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On January 29 2014 07:42 typhoonn wrote: how do you guys deal with the meching terran that build lots of hellbats, they absorb the damage of the immortals and the tanks destroy your whole army...
I detailed this a little while ago, I think, but here's the gist of it:
When you first find out your opponent is going mech, you should head into either double robo production or blink stalkers and take a 3rd base asap.
With either blink/immortal or 2 colossus/6ish immortals, pressure your opponent and prevent him from taking an easy 4th.
Use warp prisms
Transition to double stargate void rays -> amove with ~6 void rays
Generally this is a pretty solid game plan. Try playing around with it and seeing if you can get it to better suit your style. I DO NOT recommend teching straight to tempests and turtling. It takes incredible mechanics and decision making to make that style work.
Follow up to this. I can'f figure out the right steps are after scouting the very early gas in PvT. Do I expand, continue with what I was originally planning, try to scout what exact tech they are going? I tend to always guess wrong....
On January 29 2014 07:42 typhoonn wrote: how do you guys deal with the meching terran that build lots of hellbats, they absorb the damage of the immortals and the tanks destroy your whole army...
I detailed this a little while ago, I think, but here's the gist of it:
When you first find out your opponent is going mech, you should head into either double robo production or blink stalkers and take a 3rd base asap.
With either blink/immortal or 2 colossus/6ish immortals, pressure your opponent and prevent him from taking an easy 4th.
Use warp prisms
Transition to double stargate void rays -> amove with ~6 void rays
Generally this is a pretty solid game plan. Try playing around with it and seeing if you can get it to better suit your style. I DO NOT recommend teching straight to tempests and turtling. It takes incredible mechanics and decision making to make that style work.
Follow up to this. I can'f figure out the right steps are after scouting the very early gas in PvT. Do I expand, continue with what I was originally planning, try to scout what exact tech they are going? I tend to always guess wrong....
If you see gas first, you could always make 3 stalkers in a row, leaving your first 2 stalkers block your ramp (very safe vs hellions). After your first stalker start a robo for detection and scouting. Use your msc as soon as it pops out to scout for proxy factories. If you don't probe scout, you can still scout around witih your msc a bit later if you don't see any reapers. If you decide to skip scouting, I suggest sending a probe right after you start your cybercore to see if there's any early ebay block at your natural or proxies at your third, then send your msc in the other direction later. Your probe could spot a 2 rax or a proxy factory at this point - a gas first fatory starts at 3:00 in case you don't know. Or maybe something like proxy reapers, who knows.
Your build order doesn't have to change much at all, you might even end up doing the same build you always do at the start. What you might want to do is get a forge after your robo so you can get a cannon at your main and perhaps one at your natural if you feel like it, but gas first widow mine drops hit VERY early (like 6:10 or a bit later depending on how tight their play is), so if that's what your opponent is doing you'll probably have to rely on photon overcharge and stalkers/observers anyway. But you don't absolutely need to get a forge this early though - it's really a matter or preference. But getting cannons is a good idea, whether it's at 6-7min or later.
Your first observer should scout your opponent's base if there's no immediate sign of aggression. Otherwise, send one to scout him as soon as possible. Then based on scouting information, decide what you want to do. I can't say anything about Chris suggested, I've never seen that and I hate blink stalkers against mech lol, but I don't have a specific build either. The most important thing is getting immortals though, so going double robo is great and I always aim for a much faster third than usual. I'm extremely passive though and I guess moving out to prevent an easy 4th is a smart plan, as long as you have enough stuff to move around and threaten the terran while not plunging into a well-positioned siege tank army. I don't think I ever get enough stuff to do that though, probably because I'm crazy greedy against mech and tech to tempest and everything at once lol.
On January 28 2014 04:41 Tiaraju9 wrote: Recently I decided to go heavy with the blinkstalkers in every matchup. My purpose is improve micro, multitask and army control. Plus, I like Dear.
That being said, I was thinking about the blink builds in PvT. Why people go for 1 base blink?
1 - 2 base blink have a good timing window to hit. 2 - 2 base have less chances to get scouted. 3 - 2 base can transition out.
