EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 273
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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Mojitor
2 Posts
Max at 15min with 2/2, just defend until you hit, protoss style. | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On April 19 2014 22:39 Saechiis wrote: I think I need compositional advice, I did a 2/2 timing at 18 mins, but as said I mismicroed mis-scanned and ran into blindcloud and swarm hosts, losing everything for nothing basically. In WoL I could do a hive timing but versus swarm host viper a pure ground mech composition seems to be worthless, especially tanks. This is my first week back playing after I stopped playing WoL so I'm still trying to understand how the new units affect the gameplay. As an aside, swarm host dumbest unit ever. Anyways, I'm trying to find ways of play where I can remain active with my forces. I'll try doomdropping next time see what happens  I am pretty sure a 2/2 timing at 18min is extremely late, it should be closer to 14min. Allowing the Zerg 4 extra minutes to get what he wants can be game ending. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On April 20 2014 03:12 mau5mat wrote: I am pretty sure a 2/2 timing at 18min is extremely late, it should be closer to 14min. Allowing the Zerg 4 extra minutes to get what he wants can be game ending. Sure it's late but this is considering I invested in hellion pressure that killed half of his workers. Obviously it's late compared to a game where both players just macro up, but considering the damage done you'd think the timing would be stronger in comparison. Any advice on playing on TvZ on Waystation anyone? I can't take the island versus mass muta and the land third is impossible to defend. More of a bio map? | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On April 20 2014 03:36 Saechiis wrote: Sure it's late but this is considering I invested in hellion pressure that killed half of his workers. Obviously it's late compared to a game where both players just macro up, but considering the damage done you'd think the timing would be stronger in comparison. Any advice on playing on TvZ on Waystation anyone? I can't take the island versus mass muta and the land third is impossible to defend. More of a bio map? You stop building Hellions in favour of Hellbats past a certain point, and in fact, even trading all the Hellions you built for workers doesn't delay the push at all really, so it was delayed somewhere else. So better executed, you should have been set up to win the game at your 14min 2/2 push, especially if you traded Hellions for half of his drone count. | ||
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terranimbastimamove
United States81 Posts
My play style is very reckless, super risky and I would even argue that It probably looks like I'm trying to lose games rather than win them. My mindset is very impatient and I like to be constantly entertained, always doing something whether it be dropping on two fronts, hellion run-by's or just completely suicide my army at 3 different locations at once. The main reason I am making this post is I have simply hit a wall in TvP and I can't seem to improve much at all anymore. My army is/was always bigger than the protoss' at one point in the game and normally I sustain the size of the army until I get impatient or simply run into a storm or 2. I also tend to have problems with late game mass zealot/DT warp-ins on my 5th/6th bases even though I know they are coming/there I don't know how to appropriately respond without his main army attacking me and I never build bunkers for some reason. Here are some replays: TvZ 1 Rax FE blue flame hellion opener on merry-go-round - http://drop.sc/378989 ( i win this one, only for reference) The last 2 replays are against HuK in a qualifier in which I felt I played very solid yet I threw the game both times. http://drop.sc/378990 http://drop.sc/378991 http://drop.sc/378992 http://drop.sc/378993 | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On April 20 2014 04:11 mau5mat wrote: You stop building Hellions in favour of Hellbats past a certain point, and in fact, even trading all the Hellions you built for workers doesn't delay the push at all really, so it was delayed somewhere else. So better executed, you should have been set up to win the game at your 14min 2/2 push, especially if you traded Hellions for half of his drone count. I delayed armories and 3rd for more factories producing hellions and blueflame, so my 2/2 is later. Please watch the replay, I didn't do the most standard build. On April 20 2014 00:23 Mojitor wrote: A nice TvZ mech timing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-586LHv7rQ Max at 15min with 2/2, just defend until you hit, protoss style. Thx, I was sure that was Taeja for a while.lol. | ||
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DaveSprite
United States79 Posts
