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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
http://www.gosubuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvt/innovations-marinehellion-expand/ this is the build I'm talking about, but I wanted to see if I could get in hellbat drops after the marine/hellion push, I haven't really found a good timing, I think I need a 2nd gas, but I didn't find a place to put in the armory. Anyone? | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On June 10 2013 13:20 KingofGods wrote: My goal for next season is to keep my average unspent resources below 900. Right now I hover around the 1100-1200 mark. Some games I do well by having it under 500 while other games it goes up to 2-3000. It's mostly my tvz that it goes up to 2-3000 but ironically it's my highest winning matchup. I just max out with 3-3 so quickly with mmm and I just don't lose that many units when fighting lol. I suppose I could make 30 or so raxes but that seems extremely inefficient and there is never enough room inside my base anyways. Making 10+ orbitals wouldn't be that bad I guess but again they will have to be outside my base and I don't want to do something like that just for the sake of doing it to keep my resources down. I usually stop making SCVs when I have my 3rd up and roughly 60-70 SCVs. Any tips on keeping average unspent resources down? I watch pros do it and I am so jealous. Here are a couple of my most recent games TvZ: http://drop.sc/341244 TvP: http://drop.sc/341245 (ate so many storms t_t) Do you understand the goal of your TvZ BO(innovations one)? If you go early 3CC you need to make it land BEFORE 10 mins, so you can take advantege of the mules and the extra SCVs.Usually 6 hellions+2 mines allow you to defend this base IF the enemy is going heavy speedlings in the beginning. The bunker in the natural must be done at 20 supply and you must Wall much earlier.Check the BO once again and try to do it EXACTLY as it is,if not you will be always denied as in this game. You didnt see the roach push coming.Why? You got 6 hellions chilling at his posible 4th base with the Xel Naga towers empty and the lings dead.Go and poke and check the 3rd.If there is no saturation, maybe all in is incoming and SCAN arround 9 min mark the main or natural to see the posible tech. In this game you would see both Roach Warren and Nydus Worm in main if you would scout...The Starport was TOO LATE. Try to make it much earlier and build at least ONE Viking to kill spreaded overlords.This will reveal you as well if there are mutas in the game.You need him before 8 minutes. When engae as you din at 15 min trying to defend your 3rd, try to kite the enemys army to the position where widow mines are and then go back again and kill the rest of the army.You are not using WMs at their all power and not having 3rd at this point of the game usually makes you lose the game vs Zerg. This BO supposly allows you to be maxed at 15 min and you must go out to kill the Zergs 4th or maybe the 3rd while droping somewhere(main or natural). You got so much money because you are not trading well your income.Make a lot of units as early as posible and GO OUT and DO something with them. Send two drops WHILE killing creep or attacking the 4th with your main army.You will see your army diyng and will NEED to spend the money.If you dont feel you need a 4th base to be able to keep making units,this is because you are making not enough of them OR arent doing nothing with them,which allows your enemy to tech to BLs or Ultralisks and take bases and spread creep free.This guy would never ever be able to win the game making only roaches against 3-3 bio. Will check the TvP. In this game you did pretty bad with your economy. The DT only killed 4 workers,but your were at only 35 hitting the 10 min mark.You need 50 or 45+,if not,you are too behind on eco.You are not making SCVs with the frequecy you need,so focus on it and try to improve it. You need to scout the Protoss for 3rd base. The reaper scout was soo good.You was able to see the DTs incoming,but allowed him to go past your Wall in the natural.Send marine or another reaper to check if the Protoss is going 2 base all in or is taking 3rd. I see you are using the "Demuslims +1 attack" BO,but you didnt execute it well.Go and check the Day9s vod and try to understand the goal of this build. Dont go and drop blindly,because in higher leagues,there will be observer and stalkers will wait for you killing both medivacs free,while the guy is taking the 3rd so easy. Once again you got issues with the map control.You are going bio,so you MUST got the map control.Move out at 10 min poking the natural,not allowing him take 3rd scaring him with being dropped or sniped the natural/3rd WHILE taking your 3rd. This was late,but not so much.It need to be landed at 12:30 and fully saturated with SCVs transfer from natural/main. As you can see the 3-3 was too late because of the late 3rd.You NEED those geysers to continue upgrading and make ghosts.Why no the ghost cloak? You need this upgrade too as son as the energy research is done.How do you know he is going ONLY the HT tech? He could perfectly go for 3 robo and got ton of Collosi attacking you killing everything and would never be able to defend.Scan or send some unit(stimmed marine) to check his 3rd or natural to identify his units composition to be prepared. The first engagement was pretty bad.You eat all the storms. Thats why you need the ghost.Cloak them and send them in front to snipe or EMP the HTs an then engage,stim and begin to kite the enemy,while maing units home.You need at least 7 rax and Demuslim says he is OK with only 11... You need 4th base before 20 min as well and the gas there.You realised too late that in the 3rd the geysers were not taken. Last engagement: You see his 4th on the left side,but decided to attack the natural?? Why? If he would better player,you would lose there. He wasnt controlling his HTs well enough.You mission as BIO player is to expand while denyig the enemy to do the same.Go and snipe the 4th while drop in the main.Make the Protoss Split his army with your speedvacs and you will be able to snipe lot of tech in his main and pylons as well as expansions. We must understand that in lower leagues we are not winning because we are better tan our enemy.We are winnin because we are less bad at understanding the game, macroing,microing and executing the BO. Please check the vod and be aware of your goals with the BO and try to execute it EXACTLY. | ||
