chargelot is a very strong composition in this matchup, and in my experience, valuing composition over anytthing else has brought me the most success. Even if you are down in economy, having the right composition will keep you alive until you are caught up in that aspect due to trading much more efficiently. GL HF hope this helped.
Oh and also check out Dear's DT expand build for a reference!
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On January 17 2014 04:31 Azoryen wrote:
I'm considering a DT build in PvP because I already use a chargelot/archon build in PvT and would like to play with the same composition.
Is this build a gamble or is it safe vs most PvP builds?
How do I defend against oracles?
Should I try to get DTs early enough to possibly catch him without detection and win? Or should I use the DTs for defence mainly, expand and go for the chargelot/archon combo?
This build is extremely safe if you get a robo before expanding. That way, you can have an observer in time against dts and early immortals if your opponent went blink. If you want to expand before robo, you need to make sure that your opponent isn't going dts or blink.
I usually build only a mothership core and a stalker until i warp in DTs because you don't need really more than that in the early game, you can rely on photon overcharge and defensive dts.
Against oracle you either have at least 2 stalkers (2nd stalker delays you a bit though) before ~6:30 or you need to use photon overcharge.
Going dts purely defensively is pointless since they are pretty good offensively, even if he has detection you can use a warp prism to snipe some probes in the assimilators and then load the DT up again. With the build I use, I warp in 2 (or 3 if I'm being attacked and I skip the robo) DTs at ~6:35. I
f you want to go chargelot archon you'd rather use templar archives since it makes archons way less expensive.
However, pure chargelot/archon isn't a good composition in PvP. It can work in the early game, but attacks are countered pretty easily by wall offs since you don't have ranged units. Once your opponent gets colossi, unless you have a lot of immortals you can't take engagements because all of your zealots will die immediately and then archons alone don't do much.
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On January 17 2014 04:31 Azoryen wrote:
I'm considering a DT build in PvP because I already use a chargelot/archon build in PvT and would like to play with the same composition.
Is this build a gamble or is it safe vs most PvP builds?
How do I defend against oracles?
Should I try to get DTs early enough to possibly catch him without detection and win? Or should I use the DTs for defence mainly, expand and go for the chargelot/archon combo?
I wrote a big post in this thread on dts a while back, and you may find it useful. Anyway, dt openings are as safe or unsafe as you want them to be. You can open in such a way that you are completely safe against everything, but this will put you behind against greedy economic builds (e.g. 1 gate nexus into robo). On the other hand, you can take a nexus right after twilight, which is great economically but will die to everything.
I didn't specifically mention oracle defense in that linked post, so I will here. If you go 1 gate dt expand, there's no way around being forced to use the nexus cannon to defend, along with your stalker. If your dt sees no expansion, it's wise to cancel the robo and get blink, along with more stalkers to defend your mineral lines.
Also, don't go pure chargelot archon. You need a healthy amount of immortals to make that composition work. Making archons out of dts in a macro game is poor idea as well.
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Thx guys, you are great help!
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On January 17 2014 02:36 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Okay here is a sad question I must ask:
I don't know how to beat a 6-pool. Usually I go for a Gateway expand in PvZ with the wall at the main ramp. So as soon as I get my first scout I see it's a 6-pool. I try to get Zealots out, and complete the wall off, but it seems to fail all the time.
So how do you defend against a 6-pool with a Gateway expand?
There's many ways to do it.
The way I do it is as the lings get close to your base, complete you wall with a pylon while chronoing a zealot. You should find that the zealot will complete before the pylon is done. Cancel the pylon, move the zealot into that hole and chrono another zealot.
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On January 17 2014 12:07 Dracover wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 02:36 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Okay here is a sad question I must ask:
I don't know how to beat a 6-pool. Usually I go for a Gateway expand in PvZ with the wall at the main ramp. So as soon as I get my first scout I see it's a 6-pool. I try to get Zealots out, and complete the wall off, but it seems to fail all the time.
So how do you defend against a 6-pool with a Gateway expand? There's many ways to do it. The way I do it is as the lings get close to your base, complete you wall with a pylon while chronoing a zealot. You should find that the zealot will complete before the pylon is done. Cancel the pylon, move the zealot into that hole and chrono another zealot.
What if the lings get the wall before the Zealot though? And do I rally the Zealot to fight the lings or to behind the wall?
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That's what the pylon is for, to stop them getting in. If your Zealot gets to the hole in time, he should be on Hold position in the choke so that Lings cannot get a surround on him. Careful with your rally of the Zealot, though. If you rally him across the ramp, then he might get surrounded and you don't want that.
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On January 17 2014 05:02 ArTiFaKs wrote:Hey guys I'm having trouble in PvZ with ling/baneling busts off 1 or 2 bases and realized I have no clue how I'm supposed to react when I scout this. Normally i'm trying to play extra greedy since I either die to huge armies of hydra corruptors and the insta-remax or the muta switch, so I'm having all kinds of problems recently it seems. I'm trying to learn some crisp timings early on since that's normally my weakness in this matchup but now I'm getting a lot of these ling/baneling busts early on and even if I survive the initial attack, the flood of zerglings after that usually finishes me off. Anyone have any tips for this? Just some extra information I'm usually going with a Gateway expand, I learned this neat build from Sora that gets a very early stalker before the nexus to kill OL that Zerg players are usually sloppy with early on vs Protoss. http://flatlinesc2.com/2013/10/build/pvz-soras-gateway-expand-build/That's a link to the opener I'm using and would appreciate any help on this! thanks guys.
Hey sorry I think this got buried under some other posts, if anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate it!
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EPT