Guys, I need some help. How do you lategame TvT? I have one in 100 TvTs that go really late, and this one almost gave me cancer. http://drop.sc/379015 I know I bungled the opening (I was chatting someone) I meant to go for 15 gas raven but went 13 gas reaper. Basically what the HELL do you do when the other guy actually turtles well and forces the game to go really really late? I decided to stay on marine medivac because his ups were ahead of mine and I wouldn't be able to remax fast enough if I lost my army where as mass marine helped me stay in. I could really use some specific examples of things I could do better when the game goes super late for TvT cause it literally never happens for me. I should have lost but he had to go so he gave me the win. P.S. When I saw his cc's outside his nat I thought, "This spoon terran. I'm going to get cancer." 52 min later I'm almost terminal. Any help is appreciated! | ||
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Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On April 20 2014 14:16 DaveSprite wrote: Disclaimer: BATTLECRUISERS Guys, I need some help. How do you lategame TvT? I have one in 100 TvTs that go really late, and this one almost gave me cancer. http://drop.sc/379015 I know I bungled the opening (I was chatting someone) I meant to go for 15 gas raven but went 13 gas reaper. Basically what the HELL do you do when the other guy actually turtles well and forces the game to go really really late? I decided to stay on marine medivac because his ups were ahead of mine and I wouldn't be able to remax fast enough if I lost my army where as mass marine helped me stay in. I could really use some specific examples of things I could do better when the game goes super late for TvT cause it literally never happens for me. I should have lost but he had to go so he gave me the win. P.S. When I saw his cc's outside his nat I thought, "This spoon terran. I'm going to get cancer." 52 min later I'm almost terminal. Any help is appreciated! TvT is mostly a game of position. I think that you try to win the game too early here. I don't remember the exact time in the game but your first and biggest mistake was when you sacrificed your entire army for nothing in the mid game. You rushed into a tank line at his natural instead of killing his 3rd. Just keep denying his economy and force him to attack into you and you will win lots of games | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Doesn't it just shut down all aggressive 1bases completely while always gaining an economic advantage? I mean is there any build where it fares poorly, and how are you supposed to play against it/adapt when you open banshee? | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On April 21 2014 07:25 Hider wrote: What's the "counter" to 15gas into reactor marine/tank/viking opening? Doesn't it just shut down all aggressive 1bases completely while always gaining an economic advantage? I mean is there any build where it fares poorly, and how are you supposed to play against it/adapt when you open banshee? I think the most important thing to realize is that while you don't want to let them run away with the economy, there's no need to panic about being slightly later on CC timings, etc. There's not as much need in TvT to maintain absolute economic equality, because Siege Tanks are SO strong defensively. If you open gas-first, you can force it to invest heavily in defenses by going Cloak Banshees into Tank/Banshee/Marine pressure. If he is getting Tanks + Vikings, he must either build Turrets or utilize Scans to defend the Banshees, which takes away from upgrades and additional infrastructure. If he tries to add a Raven, that's almost two Siege Tanks of gas that has to be accounted for, so his natural defense is weaker. Try to keep him contained if possible (without getting caught with a backstab or in the middle of the map unsieged, obviously) and go for a standard 3CC setup. Micro your Banshees so as to not lose them and force the maximum number of Scans and Turrets. As soon as you establish your infrastructure at home, play a normal macro game, and there shouldn't be a problem. 15 gas 1-1-1 structures all have similar strengths and weaknesses. The strength being a relatively strong economy with a flexible infrastructure setup that can be tweaked to adapt to any 1-base allin/pressure play. Weaknesses are later Tanks than gas-first or 13-gas builds, slower economy than greedier 1-rax FE or CC-first plays, and narrow periods of vulnerability to Banshees because of delayed Barracks 2-3/time spent building the Reactor plus the need to produce Tanks/Vikings instead of the natural counter of Ravens. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On April 21 2014 07:25 Hider wrote: What's the "counter" to 15gas into reactor marine/tank/viking opening? Doesn't it just shut down all aggressive 1bases completely while always gaining an economic advantage? I mean is there any build where it fares poorly, and how are you supposed to play against it/adapt when you open banshee? Spoiler alert from GSL CT Group B + Show Spoiler + Maru opens gas first Cloakshee vs Flashes reaper expand It's a reaper expand rather than 15 gas, but the timings actually line up exactly the same except that you get a reaper instead of 2 marines before the reactor, have 1 less SCV and a ~30 second faster CC. I wouldn't say it's really a 'counter' to gas first cloakshee (or quite a few other builds), because you don't really need to do much damage to even things up since your opponent needs to invest in quite a bit of defense. | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
