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On June 04 2014 08:03 Ottoman042 wrote: So I've been kind of struggling with TvP(50% plat). It seem like the only ways I can win is the good ol' medivac rush usually this hits when he has only 1 colossi(no range) and I can draw his army out of position and attack in two spots. Though I doubt this actually has a good winrate since a lot of my TvP are usually defend wins, 2gate proxy(always beat this), proxy oracle, blink all in.
In every situation you mentioned, you don't plan very far ahead into the late game. TvP lategame preparation is crucial to having a solid winrate; if you only worry about winning by defending a midgame push or winning with the first medivac push, and don't think of what happens next, you will most definitely not see a change in your winrate.
I only very rarely do scv allins, so I can't help you for the second part.
Ok, I pretty much win every tvp in your league vs 2base colosseus openings. If you cant do damage with your medivacs, go back and retain your army. Behind your 10min push, make a 3rd, a 2nd starport, be on 5-8 rax and get some upgrades. Pump vikings and bio, then pull everything you have with 20-30 scvs and amove for the victory. Evil laughter and imbatoss tears!
Just be sure he does not have storm yet...
Oh, and once I scouted an ugly greedy double forge+twilight opening, pulled scvs with my 2medivac push and won! 1-2 archons and nexus was not enough, muahahaha
On June 03 2014 16:38 Slydie wrote: Hi! I have been theory crafting a bit for myself about tvz, if you scout a quite fast 3rd and double evos, how strong can a helbat-bio 2base all-in be, and is this viable?
I was thinking something like this: NO 3rd CC NO ebays NO scv production after minimum (32+6 in gas?) Keep making helions from reactor factory As much bio as possible, 4-6 rax 2-4 medivacs (or not?) Armory ready right on timing and transform helis. Hit hard when it hurts the most, right before their 1-1?
I have a soultrain-like timing in mind, hitting so hard its not enough just to scout it, but of course it needs to be optimized and have good control.
the build i usually push with if im allin on a z's greed is: normal 12/12 reaper open into 2 base with reactor hellions and tech lab the rax like normal then drop 2 rax instead of cc get combat shield instead of stim and 2 reactors as soon as rax are done
use the hellions/reapers to harass/take watchtowers/kill creep and be annoying as usual while reactors are finishing up, and as soon as those reactors are done, start streaming constant marines/hellions across and BUILD ALOT OF SUPPLY DEPOTS. cause u crank alot of units fast u almost need 2 at a time at points. u are hard countered vs roaches but totally maul a ling queen defense.
my question: noticed polt always builds his first depots and rax at his ramp in all matchups. how does he benifit with this v T? it seems to me in most situations it would be better to have your rax built closer to your cc, esp vs 888 and proxy rauders no? what advantages/disadvantages are there to building a wall at your main ramp in TvT?
On June 03 2014 16:38 Slydie wrote: Hi! I have been theory crafting a bit for myself about tvz, if you scout a quite fast 3rd and double evos, how strong can a helbat-bio 2base all-in be, and is this viable?
I was thinking something like this: NO 3rd CC NO ebays NO scv production after minimum (32+6 in gas?) Keep making helions from reactor factory As much bio as possible, 4-6 rax 2-4 medivacs (or not?) Armory ready right on timing and transform helis. Hit hard when it hurts the most, right before their 1-1?
I have a soultrain-like timing in mind, hitting so hard its not enough just to scout it, but of course it needs to be optimized and have good control.
the build i usually push with if im allin on a z's greed is: normal 12/12 reaper open into 2 base with reactor hellions and tech lab the rax like normal then drop 2 rax instead of cc get combat shield instead of stim and 2 reactors as soon as rax are done
use the hellions/reapers to harass/take watchtowers/kill creep and be annoying as usual while reactors are finishing up, and as soon as those reactors are done, start streaming constant marines/hellions across and BUILD ALOT OF SUPPLY DEPOTS. cause u crank alot of units fast u almost need 2 at a time at points. u are hard countered vs roaches but totally maul a ling queen defense.
my question: noticed polt always builds his first depots and rax at his ramp in all matchups. how does he benifit with this v T? it seems to me in most situations it would be better to have your rax built closer to your cc, esp vs 888 and proxy rauders no? what advantages/disadvantages are there to building a wall at your main ramp in TvT?
