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On June 22 2013 09:04 draketcg wrote:
I just played a couple games against terran in plat league, and I found really difficult to beat their composition with muta/ling/bane. They both went marine/medivac/hellbat and some tanks.
With the hellbats in the front, they could instant kill my lings and tank all banelings easily, so that the marines could focus my Mutas. I can't see any way of beating it in the early game, besides going for a flank, but even this way was really difficul to engage. Any thoughts?
vs marine/marauder/hellbat you generally want to make a fuckton of banelings, because they don't have a proper way of dealing with banes (no or not enough tanks/mines).
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On June 22 2013 09:08 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 09:04 draketcg wrote:
I just played a couple games against terran in plat league, and I found really difficult to beat their composition with muta/ling/bane. They both went marine/medivac/hellbat and some tanks.
With the hellbats in the front, they could instant kill my lings and tank all banelings easily, so that the marines could focus my Mutas. I can't see any way of beating it in the early game, besides going for a flank, but even this way was really difficul to engage. Any thoughts? vs marine/marauder/hellbat you generally want to make a fuckton of banelings, because they don't have a proper way of dealing with banes (no or not enough tanks/mines).
I'll try it next time, thanks for the tip!
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Playing Random this season and I've really been struggling with ZvZ specifically. I've decided I want to refine my 10p speed and 15p>hatch but I'm a tad unsure of how specifically to do the builds. Please correct me:
10p:
Drone to 10 supply - 10/10
Pool 9/10
Drone 10/10
Gas 9/10
Drone 10/10
Ovl 10/18
6 lings 13/18
Drones 15/18
Queen, mine gas to 100 then pull off 17/18
Ovl 17/26
Drone 18/26
Slings with inject, followed by an expand if I pulled off gas or more lings + bane nest if I didn't.
15p:
9 Ovl
(Drone scout at 12? I'm not good at holding 10p blindly)
15 pool
Drone 15/18
Hatch 15/15
Gas 14/18
Drone 15/18
Ling 18/18
Ovl 18/26
Queen, drones as necessary
Is that correct? I'm super unsure of the whole queen/gas/lings after I hatch and when I build my overlord in relation to that - I know if I don't need the 6 lings I should skip but I feel like I delay my queen for a long time if I do build them.
Also, 15p > hatch is pretty much my go-to build vP and vT, I tend to skip lings or only get 2-4, again how does this affect my gas, ovl and queen timing?
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What is standard build vs protoss gateway core expand?
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On June 23 2013 10:44 Marioff wrote:
What is standard build vs protoss gateway core expand?
As soon you see it isn't a ffe/nexus first you imediately take gas instead of a third. Once I get 100 gas I prefer to take out drones of gas. A toss going for a gateexpand is behind in econ compared to a nexus first so he will need to do damage which most likely means he will be agressive. The two most common times for this is 6:30 (when warp finishes) and 10 min. At around 5:30 we check the protoss front for what building he using to wall in with.
If you see only 2-3 gateways its most likely going to come a push at 6:30 so we make lings to prepare. This could be zealots or sentrys lings will handle it all fine.
If you instead see a forge in front his agression will come later so we can drone safely up to 7:30-8 min. It will most likely be a +1 4 gate so make a roach warren asap to be able to defend it. Lings alone wont do it!
There is also some weird uncommon posibilities like seeing a stargate in wall but you still get all the scouting information then and a lot of these will die to a nice ling bust at the front.
Other than that just play normal. It's just the opening that is changed otherwise it's really the same as a nexus first.
I'm mid master zerg on eu with zvp my strongest mu if you are wondering 
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On June 21 2013 19:50 aXa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 19:12 Destruktor wrote:Hi everybody! I have an existential doubt  . As a Zerg I try to be ahead in one base again Terran and Toss. (I have one vs two, two vs three,...) but more than 4 mining bases isn't efficient because this would require too many workers. So, when Terran or Toss are on 3 bases (with his mules and stuff) I feel isn't enough with take another base to balance our incomings and I feel some invisible pression that says "I can't mining more than he and my army is more weaker". How do you affront this situation? Thanks. That's how: 1st base = 6 + 16 drones 2nd base = 6 + 16 drones 3rd base = 6 + 16 drones 4st base = 6 drones (on gas) Total = 72 drones. You can actually go higher that this. I would say that this actually is the minimum for a late-game setting. You usually want to go higher to build a bank, then build static defense with it.
Or when you have a 4th up, and have all your base camera hotkeyed, you can easily transfer 4 drones of each base to the 4th. This way you'll have all your base with only 12 drones in minerals and 6 on gas (you'll obviuosly need to make 8 more for the new 4th gases) and then your main won't be depleted too quickly.
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On June 23 2013 10:28 S7EFEN wrote:
15p:
9 Ovl
(Drone scout at 12? I'm not good at holding 10p blindly)
15 pool
Drone 15/18
Hatch 15/15
Gas 14/18
Drone 15/18
Ling 18/18
Ovl 18/26
Queen, drones as necessary
Is that correct? I'm super unsure of the whole queen/gas/lings after I hatch and when I build my overlord in relation to that - I know if I don't need the 6 lings I should skip but I feel like I delay my queen for a long time if I do build them.