this is basically how every single TvP goes for me, Anyone that can help me with a more proper BO? and help me how to fix the engage vs this kind of push. From what I see, I didn't have enough vikings (not sure how to get more vikings unless skipping medivacs or upgrades) My macro slipped pretty badly aswell, I'm plat-dia level not really sure myself as I more often plays unranked. As the most things I need help with is the Opener from my side and how to react to his opener as this push just insta kills me. | ||
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XDEKSDEEXD
622 Posts
Any aggressive opening builds for each matchup? The common/well known ones seem to be macro openings...whereas I am looking for aggressive openings that will put pressure and harass the opponent very, very early in the game, while being able to transition decently into macro game if needed. Thanks fellow Terrans EDIT: After watching Flash just then, I saw his reaper expand that goes on to build quite a lot of hellions to harass while researching stim, so that with his next attack, Flash had many marines with stim already researched. I would love to get a BO similar to this, but without the reaper since I dont really like them :S Also, will this work for Zerg only? As shown by Flash. | ||
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Ake_Vader
Sweden58 Posts
On April 21 2014 16:32 KonanTenshi wrote: http://drop.sc/379071 this is basically how every single TvP goes for me, Anyone that can help me with a more proper BO? and help me how to fix the engage vs this kind of push. From what I see, I didn't have enough vikings (not sure how to get more vikings unless skipping medivacs or upgrades) My macro slipped pretty badly aswell, I'm plat-dia level not really sure myself as I more often plays unranked. As the most things I need help with is the Opener from my side and how to react to his opener as this push just insta kills me. Apollo has a walkthrough of a decent build for TvP, it's very similar to what you already do but tightened up: TvP build walkthrough The main thing you will gain from this is earlier factory/starport which in turn will lead to a higher viking count. In your game you only started producing from your starport at 10:20, by then he has already two medivacs out to use for a push and another set of two well started. | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
On April 22 2014 07:30 Ake_Vader wrote: Apollo has a walkthrough of a decent build for TvP, it's very similar to what you already do but tightened up: TvP build walkthrough The main thing you will gain from this is earlier factory/starport which in turn will lead to a higher viking count. In your game you only started producing from your starport at 10:20, by then he has already two medivacs out to use for a push and another set of two well started. Alrighty thanks! Will check it up! | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 21 2014 07:25 Hider wrote: What's the "counter" to 15gas into reactor marine/tank/viking opening? CC first into 3 rax Medivacs. how are you supposed to play against it/adapt when you open banshee? Just triple OC behind your Banshee opening and you'll have an equal game even if your Banshee deals zero direct damage. | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 22 2014 23:33 mau5mat wrote: Been seeing a trend in Proleague/GSL TvP were some Terrans will opt to get +1 attack --> +1 armor then go 2-1 --> 3-1 before getting the additional armor upgrades. It is obviously to have spare gas for other tech, but I am wondering if it is worth to do on ladder, or are double upgrades generally more useful? It's above all because Maru/Flash play a 4'05 EB build, so they aim at the fastest +3 attack possible with their build. It's the equivalent of quick single Forge builds that get a very fast +3 armor. | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On April 22 2014 23:46 TheDwf wrote: It's above all because Maru/Flash play a 4'05 EB build, so they aim at the fastest +3 attack possible with their build. It's the equivalent of quick single Forge builds that get a very fast +3 armor. Is it worth doing, or are double upgrades still preferable? | ||
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