One of the advantages of building the first depot at the ramp is intel if he tries to proxy something inside of your base, since you'll see the scv for sure. Far more importantly, though, a full wall prevents hellions from getting into your main, be it an early game poke with 1 or 2 hellions, a two-pronged attack with hellions at the front and a drop, or just general runbys throughout the game. At least those are the reasons *I* do it.
On June 03 2014 16:38 Slydie wrote: Hi! I have been theory crafting a bit for myself about tvz, if you scout a quite fast 3rd and double evos, how strong can a helbat-bio 2base all-in be, and is this viable?
I was thinking something like this: NO 3rd CC NO ebays NO scv production after minimum (32+6 in gas?) Keep making helions from reactor factory As much bio as possible, 4-6 rax 2-4 medivacs (or not?) Armory ready right on timing and transform helis. Hit hard when it hurts the most, right before their 1-1?
I have a soultrain-like timing in mind, hitting so hard its not enough just to scout it, but of course it needs to be optimized and have good control.
the build i usually push with if im allin on a z's greed is: normal 12/12 reaper open into 2 base with reactor hellions and tech lab the rax like normal then drop 2 rax instead of cc get combat shield instead of stim and 2 reactors as soon as rax are done
use the hellions/reapers to harass/take watchtowers/kill creep and be annoying as usual while reactors are finishing up, and as soon as those reactors are done, start streaming constant marines/hellions across and BUILD ALOT OF SUPPLY DEPOTS. cause u crank alot of units fast u almost need 2 at a time at points. u are hard countered vs roaches but totally maul a ling queen defense.
my question: noticed polt always builds his first depots and rax at his ramp in all matchups. how does he benifit with this v T? it seems to me in most situations it would be better to have your rax built closer to your cc, esp vs 888 and proxy rauders no? what advantages/disadvantages are there to building a wall at your main ramp in TvT?
One of the advantages of building the first depot at the ramp is intel if he tries to proxy something inside of your base, since you'll see the scv for sure. Far more importantly, though, a full wall prevents hellions from getting into your main, be it an early game poke with 1 or 2 hellions, a two-pronged attack with hellions at the front and a drop, or just general runbys throughout the game. At least those are the reasons *I* do it.
hmmm. maybe i just need to see a game where he holds 888/proxy rauder like that. seems to me i cant win unless my marines are protected by the scvs until there are atleast 3 marines
How do I stop an early Roach bust hitting around the 7.30 mark (Roach Warren goes down at 5.30)?
Currently, I open 1 rax FE into reactor on rax and then swap with a factory for some Hellion pressure. However, in this game, I just had a couple of bunkered Marines and 4 Hellions with 2 more on the way when it hit. I had a tech lab on the rax researching combat shield and had one Marauder out with another on the way. I was also building two more rax. I scouted the early Warren but did not really react to it. My bad. From my opening, what would have been the best way to handle this?
On June 06 2014 18:04 aZealot wrote: How do I stop an early Roach bust hitting around the 7.30 mark (Roach Warren goes down at 5.30)?
Currently, I open 1 rax FE into reactor on rax and then swap with a factory for some Hellion pressure. However, in this game, I just had a couple of bunkered Marines and 4 Hellions with 2 more on the way when it hit. I had a tech lab on the rax researching combat shield and had one Marauder out with another on the way. I was also building two more rax. I scouted the early Warren but did not really react to it. My bad. From my opening, what would have been the best way to handle this?
A replay would help.
If it's just roaches, you should be able to hold with mass repair. He will not have a good economy behind it so losing some SCVs for a hold is ok. Hellions can either counter or add extra dps from behind the bunker. Just put that marauder in the bunker and get the scvs there in time.
On June 06 2014 18:04 aZealot wrote: How do I stop an early Roach bust hitting around the 7.30 mark (Roach Warren goes down at 5.30)?
Currently, I open 1 rax FE into reactor on rax and then swap with a factory for some Hellion pressure. However, in this game, I just had a couple of bunkered Marines and 4 Hellions with 2 more on the way when it hit. I had a tech lab on the rax researching combat shield and had one Marauder out with another on the way. I was also building two more rax. I scouted the early Warren but did not really react to it. My bad. From my opening, what would have been the best way to handle this?
A replay would help.