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A Wild Sosd
Australia421 Posts
On June 10 2013 19:44 Chaggi wrote: I've been wanting to experiment with Innovation's Marine/Hellion (the one against MVP in G2 of the RO4) and was wondering if anyone's squeezed an armory -> hellbat after the initial push with the marines/hellions? http://www.gosubuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvt/innovations-marinehellion-expand/ this is the build I'm talking about, but I wanted to see if I could get in hellbat drops after the marine/hellion push, I haven't really found a good timing, I think I need a 2nd gas, but I didn't find a place to put in the armory. Anyone? Go 12 or 13 gas maybe and drop the armory with the starport? | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On June 10 2013 06:14 Marathi wrote: How could I have handled this game better? http://drop.sc/341173 I open for fast cloakshee into my normal 1/1/1 allin, normally I get 2 cloakshees but after my scan I spot the hellbats and reactor on starport so I cancel my 2nd banshee and begin to get vikings out. I thought I had enough army to deal with his drop, 2 vikings, a tank (or two?) and about 8-10 marines. Aside from my army being a bit poorly positioned for the incoming drop I don't really know what else I could've done aside from building a bunker near mineral line as stated in OP (only just read that now that I have finally played vs fast hellbat drops). I think I should've just ran my SCVs away instead of using them to repair my tanks as I lost a lot this way >< Any other big errors that I made or tips that could help me deal with this better in future? Next time go and scan the enemy at 6:30 mark.You would be able to see the armory and identify the incomming hellbat drop.Make viking instead of banshee and spread marines and the unsieged tank near your mineral line.The hellbat drop is the best harass in TvT for now and do much more damage than cloak banshee.Make a turret in the mineral line as well and be prepared to pull workers as soon as posible. This is not "fast cloakshee" build. If you want the banshee the earliest posible go for gas first.Check some Demuslimd Vods and you will have it before the hellbats in your base. Any movement of SCVs being together is a huge mistake against Hellbats. Repairing the tank only allowed him to kill them easily. Try to execute the BO better and learn some not so "allinish" BO,because you will never improve only going all in every game. | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On June 10 2013 19:44 Chaggi wrote: I've been wanting to experiment with Innovation's Marine/Hellion (the one against MVP in G2 of the RO4) and was wondering if anyone's squeezed an armory -> hellbat after the initial push with the marines/hellions? http://www.gosubuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvt/innovations-marinehellion-expand/ this is the build I'm talking about, but I wanted to see if I could get in hellbat drops after the marine/hellion push, I haven't really found a good timing, I think I need a 2nd gas, but I didn't find a place to put in the armory. Anyone? Hey, I seen INoVation do a variation of his 15 Gas build pretty much every TvT he played, that allowed him to get hellbats and be pretty safe against early pressure. From what I recall, you start the same way as you would going into the build you linked above, however there are a couple of small changes INoVation does. Firstly, I have seen him go up to 4 marines before putting the reactor on the barracks, I guess this depends on how safe you want to feel vs early (reaper?) pressure. So you get an expo and a reactor/factory as per usual, when the factory is about halfway done, you add Gas (2). Straight after factory, you build an armory, and a starport closely after. INoVation makes x2 Hellion --> x2 Mine from the factory, before going into Hellbat/Medivac production. You then add an early 3rd/Factories/Infrastructure as your income permits, Tank production starts around 10-11minutes if I'm not mistaken. | ||
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Flash3894
3 Posts
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Marathi
298 Posts
On June 10 2013 20:41 Dvriel wrote: Next time go and scan the enemy at 6:30 mark.You would be able to see the armory and identify the incomming hellbat drop.Make viking instead of banshee and spread marines and the unsieged tank near your mineral line.The hellbat drop is the best harass in TvT for now and do much more damage than cloak banshee.Make a turret in the mineral line as well and be prepared to pull workers as soon as posible. This is not "fast cloakshee" build. If you want the banshee the earliest posible go for gas first.Check some Demuslimd Vods and you will have it before the hellbats in your base. Any movement of SCVs being together is a huge mistake against Hellbats. Repairing the tank only allowed him to kill them easily. Try to execute the BO better and learn some not so "allinish" BO,because you will never improve only going all in every game. Ok thanks for the tips. I switched from 12 gas to 13 because I found I didn't have the marine numbers necessary to deal with early reaper pressure. I only allin TvT because I find fighting with or against large tank numbers very boring and very time consuming. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
