EPTI can't even really deny his third because of the hellbats even if I kill the medivacs
even if the mutas are more or less jsut used defensively due to one missed drop can kill like 50 drones
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 69
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ETisME
12516 Posts
I can't even really deny his third because of the hellbats even if I kill the medivacs even if the mutas are more or less jsut used defensively due to one missed drop can kill like 50 drones | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On June 15 2013 23:55 ETisME wrote: someone please tell me, how do you ever move out against a terran that does a lot of hellbat drops and just turtling into a huge bio ball with mines? I can't even really deny his third because of the hellbats even if I kill the medivacs even if the mutas are more or less jsut used defensively due to one missed drop can kill like 50 drones if you scout hellbat drops build 1 spore per mineral line, get no lings at all and build few roaches while droning and teching very hard. if he continues to do hellbat drops add 1 spine per base. imo vs any opening thats factory based its much better to just get some roaches and no lings and those roaches can be used later on vs hellbat drops (get 4 roaches stephano like to take your 3rd vs gas T) and add 4 or so vs hellbat drops. after that yeah ling bane muta or speedbane speedroach busts. since i think you have to outplay your oppoent in ZvT right now in a macro game to win i suggest doing a speedbane speedroach bust  | ||
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jbuck92
United States13 Posts
On June 16 2013 01:28 Decendos wrote: . after that yeah ling bane muta or speedbane speedroach busts. since i think you have to outplay your oppoent in ZvT right now in a macro game to win i suggest doing a speedbane speedroach bust I definitely agree with that outplaying in a macro game statement. My last 5 or 6 ZvT matches have been anywhere from 30-45 minutes long. Had one last night that was 47 | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
My question is, how does 6 queen do against reaper openings? Do you (can you) get gas reactively in time and is it worth it? | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On June 16 2013 07:44 Karpfen wrote: 6 queen doesn't do well vs reaper openings. If they scout lack of gas they can just mass reapers and really become unstoppable. 6 queen works very very well vs non reaper openings though. i think it was snute who said in the "ask pros" thread who said 4 queen gasless into reacting is viable. so while 6 queen gasless might not be viable IF you see them mass reaper, 4 queen opening into spine + gas is viable and also if they do standard 1-2 reaper into factory 6 queen gasless is viable. so you only have to not get 5th and 6th queen if they go mass reaper (which is pretty easy to scout since there is not 1 marine to shoot your ovi  ) | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
On June 16 2013 08:02 Decendos wrote: i think it was snute who said in the "ask pros" thread who said 4 queen gasless into reacting is viable. so while 6 queen gasless might not be viable IF you see them mass reaper, 4 queen opening into spine + gas is viable and also if they do standard 1-2 reaper into factory 6 queen gasless is viable. so you only have to not get 5th and 6th queen if they go mass reaper (which is pretty easy to scout since there is not 1 marine to shoot your ovi )Thanks  just the answer i was looking for | ||
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Rianabi
Sweden5 Posts
On June 15 2013 18:50 Decendos wrote: yeah but obv there is a perfect BO to counter from there on. "maybe built a spine or two" is an insanely expensive and game winning or losing decision. thats what i would like to have. a perfect response to 8 rax reaper after going hatch first and scouting his main with a drone. so a clear BO that for example says: pool finishes 6 lings + 1 queen + 1 spine, take lingspeed and drones of gas, at xy supply built 2nd queen or spine or more lings, when to start droning again etc. oh and no you havent basically won. T gets a CC behind this pretty fast and always does a lot of damage. I get what you are saying, but with an early rush like that, there IS no "build order" your economy is too restricted, you build what you CAN build, the only "build ordery thing" too it is pull guys out off gas when you hit 100 gas for speed. Basically you have to micro drones against reapers until your pool finishes, and then go into non stop queen production, and when you are producing queens AND have enough minerals left over, get spines. A build order is pointless, and more importantly useless since it all depends on drone count, did you spot the proxy at 15 drones? How many drones does he kill with his reapers? Is he also placing down bunkers? A food timing build order is ONLY ever useful when you are not being messed with and those food numbers are actually accurate, and a 8 rax proxy reapers is highly under the category of "being messed with" Just did some timing benchmarks, first reaper will pop out at 3:20, make it into your base at 3:30-3:40, this is the best case scenario on a 2 player map. Zerg timings: 15 hatch. 