If it's just roaches, you should be able to hold with mass repair. He will not have a good economy behind it so losing some SCVs for a hold is ok. Hellions can either counter or add extra dps from behind the bunker. Just put that marauder in the bunker and get the scvs there in time.
Thanks. I think I pulled too few svcs too late for repair and my Marauder was not in the bunker. I'll try that for next time.
Hey, I've noticed that sometimes reapers get to shoot while moving (at least the sound effect is played without the reaper actually stopping, don't know if it actually does damage). Does anybody know more about that? Would be cool to be able to get moving shot with a specific micro trick
On June 06 2014 20:47 Nimix wrote: Hey, I've noticed that sometimes reapers get to shoot while moving (at least the sound effect is played without the reaper actually stopping, don't know if it actually does damage). Does anybody know more about that? Would be cool to be able to get moving shot with a specific micro trick
From experience, it's when you try to cancel the attack backswing animation too fast; the Reaper fires only once (instead of twice) and thus you have the impression he shoots while moving.
For those of you terran doing well vs zerg, what's the general idea behind the matchup? I'm having a ridiculously hard time dealing with them. I'm at a mid masters level, haven't played in a while. I don't know whats the ideal unit composition and how to win vs them mid game. It seems like it's basically a game of attrition or build orders.
Myself I'm only diamond but feel pretty confident in my TvZ atm. I do Marine Hellbat, Marine widow mine, Marine tank, and mech depending on map.
Alterzim I always mech, unless I troll and do a pure marine (create roughly 20+ marines per cycle) but on alterzim I do 11 raxx 11 gas, 3 reapers into a BF hellion banshee push.
On frost I usually do a mine stim timming where I move out before stim complete and hits my opponent with stim, +1 and 2-3 widow mines, works pretty well in diamond ^^
and on king sejon station I usually play marine tank.
If you want more detailed BOs just send a PM or write here and I'll add replays/try to write down any BO you want
I think that the main thing vs Zerg is to keep them scouted in the early game so you don't lose to some heavy early pressure. Zerg almost have as many early pressure builds as protoss these days, but the good thing is that in general they are much easier to shut down as long as you get an early enough scout. After making sure you don't lose too much early on, as long as you are keeping up with your macro, you should be ok. The main focus should be on clearing creep and never taking fights on creep. Eventually you should get to a point where you can pressure their 4th base with a retreat path that is clear of creep allowing you to micro well vs zerglings and banelings and have some sort of splash damage so that you can take more efficient fights.
In terms of compositions, the two most common ones are Marine, Medivac, Hellbat, Thor (and eventually Marauder) or Marine Marauder, Medivac and Widow Mine. The compositions kinda overlap these days with mines sometimes mixed into hellbat heavy compositions and thors mixed into widow mine compositions. The usual 3-base set-up for both compositions is 8 barracks, 2 factorys and 1 starport.
As far as beating them in the mid-game, it is pretty difficult because of creep and the way Zerg's production works, so your best chance is to focus on denying/pressuring their 4th and starving them out. If you want to have easy early game wins then work on your 2 rax One build that seems to be gaining popularity these days is this early midgame timing with hellbats, medivacs and a few marines that flash used in proleague and in shoutcraft. I haven't yet learned the build myself, but it shouldn't be too hard to find the VODs on youtube.
Thanks. I think I pulled too few svcs too late for repair and my Marauder was not in the bunker. I'll try that for next time.
Edit/ Also, just to be clear. It was Roach/Ling.
Ah yes this just happened to me after I went cc first. I scouted it and made marauder/widow mine + an extra bunker, then proceeded to lose because the widow mines destroyed my scvs more than his army. Oops.
On June 09 2014 22:09 Goofinator wrote: I think that the main thing vs Zerg is to keep them scouted in the early game so you don't lose to some heavy early pressure. Zerg almost have as many early pressure builds as protoss these days, but the good thing is that in general they are much easier to shut down as long as you get an early enough scout. After making sure you don't lose too much early on, as long as you are keeping up with your macro, you should be ok. The main focus should be on clearing creep and never taking fights on creep. Eventually you should get to a point where you can pressure their 4th base with a retreat path that is clear of creep allowing you to micro well vs zerglings and banelings and have some sort of splash damage so that you can take more efficient fights.
