On June 20 2013 03:53 eburnsdaniel wrote: My ZvT has plummeted in hots. What are you supposed to do against mech? Players who are massively inferior to me are beating me with it. I watch to see what pros are doing and they seem to be losing to it. The problem with swarm hosts is that they are useless when they aren't in critical numbers. The terran can move across the map very early with tanks, thors, hellbats and medivacs. The hell bats themselves are extremely powerful. I can only trade hugely inefficiently.
My question is what are you supposed to do when you scout the additional factories. I am watching terrans make 3 or 4 cc and defending large numbers of roaches with small numbers of units. They don't wall in, dont build bunkers. They often have extremely low apm. It is very frustrating.
Hm well swarmhosts are the easiest way. You have to remember that mech is not bio. It takes a lot longer to get a strong mech ball then it does to make a strong bio ball. If the terran tries any cute pre-swarmhost timing, it's going to be with very little units and you will be able to make roach/ling at the last second and still hold it off easily.
You should be doing swarmhost/roach/hydra into viper/swarmhost/roach/hydra.
Here is a video guide I made:
I literally still do the same thing as today (except sometimes I get muta first then swarmhost).
On June 20 2013 03:53 eburnsdaniel wrote: My ZvT has plummeted in hots. What are you supposed to do against mech? Players who are massively inferior to me are beating me with it. I watch to see what pros are doing and they seem to be losing to it. The problem with swarm hosts is that they are useless when they aren't in critical numbers. The terran can move across the map very early with tanks, thors, hellbats and medivacs. The hell bats themselves are extremely powerful. I can only trade hugely inefficiently.
My question is what are you supposed to do when you scout the additional factories. I am watching terrans make 3 or 4 cc and defending large numbers of roaches with small numbers of units. They don't wall in, dont build bunkers. They often have extremely low apm. It is very frustrating.
Things like this aren't constructive and thinking about them only serves to complicate the problem.
Talking about them defending roaches, you shouldn't be attacking with roaches against mech. It's defensive in nature, and you should feel free to drone and tech while they basically do the same. I agree with blade's post, swarmhosts are the answer to mech and basically shut it down if used correctly, and once they have enough army to out-muscle the swarmhosts, you should have vipers/broodlords that ruin mech.
The fast pushes you talked about are different however, and the answer is demonstrated very effectively by this game: Here. Kane used roach/bane against the hellbat heavy force, as the earlier these pushes come the more hellbats they will have, as they are the fastest massable mech unit, and as the pushes come later and have stronger units, that's when you have time go get swarmhosts instead. But for the early pushes, roaches are sufficient as long as you split and set up good concaves, and morph enough banes for the hellbats. Once Kane has dealt with the early push, he goes into swarmhosts and then vipers, and crushes his opponent.
TL;DR Don't be so negative about losing - mistakes are to be learnt from, roach/bane against early mech pushes, swarmhost --> hive for longer mech play
I'm looking for a roach based build for zvz. I've been running into a lot of double upgraded lings and +1 attack roaches should be pretty strong against that, right? Even a rough outline would be helpful. Thanks.
On June 20 2013 10:47 schwza wrote: I'm looking for a roach based build for zvz. I've been running into a lot of double upgraded lings and +1 attack roaches should be pretty strong against that, right? Even a rough outline would be helpful. Thanks.
Go standard play, when you have 100 gas for T2, then add double evo, then double upgrade and RW.
Or
Go standard play, when you have 70 gas, add an evo, research attack upgrade, go T2 and add a RW.
Basically thats it. Scout and be ready to add a hydra den and build spores if your opponent is going mutalisks. Place your Roaches behind your mineral lines if he goes mass upgraded lings. And just build roaches if he goes roaches, obviously
If hellbats dont receive a nerf, when is the best answer to deal with them ?
Currently I : - Add one spore / base - Add 1 or 2 queens - Build roaches or Add even more queens, depending on my build
But then the drops start, and I just lose tons of mining time because I have to micro 2 lines of drones so that hellbats dont burn them. Usually its always double drop, even triple medivac drop sometimes. Usually I dont die to hellbat drops. I lose from 5 to 15 drones. But the push following up is crazy strong... And I mostly die to hellbat/marines push or hellbat/marauder push, with tons of barracks on 3 base.
On June 20 2013 15:44 Insoleet wrote: If hellbats dont receive a nerf, when is the best answer to deal with them ?
Currently I : - Add one spore / base - Add 1 or 2 queens - Build roaches or Add even more queens, depending on my build
But then the drops start, and I just lose tons of mining time because I have to micro 2 lines of drones so that hellbats dont burn them. Usually its always double drop, even triple medivac drop sometimes. Usually I dont die to hellbat drops. I lose from 5 to 15 drones. But the push following up is crazy strong... And I mostly die to hellbat/marines push or hellbat/marauder push, with tons of barracks on 3 base.
