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On June 24 2013 23:41 Theilo wrote:Hey! I'm mid-high master Zerg on Europe and I'm wondering: ZvZ a) If there is a efficient way to hold off roach/ling/bane allin when u started with +1 carapace and only stick on ling(bane). What's the best way to deal with it? Cancel third, make some spines and tech lair while you hold off the allin ? ZvT b) Wehn you play Muta-Ling/Bane, do you maxout first and go hive afterwards or do you basically rush to it? I don't have really good timings assuming it's a standard macro game Thanks for the help ! 
a) ZvZ - Yeah cancel the 3rd, make spines and just connect your banes with his to defend your spines then just have Spine+Ling buffer vs Roach and you should be fine. Key is to scout it so you can actually defend.
b) Muta-Ling/Bane I find is one of those comps that require constant army production. Thanks to Widow Mines, you're not going to be ultra efficient in trades. Best to just keep massing, get a 3rd, 4th, and then slowly tech to ultras. I generally try to use my army mobility to bounce between the T natural and 3rd or just delay his 3rd for as long as possible.
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someone tell me how to beat protoss.
i hate this fucking game so much right now.
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On June 25 2013 02:33 joon wrote:
someone tell me how to beat protoss.
i hate this fucking game so much right now.
Check the post on the OP of this thread. On another point, before you hit the ladder again. Hug a puppy and eat an ice cream cone. If you are feeling really frustrated or tilted, stop playing for a while to cool off.
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Is there a good guide somewhere on opening 15 hatch and holding a cannon rush? I once heard a caster say that if you get a drone in the pylon wall off behind your natural mineral line, it's somehow game over, but I don't know how that's supposed to go.
If you have to cancel your natural hatchery, how far behind are you?
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On June 25 2013 02:48 schwza wrote:
Is there a good guide somewhere on opening 15 hatch and holding a cannon rush? I once heard a caster say that if you get a drone in the pylon wall off behind your natural mineral line, it's somehow game over, but I don't know how that's supposed to go.
If you have to cancel your natural hatchery, how far behind are you?
I always send my first overlord to my natural and keep it there until the hatchery completes for the added vision. Just check your minimap constantly. If you see a probe hangin out, pull 2-3 drones to kill it off. Sometimes I even just send 1 drone on an attack command towards the scouting probe to make sure he doesn't drop a pylon. Once you see the pylon dropped, I pull 4 drones immediately to kill it off ASAP. If the pylon manages to finish, I continue attacking it rather than switching to the cannon. If the cannon finishes before the pylon goes down, run your drones away and get 6-8 lings to finish off the pylon quickly. Depending on where the cannon is in relation to the pylon, you can sometimes snipe the pylon with your queen as well.
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My issue at the moment is mass air protoss, plenty voids to begin with (they seem to cannon and turtle up in their base, so i cant get near them i send in a timing of 1/1 hydras and lings but they get taken apart. then the carriers start to show up as i get to 4 base, and then the tempest. in the end the toss player just has this army which completely decimated 2 hydra 2/2 armies, then an infester hydra army then i just when wtf and made some corruptors . . .
so if you see this what should you be going for? My only other play would have been not to tech into hydras but go mass mass corruptor . . .but this strat i only see now and again and never been able to beat it
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On June 25 2013 02:39 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 02:33 joon wrote:
someone tell me how to beat protoss.
i hate this fucking game so much right now. Check the post on the OP of this thread. On another point, before you hit the ladder again. Hug a puppy and eat an ice cream cone. If you are feeling really frustrated or tilted, stop playing for a while to cool off.
there is nothing helpful in the OP for me. when i click earlygame/midgame/lategame etc it just brings me back to op
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On June 25 2013 04:54 joon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 02:39 MstrJinbo wrote:On June 25 2013 02:33 joon wrote:
someone tell me how to beat protoss.
i hate this fucking game so much right now. Check the post on the OP of this thread. On another point, before you hit the ladder again. Hug a puppy and eat an ice cream cone. If you are feeling really frustrated or tilted, stop playing for a while to cool off. there is nothing helpful in the OP for me. when i click earlygame/midgame/lategame etc it just brings me back to op
You can still scroll down the page to each section. Looks like a lot of the stuff there will direct you to blades guide so here it is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758
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On June 24 2013 13:34 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 11:39 learning88 wrote:Hi everyone. I'm in Plat/Gold and I was thinking of trying some early aggression in my ZvZ. I've been doing 15p, 16h, 16g but almost all my games end with speedling all-ins from my opponents which gets kind of boring since its not that hard to hide lings in your base and just a-move in  . I wanted to try being more aggressive early on and I remember Life used to do this ZvZ build where he went something like 11p, 18h and manages to usually cancel opponent's expo before it got up. I was wondering if that is the build that he did before or if someone can link me to the BO, that would be great. I think he did this build near the end of WoL, not sure about now since I haven't been watching a lot of tourneys but I feel it'll still be about the same in HotS since early-game is relatively the same. Glons ZvZ guide from the end of WoL has a section with life's ZvZ build you were asking about. That being said, I don't think it's a good build for a gold/plat player. Your 15 pool with a baneling nest before speed basically crushes speedling Allins. It's a more stable starting point for ZvZ. Although you can't be really agressive early on. Edit. Forgot link http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391077
Thanks for the link. When you said you don't think this is a good build for a gold/plat player, do you mean that I should go for more of a macro/mechanic oriented build (since I'm a gold/plat) or do you mean that the build itself is not very good in general?
