EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 90
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
http://drop.sc/352110 I kind of feel leaving my army to deal with his 5th on the opposite side means guaranteeing I lose my 5th. Just DT warpins alone stopped me taking the risky 6th and harassing his base with lings wouldn't have cut it. | ||
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Natureboy
Sweden85 Posts
On July 29 2013 16:40 blade55555 wrote: Look at the saturation at your bases, you should only have 16 drones on minerals 3 per gas and at most have 4 saturated bases (this is about 85 drones). If you make 156 drones uh are you saturating like 7 bases? Ooooh, yeah! I totally forgot that you can easily see the amount of drones you have on each of your hatches since HotS release! Definitely gonna have to start utalizing that. It's going to make a huge difference for me. | ||
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potsos
Greece18 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On July 29 2013 20:48 DarKcS wrote: How to deal with Skytoss behind mass cannon on maps where you can't engage the 3rd? http://drop.sc/352110 I kind of feel leaving my army to deal with his 5th on the opposite side means guaranteeing I lose my 5th. Just DT warpins alone stopped me taking the risky 6th and harassing his base with lings wouldn't have cut it. I've lost to this bullshit so much, so I'd really like an answer to this as well. The only thing thats really worked for me vs that much air is a surprise muta transition, and if I can kill all the colossus then a hydra remax can sometimes finish off the voidrays. But thats happened once, out of 5-6 times I've tried it. | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
On July 29 2013 21:23 potsos wrote: hello guys i have a question about zvt.when i try go ling-bane->muta->ultra-infe i lose cause i canot handle the pressure of the terran and canot even harash they have already turrents , they donot drop and push face to face with marines marauders mines and medivacs and canot handle it and i lose . what should i do to face it ? i heard about a bane-raoch push should i play this build from now on ? and if the push doesnot make dmg i transition to mutas and then hive or straight hive? First off you need to know whether this is coming or not, so make sure to send in an overlord scout at certain times, probably around 7 minutes. If this is an actual early push then they wont have a 3rd cc, if they do then they are going into a macro mode and probably wont come at your for a few more minutes. But even if they do you need NEED to have spotters on the map so that as soon as they leave their base you can say "he is coming" and build the appropriate army. Another thing is that you should have at least some lings when he starts to push so that you can morph these into banelings that will be ready when he arrives while at the same time your army will spawn. Second off is the engagement, i keep all my stuff in different hotkeys, i know idra puts all his ground army banelings included in a single hotkey but he also splits up his banelings on their own hotkey. Personally i just keep them all seperate but this is a must! absolute must or else the banes will do nothing. When it comes to the engagement of MMMW you need to be very very careful, do not just a-moveas you will die lol. But several things can happen during this. If the terran doesn't have the speed burrow upgrade, even if he does but it is more dangerous, and moves out on creep without burrowing any mines. You can usually tell since most terrans wil lhave them all in the front of his army. then right click behind the terran army and do a run by type of surround. where as soon as enough lings get behind you a-move and get a full surround. If you do this correctly you will get the surround before the mines burrow then they will go off and deal just as much damage to the terran as they do you. Banelings obviously will come in second, but you really need to be wary of the mine placements and try to keep your banes away or send 3 over the top and self detonate them to take them out. now if the terran does get the mines down there are a few things you can do to take care of this. First thing is to send a pack of lings appropriate to the terran's force, if it is like 12 marines and there are 2-3 mines you want to go off send like 6 lings, if it is a full complete terran with like 10 mines you will want to send like 10-16 lings. All these are for are to detonate the mines whether by standing on them or if the terran army is standing on/right next to them attack into them so the splash hits them. You want to do this till all the ones in the front line have gone off, its very very difficult to get the back ones. If you have mutas at this point, flying behind the terran army with 10 of them and an overseer is good to pick them off. But once you have the mines set off you need to make sure your army is split up so that any hidden mines dont ruin your day, this is splitting up both zerglings and banelings and then you can either do what i said earlier to get a surround with the lings so that your banelings can hit the marines like so But this is why it is a requirement to split up banes to a new hotkey, you can not a-move banes if you do the terran will stim marines and leave marauders there, but if you right click behind the marines and simply chase them down until no marauders are really around and they are splitting that is when you want to a-move so your pack of banelings will start to split up to chase each group of marines. All the while during this your mutas should be killing shit  everyone has their preference on what to attack with mutas, but personally the best thing to kill is the medivacs, always target the medivacs because they make the terran army soooo much stronger.Also sorry for the long response but you really didn't give any specific timings or anything from the terran so i did general stuff to take care of your general question | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Sure..I've