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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On June 11 2013 10:05 KingofGods wrote:
Do you even need 6 geysers? I find even when I go 3-4 vikings per cycle 5 geysers is more than enough. I'll add on more gas if and when I need ghosts.
Problems is double upgrades/vikings/marauders and it hits around 12 minutes with 3 collisi = alot of vikings. All gasexpensive, u wont have enough gas around 12 minutes on 2 bases for ideal number of vikings, double/triple upgrades and marauderproduction. Ofcourse, once u reach your ideal composition later then 12 minutes, u can cut gas, but on 3 bases i never have enough gas for double starport/rax/triple upgrades/ghosts.
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Hey folks!
I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward.
Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything.
His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game.
Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition?
He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think.
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On June 11 2013 15:10 Type|NarutO wrote:
Hey folks!
I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward.
Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything.
His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game.
Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition?
He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think.
I might be wrong here but maybe you could have used more vikings. Did all of his collosus die during the battle? I would say upgrades for you are less important in that circumstance since the battle is very polar with him having +3 attack and almost all of his dps in collosus. Maybe a little more viking heavy and an armor upgrade on the vikings?
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Canada1218 Posts
Anytime my opponent has a stargate I will attack through the front door.well before a 200/200 engagement. Well, I attack well before 200/200 regardless of my opponents composition lol. But yeah, if he is using phoenixes and cannons to defend drops then his standing army will be fairly weak, opening up an even bigger timing window than usual.
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On June 11 2013 15:35 Carmine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:10 Type|NarutO wrote:
Hey folks!
I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward.
Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything.
His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game.
Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition?
He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think. I might be wrong here but maybe you could have used more vikings. Did all of his collosus die during the battle? I would say upgrades for you are less important in that circumstance since the battle is very polar with him having +3 attack and almost all of his dps in collosus. Maybe a little more viking heavy and an armor upgrade on the vikings?
Not even half of his colossus died. he had 8-10 colossus and at least 20 phoenix. I had 16 vikings but was maxed out. If I switch to all-air, he can probably switch to all ground and win. Well, I think figuring out beforehand and doing something in the first place should be the goal-_- meh.
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On June 11 2013 15:57 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:35 Carmine wrote:On June 11 2013 15:10 Type|NarutO wrote:
Hey folks!
I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward.
Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything.
His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game.
Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition?
He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think. I might be wrong here but maybe you could have used more vikings. Did all of his collosus die during the battle? I would say upgrades for you are less important in that circumstance since the battle is very polar with him having +3 attack and almost all of his dps in collosus. Maybe a little more viking heavy and an armor upgrade on the vikings? Not even half of his colossus died. he had 8-10 colossus and at least 20 phoenix. I had 16 vikings but was maxed out. If I switch to all-air, he can probably switch to all ground and win. Well, I think figuring out beforehand and doing something in the first place should be the goal-_- meh.
Please, post the replay. Still dont understand how did you allow him to got maxed on Stargate Collosi.No drops? Not even tried to cancel his 3rd? Go mass marauders+Vikings,this should be enough to stop the "Collossi-Phoenix" combo...
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On June 11 2013 16:25 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:57 Type|NarutO wrote:On June 11 2013 15:35 Carmine wrote:On June 11 2013 15:10 Type|NarutO wrote:
Hey folks!
I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward.
Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything.
His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game.
Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition?
He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think. I might be wrong here but maybe you could have used more vikings. Did all of his collosus die during the battle? I would say upgrades for you are less important in that circumstance since the battle is very polar with him having +3 attack and almost all of his dps in collosus. Maybe a little more viking heavy and an armor upgrade on the vikings? Not even half of his colossus died. he had 8-10 colossus and at least 20 phoenix. I had 16 vikings but was maxed out. If I switch to all-air, he can probably switch to all ground and win. Well, I think figuring out beforehand and doing something in the first place should be the goal-_- meh. Please, post the replay. Still dont understand how did you allow him to got maxed on Stargate Collosi.No drops? Not even tried to cancel his 3rd? Go mass marauders+Vikings,this should be enough to stop the "Collossi-Phoenix" combo...
I was asking for general advice against that composition. I don't think with the suggestions you make, you - first of all - have ever encountered phoenix/colossus nor can I believe you are actually Terran on a good level. I explained I opened up with reaper into mine drop and followed up with hellbat drops. The options you have are a very fast timing with 5 barracks (allin) or 3 barracks and 3rd base and still do pressure. It hits right when 2 colossi enter the field or right before the 2nd. I hit that timing but he defended it with timewarp + good control and photon overcharge. He did scout all the time with hallucination and had phoenixes behind it (real ones). Drops are useless against phoenix composition. You will lose your medivacs and deal minimal damage vs photon overcharge and a few units because phoenix can lift your stuff.