15 pool. 15 gas. 3:40: Pool finishes 4:30 speed starts 4:35 first queen pops out 6:15 speed finishes That's about a minute of drone vs reaper micro, this is where you win or loose the game, if you protect the drones until the queen pops out, you are good! The fastest the terran can START an expand, is around 5:00-5:30, that's with no bunkers, no proper wall, no additional rax at home, so it's more like 6:00-6:30, wich is right around the time your speed finishes. This is an all in from the terran, if you hold this off in the early game, his tech will be so far behind that basically any proper roach/roach+ling/bane followup you do around the 7-8min mark will CRUSH him. The closest i can get to a build order for you is 2 queens + 6-8 lings right as the pool finishes (lings will die, they are there to distract until the queens pop) pull guys off gas as soon as you can get speed, start 3rd and 4th queen as soon as possible, put down 2 spines while they are building, and most importantly, DRONE during this time, lings will do NOTHING until speed finishes wich is a good 3min after the reaper harass starts, and the followup push that kills the terran is all dependant on you having a good economy. (after the 3rd and 4th queen, add on a 5th and 6th and 2 more spines if he keeps building reapers) You can also skip out on the followup push, grab a 3rd base and go into a macro game, but i would recomend going for the push, with an early proxy like that, it's VERY likely to do alot of damage. | ||
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SweKenZo
Sweden82 Posts
On June 09 2013 11:36 hearters wrote: Anyone has some tips against against raven/viking/bc? Should I just stop building ground units and mass corruptors? Dunno if anyone already replied to this but, doesnt ling bane counter attacks be able to do alot of damage while setting up strong defences at home? (queen, spores corruptors and infestors) (maybe even hydras) | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
On June 16 2013 11:21 Rianabi wrote: I get what you are saying, but with an early rush like that, there IS no "build order" your economy is too restricted, you build what you CAN build, the only "build ordery thing" too it is pull guys out off gas when you hit 100 gas for speed. Basically you have to micro drones against reapers until your pool finishes, and then go into non stop queen production, and when you are producing queens AND have enough minerals left over, get spines. A build order is pointless, and more importantly useless since it all depends on drone count, did you spot the proxy at 15 drones? How many drones does he kill with his reapers? Is he also placing down bunkers? A food timing build order is ONLY ever useful when you are not being messed with and those food numbers are actually accurate, and a 8 rax proxy reapers is highly under the category of "being messed with" Just did some timing benchmarks, first reaper will pop out at 3:20, make it into your base at 3:30-3:40, this is the best case scenario on a 2 player map. Zerg timings: 15 hatch. 15 pool. 15 gas. 3:40: Pool finishes 4:30 speed starts 4:35 first queen pops out 6:15 speed finishes That's about a minute of drone vs reaper micro, this is where you win or loose the game, if you protect the drones until the queen pops out, you are good! The fastest the terran can START an expand, is around 5:00-5:30, that's with no bunkers, no proper wall, no additional rax at home, so it's more like 6:00-6:30, wich is right around the time your speed finishes. This is an all in from the terran, if you hold this off in the early game, his tech will be so far behind that basically any proper roach/roach+ling/bane followup you do around the 7-8min mark will CRUSH him. The closest i can get to a build order for you is 2 queens + 6-8 lings right as the pool finishes (lings will die, they are there to distract until the queens pop) pull guys off gas as soon as you can get speed, start 3rd and 4th queen as soon as possible, put down 2 spines while they are building, and most importantly, DRONE during this time, lings will do NOTHING until speed finishes wich is a good 3min after the reaper harass starts, and the followup push that kills the terran is all dependant on you having a good economy. (after the 3rd and 4th queen, add on a 5th and 6th and 2 more spines if he keeps building reapers) You can also skip out on the followup push, grab a 3rd base and go into a macro game, but i would recomend going for the push, with an early proxy like that, it's VERY likely to do alot of damage. Three reapers can kill a queen with basic micro. I say an unscouted proxy reaper push is unstoppable as Zerg. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On June 16 2013 11:21 Rianabi wrote: I get what you are saying, but with an early rush like that, there IS no "build order" your economy is too restricted, you build what you CAN build, the only "build ordery thing" too it is pull guys out off gas when you hit 100 gas for speed. Basically you have to micro drones against reapers until your pool finishes, and then go into non stop queen production, and when you are producing queens AND have enough minerals left over, get spines. A build order is pointless, and more importantly useless since it all depends on drone count, did you spot the proxy at 15 drones? How many drones does he kill with his reapers? Is he also placing down bunkers? A food timing build order is ONLY ever useful when you are not being messed with and those food numbers are actually accurate, and a 8 rax proxy reapers is highly under the category of "being messed with" Just did some timing benchmarks, first reaper will pop out at 3:20, make it into your base at 3:30-3:40, this is the best case scenario on a 2 player map. Zerg timings: 15 hatch. 15 pool. 15 gas. 3:40: Pool finishes 4:30 speed starts 4:35 first queen pops out 6:15 speed finishes That's about a minute of drone vs reaper micro, this is where you win or loose the game, if you protect the drones until the queen pops out, you are good! The fastest the terran can START an expand, is around 5:00-5:30, that's with no bunkers, no proper wall, no additional rax at home, so it's more like 6:00-6:30, wich is right around the time your speed finishes. This is an all in from the terran, if you hold this off in the early game, his tech will be so far behind that basically any proper roach/roach+ling/bane followup you do around the 7-8min mark will CRUSH him. The closest i can get to a build order for you is 2 queens + 6-8 lings right as the pool finishes (lings will die, they are there to distract until the queens pop) pull guys off gas as soon as you can get speed, start 3rd and 4th queen as soon as possible, put down 2 spines while they are building, and most importantly, DRONE during this time, lings will do NOTHING until speed finishes wich is a good 3min after the reaper harass starts, and the followup push that kills the terran is all dependant on you having a good economy. (after the 3rd and 4th queen, add on a 5th and 6th and 2 more spines if he keeps building reapers) You can also skip out on the followup push, grab a 3rd base and go into a macro game, but i would recomend going for the push, with an early proxy like that, it's VERY likely to do alot of damage. thanks for your detailed answer. but still for example at a time you will have for example 300 minerals. do you go for 2 queens or 2 spines and wait for the next 50 min to build the queens or do you use the money on 1 spine or queen and rest to build lings/drones. that kind of thing is definetly plannable. vs 888 reaper you know the timings 100% (around 3:35 first reaper, 4:20 3 reaper, 5:05 5 reaper, 5:50 7 reaper...which is btw the most critical time since 7 reaper microed can easily take down queens and even attack spines for about 30 sec until speed is done which is an insanely huge timing window. also you wont be able to build queens at your natural once he has 5 queens since they die before they reach your main. so while you are right that things can be a bit messy so supply stuff isnt really good messure you can use your mineral count as a good messure. sth. like pool finishes get: xyz and after that: next 150 minerals queen, next 100 min spine, next 150 min drones etc. do you guys know any pro replays that deal with 888 reaper? i know idra just left every game vs it since he thought/thinks (?) its unbeatable with hatch first (not saying it is unbeatable). | ||
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Rianabi
Sweden5 Posts
On June 16 2013 16:00 Decendos wrote: thanks for your detailed answer. but still for example at a time you will have for example 300 minerals. do you go for 2 queens or 2 spines and wait for the next 50 min to build the queens or do you use the money on 1 spine or queen and rest to build lings/drones. that kind of thing is definetly plannable. vs 888 reaper you know the timings 100% (around 3:35 first reaper, 4:20 3 reaper, 5:05 5 reaper, 5:50 7 reaper...which is btw the most critical time since 7 reaper microed can easily take down queens and even attack spines for about 30 sec until speed is done which is an insanely huge timing window. also you wont be able to build queens at your natural once he has 5 queens since they die before they reach your main. so while you are right that things can be a bit messy so supply stuff isnt really good messure you can use your mineral count as a good messure. sth. like pool finishes get: xyz and after that: next 150 minerals queen, next 100 min spine, next 150 min drones etc. do you guys know any pro replays that deal with 888 reaper? i know idra just left every game vs it since he thought/thinks (?) its unbeatable with hatch first (not saying it is unbeatable). I think sacrificing the natural would be the only way to hold it honestly, drop a creep tumour with natural queen, run it to main, run future queens to your main aswell, sac expansion. And as to the spine vs queen thing, i would always go with queens, spines are far too slow to deal with several reapers, basically always have queens building, and if you have minerals over, build spines, if you still have minerals over, replace spine drones with more drones, if you still have minerals over, build additional drones. More of a flowchart than a build order that :p Got queens building? > Build a spine or two > replace drones > add drones. | ||