seen pros on stream do exactly what I just said I do by taking a late 3rd, but I hope it's not a really bad choice. I don't see any red flags here. My personal thought on this revolves around inject timings. A standard 15 Pool > 16 Hatch has Queen injects in the time frame of 4:10 > 4:55 > 5:40 > 6:25 > 7:10. I bring this up because if the Protoss chooses early aggression its nice to have larvae quicker which means the 3rd hatch, at least somewhat soon is beneficial. So for me, I don't like to start my 3rd Hatchery any later than 5:30 seconds which lines up perfectly with the Queens 5th inject cycle at around 7:10. Why the 7:10 inject mark? Well, it gives you 12-13 larvae in the 8:40s which means units are hatched by 9:00 - 9:07. This works nice vs all variations of 1gas > Immortal/Zealot/Prism pushes in the 9:00 - 9:10 range and even nicer vs the later 9:45 - 10:15 Polt style pushes. I thought the standard against gateway opening was gasless into speed roaches? Another option is Ling/Bling into quicker Hive tech. This also frees more gas up for better upgrades and other harassing tools like +2 Bling drops on the mineral line > watch toss Rage quit. | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
On July 29 2013 20:48 DarKcS wrote: How to deal with Skytoss behind mass cannon on maps where you can't engage the 3rd? http://drop.sc/352110 I kind of feel leaving my army to deal with his 5th on the opposite side means guaranteeing I lose my 5th. Just DT warpins alone stopped me taking the risky 6th and harassing his base with lings wouldn't have cut it. You're probably not going to like my response. But i have a friend who loved to do this style and i tried everything i could from early hydra's to get up to 80-90 drones and just THROW waves of maxed out hydra/ling at him, from every type of spire unit at him and none of these ways worked. However, when we watched the replays i found 1 thing with my friend's build and watching the replay you showed as well. They are very very susceptible to drops, you can have the drops by 13 minutes easily and this is even after spotting what he is doing. and by 13 minutes the protoss has 7 voids, 1 sentry, 1 zealot, 1 stalker. thats it. if you drop into his main there is nothing he can do to kill your 17 hydras, 6 roaches and 27 lings, even if you buy the upgrade you can have those units since you have 500/500 in the bank so i'll take the money from there lol. If you look at his base/vision in your replay he has nothing on the bottom of the map, you can easily drop the bottom left side of his base where he only has 1 pylon, best engagement possible for you since he doesn't even have a mother ship core. ANYWAYS, this type of move is actually really easy to stop IF IT GETS SPOTTED, which is why i don't like it. the much better way of killing this is actually swarm hosts, queens, and hydras. since he is going air you want about 10-16 swarm hosts as this will give you the count of locusts to bust through buildings and tank cannon shots and everything like that so you don't have to worry about the ground. Especially since you will need all your attention on fighting the air, Void rays are terrible vs queens, absolutely horrible because queens are not armored. They are just biological and psionic and they have 175 hp. where hydra's hp is only 80. Queens even start off with 1 armor so they arnt squishy either which means the void rays can't do their charge on the queens and as long as you keep up transfuses your army will never die to voids. i would advise getting 10-12 queens for this push so you will have enough transfuses though. If the game goes longer and he keeps up the void ray building then you want to get infestors to fungal, the extra dps is all it takes. One thing about this is mobility, on the smaller maps like akilon and neo planet its not a big issue as long as you have creep which you should. The trick is to get overlord speed like you did and simply make a creep highway with the overlords and plant creep tumors along the way, you'll probably creep up the entire map this way as a protoss doing this strat will be trapped in their bases. On the bigger maps like whirl wind i would still advise doing this overlord creep highway push even if it takes longer but plant down nydus networks here and there like if you were cross spawns on ww i would put one in the middle and one just outside of their third AFTER my queen/sh push reached there while putting the rest of them around my other bases. This way you don't run the risk of losing it to random voids and if he drops or anything you can instantly go back and defend anything. Just need to be quick about it else you'll lose the network and have to come from the nearest base. This also allows you to bounce around to his different expansions if he tries to take hidden bases as he wont be able to defend them at all. one thing to watch out for is if they do a collosus switch like the protoss in your replay is you need to tech to hive immediately and get out vipers and start abducting them as much as possible. If they get up to like 8+ collosus they can start pushing you back and they have a timing to kill you. so you need to keep abducting to keep that number low and a cool trick is you don't need to consume for abduct, its only about 10-20 seconds away from being ready when they spawn so i will generally fly them out to the front lines and within a few seconds they wil lhave the first abducts. Then i pull them back to consume. IF you ever kill all the void rays and they go double robo though which is a high probability you should throw down a spire and go corruptors to clean up the collosus, Personally i prefer getting like 3-4 ultra's out asit will force the protoss to run away even if they bust through the locust wave until they get out immortals, which if they are building immortals then it isn't collosus so keep abducting The last thing to say about this style is you don't need a lot of drones with this style and you need every supply possible as swarm hosts are 3 supply. anyways i need to