Maybe actual advice instead of "SHOULD WIN" would be good, because I had tons of vikings and a very big bio ball to support.
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Any maps that I should definitely veto as a bio player?
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On June 11 2013 16:44 A Wild Sosd wrote:
Any maps that I should definitely veto as a bio player?
Akilon in my opinion. Its very hard against a competent mech player. BelShir isn't really good either.
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On June 11 2013 16:50 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 16:44 A Wild Sosd wrote:
Any maps that I should definitely veto as a bio player? Akilon in my opinion. Its very hard against a competent mech player. BelShir isn't really good either.
I really like Akilon vs P and Z though and I guess belshir could go.
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On June 11 2013 10:20 S7EFEN wrote:http://drop.sc/341473TvP Macro Game I felt like I was doing okay midgame (SG caught me off guard but I didn't die at all), first engage went well I think but next few went terribly. I think I didn't build enough hellbats so the first few storms kinda owned me? Could I have justified a second factor? Or just earlier/more hellbats? Also the later game engages I died because I was balled up right? I feel like I'm getting a bit better but still need to work on engaging. Also, ghosts were late but I think I lost by then.
You made the ebay home,why NO turret??? Dont build anything if you wont use it.Why all the defenses in the natural??? Your main was so exposed and you paid for it. You got enough marines(10) and one widow mine to be able to defend the Oracle harass.Next time put a widow mine and send 5 marines OR just build one turret and will be perfectly safe.You were lucky your enemy wasnt good enough and didnt profit the advantage and you were equal on workers.
15 mins and you didnt even try to forcé cancel on his 3rd or drop.Why? Being so passive allows the Protoss to tech free and amove you late game so easy.
Why did you build Ghost Academy? No ghosts and no upgrade at 18 mins??? You must make GA at 13-15min and begin the Eenrgy and Cloak upgrade as son as posible,while adding ghosts.You must understand,your enemy was pretty bad(51 probes on 3bases at 16min is almost gold level) and you didnt profit it. Make more drops and be more active,dont let him take the 3rd.
19:40. You lost the engagement because of lack of Ghosts/EMP and not dodging Storms.You cant just amove and wait the Protoss to die.Engage,stim and run kiting.
22:40. Lack of EMP on archons and no Vikings to kill the single Collossus.
25:00 Perfect EMPs, but no Vikings and the Collossi just killed everything and your army was not big enough.No medivacs???
Last engagement: Dont stim before the battle!!! Send ghosts in front to EMP and then stim kiting back,but anyways there were too few medivacs to heal and not enough Vikings to kill the Collossi.You need 3 per each Collosus.
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On June 11 2013 16:43 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 16:25 Dvriel wrote:On June 11 2013 15:57 Type|NarutO wrote:On June 11 2013 15:35 Carmine wrote:On June 11 2013 15:10 Type|NarutO wrote:
Hey folks!
I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward.
Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything.
His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game.
Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition?
He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think. I might be wrong here but maybe you could have used more vikings. Did all of his collosus die during the battle? I would say upgrades for you are less important in that circumstance since the battle is very polar with him having +3 attack and almost all of his dps in collosus. Maybe a little more viking heavy and an armor upgrade on the vikings? Not even half of his colossus died. he had 8-10 colossus and at least 20 phoenix. I had 16 vikings but was maxed out. If I switch to all-air, he can probably switch to all ground and win. Well, I think figuring out beforehand and doing something in the first place should be the goal-_- meh. Please, post the replay. Still dont understand how did you allow him to got maxed on Stargate Collosi.No drops? Not even tried to cancel his 3rd? Go mass marauders+Vikings,this should be enough to stop the "Collossi-Phoenix" combo... I was asking for general advice against that composition. I don't think with the suggestions you make, you - first of all - have ever encountered phoenix/colossus nor can I believe you are actually Terran on a good level. I explained I opened up with reaper into mine drop and followed up with hellbat drops. The options you have are a very fast timing with 5 barracks (allin) or 3 barracks and 3rd base and still do pressure. It hits right when 2 colossi enter the field or right before the 2nd. I hit that timing but he defended it with timewarp + good control and photon overcharge. He did scout all the time with hallucination and had phoenixes behind it (real ones). Drops are useless against phoenix composition. You will lose your medivacs and deal minimal damage vs photon overcharge and a few units because phoenix can lift your stuff. Maybe actual advice instead of "SHOULD WIN" would be good, because I had tons of vikings and a very big bio ball to support.
