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On January 17 2014 02:36 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Okay here is a sad question I must ask:
I don't know how to beat a 6-pool. Usually I go for a Gateway expand in PvZ with the wall at the main ramp. So as soon as I get my first scout I see it's a 6-pool. I try to get Zealots out, and complete the wall off, but it seems to fail all the time.
So how do you defend against a 6-pool with a Gateway expand?
With what you have described, this is the standard defense
Lately I've been runing quite often in phoenix vs phoenix but somehow I lose all of them... I don't know what to do in this case or rather i do the same as the other player but for some reason he has always a bit more or upgrades a bit quicker. Any tips?
On January 17 2014 23:06 JSK wrote: In PvT you are supposed to delay your 3rd until after the 2 medivac timing has been pushed back, right? Just checking.
Yes, unless he rushed for a fast third CC, in which case you should take yours as soon as he does, which will delay his timing by a bit.
Generally, you want to wait for terran to take a third before you do, unless you're absolutely sure that you are ahead (if you just killed a bunch of army with no losses for example). Make sure to scout constantly though, if your third is much later than his, you are in trouble.
On January 17 2014 18:47 Lazzi wrote: Lately I've been runing quite often in phoenix vs phoenix but somehow I lose all of them... I don't know what to do in this case or rather i do the same as the other player but for some reason he has always a bit more or upgrades a bit quicker. Any tips?
Lol, same.
Theres 2 things I think.. 1) when you add a second Starport for more phoenix 2) when your phoenix range upgrade finishes. If you add your second starport faster you'll always have more, and if you finish range before he does, you can outright win the game.
My troubles with this is I tend to make too many things that aren't phoenixes, fall SLIGHTLY behind in phoenix count, and then lose by a landslide (that's how it works).
I'm going to outline some circumstances and my analysis of the situation below. Just critique my thought process and tell me if I say something stupid in there (something in there probably will be stupid, I'm a bad player and so is my opponent).
So I've been doing customs against a protoss friend a fair bit as of late, and he likes to do something interesting. I usually open 4-gate or 3-gate all-in (for practice, I know standard play is 3 stalker rush into dt/stargate/robo). What he does is a blind 10 gate 12 gas build and scouts with the probe that builds the 10 gate. From there, he prefers to do an early 4-gate which he affords by cutting early units and cutting probe production at 17 probes. If he thinks that he is in danger of losing to a superior warpgate rush (superior as in superior execution), he will get a fairly fast second gas, get 1-2 sentries pre-warpgate and hold off the warpgate rush that way. While this is going on, he will also be increasing his probe count and getting a very fast robo for immortal production. Also, he doesn't consistently execute his build order properly or have rigid, pre-planned transitions for his build, so the specifics are kinda wonky.
I know that what he is doing is very abusable since it differs vastly from standard play. So, I looked at what he does and tried to see how it differs from standard play. Results and conclusions from the information are as follows:
1: Doesn't normally get early-game units. I'm thinking I can straight-up win the game or at least force a substantial reaction out of him by pushing with a 3 stalker rush, proxy 2 gate or proxy stargate. If he gets out a sentry in time to block the ramp, he will most likely go robo as a transition. I exploit this by going for a stargate transition and expanding at a standard time. If he goes for his 4-gate, I should be able to run around my side of the map regardless of my opener and make it hard for him to proxy a pylon close to my natural.
2. Reduced probe count when he does a 4-gate rush. His rush should run out of steam faster than a normal one, but the initial burst of units are where most of the trouble is. In case of a mirror build (relatively, I opt for "standard" 4-gate/3-gate rushes), he will snipe my pylons in my main and he will have 3 at his base while I have 2 at mine, so he wins the base trade.
3. Reduced gas count if he goes for fast sentries and robo, but he does get tons of immortals ridiculously fast compared to normal 4-gate defense. This is the one that I don't 100% know the answer for. He will have more probes than me if I go for a 3 or 4 gate rush and a good timing coming up. I don't think I can expand on account of the fact that his immortals will be out so fast, so I *think* I can beat him with stargate tech, but that seems kinda coinflippy. His build is probably just a hard-counter to a 3 or 4 gate rush and I doubt I have a way to scout his build and transition into a counter-build of my own.
4. His build is far less greedy than a standard 4-gate defense or just a standard PvP build in general. Assuming I go into standard play, I don't think I will be able to outright hard-counter him without a bit of coinflippy blind-counters. I should get a lead in economy and gas, but I don't know how much. If he goes for his robo build and I go for standard play, how far ahead will I be?