Is there any "perfect answer" ?
thats pretty much what you need to do. what i found to be most effective is 4 roaches + 2 queens + 1 spore per base. focus down first hellbat, then 2nd. imo with the spore in the mineral line this is the fastest way to get rid of the drop since if medivac stays in spore it dies anyway, if he microes it, he can safe it anyway and medivac will stay alive even if queens focus it so you lost time killing bats. so basically build 4 roaches at the time the drop will arrive, 30 sec later build 4 more if he hasnt dropped yet (dont build 4 more if he lost bats in first drop). this suggests you scouted hellbatdrop incoming which isnt always possible but saccing ovi, counting helions and poking with lings can help a lot to figure it out.
you could also try to defend roachless with a spine per base + more queens and/or speedlings but imo thats very risky and you will take a lot of damage if he goes for a 4 or 6 hellbatdrop in 1 spot which will easy take out 1 spine.
I know to send the first overlord, but that doesn't get there for a while. I also don't see that many drone scouts. Should my first scout be zerglings?
what build do you want to use in ZvZ if you want to go roach/hydra? i mean.. i need some rough timing about how to build 2 evos chamber, roach warren and the third..
On June 20 2013 17:17 Vynlenn wrote: What are the best tools for zerg to use to scout?
What timings should these scouts go out?
I know to send the first overlord, but that doesn't get there for a while. I also don't see that many drone scouts. Should my first scout be zerglings?
These are very general questions, so here are some very general answers:
ZvP/ZvT - scout your opponent's natural with your first overlord. If no base by 5 minutes at natural, sac an overlord into his main. If the natural is there/started, sac at ~6 minutes.
ZvZ - Depends on your opening, but in general you're going to be keeping an eye on his natural drone count with an overlord and then running zerglings around to get more specific info. There's no real set time for this as everything is varied based on openings from either side. You'll be comparing his drone count to yours and then making decisions from there.
I drone scount in zvt to help me deal with 11/11 rax or 8/8/8. This is a playstyle choice that is up to you. The other two match ups are mostly fine to not drone scout, and just react based upon OL scouting.
It sounds like you may be worrying about what your opponent is doing right as the game is starting. Mostly, you don't need to care. You can play the standard 15p openers in zvp/zvz and survive against any allin that hits that early without drone scouting. In ZvT I (and most pros, from what I can see) have particular trouble against things like 8/8/8 and double proxy rax, so I drone scout.
On June 20 2013 18:46 bypLy wrote: How do you defend 10pool with 15pool ? I know 15 pool is supposed to counter 10 pool but for some reason I always end up behind.
If your opponent is moving lings into your main, make a queen/lings and keep them in your mineral line. If he attacks into you, micro your drones and kill him with ling/drone. If he's attacking your natural you will need to pull some drones (4? ish) to fend him off with ling/drone/queen.
Be aware of his natural timing with your overlord; if no natural is planted he's got gas (or is bad). There's several options, but if he's doing 10p banes you will need to add a spine and more queens to protect yourself.
so in HoTS whats the protocol for P putting pylons behind your building natural when I go 15p/16h? My last game where this happened the P didnt pull it off real well, had about 3 pylons and 1 cannon at my Natural, pylon blocked what would be my 3rd and I was forced to take my 4. then since I didnt know what to do I made a hatch outside his natural to scare him into building defenses which he did. Im reall trolling at this point cuz idk what I'm doing and that hatch dies and he warps an army from the pylons still at my natural. I lose but if I can be like CatZ and do the hatch outside the natural thing that'll be cool.
On June 21 2013 08:22 Mvrio wrote: so in HoTS whats the protocol for P putting pylons behind your building natural when I go 15p/16h? My last game where this happened the P didnt pull it off real well, had about 3 pylons and 1 cannon at my Natural, pylon blocked what would be my 3rd and I was forced to take my 4. then since I didnt know what to do I made a hatch outside his natural to scare him into building defenses which he did. Im reall trolling at this point cuz idk what I'm doing and that hatch dies and he warps an army from the pylons still at my natural. I lose but if I can be like CatZ and do the hatch outside the natural thing that'll be cool.
my tale is over but ya what should I do now? lol
with 15P your lings should be out before he can get cannons. Also why would a toss cannon if you're not going 15H? Really bad because it rarely works.