1 base build is faster, and you can transition out if you do enough damage, which is more likely because it's faster. That being said, the fact that it's so easily scouted because every Terran reaper expands means that it's better to go 2 base blink. If the meta-game changed and Terrans stopped auto-reaper expanding, expect more 1 base blink builds.
I go for 2 base blink / immortal contain while mass expanding up to sky toss + templar.
In higher leagues, this shouldn't be viable. The difficulty with trying to contain a Terran is that you can really only do it until medivacs and stim are done; reason being that the Terran player can definitely trade efficiently at this point and also because the Terran can split up his army and do drops while you cannot. This timing window is usually between 8:30 (the time the blink stalker pressure hits) to ~10:30. After that, Terran just gains map control.
On January 29 2014 21:19 Harreh wrote: Do archons not work well vs hellbats though? Bonus damage vs biological. They're pretty fat so it negates the tank's aoe.
They work splendidly. The only problem is that archons just can't kill a significant number of hellbats fast enough to allow your army to get on top of the tanks. Gas is also pretty scarce to come by, especially when you're going immortals, upgrades, and/or blink stalkers in the process, making it really hard to get more than 3-4 archons for an engagement.
On January 29 2014 23:21 DinoMight wrote: Hey guys,
Has anyone seen this 2 base marine/tank/banshee w/ SCVs push that some Terrans have been doing?
What's the best way to stop this? I died to this like 3 times last night.
This is a pretty old build. To be honest, this shouldn't be much of a problem to hold in HotS with the use of nexus cannon. Simply defend the banshee harass while getting out immortals/splash and don't be greedy with cutting units. All you need is a decent engagement on top of the marines to swing the engagement far in your favor. If you have a fairly mobile army, I suggest also riding out to meet the army, forcing a siege up, then backing off; this buys you a little chunk of time as well as allowing you to pick off units for free.
On January 30 2014 00:15 catabowl wrote: Curious to know why more Warp Prisms are not made to ferry HT Storm Drops on army/prevent snipe.
Could work against Zerg too if they have mutas out of place. Storm the Drone line.
To be truthful, it's just really APM-intensive and Protoss is already pretty tight on hotkeys already (usually I need 4-5 hotkeys to control my maxed out army).
On January 29 2014 07:42 typhoonn wrote: how do you guys deal with the meching terran that build lots of hellbats, they absorb the damage of the immortals and the tanks destroy your whole army...
I detailed this a little while ago, I think, but here's the gist of it:
When you first find out your opponent is going mech, you should head into either double robo production or blink stalkers and take a 3rd base asap.
With either blink/immortal or 2 colossus/6ish immortals, pressure your opponent and prevent him from taking an easy 4th.
Use warp prisms
Transition to double stargate void rays -> amove with ~6 void rays
Generally this is a pretty solid game plan. Try playing around with it and seeing if you can get it to better suit your style. I DO NOT recommend teching straight to tempests and turtling. It takes incredible mechanics and decision making to make that style work.
Follow up to this. I can'f figure out the right steps are after scouting the very early gas in PvT. Do I expand, continue with what I was originally planning, try to scout what exact tech they are going? I tend to always guess wrong....
This is an independent problem from battling mech and has more to do with your opening. Do what vhapter detailed above: continue with your normal 1-gate FE, but be extra cautious with where you're putting your units and make sure you have detection out by 6:30ish.
If I FE and my opponent opens 3 Gate Stargate for oracle and uses it for map control while expanding himself what do you suggest? Typically I go into Robo unless I can scout the stargate early after I expand.
Key questions:
- Should I use 3 stalkers per mineral line or 2? It just seems like I lose too much with 2. - I tend to try and go Robo/Archon/Zealot for the midgame, and for example the last guy I played expanded into Collosi and took a safe 3rd positioning his army in the mineral line and I didn't feel like I could take the fight. - I should go double forge with this right? - End game is typically Archon/Immortal/Tempest, is there such thing as getting too many tempest or archons? - Should I take gas at natural right away or wait till its nearly saturated on minerals?