So, did I get everything right?
edit: figured I'd just edit in the caveat that I know his build is terrible. I mainly posted this to state my thought process on why his build is terrible and how to counter it (both when I'm using a 3-gate and when I'm playing standard), and to have that thought process critiqued.
Anarchonistic: I think what you're saying sounds like a pretty terrible build for anyone who is prepared against it. Doing a 10-gate and scouting on 10 is immensely hurtful to your economy. I don't see how he can transition if you forcefield his push out of your base with early sentries and tech behind it.
On January 17 2014 23:06 JSK wrote: In PvT you are supposed to delay your 3rd until after the 2 medivac timing has been pushed back, right? Just checking.
Yes, unless he rushed for a fast third CC, in which case you should take yours as soon as he does, which will delay his timing by a bit.
Generally, you want to wait for terran to take a third before you do, unless you're absolutely sure that you are ahead (if you just killed a bunch of army with no losses for example). Make sure to scout constantly though, if your third is much later than his, you are in trouble.
Thank you for taking the time to respond! In retrospect I remember this quite clearly now.
Yeah, the only purpose of +1 4-gate is to take a third "safely". You should never be able to damage or deny the third, especially if the third is a gold base (that is, unless the Zerg player is absolutely awful, which happens quite a bit on ladder). On a map like Habitation Station where it's so easy to take the third and wall off, it would be easier to just take it off of like 1 gateway unit lol.[/QUOTE]
This is something I never am sure exactly how to approach. Is it better to take a 3rd in PvZ behind some kind of harass or not? I've had high level Protoss tell me not to because you don't want to force units while trying to take a third. But of course you do want to force units instead of drones so they can't hit as strong of a mid-game timing.
Yeah, the only purpose of +1 4-gate is to take a third "safely". You should never be able to damage or deny the third, especially if the third is a gold base (that is, unless the Zerg player is absolutely awful, which happens quite a bit on ladder). On a map like Habitation Station where it's so easy to take the third and wall off, it would be easier to just take it off of like 1 gateway unit lol.
This is something I never am sure exactly how to approach. Is it better to take a 3rd in PvZ behind some kind of harass or not? I've had high level Protoss tell me not to because you don't want to force units while trying to take a third. But of course you do want to force units instead of drones so they can't hit as strong of a mid-game timing.
It's a question of timings and your game plan. Yes you can do it while harassing, but most protoss use stargate for that, because stargate units harass without forcing units out, and when they do eventually make units (usually hydras) it's easy to have a counter pre-prepared for it. Generally speaking, the principle is correct: if you are securing your third base, you don't want to be forcing him to make units, because then he's going to want to do something with those units, and you've just sunk 400 minerals into a nexus (plus whatever for pylons and other buildings over there), and you're more spread out. Once you've got it secured and have no fear of aggression and are good to go, then you want him making units again.
The question to ask is: when do I want him to make units, and when do I want to let him make drones? Being aggressive when you're weak is an easy way to throw a game. For this reason, I often do a zealot/stalker poke with my MSC while getting my first void ray going and taking my third. Because zerg economy is somewhat exponential in nature, the sooner you slow it down by forcing units, the more impact it will have later on, so my zealot/stalker/msc poke to force lings out (I just walk up, maybe poke at a queen or kill an out of place ovie, then leave) just retreats. Yes you want to delay drones, but when you choose to do that matters a lot. The timing when the MSC first pops is a very strong time for protoss, since zerg has no unit other than queens (which can't really leave their base too well) that can attack it. So it being on the field is a good time to force lings rather than drones, since once you retreat, he can't punish you with the extra units he made. Good zergs at that time will kill rocks or something with them, and scout around with them. But yeah: make sure you can survive an attack by a huge influx of units before you poke and make him produce units, since he'll want to do something with them after they are made.
Ok so I have literally been facing a 2base speed baneling bust every game vs Zerg on Heavy Rain and I have no idea how I am supposed to react to this. If i'm going for a 1gate expand is this somehow flawed against this all-in? Is FFE the only way to not die to something like this? I was normally getting a late scout off but now I feel like I have to scout super early just to get an idea that the zerg is taking gas, but even if I know it's coming I realize I have no idea what the standard or best response to this is. I duno if it's a recent trend or if I just suck because i'm dying to this everygame but man it's really bumming me out. I've asked about 2 times on here already but haven't gotten a response so I would appreciate some help.