In terms of compositions, the two most common ones are Marine, Medivac, Hellbat, Thor (and eventually Marauder) or Marine Marauder, Medivac and Widow Mine. The compositions kinda overlap these days with mines sometimes mixed into hellbat heavy compositions and thors mixed into widow mine compositions. The usual 3-base set-up for both compositions is 8 barracks, 2 factorys and 1 starport.
As far as beating them in the mid-game, it is pretty difficult because of creep and the way Zerg's production works, so your best chance is to focus on denying/pressuring their 4th and starving them out. If you want to have easy early game wins then work on your 2 rax One build that seems to be gaining popularity these days is this early midgame timing with hellbats, medivacs and a few marines that flash used in proleague and in shoutcraft. I haven't yet learned the build myself, but it shouldn't be too hard to find the VODs on youtube.
On June 09 2014 11:04 Dreamer.T wrote: For those of you terran doing well vs zerg, what's the general idea behind the matchup? I'm having a ridiculously hard time dealing with them. I'm at a mid masters level, haven't played in a while. I don't know whats the ideal unit composition and how to win vs them mid game. It seems like it's basically a game of attrition or build orders.
I'm doing my best at TvZ atm, at high masters. The way I see it the matchup is winnable at this level both with a solid macro style and with "tricky" builds like 2 rax, 2 medivac hellbat push/rauder banshee hellbat, or whatever other aggressive combination you can think of. Personally I play 2 reaper straight up macro games every game and I do fine. The key is not to panic or feel overwhelmed by the zerg army, and maintain pressure. Try to clear creep constantly on all fronts, recognize if the zerg army has a large baneling count at a specific time and only fight VERY favorably (off creep/in chokes/ well spread). Personally I try to drop often and attack multiple angles while expanding aggressively and ultimately whittle down the zerg enough to deal a killing blow. If you fight his army head-on make sure you have some rauders/thors at the front to tank and widow mines as well. Personally I like the polt style of high widow mine production, and then constant thor production at 3+ bases. An important timing to note is when you have 3-3 and the zerg is still on 2-2. If the game went decently, and you applied constant pressure without making any big mistakes then you should have 3-3 before the zerg. If your macro is good this is a good time to apply head-on pressure and take cost-efficient engagements until they die. Also, mech is clearly viable as showcased most recently by Flash vs Life in the Shoutcast cup.
If you feel you got the mechanics for it, or you want to get them - keep playing a macro style forcing yourself to apply pressure at multiple angles and out-multitasking the zerg. If not - practice the variety of very effective aggressive builds or play mech to bank on the fact that zergs are not as good versus it (I don't play mech so I don't really know if this is true).
I've been struggling a lot in TvP lately (random diamond EU player here, worst of my MUs and very hard to practice on ladder considering my unranked MMR is massively high for some reason) and have about 20% winrate with everything else being 50-70%
Any general tips on how I could use skills from TvT/TvZ to improve?
I also have a replay here which at the time thought was a lot closer than it was. Not really sure what I could have done better, maybe more drops? http://drop.sc/382572 (Was attempting Polt's TvP ghostless style, hence the lack of ghosts) (was also on NA so some slight lag on my end)
Edit: also, any good places for pro replays? I use sc2win at the moment but it doesn't have any replay packs since IEM cologne. Are there any better sites or aren't there any more being released just yet?
How do you win vs a Toss on Alterzim when he 2 base Zealot Archon (just enough to hold any attacks, he's not allin) into 3 base. I can't do any damage because he can turtle so hard vs drops. SCV Pull isn't possible vs storm.
On June 09 2014 11:04 Dreamer.T wrote: For those of you terran doing well vs zerg, what's the general idea behind the matchup? I'm having a ridiculously hard time dealing with them. I'm at a mid masters level, haven't played in a while. I don't know whats the ideal unit composition and how to win vs them mid game. It seems like it's basically a game of attrition or build orders.