1) 3 is on the safe side. Once you have your natural estabilished you can also just make a cannon per mineral line 2) If the colossus player takes a third before the IAC player you should be able to bust him. If you don't have enough stuff to it it's because you lost too much to the oracle and already lost the game. 3) Nop single forge is the norm. 4) None knows the perfect army composition for lategame pvp yet. 5) Wait until it's saturated. You need the minerals for gas/units while you defend his 3gate/oracle (assuming you do it, which is a stretch in the first place).
is there a quick way to end the game vs 2 base swarmhost if you don't see the nydus/creep laydown, or are you just forced into a longer game with many colossus/end game tech.
On January 30 2014 15:10 eNtitY~ wrote: If I FE and my opponent opens 3 Gate Stargate for oracle and uses it for map control while expanding himself what do you suggest? Typically I go into Robo unless I can scout the stargate early after I expand.
Key questions:
- Should I use 3 stalkers per mineral line or 2? It just seems like I lose too much with 2. - I tend to try and go Robo/Archon/Zealot for the midgame, and for example the last guy I played expanded into Collosi and took a safe 3rd positioning his army in the mineral line and I didn't feel like I could take the fight. - I should go double forge with this right? - End game is typically Archon/Immortal/Tempest, is there such thing as getting too many tempest or archons? - Should I take gas at natural right away or wait till its nearly saturated on minerals?
What I've been doing recently is opening 1-gate FE into stargate instead of robo. You have a HUGE weakness to twilight-based play, but it works very well to counter the current 3-gate/oracle meta going on right now. Your hallucination scout should arrive a little before the first oracle hits, giving you just enough time to get out a phoenix .
On January 30 2014 17:22 Teoita wrote: 1) 3 is on the safe side. Once you have your natural estabilished you can also just make a cannon per mineral line 2) If the colossus player takes a third before the IAC player you should be able to bust him. If you don't have enough stuff to it it's because you lost too much to the oracle and already lost the game. 3) Nop single forge is the norm. 4) None knows the perfect army composition for lategame pvp yet. 5) Wait until it's saturated. You need the minerals for gas/units while you defend his 3gate/oracle (assuming you do it, which is a stretch in the first place).
Do you get Blink before you throw the stalkers away? It seems like 6 Stalkers are pretty useless in a maxed out army so I'd want to throw them away right?
How should I approach midgame PvP when going IAC and my opponent is going chargelot archon without immortals? What are some good things to attempt and how should I defend my third against this composition, since my zealots will die faster to my opponent's higher archon count?
* I'm not talking about a chargelot archon all in, this is about both players getting upgrades, adding extra gates, and then taking a third.
On January 30 2014 17:22 Teoita wrote: 1) 3 is on the safe side. Once you have your natural estabilished you can also just make a cannon per mineral line 2) If the colossus player takes a third before the IAC player you should be able to bust him. If you don't have enough stuff to it it's because you lost too much to the oracle and already lost the game. 3) Nop single forge is the norm. 4) None knows the perfect army composition for lategame pvp yet. 5) Wait until it's saturated. You need the minerals for gas/units while you defend his 3gate/oracle (assuming you do it, which is a stretch in the first place).
Do you get Blink before you throw the stalkers away? It seems like 6 Stalkers are pretty useless in a maxed out army so I'd want to throw them away right?
If you go blink you need to get like 10 stalkers or so and do some kind of timing or at least harassment. Eventually yes, you want to throw them away. Just getting blink for the 8 or so defensive stalkers you are going to make and then playing passively is a pretty huge (and common) mistake.
Not sure if this belongs in the Protoss thread, or the simple questions thread, but I'll ask it here. I'm currently a Diamond Protoss starting to feel the pains of poor mechanics, and I'm not really sure how exactly to manage this. My biggest problem is the stupid All-Army hotkey. When I'm playing a game and feel like I'm ahead, I rarely ever use it, and feel like my hotkey usage is actually pretty good. Once I get behind, I just start using it like crazy, which drives me farther and farther behind (especially in PvT, it pulls all my defensive observers in and I stop seeing drops coming). I tried un-hotkeying it, but I ended up just clicking on it all the time. Any tips for me to stop using this silly, silly button?