So i have been having some problems with ZvZ recently since the meta switched to mass roaches it seems. I have a 15H/15P/17G 1/1 Ling flood that hits around 10 minutes. It seems to do fantastic as long as they don't have 15+ roaches. During the attack I take my 3rd and saturate it asap and move into Mutalisks since they're strong vs roaches. But as I said earlier, this hasn't been the most smooth going recently. So I'm totally open for new builds/tips/etc. Thanks in advance
Hi everybody! I have an existential doubt . As a Zerg I try to be ahead in one base again Terran and Toss. (I have one vs two, two vs three,...) but more than 4 mining bases isn't efficient because this would require too many workers. So, when Terran or Toss are on 3 bases (with his mules and stuff) I feel isn't enough with take another base to balance our incomings and I feel some invisible pression that says "I can't mining more than he and my army is weaker". How do you affront this situation? Thanks.
On June 21 2013 19:12 Destruktor wrote: Hi everybody! I have an existential doubt . As a Zerg I try to be ahead in one base again Terran and Toss. (I have one vs two, two vs three,...) but more than 4 mining bases isn't efficient because this would require too many workers. So, when Terran or Toss are on 3 bases (with his mules and stuff) I feel isn't enough with take another base to balance our incomings and I feel some invisible pression that says "I can't mining more than he and my army is more weaker". How do you affront this situation? Thanks.
That's how:
1st base = 6 + 16 drones 2nd base = 6 + 16 drones 3rd base = 6 + 16 drones 4st base = 6 drones (on gas)
Total = 72 drones.
You can actually go higher that this. I would say that this actually is the minimum for a late-game setting. You usually want to go higher to build a bank, then build static defense with it.
On June 21 2013 19:12 Destruktor wrote: Hi everybody! I have an existential doubt . As a Zerg I try to be ahead in one base again Terran and Toss. (I have one vs two, two vs three,...) but more than 4 mining bases isn't efficient because this would require too many workers. So, when Terran or Toss are on 3 bases (with his mules and stuff) I feel isn't enough with take another base to balance our incomings and I feel some invisible pression that says "I can't mining more than he and my army is more weaker". How do you affront this situation? Thanks.
That's how:
1st base = 6 + 16 drones 2nd base = 6 + 16 drones 3rd base = 6 + 16 drones 4st base = 6 drones (on gas)
Total = 72 drones.
You can actually go higher that this. I would say that this actually is the minimum for a late-game setting. You usually want to go higher to build a bank, then build static defense with it.
Thanks for your advice aXa. I'll try to be ever on this mineral satutarion and and I hope that Terran/Toss doesn't take his 4th base. By the way? Is rentable for Terran/Toss to take 4th base before deplete his main? or this is only a for Zerg. Thanks
On June 21 2013 19:12 Destruktor wrote: Hi everybody! I have an existential doubt . As a Zerg I try to be ahead in one base again Terran and Toss. (I have one vs two, two vs three,...) but more than 4 mining bases isn't efficient because this would require too many workers. So, when Terran or Toss are on 3 bases (with his mules and stuff) I feel isn't enough with take another base to balance our incomings and I feel some invisible pression that says "I can't mining more than he and my army is more weaker". How do you affront this situation? Thanks.
That's how:
1st base = 6 + 16 drones 2nd base = 6 + 16 drones 3rd base = 6 + 16 drones 4st base = 6 drones (on gas)
Total = 72 drones.
You can actually go higher that this. I would say that this actually is the minimum for a late-game setting. You usually want to go higher to build a bank, then build static defense with it.
Thanks for your advice aXa. I'll try to be ever on this mineral satutarion and and I hope that Terran/Toss doesn't take his 4th base. By the way? Is rentable for Terran/Toss to take 4th base before deplete his main? or this is only a for Zerg. Thanks
I play T. When i am forced to stay longer on 2 bases with 3OC (faster 4th cause i will be mined out faster), or there are phases in the game with low combat unit count (after a big fight), i like to take my 4th and planetary it. Many times i also try to sneak a 4th in at like 15:00 or so, losing the CC is quite hard (lift it) and when its a fortress, my opponent is gonna have problems to take it out cost efficiently. I can only imagine how awesome it is as a P to get a somewhat fast 4th and reinforce it with cannons before running out in the main.
I just played a couple games against terran in plat league, and I found really difficult to beat their composition with muta/ling/bane. They both went marine/medivac/hellbat and some tanks.
With the hellbats in the front, they could instant kill my lings and tank all banelings easily, so that the marines could focus my Mutas. I can't see any way of beating it in the early game, besides going for a flank, but even this way was really difficul to engage. Any thoughts?
EPT
. As a Zerg I try to be ahead in one base again Terran and Toss. (I have one vs two, two vs three,...) but more than 4 mining bases isn't efficient because this would require too many workers. So, when Terran or Toss are on 3 bases (with his mules and stuff) I feel isn't enough with take another base to balance our incomings and I feel some invisible pression that says "I can't mining more than he and my army is weaker". How do you affront this situation? 