Also, 15p > hatch is pretty much my go-to build vP and vT, I tend to skip lings or only get 2-4, again how does this affect my gas, ovl and queen timing?
For the 15 pool you are cutting too many drones. In general, it should look more like 15 pool -> 16 hatch -> 16 gas. Then get your queens and lings out when the pool finishes. As a rule of thumb, you should never ever have idle larva for any zerg build. When you go pool first, there is also zero reason to drone scout. Its not like a hatch first where you can reactively go pool first if your drone scout sees an early pool. Your drone scout will see the early pool and for the most part your build doesn't change all that much (with the exception that you get zerglings as fast as you can but you dont need a drone scout to tell you that.) Most of the time your scouting overlord will see lings from a 10 pool running across the map, and your spawning pool completes around the time when a 10 pool hits so you only need to hold off with drones for a little bit unit zerglings pop out. Also more often than not in a zvz you are not building 6 lings that early. Usually its a single pair to scout, and you will add on extra as you need them(mostly so you have lings to make defensive banelings). Basically what you are looking for in the early game is 2 hatches, 2 queens, spawning pool, baneling nest, and a spine crawler. from there you can survive just about everything your opponent throws at you and transition to whatever you like.
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On the note of the 15 pool ZvZ style
Has anyone tried it against Gateway-first toss?
-Would you say it's more efficient than the current Ling Speed -> Ovie Speed -> Lair build?
-Have you tried the bling bust variation?
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On June 24 2013 06:15 BatesCsC wrote:
On the note of the 15 pool ZvZ style
Has anyone tried it against Gateway-first toss?
-Would you say it's more efficient than the current Ling Speed -> Ovie Speed -> Lair build?
-Have you tried the bling bust variation?
Econ focused 15 pool into a fast third has been standard in zvp for over 2 years. Baneling busts can work, korean players like leenock mixed it in a fair amount towards the end of wings, but I havent seen it too much recently. In my experience nowadays its a lot harder now with the protoss nexus cannon.
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On June 24 2013 06:15 BatesCsC wrote:
On the note of the 15 pool ZvZ style
Has anyone tried it against Gateway-first toss?
-Would you say it's more efficient than the current Ling Speed -> Ovie Speed -> Lair build?
-Have you tried the bling bust variation?
Ovie speed before Lair is definitely not standard. You should be able to know what's up by checking his gases and sending a (slow) overlord in his main. 15P vs P is standard, although if you see him going gateway first you should go hatch first.
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On June 24 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:
Econ focused 15 pool into a fast third has been standard in zvp for over 2 years. Baneling busts can work, korean players like leenock mixed it in a fair amount towards the end of wings, but I havent seen it too much recently. In my experience nowadays its a lot harder now with the protoss nexus cannon.
I should have specified
I mean doing the standard ZvZ and getting a gas around 2:45-3:00 then getting early speed/baneling nest into trying to secure a third while getting lair tech.
On June 24 2013 07:28 Henk wrote:
Ovie speed before Lair is definitely not standard. You should be able to know what's up by checking his gases and sending a (slow) overlord in his main. 15P vs P is standard, although if you see him going gateway first you should go hatch first.
I posted it to bait out the proper way to play against the gateway-opener, that said though I stole the build from Leenock after the first MLG after Hots' release and it's worked fairly well for me.
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Does anyone of you recommend me to make a roach warren in the early stages of a zvt? I need some units early on to defend my third and just zerglings doesn't cut it. any advice?
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On June 24 2013 08:40 BatesCsC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:
Econ focused 15 pool into a fast third has been standard in zvp for over 2 years. Baneling busts can work, korean players like leenock mixed it in a fair amount towards the end of wings, but I havent seen it too much recently. In my experience nowadays its a lot harder now with the protoss nexus cannon. I should have specified I mean doing the standard ZvZ and getting a gas around 2:45-3:00 then getting early speed/baneling nest into trying to secure a third while getting lair tech.
Yeah I know what you meant. You said gate first, so zergs will go either hatch first into pool and gas or pool first into hatch then gas. If the Protoss puts down a nexus, you build a third. Otherwise defend. Unless you are going for the allin bust, the baneling nest is not built early on in zvp. I haven't seen pro zergs do it too much and when I tried it on the ladder, mothership core and the nexus canon pretty much ruined my fun.
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On June 24 2013 08:55 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 08:40 BatesCsC wrote:On June 24 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:
Econ focused 15 pool into a fast third has been standard in zvp for over 2 years. Baneling busts can work, korean players like leenock mixed it in a fair amount towards the end of wings, but I havent seen it too much recently. In my experience nowadays its a lot harder now with the protoss nexus cannon. I should have specified I mean doing the standard ZvZ and getting a gas around 2:45-3:00 then getting early speed/baneling nest into trying to secure a third while getting lair tech. Yeah I know what you meant. You said gate first, so zergs will go either hatch first into pool and gas or pool first into hatch then gas. If the Protoss puts down a nexus, you build a third. Otherwise defend. Unless you are going for the allin bust, the baneling nest is not built early on in zvp. I haven't seen pro zergs do it too much and when I tried it on the ladder, mothership core and the nexus canon pretty much ruined my fun.