On January 18 2014 13:44 ArTiFaKs wrote: Ok so I have literally been facing a 2base speed baneling bust every game vs Zerg on Heavy Rain and I have no idea how I am supposed to react to this. If i'm going for a 1gate expand is this somehow flawed against this all-in? Is FFE the only way to not die to something like this? I was normally getting a late scout off but now I feel like I have to scout super early just to get an idea that the zerg is taking gas, but even if I know it's coming I realize I have no idea what the standard or best response to this is. I duno if it's a recent trend or if I just suck because i'm dying to this everygame but man it's really bumming me out. I've asked about 2 times on here already but haven't gotten a response so I would appreciate some help.
It would be easier to help if you provided a replay. That's not a very common strategy. I for one don't even recall exactly when it hits because it's so unusual, so it's very hard to give any advice. I won't pretend to know exactly what I'm talking about, but what most players will probably say is you need to identify this push (msc should provide you with good vision of lings lurking around your natural), force field, photon overcharge, patch your wall with an extra layer of buildings before lings manage to break through, etc. You should have 1 force field, but probably not 2 yet unless you warp in sentries or get a very early sentry. You could be getting your sentry too late or not getting one at all, you could be using your msc too passively and therefore not seeing lings, you could be delaying warp gate for too long, even your wall could make things harder.
While you won't have a cannon, you will have photon overcharge to buy time... depending on the distance from your nexus to your wall, ofc. You will have a sentry out earlier than if you go FFE too. Having a msc out provides you with more map vision than if you just go nexus first, even if you don't scout early on. Warp gate research will finish sooner too. If you gateways are unpowered, well you should have at least one gateway safely powered in your main anyway. Many protoss have a less safe wall when going 1 gate expand though (2 pylons and 2 gates instead of 1 pylon + forge gate core), so you will most likely have to patch the weak link asap... probably with a gateway + another pylon to power all gates before banes even hit your wall. You're probably not doing one of these things right (or perhaps several). I would only be able to tell if I watched a replay though.
On January 18 2014 13:44 ArTiFaKs wrote: Ok so I have literally been facing a 2base speed baneling bust every game vs Zerg on Heavy Rain and I have no idea how I am supposed to react to this. If i'm going for a 1gate expand is this somehow flawed against this all-in? Is FFE the only way to not die to something like this? I was normally getting a late scout off but now I feel like I have to scout super early just to get an idea that the zerg is taking gas, but even if I know it's coming I realize I have no idea what the standard or best response to this is. I duno if it's a recent trend or if I just suck because i'm dying to this everygame but man it's really bumming me out. I've asked about 2 times on here already but haven't gotten a response so I would appreciate some help.
It would be easier to help if you provided a replay. That's not a very common strategy. I for one don't even recall exactly when it hits because it's so unusual, so it's very hard to give any advice. I won't pretend to know exactly what I'm talking about, but what most players will probably say is you need to identify this push (msc should provide you with good vision of lings lurking around your natural), force field, photon overcharge, patch your wall with an extra layer of buildings before lings manage to break through, etc. You should have 1 force field, but probably not 2 yet unless you warp in sentries or get a very early sentry. You could be getting your sentry too late or not getting one at all, you could be using your msc too passively and therefore not seeing lings, you could be delaying warp gate for too long, even your wall could make things harder.
While you won't have a cannon, you will have photon overcharge to buy time... depending on the distance from your nexus to your wall, ofc. You will have a sentry out earlier than if you go FFE too. Having a msc out provides you with more map vision than if you just go nexus first, even if you don't scout early on. Warp gate research will finish sooner too. If you gateways are unpowered, well you should have at least one gateway safely powered in your main anyway. Many protoss have a less safe wall when going 1 gate expand though (2 pylons and 2 gates instead of 1 pylon + forge gate core), so you will most likely have to patch the weak link asap... probably with a gateway + another pylon to power all gates before banes even hit your wall. You're probably not doing one of these things right (or perhaps several). I would only be able to tell if I watched a replay though.
It's very strange because I've literally never seen it before until Heavy Rain practically every game and now Habitation Station once. I think part of the problem is I wasn't getting a scout out early enough because of the very early pool and lings would shut it down before I could see gas, only 2 base, etc.
That is the build I'm attempting, of course i'm not nearly perfect enough and sometimes I forget a pylon and so I'm supply blocked slightly slowing down my timings, but on Heavy Rain I'm walling with 2 gateways and a Forge as shown in this video of the opener. I'm in Gold league, so I mean, people aren't playing perfect or necessarily playing to the "meta" so I just was wondering what the standard solution. Normally they flood with speed lings, so having 1 sentry or 1 zealot 1 sentry or 1 stalker 1 sentry normally isn't enough to keep them from busting through eventually with 1 FF and no cannon, I was thinking of just getting the Forge and then the 2 gates instead of the 2 gates before the Forge. I duno, I was just wondering if it was like a new trend or something, or if there was a standard reaction when seeing a 2base speedling-bane all-in of some kind. But thanks for the response.