What is "Terran on a good level" for you? Master is not enough?
Well, you being so good, must know that 16 Vikings will never be enough to kill 8-10 Colossi quick enough,and if there are Phoenix, it makes it much harder. I wonder what his ground units were(only Colossi?), so you can think of what units to make. Ton of marines vs 8-10 Colossi and Phoenix to snipe the Vikings will never help. The EMP of possible ghosts will not be enough,but you need for sure LOT of Marauders to be able to resist the damage while doing lot of it to kill the enemy.Once the Colossi are dead,Phoenix alone are shit.
If the option of the drops fail try to forcé engagements at his natural or 3rd.
You are asking for a theorethical advice against mass Colossi+Phoenix.Whoever you ask will "theorycraft" and say: Mass Vikings+Marauders OR Tanks+Thor+Raven+PDD+Hellbats hehe
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On June 11 2013 17:57 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 16:43 Type|NarutO wrote:On June 11 2013 16:25 Dvriel wrote:On June 11 2013 15:57 Type|NarutO wrote:On June 11 2013 15:35 Carmine wrote:On June 11 2013 15:10 Type|NarutO wrote:
Hey folks!
I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward.
Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything.
His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game.
Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition?
He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think. I might be wrong here but maybe you could have used more vikings. Did all of his collosus die during the battle? I would say upgrades for you are less important in that circumstance since the battle is very polar with him having +3 attack and almost all of his dps in collosus. Maybe a little more viking heavy and an armor upgrade on the vikings? Not even half of his colossus died. he had 8-10 colossus and at least 20 phoenix. I had 16 vikings but was maxed out. If I switch to all-air, he can probably switch to all ground and win. Well, I think figuring out beforehand and doing something in the first place should be the goal-_- meh. Please, post the replay. Still dont understand how did you allow him to got maxed on Stargate Collosi.No drops? Not even tried to cancel his 3rd? Go mass marauders+Vikings,this should be enough to stop the "Collossi-Phoenix" combo... I was asking for general advice against that composition. I don't think with the suggestions you make, you - first of all - have ever encountered phoenix/colossus nor can I believe you are actually Terran on a good level. I explained I opened up with reaper into mine drop and followed up with hellbat drops. The options you have are a very fast timing with 5 barracks (allin) or 3 barracks and 3rd base and still do pressure. It hits right when 2 colossi enter the field or right before the 2nd. I hit that timing but he defended it with timewarp + good control and photon overcharge. He did scout all the time with hallucination and had phoenixes behind it (real ones). Drops are useless against phoenix composition. You will lose your medivacs and deal minimal damage vs photon overcharge and a few units because phoenix can lift your stuff. Maybe actual advice instead of "SHOULD WIN" would be good, because I had tons of vikings and a very big bio ball to support. What is "Terran on a good level" for you? Master is not enough? Well, you being so good, must know that 16 Vikings will never be enough to kill 8-10 Colossi quick enough,and if there are Phoenix, it makes it much harder. I wonder what his ground units were(only Colossi?), so you can think of what units to make. Ton of marines vs 8-10 Colossi and Phoenix to snipe the Vikings will never help. The EMP of possible ghosts will not be enough,but you need for sure LOT of Marauders to be able to resist the damage while doing lot of it to kill the enemy.Once the Colossi are dead,Phoenix alone are shit. If the option of the drops fail try to forcé engagements at his natural or 3rd. You are asking for a theorethical advice against mass Colossi+Phoenix.Whoever you ask will "theorycraft" and say: Mass Vikings+Marauders OR Tanks+Thor+Raven+PDD+Hellbats hehe
Terran on high level is very high master / grandmaster or prolevel. As I said, with my opening he got to his army without any chance from me doing very much about it. I was maxed out with 17-20 vikings, so my option was to waste scvs but the engagement happened before.
There are no 1.5 Terran units that can tank 9 colossus shots and even with viking attack upgrade and shifting through colossi, phoenix are insanely good vs vikings. Your bio at least in theory is good if you can spread and stim because he has very little support for colossus, but in a real game it will be locked down by a few forcefields and timewarp especially on belshire. If it would have been whirlwind or derelict I can pick a fight in a wide open area, on belshire I cannot.