I'm doing my best at TvZ atm, at high masters. The way I see it the matchup is winnable at this level both with a solid macro style and with "tricky" builds like 2 rax, 2 medivac hellbat push/rauder banshee hellbat, or whatever other aggressive combination you can think of. Personally I play 2 reaper straight up macro games every game and I do fine. The key is not to panic or feel overwhelmed by the zerg army, and maintain pressure. Try to clear creep constantly on all fronts, recognize if the zerg army has a large baneling count at a specific time and only fight VERY favorably (off creep/in chokes/ well spread). Personally I try to drop often and attack multiple angles while expanding aggressively and ultimately whittle down the zerg enough to deal a killing blow. If you fight his army head-on make sure you have some rauders/thors at the front to tank and widow mines as well. Personally I like the polt style of high widow mine production, and then constant thor production at 3+ bases. An important timing to note is when you have 3-3 and the zerg is still on 2-2. If the game went decently, and you applied constant pressure without making any big mistakes then you should have 3-3 before the zerg. If your macro is good this is a good time to apply head-on pressure and take cost-efficient engagements until they die. Also, mech is clearly viable as showcased most recently by Flash vs Life in the Shoutcast cup.
If you feel you got the mechanics for it, or you want to get them - keep playing a macro style forcing yourself to apply pressure at multiple angles and out-multitasking the zerg. If not - practice the variety of very effective aggressive builds or play mech to bank on the fact that zergs are not as good versus it (I don't play mech so I don't really know if this is true).
Ok, thanks for the tips. Do you have a guide for the 2 drop ship hellbat push? I think it's 1 reaper, then expand into factory ant then you pump hellion and make a starport while the rax makes a reactor.
I've been seeing improvement in my tvz's now thanks to advice I receive here, and I find I'm most comfortable with bio mech. One question I have is it better to go armor upgrade for vehicles over attack? I've been going mostly attack, but I wonder would extra armor on thors make a difference?
On June 09 2014 11:04 Dreamer.T wrote: For those of you terran doing well vs zerg, what's the general idea behind the matchup? I'm having a ridiculously hard time dealing with them. I'm at a mid masters level, haven't played in a while. I don't know whats the ideal unit composition and how to win vs them mid game. It seems like it's basically a game of attrition or build orders.
I'm doing my best at TvZ atm, at high masters. The way I see it the matchup is winnable at this level both with a solid macro style and with "tricky" builds like 2 rax, 2 medivac hellbat push/rauder banshee hellbat, or whatever other aggressive combination you can think of. Personally I play 2 reaper straight up macro games every game and I do fine. The key is not to panic or feel overwhelmed by the zerg army, and maintain pressure. Try to clear creep constantly on all fronts, recognize if the zerg army has a large baneling count at a specific time and only fight VERY favorably (off creep/in chokes/ well spread). Personally I try to drop often and attack multiple angles while expanding aggressively and ultimately whittle down the zerg enough to deal a killing blow. If you fight his army head-on make sure you have some rauders/thors at the front to tank and widow mines as well. Personally I like the polt style of high widow mine production, and then constant thor production at 3+ bases. An important timing to note is when you have 3-3 and the zerg is still on 2-2. If the game went decently, and you applied constant pressure without making any big mistakes then you should have 3-3 before the zerg. If your macro is good this is a good time to apply head-on pressure and take cost-efficient engagements until they die. Also, mech is clearly viable as showcased most recently by Flash vs Life in the Shoutcast cup.
If you feel you got the mechanics for it, or you want to get them - keep playing a macro style forcing yourself to apply pressure at multiple angles and out-multitasking the zerg. If not - practice the variety of very effective aggressive builds or play mech to bank on the fact that zergs are not as good versus it (I don't play mech so I don't really know if this is true).
Ok, thanks for the tips. Do you have a guide for the 2 drop ship hellbat push? I think it's 1 reaper, then expand into factory ant then you pump hellion and make a starport while the rax makes a reactor.
I've been seeing improvement in my tvz's now thanks to advice I receive here, and I find I'm most comfortable with bio mech. One question I have is it better to go armor upgrade for vehicles over attack? I've been going mostly attack, but I wonder would extra armor on thors make a difference?
Personally I think armor is the way to go, you want those thors to tank as much as possible and maybe it helps the widow mines survive a bit more as well. If you go heavier on hellbats or tanks, attack is probably good as well.
A good video that covers the hellbat build from a GM terran:
Also Taeja used this build in HSC I believe, and ForGG used it in WCS EU vs Snute.
EPT
One build that seems to be gaining popularity these days is this early midgame timing with hellbats, medivacs and a few marines that flash used in proleague and in shoutcraft. I haven't yet learned the build myself, but it shouldn't be too hard to find the VODs on youtube.