Alrighty thanks man, just didn't want to get laughed off the ladder.
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Hi everyone. I'm in Plat/Gold and I was thinking of trying some early aggression in my ZvZ. I've been doing 15p, 16h, 16g but almost all my games end with speedling all-ins from my opponents which gets kind of boring since its not that hard to hide lings in your base and just a-move in  .
I wanted to try being more aggressive early on and I remember Life used to do this ZvZ build where he went something like 11p, 18h and manages to usually cancel opponent's expo before it got up. I was wondering if that is the build that he did before or if someone can link me to the BO, that would be great. I think he did this build near the end of WoL, not sure about now since I haven't been watching a lot of tourneys but I feel it'll still be about the same in HotS since early-game is relatively the same.
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what the fuck am i supposed to do vs people who do mass air/voids with mothership and ht? it feels literally fucking impossible
you can't counterattack bc they have so much left over minerals for cannons and the main army is literally unbeatable. even if you break into their main or an expo they just fucking recall and its gg.
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On June 24 2013 11:48 joon wrote:
what the fuck am i supposed to do vs people who do mass air/voids with mothership and ht? it feels literally fucking impossible
you can't counterattack bc they have so much left over minerals for cannons and the main army is literally unbeatable. even if you break into their main or an expo they just fucking recall and its gg.
I use a swarm host/queen/hydra/viper style and it seems to work very well
You NEED to abduct the mothership though as the cloak messes up the locusts, The best way to do this is to go meet them out in the middle of the map or move off to the side and abduct the mothership to your awaiting army. Most protoss armies will kind of split up here due to the different speeds. Another way of doing this is get at least 3 overseers and drop their changelings so they don't get feedbacked to death.
Once the mothership is dead the next part can be tricky as you need to make sure your hydra's dance away from the high templars, another reason why you meet them out on the map and retreat with each locust waves. However this is a 100% occurrence for me. for the protoss to storm your hydra/queen they HAVE to get to the front where your locusts are which means that they die quickly as the locusts only attack ground, even if the toss has supporting ground if you're watching you can quickly grab the locusts and snipe the templars. Assuming that they only have void rays, mothership, and templar you want at LEAST 10-14 swarm hosts vs this composition to do the sniping. but as the protoss gets more ground units you get more swarm hosts.
Now to deal with the voids, a lot of queens like 16ish with hydras supporting will take FOREVER to die to voidsrays, so 3/3 queens work very well vs the mass voidray armies. The reason that queens don't die is because they arnt armored and have a shit load of health, because they arn't armored they don't take extra damage from the void boost and because they have a lot of health it is easy to transfuse the main queen or so that is under attack. I find that most void rays a-move or get right clicked on 1 queen in an attempt to bust it down. But with good transfuses that queen will never die and you're trading cost effectively vs a void ray army.
Other things that can help is you can obviously use spores, they deal a lot of damage but the best one you can use is infestors. While it takes like 9 fungals to take down a void you really only need like 4-5 to deal the massive amount of damage you need while the queen/hydra cleans up.
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On June 24 2013 11:39 learning88 wrote:Hi everyone. I'm in Plat/Gold and I was thinking of trying some early aggression in my ZvZ. I've been doing 15p, 16h, 16g but almost all my games end with speedling all-ins from my opponents which gets kind of boring since its not that hard to hide lings in your base and just a-move in . I wanted to try being more aggressive early on and I remember Life used to do this ZvZ build where he went something like 11p, 18h and manages to usually cancel opponent's expo before it got up. I was wondering if that is the build that he did before or if someone can link me to the BO, that would be great. I think he did this build near the end of WoL, not sure about now since I haven't been watching a lot of tourneys but I feel it'll still be about the same in HotS since early-game is relatively the same.
Glons ZvZ guide from the end of WoL has a section with life's ZvZ build you were asking about. That being said, I don't think it's a good build for a gold/plat player. Your 15 pool with a baneling nest before speed basically crushes speedling Allins. It's a more stable starting point for ZvZ. Although you can't be really agressive early on.
Edit. Forgot link
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391077
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Hey!
I'm mid-high master Zerg on Europe and I'm wondering:
ZvZ
a) If there is a efficient way to hold off roach/ling/bane allin when u started with +1 carapace and only stick on ling(bane). What's the best way to deal with it? Cancel third, make some spines and tech lair while you hold off the allin ?
ZvT
b) Wehn you play Muta-Ling/Bane, do you maxout first and go hive afterwards or do you basically rush to it? I don't have really good timings assuming it's a standard macro game
Thanks for the help !
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EPT