run so i hope this helps. gl hf :D | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On July 29 2013 23:27 UltiBahamut wrote: + Show Spoiler + You're probably not going to like my response. But i have a friend who loved to do this style and i tried everything i could from early hydra's to get up to 80-90 drones and just THROW waves of maxed out hydra/ling at him, from every type of spire unit at him and none of these ways worked. However, when we watched the replays i found 1 thing with my friend's build and watching the replay you showed as well. They are very very susceptible to drops, you can have the drops by 13 minutes easily and this is even after spotting what he is doing. and by 13 minutes the protoss has 7 voids, 1 sentry, 1 zealot, 1 stalker. thats it. if you drop into his main there is nothing he can do to kill your 17 hydras, 6 roaches and 27 lings, even if you buy the upgrade you can have those units since you have 500/500 in the bank so i'll take the money from there lol. If you look at his base/vision in your replay he has nothing on the bottom of the map, you can easily drop the bottom left side of his base where he only has 1 pylon, best engagement possible for you since he doesn't even have a mother ship core. ANYWAYS, this type of move is actually really easy to stop IF IT GETS SPOTTED, which is why i don't like it. the much better way of killing this is actually swarm hosts, queens, and hydras. since he is going air you want about 10-16 swarm hosts as this will give you the count of locusts to bust through buildings and tank cannon shots and everything like that so you don't have to worry about the ground. Especially since you will need all your attention on fighting the air, Void rays are terrible vs queens, absolutely horrible because queens are not armored. They are just biological and psionic and they have 175 hp. where hydra's hp is only 80. Queens even start off with 1 armor so they arnt squishy either which means the void rays can't do their charge on the queens and as long as you keep up transfuses your army will never die to voids. i would advise getting 10-12 queens for this push so you will have enough transfuses though. If the game goes longer and he keeps up the void ray building then you want to get infestors to fungal, the extra dps is all it takes. One thing about this is mobility, on the smaller maps like akilon and neo planet its not a big issue as long as you have creep which you should. The trick is to get overlord speed like you did and simply make a creep highway with the overlords and plant creep tumors along the way, you'll probably creep up the entire map this way as a protoss doing this strat will be trapped in their bases. On the bigger maps like whirl wind i would still advise doing this overlord creep highway push even if it takes longer but plant down nydus networks here and there like if you were cross spawns on ww i would put one in the middle and one just outside of their third AFTER my queen/sh push reached there while putting the rest of them around my other bases. This way you don't run the risk of losing it to random voids and if he drops or anything you can instantly go back and defend anything. Just need to be quick about it else you'll lose the network and have to come from the nearest base. This also allows you to bounce around to his different expansions if he tries to take hidden bases as he wont be able to defend them at all. one thing to watch out for is if they do a collosus switch like the protoss in your replay is you need to tech to hive immediately and get out vipers and start abducting them as much as possible. If they get up to like 8+ collosus they can start pushing you back and they have a timing to kill you. so you need to keep abducting to keep that number low and a cool trick is you don't need to consume for abduct, its only about 10-20 seconds away from being ready when they spawn so i will generally fly them out to the front lines and within a few seconds they wil lhave the first abducts. Then i pull them back to consume. IF you ever kill all the void rays and they go double robo though which is a high probability you should throw down a spire and go corruptors to clean up the collosus, Personally i prefer getting like 3-4 ultra's out asit will force the protoss to run away even if they bust through the locust wave until they get out immortals, which if they are building immortals then it isn't collosus so keep abducting The last thing to say about this style is you don't need a lot of drones with this style and you need every supply possible as swarm hosts are 3 supply. anyways i need to run so i hope this helps. gl hf :D You are amazing, I hope this works :D | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
One of the biggest issues i have with pro zergs is they don't do this and this is why you always see protoss reach their swarm hosts while they are burrowed. If you burrow, spawn unburrow and move you can watch the battle with the locusts and if it looks like you are about to lose it your swarm hosts are already retreating to a safe distance to spawn another wave. This is why i advise doing the creep highway always because if you don't your queens will fall behind and get sniped, or if you just do the nydus push then you have to run all the way back to your base and then push out to meet the pushing protoss. This will also help with reinforcing swarm host not getting randomly burrowed around the map and let them catch up. uhh. one cute thing you can do is actually research burrow to burrow queens/hydras for each locust wave so they arn't fighting against the locust wave. and just two more things is if he goes for that double robo or goes for collosus anyways then get a lot more swarm hosts and try to spread them out, with the nydus approach you can put 8 swarm hosts in them to pop out kill a nydus in 1 wave if you're close enough and have upgrades then run away. which brings me to the last point. UPGRADES ARE A MUST. i didn't mention this but for queen/hydra to be able to kill upgraded air units you also