I'm not sure there's much else to say, but regardless... I can't help you any further if you don't post a replay. I personally find reading these "what if/normally/I was thinking" explanations pretty confusing. The fact that you're in gold league makes it even harder to follow your train of thought and you're making assumptions that could very well be hasty. You could save everyone's time by just posting a replay and allowing those who are willing to help to pinpoint what you have to do. It's not only about your build and execution, but also what your opponent did, how fast his timing was, etc.
I just watched a video by Jaypower on Dear's PvZ. During the video he scouts on 9 and then uses a DIFFERENT probe to go nexus first. Is this normal? I thought that if you were going nexus first you wanted to just get it as fast as possible with the forge, i.e. not use a probe scout until after building the forge. Of course this is the greediest version. And I do know that 9 scout and then deciding to nexus first after scouting pool timing is standard too. Just curious in terms of probe usage in the first few minutes of the game cause I think it's been hurting me.
PS - Is it possible to play a purely defensive macro PvZ game, without any type of harass or pressure? By this I mean just defending until of course reaching whatever optimal death ball one wants to build. I really like playing like this as I feel my win rate increases dramatically. Not sure if actually viable against Zerg though, or if I need to adopt a macro style that includes some form of harass throughout the game or at least at certain timings.
Can I keep up with a Zerg without harassing him at all is what I'm saying, provided I scout well enough and react with my own greed?
I know these are all very general questions and I apologize. I came back from a long break and am having trouble with some of the broader theory here
On January 19 2014 08:33 JSK wrote: I just watched a video by Jaypower on Dear's PvZ. During the video he scouts on 9 and then uses a DIFFERENT probe to go nexus first. Is this normal? I thought that if you were going nexus first you wanted to just get it as fast as possible with the forge, i.e. not use a probe scout until after building the forge. Of course this is the greediest version. And I do know that 9 scout and then deciding to nexus first after scouting pool timing is standard too. Just curious in terms of probe usage in the first few minutes of the game cause I think it's been hurting me.
PS - Is it possible to play a purely defensive macro PvZ game, without any type of harass or pressure? By this I mean just defending until of course reaching whatever optimal death ball one wants to build. I really like playing like this as I feel my win rate increases dramatically. Not sure if actually viable against Zerg though, or if I need to adopt a macro style that includes some form of harass throughout the game or at least at certain timings.
Can I keep up with a Zerg without harassing him at all is what I'm saying, provided I scout well enough and react with my own greed?
I know these are all very general questions and I apologize. I came back from a long break and am having trouble with some of the broader theory here
You pylon scout to rule out early pools and adjust your build in case you see an early pool. If you go nexus first, forge, and then scout, you won't be able to adapt your build. If you go forge, scout, and then nexus asap, then you will be doing a less economic build. If you want to play as greedy as possible, you can skip scouting, go nexus first, and start your second pylon before your forge with the extra minerals you get. Anything else is "pseudo-greedy" imho.
Of course, you can play greedier if you scout hatch first. I don't have a perfectly timed response to this, but I'd probably go nexus pylon gateway gas before thinking about adding a forge.
On January 18 2014 13:44 ArTiFaKs wrote: Ok so I have literally been facing a 2base speed baneling bust every game vs Zerg on Heavy Rain and I have no idea how I am supposed to react to this. If i'm going for a 1gate expand is this somehow flawed against this all-in? Is FFE the only way to not die to something like this? I was normally getting a late scout off but now I feel like I have to scout super early just to get an idea that the zerg is taking gas, but even if I know it's coming I realize I have no idea what the standard or best response to this is. I duno if it's a recent trend or if I just suck because i'm dying to this everygame but man it's really bumming me out. I've asked about 2 times on here already but haven't gotten a response so I would appreciate some help.
It would be easier to help if you provided a replay. That's not a very common strategy. I for one don't even recall exactly when it hits because it's so unusual, so it's very hard to give any advice. I won't pretend to know exactly what I'm talking about, but what most players will probably say is you need to identify this push (msc should provide you with good vision of lings lurking around your natural), force field, photon overcharge, patch your wall with an extra layer of buildings before lings manage to break through, etc. You should have 1 force field, but probably not 2 yet unless you warp in sentries or get a very early sentry. You could be getting your sentry too late or not getting one at all, you could be using your msc too passively and therefore not seeing lings, you could be delaying warp gate for too long, even your wall could make things harder.