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CapTanObviOs
United States52 Posts
On June 11 2013 05:59 awakenx wrote: Whoopee! Just lost to another 2 base colossus all-in, and I realized why I always seem to get caught off guard - I've been playing this long and don't actually know what the timing for the third is for Protoss. Exactly when is the average time for Protoss to build their third? And how can you distinguish a 2 base colo all-in apart from a standard colossus transition to secure 3 bases, especially when the Protoss is active with stalkers to deny scouting? This isn't addressed in the OP (unless I need new glasses or if I should just take a break), and it'd be great to hear an answer, because I'm tired of losing to this all-in. The third of a protoss, generally if he does not 2-base allin, is anywhere between 12-15 minutes, depending on how much pressure you have applied. You should be very active around the map, and leave a few marines to check the third timing. | ||
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BobMcJohnson
France2916 Posts
When transitioning into mech after expanding (either after reaper expand or marine/reactor expand or 14CC, depending on the map) and assuming that I scout no all-in coming my way: -When do you get your Starport/Armory? -When do you get your 3rd/4th gas? -How many Factories do you aim to get on 2 and 3 bases? (and with which addons?) | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
On June 11 2013 06:17 CapTanObviOs wrote: The third of a protoss, generally if he does not 2-base allin, is anywhere between 12-15 minutes, depending on how much pressure you have applied. You should be very active around the map, and leave a few marines to check the third timing. Hm, maybe I should ask a better question, because usually by the time the protoss is supposed to get their third their all-in already pretty much hits. I want to know what are the telltale signs that Protoss is not aiming for a 3rd and is trying to kill you with a 2 base timing push/all-in. That's probably what's been bothering me lately rather than 1 base all-ins. | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On June 11 2013 07:26 awakenx wrote: Hm, maybe I should ask a better question, because usually by the time the protoss is supposed to get their third their all-in already pretty much hits. I want to know what are the telltale signs that Protoss is not aiming for a 3rd and is trying to kill you with a 2 base timing push/all-in. That's probably what's been bothering me lately rather than 1 base all-ins. Try to be in front of his base at 10 min poking and sacring him with drop while taking your 3rd. If you see too much stuff chasing you to your base, go back while making 3-4 bunkers.At this timing you should ALWAYS be ahead on supply,so you only need the bunkers to hold the all in. | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On June 11 2013 06:57 BobMcJohnson wrote: I'm having a hard time figuring out a solid build order when going mech in TvT/TvZ. When transitioning into mech after expanding (either after reaper expand or marine/reactor expand or 14CC, depending on the map) and assuming that I scout no all-in coming my way: -When do you get your Starport/Armory? -When do you get your 3rd/4th gas? -How many Factories do you aim to get on 2 and 3 bases? (and with which addons?) Go and search the ForGG BO for TvT mech and for TvZ, any kind of openning is good, but actually the quick hellbat drop will allow you to have early armory,so try to do it while transition into mech. No matter when you expand,the momento you take a base,take the gases immediatly. 2 factories with reactor and 4 with lab should be enough on 3 bases. Only 4, 1 R and 3 Lab on 2 bases.The starport as son as posible,so you can kill spreaded overlords or incoming drops. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On June 11 2013 07:26 awakenx wrote: Hm, maybe I should ask a better question, because usually by the time the protoss is supposed to get their third their all-in already pretty much hits. I want to know what are the telltale signs that Protoss is not aiming for a 3rd and is trying to kill you with a 2 base timing push/all-in. That's probably what's been bothering me lately rather than 1 base all-ins. read this lquipedia It generally says u will see more gateways beeing build then usual before the 3rd is taken (liquidpedia says 8, but it can be less or more). 2 collosi isnt scary but with the 8 gateways behind it, it is scary. When u move out, poke, harras just to get some info what hes aiming for. When u spot around 8 gateways being built (in total) before a 3rd and a robo bay with even the first collisi out, u know its comming. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
edit: liquipedia is awesome  | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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S7EFEN
86 Posts
TvP Macro Game I felt like I was doing okay midgame (SG caught me off guard but I didn't die at all), first engage went well I think but next few went terribly. I think I didn't build enough hellbats so the first few storms kinda owned me? Could I have justified a second factor? Or just earlier/more hellbats? Also the later game engages I died because I was balled up right? I feel like I'm getting a bit better but still need to work on engaging. Also, ghosts were late but I think I lost by then. | ||
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
On June 11 2013 10:05 KingofGods wrote: Do you even need 6 geysers? I find even when I go 3-4 vikings per cycle 5 geysers is more than enough. I'll add on more gas if and when I need ghosts. you need 6 geysers tvp. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + It's been linked a couple of times already but http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-583-demuslim-tvp/ EDIT: As in, about the same as a regular reaper FE/CC first or worse? | ||
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