If you say phoenix alone are shit, thats exactly the wrong approach. If you manage to kill the colossi and you only have very damaged bio left, phoenix will clear everything else with lifts, your marines I can guarantee will not survive the engagement, no matter your control.
Then the problem starts. You need bio and medivacs but also vikings again, and the trade you just took was a TRADE at best. I think the chances to beat down that composition start in the earlier stages aka pressuring and dropping before phoenix counts are high enough to shoot down medivacs early. But in THEORY yes, you are right. As I said I added Thors in WoL to rape phoenix, but not so easy once Protoss gets a good army running.
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On June 10 2013 19:44 Chaggi wrote:I've been wanting to experiment with Innovation's Marine/Hellion (the one against MVP in G2 of the RO4) and was wondering if anyone's squeezed an armory -> hellbat after the initial push with the marines/hellions? http://www.gosubuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvt/innovations-marinehellion-expand/this is the build I'm talking about, but I wanted to see if I could get in hellbat drops after the marine/hellion push, I haven't really found a good timing, I think I need a 2nd gas, but I didn't find a place to put in the armory. Anyone?
I use hellbat drop AND banshe after the first 6 marines/4 helion drop /push
YOu cant make expand that fast. you need second gas after the factory are halfway done.
while the stairport are in produktion, let the barrack make a etch lab, after the medievac are done, switch and make banshe whit cloak, and do armory. in case your opponent go fast hellbat drop, make 2 mines after the 4 helions, and hellbats after that. KEP youre one medievac alive so u can return and pick upp hellbats after. i got 65% winrate tvt
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how do i prevent my medivacs from accidentally picking up my bio when they are all in one hotkey? i just drop them when it happens, but it's irritating.
on a separate note, is it better to set medivacs to shift follow your bio, and then just control the bio? this way, you could get healing during the stutter step instead of having medivacs stutter doingnothing.
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Without being a very high level terran (only low-mid masters), but I do think the goal is to shut it down before he gets there. Luckily only twice or something I encounted a toss who had mass air (not just phoenix) + colossi, but I never managed to counter it. You need vikings against colossi, no ground units counter them (Yeah maybe in theory marauders, but add timewarps, possibly few voids, and even without forcefields I wouldn't want to try it).
Really a 'default' answer: But it looks to me like you scouted it much too late (probably because it is fairly unconventional), otherwise you could have made more vikings. You simply will need air dominance against colossi, which isn't trivial with pretty much every toss air countering terran air. In theory-craft mode that composition would be countered by battlecruisers, but not a switch I would make (even if you could get enough out in time, he can easily switch to tempests).
Ravens with good hits from SM would be nice, but he can micro those phoenix away (or worse, into your units), and phoenix really kill ravens fast. So then I would think that the only solution is just lots of vikings with ground support vs phoenix: Marines will probably get mowed down by colossi before they do much when he has many colossi. So thors indeed, fighting over missile turrets if possible, and you can also try to make a minefield, preferably while sniping his observers.
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On June 11 2013 19:06 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:57 Dvriel wrote:On June 11 2013 16:43 Type|NarutO wrote:On June 11 2013 16:25 Dvriel wrote:On June 11 2013 15:57 Type|NarutO wrote:On June 11 2013 15:35 Carmine wrote:On June 11 2013 15:10 Type|NarutO wrote:
Hey folks!
I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward.
Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything.
His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game.
Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition?