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On June 25 2013 03:34 StatixEx wrote:
My issue at the moment is mass air protoss, plenty voids to begin with (they seem to cannon and turtle up in their base, so i cant get near them i send in a timing of 1/1 hydras and lings but they get taken apart. then the carriers start to show up as i get to 4 base, and then the tempest. in the end the toss player just has this army which completely decimated 2 hydra 2/2 armies, then an infester hydra army then i just when wtf and made some corruptors . . .
so if you see this what should you be going for? My only other play would have been not to tech into hydras but go mass mass corruptor . . .but this strat i only see now and again and never been able to beat it
dont go hydras...they suck imo. if you see them turtle up with mass stargates your best bet is to go SHs with lots of spores while getting up a lot of bases + 2x spire to get upgrades once on 4-5 bases. try to deny his 4th base with the SH nydus spores queens setup and add vipers. starve him out and add your double upgraded corruptors while getting a lot of spores and spines + 4-5 infestors.
as for the engagements: only move in with your locust wave and try to abduct some stuff and sniping it with your corruptors.you have to be very patient but you are not on a timer. you have more bases and with mass static defense they are safe from mass zealot and DT warp ins.
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Playing macro in ZvT feels almost impossible at the moment, not sure how to approach this match up. If it's not hellbat drops that kill so many damn drones it's something else like mech. Mech on split map is auto-gg. I'm just lost @ this match up atm
actually what kills me the most vs biomine is drops. it's becomes impossible to defend vs multiple drops after a while because you become so spread out and 8 marines + medivac kills shit SO fucking fast you need to send at least triple supply of that of lings just to force the drop away, god forbid you can't actually kill the fucking thing if you don't go muta. what do i need? 5 spores/spines per base?
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On June 25 2013 07:03 Incognoto wrote:
Playing macro in ZvT feels almost impossible at the moment, not sure how to approach this match up. If it's not hellbat drops that kill so many damn drones it's something else like mech. Mech on split map is auto-gg. I'm just lost @ this match up atm
It's actually really easy to beat mech as long as you go swarmhost/roach/hydra then viper/sh/roach/hydra/ultra (or broodlord).
For bio macro play is very hard. Roach/ling/bane busts are super effective, playing a straight macro game you either need to be super aggressive (like do a muta/ling/bane timing after holding an attack) or play super greedy (taking a 4'th expo at like 9 minutes for example). Counter attacks are also very strong as well.
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well, thanks for the advice, i'll try to work around with those ideas. ^^
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Hi! I have approximatly 0% win rate with the Soulkey roach attack described in the OP. I do everything as described by the build in time or even often faster. Terrans play very greedy 3CC with harass that does nothing. I push with a ton of roaches, 1/1 melee, and a bunch of speed banes. I usually kill all the army, and the workers at the natural and third. The terran seem to narrowly hold with reinforcements and pulling scvs in the main. I find that I am very far behind in this case and the terran just makes a few rounds of units (around 100 supply) and a-moves maurauder hellbat into my ~170 supply roach bane and easily wins the fight. What can I do to have more success? Is there a better way to play the matchup? I feel like regardless of what I do I'm far behind if terran ever has 3CC. I feel hopeless in this matchup, as in macro games I usually hover around 200apm and defend early harass very well, to then get obliterated by 100-150 apm terrans on 3 bases.
Usually I play macro, quick 3 base into double upgrades into mutas. Doesn't work very well though, again I get destroyed if T gets 3base! So I tried to all in but no cigar.
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On June 25 2013 08:32 Steel wrote:
Hi! I have approximatly 0% win rate with the Soulkey roach attack described in the OP. I do everything as described by the build in time or even often faster. Terrans play very greedy 3CC with harass that does nothing. I push with a ton of roaches, 1/1 melee, and a bunch of speed banes. I usually kill all the army, and the workers at the natural and third. The terran seem to narrowly hold with reinforcements and pulling scvs in the main. I find that I am very far behind in this case and the terran just makes a few rounds of units (around 100 supply) and a-moves maurauder hellbat into my ~170 supply roach bane and easily wins the fight. What can I do to have more success? Is there a better way to play the matchup? I feel like regardless of what I do I'm far behind if terran ever has 3CC. I feel hopeless in this matchup, as in macro games I usually hover around 200apm and defend early harass very well, to then get obliterated by 100-150 apm terrans on 3 bases.
