EPTin zvz when i open 15 pool what is the best response to 10pool? with and without gas? do i pull drones initially to help fight lings?
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 151
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mooseman1710
United States153 Posts
in zvz when i open 15 pool what is the best response to 10pool? with and without gas? do i pull drones initially to help fight lings? | ||
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Whitley
United States238 Posts
On February 25 2014 04:19 Roynalf wrote: I am talking large numbers like from 4 to 8 reapers, they can just dive for queens and kill them and then retreat and heal Are sending your first ovie to their spawn location to start witht? Except on 4 player maps you should be able to see two rax and immediately react with a 1 spine at each base and a few extra lings and proceed as normal. Maybe post a replay and we can take a look at what happened? | ||
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TheCzarOfAll
United States170 Posts
On February 25 2014 04:30 mooseman1710 wrote: so i know this is an old question but i cant seem to find the answer to it. in zvz when i open 15 pool what is the best response to 10pool? with and without gas? do i pull drones initially to help fight lings? I'm Diamond league, maybe this will help. I would drone drill until you can build Lings of your own. His lings should arrive just before your pool finishes, so you shouldn't have to wait long. If you can trap some lings with your drones, great. Otherwise, just try to buy time until your lings come out. If he's got gas, try to figure out if he's going for Banelings or speed. If he's getting banelings, try to get a spine and attack with all your lings when he tries to morph them. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
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mooseman1710
United States153 Posts
im talking about my natural hatchery. not fighting in my main mineral line. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On February 25 2014 07:30 Mahtasooma wrote: How viable is it in the lategame to just sacrifice all 75 drones and remax on pure army instead of atttack twich with 125 army supply? 200 Zerg army supply should win far more convincingly than two times 125, no? If you lose however, there's no coming back, obviously... Bad idea, keep atleast 30 drones once you have a good bank. Because generally speaking (outside of slow swarmhost play) the toss/terran army will trade more effectively so you need the remax to kill him. Often the game will continue on after the 200/200 fight. I have had games where I end up building extra drones at 30 minutes because the game keeps going. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On February 25 2014 04:30 mooseman1710 wrote: so i know this is an old question but i cant seem to find the answer to it. in zvz when i open 15 pool what is the best response to 10pool? with and without gas? do i pull drones initially to help fight lings? When you go 15p16h15ovie and then see that he's moving out with lings, save larva and build 2 set of lings when pool finishes. Follow it up with a queen and then make lings as soon as you get larva. When your first 4 lings pop his lings are attacking your natural, so pull 5-6 drones together with your 4 lings and defend your expansion. At this point it's all about micro, he can't win a straight up fight if neither player fucks up their micro. Be careful when his 4th set of lings arrive, pull back a bit until your third set of lings come down. Keep your pulled drones and all the lings you made in front of your expansion and when your queen finishes, inject and then move it down to your natural. When your queen arrives at the natural, you've held, and the drones you've used can start mining at the natural. The most crucial part in defending this is to not engage in a bad position when you're defending with drones. If he gets a concave on your units and gets a few more attacks off, you'll quickly lose all your units, so focus on spreading your units in a line and reposition depending on his movements. Also keep track of how many lings have arrived at your base and if he's rallying more and if he's expanding behind it. He shouldn't really make more than 10-12 lings so after you've made 4 sets of lings you should be able to go back to droning and continue the game. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On February 24 2014 16:50 ThePastor wrote: Proleague - http://www.youtube.com/user/ESportsTV GSL - http://www.twitch.tv/gsl IEM - http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/ WCS AM - http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/ WCS EU - http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/WCS Europe http://clash.gg/vods/ - Spoiler free site That's fantastic, thank you! | ||
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mooseman1710
United States153 Posts
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
I know there was a thread like this comparing bos with pros and cons, but that´s not what im looking for. I'd like a safe bo that can win me macro games on ladder till masters league, I dont care what corners pros are cutting. What do you guys usually do? | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On February 25 2014 22:16 DjayEl wrote: In ZvZ is 15 pool 15 hatch the only way to hold early pools, compared to say a hatch first build, or is it still possible to defend? I feel like going pool first leaves me much more vulnerable to 2 base ling all ins. Is it just a rock paper scissors thing or is there a "safe" way to do things whithout dying to later greedy play? I know there was a thread like this comparing bos with pros and cons, but that´s not what im looking for. I'd like a safe bo that can win me macro games on ladder till masters league, I dont care what corners pros are cutting. What do you guys usually do? I always 15p in ZvZ, and I've never noticed me getting behind in eco just because of that (master league). It's more of a larva timing difference, like the 15h player will have a larva advantage after first 2 injects pop and can make a decent timing with lings at that point if they went early gas. If you want to play safe every ZvZ, just do 15 pool then 15 or 16 hatchery, and you'll be fine. Defending 2 base all ins is still possible with pool first, you can still go 4 queens and a spine if you want, or go for a quick tumor and wall off. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On February 25 2014 18:47 KelsierSC wrote: This current metagame of building 10 or more hellions and going for the 3rd base of the zerg is totally fucking me, it seems that if the terran is even remotely careful with his hellions he just fucks me, anyone got any advice? If you scout that he is going more then 6 hellions you can throw a roach warren down. One roach warren + 3-4 roaches will not set you back that far. The other option is just constantly produce queens from your natural. I have noticed soulkey and jaedong often do this. Make queens from natural until all threat is gone. Once it is gone they are used for creep/heal/defense. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On February 25 2014 22:16 DjayEl wrote: In ZvZ is 15 pool 15 hatch the only way to hold early pools, compared to say a hatch first build, or is it still possible to defend? I feel like going pool first leaves me much more vulnerable to 2 base ling all ins. Is it just a rock paper scissors thing or is there a "safe" way to do things whithout dying to later greedy play? I know there was a thread like this comparing bos with pros and cons, but that´s not what im looking for. I'd like a safe bo that can win me macro games on ladder till masters league, I dont care what corners pros are cutting. What do you guys usually do? I do not believe there is much of a difference between 15p and 15h. Your gas is slightly behind and your injects are slightly out of sync. But you are so equivalent that it is really negligible. In saying that, I open 15h every game, (high diamond in KR). 6/7/8 pools are all holdable with good micro and emergency management (I am not exceptionally good at this but it is doable cause I do it some times lol). 10 pool pressures are fine, you will often lose your natural but you will generally have speed before him leading into a lead later. 10 pool gas builds can be deadly, especially baneling versions. If you are wanting to go 15h you can always drone scout @ 10 and then throw a pool early just incase. Pool will make your speed like 15-20 seconds later then with a 15h. It is a small price to pay. If you think that a speedling all in might be coming you can throw a bnest down with your first 50 gas and then get speed after. Means you cannot be aggressive and occasionally your opponent (if smart) will just expand and mass drone. However, you will be safe! | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On February 26 2014 03:17 ThePastor wrote: If you scout that he is going more then 6 hellions you can throw a roach warren down. One roach warren + 3-4 roaches will not set you back that far. The other option is just constantly produce queens from your natural. I have noticed soulkey and jaedong often do this. Make queens from natural until all threat is gone. Once it is gone they are used for creep/heal/defense. Thanks man I think I will try the queen idea | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
If you want to play safe every ZvZ, just do 15 pool then 15 or 16 hatchery, and you'll be fine. Defending 2 base all ins is still possible with pool first, you can still go 4 queens and a spine if you want, or go for a quick tumor and wall off. That's what I am struggling to do right now, win vs these all ins consistently. I've tried the tumor to wall off and it works fine, but I wonder how much larvae disadvantage it gives me, knowing that I went pool first on top of that? I can't always rule out the all in before putting in the tumor, so it would be more a a default safety net? Pool will make your speed like 15-20 seconds later then with a 15h. It is a small price to pay. If you think that a speedling all in might be coming you can throw a bnest down with your first 50 gas and then get speed after. Means you cannot be aggressive and occasionally your opponent (if smart) will just expand and mass drone. However, you will be safe! I got a question for you: il you say there is almost no tangible advantage to hatch first but you sill die to early pools, why do you do that :p I mean, I know you can beat bad early poolers, but what about that of the same skill level? Reading your post one can conclude pool first would be the best bet, but still you dont do it :D Another credit I give to the hatch first is, if I see my opponent is greedy or plays no gas, I can just be greedy as hell and tech lair faster due to the earlier gas... | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On February 26 2014 17:35 DjayEl wrote: I got a question for you: il you say there is almost no tangible advantage to hatch first but you sill die to early pools, why do you do that :p I mean, I know you can beat bad early poolers, but what about that of the same skill level? Reading your post one can conclude pool first would be the best bet, but still you dont do it :D Another credit I give to the hatch first is, if I see my opponent is greedy or plays no gas, I can just be greedy as hell and tech lair faster due to the earlier gas... I find the way the gas lines up and queen injects coming out together just makes for a smoother build. Non-tangible is probably a bit to strong a word to use. It isn't like you get 3 extra drones or an extra inject, but you gain other advantages. I enjoy 15h/16p/16g because as you say, it often puts the ball in your own court. You can decide to be aggressive or passive, greedy or not. I lose to early pools mainly because my micro sucks. My macro and mechanics are generally good. My micro is often terrible, I make horrible micro decisions and is something I have to work on. Playing from NZL to Korea makes for fairly bad latency, but to be honest latency is only a part. I just need to practice more. One of the reasons I always hatch first is that I want to be forced into dealing with early pools to learn how to defend against them, I can go 15p and pick up fairly easy wins against early pools. I have found since I decided to only 15h that my micro is improving....albeit slowly. | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
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