need to have upgrades should be self explanatory, but there you go. EDIT: one more thing ,lol. a very helpful thing is to have overlords dropping creep on his potential bases and on bigger maps like whirlwind have speedy overlords on patrol for the hidden bases. I say use overlords instead of a ling because supply is important. and even on smaller maps like akilon you shouldn't let anything reach your side of the base without you seeing it due to swarm hosts in the middle plus tower control and then overlords along the outside. Seeing warp prisms before they hit your base is the best possible way to defend them as well as getting up static d just at your bases, preferably spores along cliff edges to kill the prism if the protoss doesn't watch it. which many dont lol | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 29 2013 18:16 DarKcS wrote: Another adjustment I seem to be making I'm not sure if it's hurting my play, when I see a gateway opening I take gas immediately and don't take my 3rd until I have the minerals for it which can be almost 2 minutes later with queen+drone production constantly. Should I just take the 3rd right away? Sure..I've seen pros on stream do exactly what I just said I do by taking a late 3rd, but I hope it's not a really bad choice. You should get gas first and be able to get your 3rd down at 5:30-5:45. This is fine and won't be a problem. You could go 3 hatch before pool versus gate expand if you want, that's up to the player though of course. On July 29 2013 22:19 bo1b wrote: I've lost to this bullshit so much, so I'd really like an answer to this as well. The only thing thats really worked for me vs that much air is a surprise muta transition, and if I can kill all the colossus then a hydra remax can sometimes finish off the voidrays. But thats happened once, out of 5-6 times I've tried it. I actually wrote a guide on late game zvp that is still good today (I still play the same way): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408919 | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On July 30 2013 07:09 KingofGods wrote: Silly question (new zerg player but not new to starcraft) - do you guys ever forget if you built an overlord or not? Sometimes I think I did and then when I see a drone pop out of the egg I just face palm myself. Thats one thing I like about playing terran :p I can just go back to my base and see if a depot is in fact being built. | ||
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
On July 22 2013 23:52 DilemaH wrote: Very annoying play style to face, I will admit. If they're massing marauders at that point, stay with mass ling; ultras are near-worthless and broods are extremely immobile. If he's investing everything into countering, retreat and pull some units off to kill his infrastructure and economy. You will force him to retreat as he can't engage you, but he should be retreating to a weak economy and less infrastructure. Reinforcements will kill your squadron of counterattackers, but if you have an ultra or two there he will lose a lot. For a planetary, counter that will ultras, and keep some banes for when he repairs. Hell, go straight for scvs. DON'T LOSE YOUR MUTAS at ANY point in the game until absolute end game. They help clean up drops and small counters so well If that doesn't work, spine the sh*t out of one or two expos, get some infestors and/or vipers/SHs there to reinforce defense and he can't kill your countering army (which if you're doing this should be everything), and he will/should lose all his economy while you have one base left running. If he floats, well, you got mutas. Very tedious to play against. Spreading creep is very very useful for this. Thank you very much by the way. During the last week, ZvT became probably my best Matchup (Somewhere High Diamond). I barely ever lose anymore. :o Your comment helped a lot in terms of what to focus on and I probably just overreacted before and evaluated the situation wrong. It's still annoying to play against and sometimes it takes quite some time to finish the terrans off, but I don't really care :-P The only real problem I'm facing right now in the matchup is... well... was probably asked before, because I think that's a known "problem": Hellbat/Marauder (+Sometimes Siege Tanks :o ). When should I build my Roach Warren to hold off such a push? Can't be that hard to defend, but I seem to completely miss the timings (Also the timing for scouting it by sending in the Overlord...). The push always seems really weak, but it hits me at a time where I just... don't have anything xD | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
/facepalm When going ling/bane/muta do you upgrade mutas? | ||
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seupac
Canada148 Posts
i saw massan stream the other night and he maxes roach hydra viper like 30 seconds after my regular 1/1 roach hydra corruptor max :p is there a guide on this playstyle? is it becoming more standard in the current meta? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 30 2013 10:04 KingofGods wrote: Face palm moment #2 : after about 40 games played I just realized you can see the timer on queen injects on hatchery. /facepalm When going ling/bane/muta do you upgrade mutas? Yes you should always be upgrading mutalisks. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
On July 30 2013 15:25 seupac wrote: My best matchup by far right now is ZvP, but I'm still running really aggressive roach hydra corruptor which seems to be getting phased out in favor of fast hive roach hydra viper i saw massan stream the other night and he maxes roach hydra viper like 30 seconds after my regular 1/1 roach hydra corruptor max :p is there a guide on this playstyle? is it becoming more standard in the current meta? Look at "What is the 9min hive build hyun uses?" in the OP. It's basically a timing attack and often an auto win against fast collossus, still good vs voids imo. | ||
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JesseBunny
Finland18 Posts
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