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On January 15 2014 07:07 mau5mat wrote:
Strange question but, how can top Terran players such as Maru/INnoVation/FlaSh get away with only using 2 hotkeys for their army? I don't understand how they can efficiently control Bio/Ghost/Viking with only 2 hotkeys?
Where did you get that idea from? Im watching innovations stream right now, http://sv.twitch.tv/acerinnovation/b/494898138 , and he uses 3 hotkeys. I know Taeja does the same, and honestly, most koreans do. I doubt Maru and Flash only use 2.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On January 16 2014 02:20 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 07:07 mau5mat wrote:
Strange question but, how can top Terran players such as Maru/INnoVation/FlaSh get away with only using 2 hotkeys for their army? I don't understand how they can efficiently control Bio/Ghost/Viking with only 2 hotkeys? Where did you get that idea from? Im watching innovations stream right now, http://sv.twitch.tv/acerinnovation/b/494898138 , and he uses 3 hotkeys. I know Taeja does the same, and honestly, most koreans do. I doubt Maru and Flash only use 2.
Maru/Flash Stream VODS, Khaldor APM Videos, replays, The Whirlwind TvT FlaSh vs INnoVation FP portion etc.
You cannot see INnoVations hotkeys on stream because he hides them, but you can from the above sources I have mentioned.
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I cannot for the life of me win ANY game on Daedalus. I don't want to veto it yet, there HAS to be some way to get the natural up safely AND transition into a strong mid-lategame, even though the map is as open as can possibly be and the bases are terribly hard to secure.
What do you guys do on Daedalus?!
Any Zerg all in seems like an auto-win, and if they don't all in, it still feels like every aspect of the map is Zerg favored?!
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Canada8160 Posts
On January 16 2014 07:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
I cannot for the life of me win ANY game on Daedalus. I don't want to veto it yet, there HAS to be some way to get the natural up safely AND transition into a strong mid-lategame, even though the map is as open as can possibly be and the bases are terribly hard to secure.
What do you guys do on Daedalus?!
Any Zerg all in seems like an auto-win, and if they don't all in, it still feels like every aspect of the map is Zerg favored?!
Veto it is all I can say
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On January 16 2014 08:29 Jer99 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 07:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
I cannot for the life of me win ANY game on Daedalus. I don't want to veto it yet, there HAS to be some way to get the natural up safely AND transition into a strong mid-lategame, even though the map is as open as can possibly be and the bases are terribly hard to secure.
What do you guys do on Daedalus?!
Any Zerg all in seems like an auto-win, and if they don't all in, it still feels like every aspect of the map is Zerg favored?! Veto it is all I can say
It has to be doable if it is being kept in the WCS pool. Is Blizzard THAT blind..?
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On January 16 2014 07:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
I cannot for the life of me win ANY game on Daedalus. I don't want to veto it yet, there HAS to be some way to get the natural up safely AND transition into a strong mid-lategame, even though the map is as open as can possibly be and the bases are terribly hard to secure.
What do you guys do on Daedalus?!
Any Zerg all in seems like an auto-win, and if they don't all in, it still feels like every aspect of the map is Zerg favored?!
I have been having a LOT of success with 12/12 Reaper FE into Hellion/Banshee (+Cloak), and I go up to like 12-14 Hellions and 3 Banshees while transitioning to mech. I don't know if it's a function of being lower on the ladder, but I haven't felt the massive 'OMG ZERG ALLIN IMBA' that I hear from Protoss players regarding that map.
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On January 16 2014 08:46 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 07:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
I cannot for the life of me win ANY game on Daedalus. I don't want to veto it yet, there HAS to be some way to get the natural up safely AND transition into a strong mid-lategame, even though the map is as open as can possibly be and the bases are terribly hard to secure.
What do you guys do on Daedalus?!
Any Zerg all in seems like an auto-win, and if they don't all in, it still feels like every aspect of the map is Zerg favored?! I have been having a LOT of success with 12/12 Reaper FE into Hellion/Banshee (+Cloak), and I go up to like 12-14 Hellions and 3 Banshees while transitioning to mech. I don't know if it's a function of being lower on the ladder, but I haven't felt the massive 'OMG ZERG ALLIN IMBA' that I hear from Protoss players regarding that map.
MECH?
Have you seen the choke in front of the third, and the distance to the fourth? I've tried it, but Swarm Host can get such a massive concave that even Siege Tanks lose their functionality.
3 Base all in with Mech MIGHT work....
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On January 16 2014 07:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
I cannot for the life of me win ANY game on Daedalus. I don't want to veto it yet, there HAS to be some way to get the natural up safely AND transition into a strong mid-lategame, even though the map is as open as can possibly be and the bases are terribly hard to secure.
What do you guys do on Daedalus?!