Also, are DT expands still viable in PvP? I feel like almost everyone opens stargate, so I've been trying to go 1gate>council>msc>stalker>2nd gate>DT Shrine>Sentry, then double stalker production up to 5. Is that the correct order if I scout early double gas, no proxies? My immediate follow up is to warp in a robo, then a DT, then a nexus. Against serious builds, will this still be safe assuming I continue to scout well, or is there a more optimized way to do this expand?
EDIT: One more thing, I get so flustered dealing with reapers! Do I just kind of expect the reaper to be poking in and around for the first few minutes of the game, being kind of unkillable?
On January 31 2014 03:05 BestWaffelz wrote: Not sure if this belongs in the Protoss thread, or the simple questions thread, but I'll ask it here. I'm currently a Diamond Protoss starting to feel the pains of poor mechanics, and I'm not really sure how exactly to manage this. My biggest problem is the stupid All-Army hotkey. When I'm playing a game and feel like I'm ahead, I rarely ever use it, and feel like my hotkey usage is actually pretty good. Once I get behind, I just start using it like crazy, which drives me farther and farther behind (especially in PvT, it pulls all my defensive observers in and I stop seeing drops coming). I tried un-hotkeying it, but I ended up just clicking on it all the time. Any tips for me to stop using this silly, silly button?
Also, are DT expands still viable in PvP? I feel like almost everyone opens stargate, so I've been trying to go 1gate>council>msc>stalker>2nd gate>DT Shrine>Sentry, then double stalker production up to 5. Is that the correct order if I scout early double gas, no proxies? My immediate follow up is to warp in a robo, then a DT, then a nexus. Against serious builds, will this still be safe assuming I continue to scout well, or is there a more optimized way to do this expand?
EDIT: One more thing, I get so flustered dealing with reapers! Do I just kind of expect the reaper to be poking in and around for the first few minutes of the game, being kind of unkillable?
1. Keep it un-hotkeyed and force yourself to not touch it. It's a terrible button and its only use is to make it easier for people to play badly. Like all bad habits, it'll take a little while to break, but you just have to catch yourself every time you're about to use it and stop.
3. Just do a MSC expand and make sure you get the MSC out quickly. The MSC should be able to push away the reaper until your first stalker gets out. In general, just use good positioning at the top of ramps and spreading your stalkers out and you should be able to deny the reaper(s) from getting any damage done. Watch some pro games and observe how they deal with it .
I'm having trouble in PvP vs 3 Gate/SG (either Oracle or VR). I usually 2Gate FE and think I am probably playing too greedy. Basically, I put down 2 Gates, a Nexus, a Robo and look to go for Chargelot/Immortal/Archon in the midgame.
I've been having trouble holding against 3 Gate/SG and either losing full stop or losing my natural. The few games I have won against this build and its variations, I think it is more because of my opponent's errors than my play.
You just need to kind of get a read by being active with your probe (and this is extremely hard as is), make units non stop and micro extremely well. In general it's a pretty bad spot to be in so you will come out behind way more often than ahead.
Thanks Teo. I'll keep working at it. I may need to delay my expo a little (I think I am being a little greedy) and get down more gates asap as soon as my Nexus is down (yesterday, I may have held if I had 4 gates up rather than 2 - I certainly could afford it when he it; he did hit a little late, though). And yeah, you are right, I need to be more active with my early units.
It's really not about the nexus timing, and i dont think you can get 2 extra gates up quickly enough; if you invest in a robo and nexus vs stargate timings you are in deep shit anyway. Just focus on hitting your warp in cycles perfectly and cut probes accordingly (at around 28/30 vs one base all-ins i think).
Also depending on the build you and/or your opponent's, it's really hard if not impossible to be active with your early units. I really like 3stalker rushes for that very reason, but it's hard to fast expand off them.
What i must do if terran make mines(10+)-thor-viking.What can kill mines?Storms and revelation?Mass tempests?But with more vikings and bad cliff .He can kill me.Expand more ad def?
Range them down with either storm or colossi and a well positioned obs i guess. That composition isn't really viable at the highest level because toss has so much ranged aoe that mines are not very good. Thors are easily dealt with if you make immortals, so maybe go templar/immortal/zealot and storm the mines before engaging. They can actually be spotted even without an obs because they leave a visible sign on the ground.
EPT
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