Usually I play macro, quick 3 base into double upgrades into mutas. Doesn't work very well though, again I get destroyed if T gets 3base! So I tried to all in but no cigar.
Hi, try the Triple Barrel of TangSC, i have like 90% of WR with this build
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On June 25 2013 08:54 PSosa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 08:32 Steel wrote:
Hi! I have approximatly 0% win rate with the Soulkey roach attack described in the OP. I do everything as described by the build in time or even often faster. Terrans play very greedy 3CC with harass that does nothing. I push with a ton of roaches, 1/1 melee, and a bunch of speed banes. I usually kill all the army, and the workers at the natural and third. The terran seem to narrowly hold with reinforcements and pulling scvs in the main. I find that I am very far behind in this case and the terran just makes a few rounds of units (around 100 supply) and a-moves maurauder hellbat into my ~170 supply roach bane and easily wins the fight. What can I do to have more success? Is there a better way to play the matchup? I feel like regardless of what I do I'm far behind if terran ever has 3CC. I feel hopeless in this matchup, as in macro games I usually hover around 200apm and defend early harass very well, to then get obliterated by 100-150 apm terrans on 3 bases.
Usually I play macro, quick 3 base into double upgrades into mutas. Doesn't work very well though, again I get destroyed if T gets 3base! So I tried to all in but no cigar. Hi, try the Triple Barrel of TangSC, i have like 90% of WR with this build
Thank you I will!
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I still wish someone would explain to me the Soulkey all in.
You get 1-1, then anything else or?
You started pumping roaches at saturation...16 or 24 drones saturation?
Why 5 gases? You're only getting ling bane roach...
What time do you hit at? Again since you don't get anything after 1-1 there's no 'timing.'
Honestly I often get a huge lead in the early game because Terran tries to harass and fucks up his micro yet when I get to his base he just blindly build maurauder mine which essentially hard counters my composition...
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On June 25 2013 06:25 learning88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 13:34 MstrJinbo wrote:On June 24 2013 11:39 learning88 wrote:Hi everyone. I'm in Plat/Gold and I was thinking of trying some early aggression in my ZvZ. I've been doing 15p, 16h, 16g but almost all my games end with speedling all-ins from my opponents which gets kind of boring since its not that hard to hide lings in your base and just a-move in . I wanted to try being more aggressive early on and I remember Life used to do this ZvZ build where he went something like 11p, 18h and manages to usually cancel opponent's expo before it got up. I was wondering if that is the build that he did before or if someone can link me to the BO, that would be great. I think he did this build near the end of WoL, not sure about now since I haven't been watching a lot of tourneys but I feel it'll still be about the same in HotS since early-game is relatively the same. Glons ZvZ guide from the end of WoL has a section with life's ZvZ build you were asking about. That being said, I don't think it's a good build for a gold/plat player. Your 15 pool with a baneling nest before speed basically crushes speedling Allins. It's a more stable starting point for ZvZ. Although you can't be really agressive early on. Edit. Forgot link http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391077 Thanks for the link. When you said you don't think this is a good build for a gold/plat player, do you mean that I should go for more of a macro/mechanic oriented build (since I'm a gold/plat) or do you mean that the build itself is not very good in general?
No its a perfectly good build. if it was flat out bad, one would expect gsl champs like Life wouldn't use it. In actuality its a very good zvz build especially when pitted against a 15 hatch. But you are just thinking of going from a macro focused 15 pool to kind of an all in 10 pool variation. Figured I should put some effort into trying to talk you out of it 
once you l
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After watching this weekends Homestory cup I've come across some new macro builds that work consistently for me on the ladder (aka standard builds). I'm curious of what your guys' thoughts are on them.
Snute's "Swarm-Style" ZvT
Used in the finals against Taeja with great success this build relies on using t1 units to hold off until you're on a 4 base/4 gas economy with 2/2 upgrades. Once there you can crash wave after wave of Roach/Ling/Bane into the terran until he simply can't keep up.