Any Zerg all in seems like an auto-win, and if they don't all in, it still feels like every aspect of the map is Zerg favored?!
be creative. why not try to play the map rather than playing strictly for mid-lategame? what's so bad with a map that forces you to invest early into army more than usual??
im sure you can play oldschool stuff on that map, thats what i've been doing. i suck so no specific advice i give means anything, but im 100% sure there are things you can do TvZ on this map.
+ Show Spoiler +my opinion: I go reactor hellion before expand (wol bo, take off gas initially after 150 mined -> put back on after cc and 3rd depot) into either 2 fac blue flame -> mech (3 base allin) or bio (add rax 2,3; ebays, 3rd cc, add rax 4,5,6,7). you will scout his allin and you can keep everything in the main for a while if needed. this BO allows you to produce super early tanks as needed, allows early starport for harass, gets gas fast enough to start upgrades ok even if you spend a time before lifting to nat.
once you stabilize, the third is easy to hold, and you have good attack paths to the zerg's third.
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On January 16 2014 08:30 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 08:29 Jer99 wrote:On January 16 2014 07:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
I cannot for the life of me win ANY game on Daedalus. I don't want to veto it yet, there HAS to be some way to get the natural up safely AND transition into a strong mid-lategame, even though the map is as open as can possibly be and the bases are terribly hard to secure.
What do you guys do on Daedalus?!
Any Zerg all in seems like an auto-win, and if they don't all in, it still feels like every aspect of the map is Zerg favored?! Veto it is all I can say It has to be doable if it is being kept in the WCS pool. Is Blizzard THAT blind..?
They also have Alterzim Stronghold in the WCS pool. When it comes to Blizzard maps, assume the worst. They haven't ever been able to figure out how to make good maps, or what makes good maps good. See: All Blizzard competitive maps for BW, WC3, and SC2.
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i'd rather veto alterzim, polar night, and frost than daedalus. you just have to play completely different and for the map.
+ Show Spoiler +more not valuable opinions:
and tvt on daedalus is really fun for me, almost like pvp hehe.
tvp on daedalus is easier than usual, if they allin its super predictable (esp. blink) and you can prepare/go heavy on units. if they dont, you go heavy on units anyway and punish them with the wiiiiide open areas. i go reaper cc reaper -> 3 rax stim/shield (get slow first if u think blink imo)
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On January 16 2014 07:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
I cannot for the life of me win ANY game on Daedalus. I don't want to veto it yet, there HAS to be some way to get the natural up safely AND transition into a strong mid-lategame, even though the map is as open as can possibly be and the bases are terribly hard to secure.
What do you guys do on Daedalus?!
Any Zerg all in seems like an auto-win, and if they don't all in, it still feels like every aspect of the map is Zerg favored?!
I go 12/12 rax, one at my ramp and another in the back of my natural every game on Daedalus. I find that it is a great 2rax map because a) there are no hiding places for overlords near the naturals, so if he has his overlord somewhere where he can spot a building bunker then it will probably die, and b) the natural is so big it is very easy to build an undetected bunker somewhere in there, and then push from it. I also like the fact that because the rush distance is so short, you can build your barracks in or near your base, and still have very fast reinforcement. This strategy kills the hatch about 70% of the time for me, and even if it doesn't then you have your barracks close to your base, and since I only pull 3 scvs I usually end up ok. From there you can transition into a number of things, but I find going into hellion banshee, then blue flame drops, can be very effective, as can a 2base marine tank push followup to win the game. (this is kind of a blind counter to the types of 2-3 base aggression zerg usually does on this map, and also does nicely against any zerg harmed by a 2rax).
Also, the main/natural have so much space that drops are amazingly effective.
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I have like a 70% win rate on daedalus only facing zergs because everyone else vetoes it. I use one of two builds.
1. blue flame hellion: if you like hellions this build is great for the map. full map control and abililty for emergency WM + tanks against roach bust.
2. Reactor -> 2 reapers -> CC (low ground only if scv scout confirms not gas pool before hatch.)
factory @100 gas
then just make rines and tanks to take your natural. (leap frog bunkers and tanks if they contain you in your main)
-3rd CC then normal 3 rax -> stim-> double ebay-> starport -> 5 rax -> 2nd fac -> 8 rax -> gg
2 reapers get a great follow up scout and force zerg to get gas or queens, although on this map its basically mass speedling openings or roach busts. On the off chance zerg gets too greedy, move out with one tank and 15 marines at like 7ish min when they have 3 queens and 8 lings = dead 3rd
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Thanks for the advise guys!
I've asked some Zergs what they do - they say they open roaches because the ramp makes them scared of hellion runby's.
Is the old Hellion Banshee opener any good, I like that style and it might be pretty strong on this map!
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In tvz open standard 2 reapers, expo, 2 marines, reactor helions, 3rd CC, but I have just started to go for a starport and banshees rather than early stim as a follow up. Has anyone optimized a style like this yet? Especially the gas and depot timings are hard to get right. I love the fact that it looks just like the normal fast upgrades build until the starport, and I dont have to learn the first stage again.