He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think. I might be wrong here but maybe you could have used more vikings. Did all of his collosus die during the battle? I would say upgrades for you are less important in that circumstance since the battle is very polar with him having +3 attack and almost all of his dps in collosus. Maybe a little more viking heavy and an armor upgrade on the vikings? Not even half of his colossus died. he had 8-10 colossus and at least 20 phoenix. I had 16 vikings but was maxed out. If I switch to all-air, he can probably switch to all ground and win. Well, I think figuring out beforehand and doing something in the first place should be the goal-_- meh. Please, post the replay. Still dont understand how did you allow him to got maxed on Stargate Collosi.No drops? Not even tried to cancel his 3rd? Go mass marauders+Vikings,this should be enough to stop the "Collossi-Phoenix" combo... I was asking for general advice against that composition. I don't think with the suggestions you make, you - first of all - have ever encountered phoenix/colossus nor can I believe you are actually Terran on a good level. I explained I opened up with reaper into mine drop and followed up with hellbat drops. The options you have are a very fast timing with 5 barracks (allin) or 3 barracks and 3rd base and still do pressure. It hits right when 2 colossi enter the field or right before the 2nd. I hit that timing but he defended it with timewarp + good control and photon overcharge. He did scout all the time with hallucination and had phoenixes behind it (real ones). Drops are useless against phoenix composition. You will lose your medivacs and deal minimal damage vs photon overcharge and a few units because phoenix can lift your stuff. Maybe actual advice instead of "SHOULD WIN" would be good, because I had tons of vikings and a very big bio ball to support. What is "Terran on a good level" for you? Master is not enough? Well, you being so good, must know that 16 Vikings will never be enough to kill 8-10 Colossi quick enough,and if there are Phoenix, it makes it much harder. I wonder what his ground units were(only Colossi?), so you can think of what units to make. Ton of marines vs 8-10 Colossi and Phoenix to snipe the Vikings will never help. The EMP of possible ghosts will not be enough,but you need for sure LOT of Marauders to be able to resist the damage while doing lot of it to kill the enemy.Once the Colossi are dead,Phoenix alone are shit. If the option of the drops fail try to forcé engagements at his natural or 3rd. You are asking for a theorethical advice against mass Colossi+Phoenix.Whoever you ask will "theorycraft" and say: Mass Vikings+Marauders OR Tanks+Thor+Raven+PDD+Hellbats hehe Terran on high level is very high master / grandmaster or prolevel. As I said, with my opening he got to his army without any chance from me doing very much about it. I was maxed out with 17-20 vikings, so my option was to waste scvs but the engagement happened before. There are no 1.5 Terran units that can tank 9 colossus shots and even with viking attack upgrade and shifting through colossi, phoenix are insanely good vs vikings. Your bio at least in theory is good if you can spread and stim because he has very little support for colossus, but in a real game it will be locked down by a few forcefields and timewarp especially on belshire. If it would have been whirlwind or derelict I can pick a fight in a wide open area, on belshire I cannot. If you say phoenix alone are shit, thats exactly the wrong approach. If you manage to kill the colossi and you only have very damaged bio left, phoenix will clear everything else with lifts, your marines I can guarantee will not survive the engagement, no matter your control. Then the problem starts. You need bio and medivacs but also vikings again, and the trade you just took was a TRADE at best. I think the chances to beat down that composition start in the earlier stages aka pressuring and dropping before phoenix counts are high enough to shoot down medivacs early. But in THEORY yes, you are right. As I said I added Thors in WoL to rape phoenix, but not so easy once Protoss gets a good army running.
The way it seems, its almost imposible, right?? Really cant see any solution, if not maybe some good EMPs on the Phoenix and hope it Works...Usually the T is supposed to be better in mid game and take advantego to compensate the late game Protoss power and if you fail...you lose.
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Russian Federation101 Posts
On June 11 2013 15:10 Type|NarutO wrote:
Hey folks!
I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward.
Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything.
His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game.
Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition?
He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think.
Genrally, when you see such composition you must prepare for it and make adjustments in your composition. In case he didn't reach critical mass with colosus then you can power through with marauder hellbat combo with addition of 6-10 vikings. In case he reached that stage you need to trade your bio and slowly switch to air composition mainly bc viking with couple of ghosts and later on add ravens. Mainly you have to keep him busy with your bio and deny 4th/5th base because if he will get them tempest transition with storms would be hard to deal with. So the general idea is to slowly replace your units with more cost efficient ones and you have to make sure to set up defence at the front of your base so that he won't try to bust you.
From my point of view, it's better to play mech on belshir due to small chokes you can abuse and lack of 6th/7th potential bases which lead to getting some death ball which would likely counter different compositions from protoss. Especially the one HTO Mario uses is really good.
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I wouldnt go mech. Im thinking u already got 2 reactored starports or more, so vikings which are good against both and thors which are good against both (but use them for the phoenixes first. This in combination with some marauders could work, right?
Well, i dont know for sure but im guessing it would. It feels ok and because ur on 4 bases is doable with the gascount.
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On June 11 2013 19:50 TRpredator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:10 Type|NarutO wrote:
Hey folks!
I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward.
Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything.
His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game.
Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition?
He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think. From my point of view, it's better to play mech on belshir due to small chokes you can abuse and lack of 6th/7th potential bases which lead to getting some death ball which would likely counter different compositions from protoss. Especially the one HTO Mario uses is really good.
Advicing mech in TvP as best option is already a bit weird. Advicing it against an air composition is really strange.
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