While you won't have a cannon, you will have photon overcharge to buy time... depending on the distance from your nexus to your wall, ofc. You will have a sentry out earlier than if you go FFE too. Having a msc out provides you with more map vision than if you just go nexus first, even if you don't scout early on. Warp gate research will finish sooner too. If you gateways are unpowered, well you should have at least one gateway safely powered in your main anyway. Many protoss have a less safe wall when going 1 gate expand though (2 pylons and 2 gates instead of 1 pylon + forge gate core), so you will most likely have to patch the weak link asap... probably with a gateway + another pylon to power all gates before banes even hit your wall. You're probably not doing one of these things right (or perhaps several). I would only be able to tell if I watched a replay though.
It's very strange because I've literally never seen it before until Heavy Rain practically every game and now Habitation Station once. I think part of the problem is I wasn't getting a scout out early enough because of the very early pool and lings would shut it down before I could see gas, only 2 base, etc.
That is the build I'm attempting, of course i'm not nearly perfect enough and sometimes I forget a pylon and so I'm supply blocked slightly slowing down my timings, but on Heavy Rain I'm walling with 2 gateways and a Forge as shown in this video of the opener. I'm in Gold league, so I mean, people aren't playing perfect or necessarily playing to the "meta" so I just was wondering what the standard solution. Normally they flood with speed lings, so having 1 sentry or 1 zealot 1 sentry or 1 stalker 1 sentry normally isn't enough to keep them from busting through eventually with 1 FF and no cannon, I was thinking of just getting the Forge and then the 2 gates instead of the 2 gates before the Forge. I duno, I was just wondering if it was like a new trend or something, or if there was a standard reaction when seeing a 2base speedling-bane all-in of some kind. But thanks for the response.
It would be best to see a replay so I can understand exactly what the problem is, but I'll tell you how you should be able to hold this normally:
With a gate expand, you generally scout after the nexus (~3:15 with most builds) (unless you're trying to fake out the zerg player and force them to go pool first...whatever). This initial scout is designed to just check 1) the position of the zerg, 2) if the zerg has a natural, and 3) if the zerg has a third. Literally, all the probe needs to do is tap by the Zerg's natural and see whether or not there's creep, doesn't even need to actually see the hatchery. If your opponent goes for any kind of "standard" build, you should see all three bases down by this time.
If you DONT, then you know you need to be a little more prepared. With gateway expands, you always want to have a full wall and a sentry done by 5:30, which is typically the earliest time zergling speed will be done. Typically, you'll want to have your MSC patrolling the front of your base to spot for lings/potential busts. For busts, just continue to chronoboost out sentries, rewall, and let photon overcharge do its thing, and you should be fine. For anything baneling-related, shift click the MSC to attack the banelings. You shouldn't have to do anything wild or completely different versus these baneling busts.
Again, a replay would be nice .
On January 19 2014 08:33 JSK wrote: I just watched a video by Jaypower on Dear's PvZ. During the video he scouts on 9 and then uses a DIFFERENT probe to go nexus first. Is this normal? I thought that if you were going nexus first you wanted to just get it as fast as possible with the forge, i.e. not use a probe scout until after building the forge. Of course this is the greediest version. And I do know that 9 scout and then deciding to nexus first after scouting pool timing is standard too. Just curious in terms of probe usage in the first few minutes of the game cause I think it's been hurting me.
PS - Is it possible to play a purely defensive macro PvZ game, without any type of harass or pressure? By this I mean just defending until of course reaching whatever optimal death ball one wants to build. I really like playing like this as I feel my win rate increases dramatically. Not sure if actually viable against Zerg though, or if I need to adopt a macro style that includes some form of harass throughout the game or at least at certain timings.
Can I keep up with a Zerg without harassing him at all is what I'm saying, provided I scout well enough and react with my own greed?
I know these are all very general questions and I apologize. I came back from a long break and am having trouble with some of the broader theory here
9 scout is normal to ensure that you don't die to an early pool or some kind of 1-base tech (roach rush or something). Going blind nexus first is just the greedier metagame version that most Protoss players are doing right now in response to greedy triple hatches. For playing FFE on ladder, I think it's best to go 9 scout into nexus first or forge first with double scout on 4-player maps.
It is possible to play a completely defensive style of gameplay (skytoss, voidray/colossus comps), but you have to be really greedy with the 3rd base in order to accomplish this. In general, it's best to mix in a few minor things like oracle harass or a zealot poke to slow down the zerg, but if you feel that turtling works well for you, do it! Always play to your strengths and make intelligent decisions around those ideas.
EPT
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