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In tvt, how do i defend against 888 reaper cheese when going gas first? the reapers come too early for me to deal with with a hellion; I just try putting bunkers wherever i can but I'm not sure that's the correct response. I delay my orbital to afford the bunkers and make it whenever I feel safe enough to do so.
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On January 16 2014 22:09 halpimcat wrote:
In tvt, how do i defend against 888 reaper cheese when going gas first? the reapers come too early for me to deal with with a hellion; I just try putting bunkers wherever i can but I'm not sure that's the correct response. I delay my orbital to afford the bunkers and make it whenever I feel safe enough to do so.
Constant marine production, add barracks, use SCVs to help you defend. Pull out of gas too, or take the risk to get hellions out.
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How do I counter 2 base roach ling bane as terran?
Is this zerg strategy an allin?
How do I stop this when playing CC 1st?
Is there a blind counter / build order to this strategy?
Thanks for advice.
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On January 17 2014 02:57 Vipermagi wrote:
How do I counter 2 base roach ling bane as terran?
Is this zerg strategy an allin?
How do I stop this when playing CC 1st?
Is there a blind counter / build order to this strategy?
Thanks for advice.
I'd suggest putting up a replay to get a better response.
As with pretty much all heavy aggression plays, scouting plays a key role. If you're doing the greedy 3cc with reactored hellions build and you don't see the roach warren, baneling nest, and/or lack of 3rd hatchery in time to put your defenses up, there should be no reasonable expectation of holding. Having a spread out 2-3 bunker set up with marauder and/or factory (either tank or WM) production should do nicely.
Your opponent will have heavily sacrificed economy in order to get this up, so if you hold and either counter with medivacs or take a fast third and parade push you should be in a good position IMO. So I guess yeah, it's kind of all-in.
CC first shouldn't matter too much, as by the time it hits you should have fairly similar tech and army to a rax-first build. You may struggle scouting slightly more without the fast reaper though.
Blind counter could be something like a 1-1-1 with banshees, which can reasonably transition into a 3rd CC build against standard play or additional rax against an aggressive play, and in standard games can be nice for the reaper+hellion+banshee early game poke.
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On January 17 2014 03:59 B-rye88 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 02:57 Vipermagi wrote:
How do I counter 2 base roach ling bane as terran?
Is this zerg strategy an allin?
How do I stop this when playing CC 1st?
Is there a blind counter / build order to this strategy?
Thanks for advice. I'd suggest putting up a replay to get a better response. As with pretty much all heavy aggression plays, scouting plays a key role. If you're doing the greedy 3cc with reactored hellions build and you don't see the roach warren, baneling nest, and/or lack of 3rd hatchery in time to put your defenses up, there should be no reasonable expectation of holding. Having a spread out 2-3 bunker set up with marauder and/or factory (either tank or WM) production should do nicely. Your opponent will have heavily sacrificed economy in order to get this up, so if you hold and either counter with medivacs or take a fast third and parade push you should be in a good position IMO. So I guess yeah, it's kind of all-in. CC first shouldn't matter too much, as by the time it hits you should have fairly similar tech and army to a rax-first build. You may struggle scouting slightly more without the fast reaper though. Blind counter could be something like a 1-1-1 with banshees, which can reasonably transition into a 3rd CC build against standard play or additional rax against an aggressive play, and in standard games can be nice for the reaper+hellion+banshee early game poke.
Let me second opening Hellion/Banshee 3CC. In fact, an ideal opening is Reaper FE -> 2 Reapers -> Hellion/Banshee. The Reapers ensure the scouting of whatever's coming, and Banshees deal with Roach-based play admirably. Use the Hellions to try and detonate the Banelings while the Banshees clean up all the Roaches. If you are planning on transitioning into Bio-Mine, you're already capable of building Marauders off your Barracks researching Stim, so sim-city that front with a lot of depot blocks, Bunkers, and SCVs, and you should be in a great position. If he goes 2 or 3 base allin with Roach/Bane, I would be astonished to see him be able to match your upgrades, so if you don't lose literally all your SCVs to his attack, you can keep counting on the fact that eventually your upgraded bio will be able to overpower his units assuming you defend correctly and keep macroing.
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On January 16 2014 22:37 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 22:09 halpimcat wrote:
In tvt, how do i defend against 888 reaper cheese when going gas first? the reapers come too early for me to deal with with a hellion; I just try putting bunkers wherever i can but I'm not sure that's the correct response. I delay my orbital to afford the bunkers and make it whenever I feel safe enough to do so. Constant marine production, add barracks, use SCVs to help you defend. Pull out of gas too, or take the risk to get hellions out.
Do you have a replay where you go gas first? This advice really doesn't say anything other than the obvious, when I need a little bit more nuance. The opponent will have as many or more reapers than I do marines for a significant amount of time; trying to push them back with my marines and scvs just massacres whatever economy I need to survive unless I can guess where he jumps up to get into my base.
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EPT