![[image loading]](http://gosugamers.net/starcraft2/images/2012/december/snute-hsc.jpg)
9 Overlord
15 Hatch
17 Pool
17 Overlord
Queenx2 Lingx4 (3:50)
Queenx2 (4:40)
Gasx2 (5:20)
Hatch - 3rd (5:50)
Evo x2 (6:30)
Roach Warren (6:45)
+1 Melee/+1 Carapace (7:00)
Gas x2 (7:20)
*Pool resources
Roach x6 (7:45)
Lair (8:10)
Zergling speed + Baneling nest (8:35)
Hatch - 4th (9:00)
Baneling speed + Roach speed (9:45)
+2 Melee/+2 Carapace (10:00)
Execution
+ Show Spoiler +
Open up with four queens to get a solid creep spread going and enough defense to fend off basic hellion harass. As the second set of queens is about to spawn thrown down the double gas at your natural and finish saturating the minerals. With the next 300 minerals establish your third base then finish saturating your natural (10 drones on mins 6 on gas when you put it down). Once you reach 150 gas drop double Evo at the front of your base then finish off the wall with a roach warren (leave enough room for a queen to block). When your evo chambers finish start 1/1 then get the gases in your main base, and start pooling ~510/150 for roaches. When your warren finishes get 6 roaches and start lair then build a baneling nest and get zergling speed. Having droned this entire time your third should be almost finished saturating, and when it is take your fourth. Your lair should finish shortly afterwards making it possible for you to get roach/bane speed and 2/2. While those upgrades are finishing mass up a solid ling/bane force with roach support. When 2/2 finishes kill him, if you can't then gas up your 3rd/4th and react to what he's doing accordingly.
tl;dr high econ 2/2 timing
Replay: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=32h10m09s
Hyun's "12-Minute Viper" ZvP
Out of all the builds I looked at this one is far and away the most calculated. Hyun does the safe ling-speed opener (regardless of the enemies build), then transitions into a hydra/ling composition on 3-base. He then polishes off the toss with a massive hydroach attack using vipers to kill off the big name units.
![[image loading]](https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSiT87k02uVlX482CnvH-Pwfp5ewtnmqOHH97giOaGSeIK2N-8-)
9 Overlord
14 Pool
16 Overlord
16 Hatch
Queen + Gas ~ (3:10)
Queen (4:00)
Speed (4:40)
Hatch - 3rd (6:00)
Queen (6:10)
Lair (6:30)
Macro Hatch (6:50)
Gas x2 (7:00)
Roach Warren (7:30)
Infestation + Gas x3 (8:00)
Hydra Den (8:10)
*Pool resources
Hydra x10 (9:00)
Hive (9:30)
Hydra range (9:40)
Evo chamber (9:50)
Roach speed/+1 ranged (10:30)
Hydra speed (11:00)
Viper x3 (11:15)
*Mass hydroaches
Attack (12:00)
Execution
+ Show Spoiler +Do the standard ZvP gas opener and get speed at the usual 4:35-4:50 timing then take 1 out of gas. Saturate your natural then take your third base while getting your third queen at your natural. Start lair when you have enough money then save up another 300 minerals and get a macro hatch at your natural. After this you then take two more gases and get a roach warren. When lair finishes get an infestation pit + hydra den and the rest of your gases. Finish saturating your bases and start pooling money, when your hydra den finishes get ~8-14 then start hive. Start hydra range and get an evo chamber shortly afterwards. Add more hydras as you can then start roach speed and +1 range when your evo finishes. When your hydra range finishes start hydra speed and save up 300/600 gas for 3 vipers when hive finishes. While your vipers are morphing start adding roaches into your composition. When your vipers finish use your macro hatch to consume energy then push out when they have enough for at least 1 pull each.
Replay: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=23h02m30s
Violet's "Safe Roach Opener" ZvZ
Obviously not solely used by Violet. This style involves the generic gas opener into an aggressive ling timing into quick lair/+1 roaches.
![[image loading]](https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/3018440682/782ae013524e23a549e14b9697119b61.jpeg)
9 Overlord
15 Pool
16 Hatch
15 Overlord
15 Queen + Gas
*Ling scout
Queen (3:50)
Speed (4:15)
Baneling Nest (5:00)
Lingxx3 (5:30)
Lingxx3 (6:10)
Lair (6:20)
Evo chamber (6:45)
Gasx3 (7:00)
Roach Warren (7:15)
+1 Ranged (7:45)
Roach Speed (8:10)
*Produce roaches and react accordingly
Execution
+ Show Spoiler +Open pool first because ladder is a terrible place. After getting your baneling nest use your first set of injects to get 3 sets of lings then finish saturating your natural. With your next 3 larvae make more lings then start lair. Use your lings to get map control and harass when possible. If you scout the other guy without a bling nest you can probably just cut your losses and ling/bling all in. Otherwise get an Evo and 3 gases around the time lair is half-way finished, then a roach warren shortly thereafter. Get +1 ranged attack and Roach speed when you can after that.
Replay: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=24h37m
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That's really fancy Bates, nice post! I'm bookmarking that post so I can come re-read it later when looking for new styles or something ^^
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EPT