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Rianabi
Sweden5 Posts
On June 16 2013 15:53 Falcon-sw wrote: Three reapers can kill a queen with basic micro. I say an unscouted proxy reaper push is unstoppable as Zerg. If the queen does no micro at all, wich would be silly. But i agree, it's pretty god damn hard, dont know if it's unstoppable, but it's pretty close. | ||
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potsos
Greece18 Posts
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Nasreth
United States48 Posts
Just played a ZvT on Newkirk where I felt like I was far ahead, but he ended up having so much stuff in the end of the game that it just didn't make sense to me. I had some pretty good engagements and I did some decent pressure on his third base in my eyes, I even got a sick fungal when my infestors came out. In the end he just straight overwhelmed me though, killed my third and ended the game with frontal pressure and a drop. I just didn't have enough stuff to defend him despite all of my good trades up to that point. I think I had one bad trade when I moved into his mine field with my infestors, and that caused me to lose my third base, but I can't really see what other mistakes I made (if any) that caused me to lose the game in such a one sided fashion, especially considering all the advantages I took early on. Replay: http://drop.sc/344576 Any advice, or simply someone telling me everything I did wrong would be much appreciated. | ||
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Vestige
United States303 Posts
On June 18 2013 14:10 Nasreth wrote: Hi, Just played a ZvT on Newkirk where I felt like I was far ahead, but he ended up having so much stuff in the end of the game that it just didn't make sense to me. I had some pretty good engagements and I did some decent pressure on his third base in my eyes, I even got a sick fungal when my infestors came out. In the end he just straight overwhelmed me though, killed my third and ended the game with frontal pressure and a drop. I just didn't have enough stuff to defend him despite all of my good trades up to that point. I think I had one bad trade when I moved into his mine field with my infestors, and that caused me to lose my third base, but I can't really see what other mistakes I made (if any) that caused me to lose the game in such a one sided fashion, especially considering all the advantages I took early on. Replay: http://drop.sc/344576 Any advice, or simply someone telling me everything I did wrong would be much appreciated. from what i saw, you ended up losing a lot of lings due to rallying them into his base after your main force already died. Your fungals were pretty good ( except for the one that landed on a bunch of burrowed mines), but then you couldnt follow up with good baneling connects. I think the biggest thing though was losing a bunch of units to his reinforcements. I think instead committing as hard as you did on that first attack you had, you justp ressured his front while you teched to mutas and then used the mutas to keep him in his base while you tech to ultras would have been the best plan. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On June 17 2013 18:10 potsos wrote: hi guys a want to ask u an question about upgrades in zvp ? i want to understand when to put 1 or 2 evo to get uprgrades and how many evo's i put depends on the style i will play in this game ? i mean if i go roach hydra should i have 1 or 2 evo's to get +1 +1 or just +1?if i play hydra-sw 1 or 2 for upgrades?i think i donot get the righ number of evo's and i hurt my economy or i am behind ,plz help me. i donot get that if u can explain me thank you for your time! When asking a question, please, try not to abbreviate words. What I do vs a passive toss from either a FFE or GE is I start mining double gas at 6:30 (vs GE you should already have speed), get my lair a bit after 7:05, if I don't have it I get Zergling speed next, then I start double upgrades. If I go mutaling, get Melee and carapace. As roach hydra or SH, get range and carapace. With that said my upgrades start usually around 8:00. | ||
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keimag23
Germany20 Posts
Roaches? to slow to deal with runbys or even secure a 3rd base. Mutas? Fast but not enough dmg to kill Lings waves fast enough. How do I survive this ling terror? (master league) | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On June 19 2013 00:12 keimag23 wrote: Hey guys, I got a problem with ZvZ. Everytime my opponent goes for this fast 3 base mass upgraded ling (alwayscounter attack) thing I dont know how to react. When I scout his tech (no Lair, bane nest, evo chambers) my Lair is on the way and gas startet. (thats how it looks most of the time) But what do I do? What counters this? Roaches? to slow to deal with runbys or even secure a 3rd base. Mutas? Fast but not enough dmg to kill Lings waves fast enough. How do I survive this ling terror? (master league) reactive roach-bane or ling-bling all in deals with this quite well, however, you'll have to scout this asap, before you start your lair. | ||
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keimag23
Germany20 Posts
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