|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On January 09 2014 00:08 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 23:50 Stazzle wrote:
I'm learning terran and pretty much go reaper expand in all my matchups to be safe. Against zerg when the reaper scouts and i see a lots of lings/banenest/late expansion or roach warren, what should my reaction be? I always build cc on highground. Should i try to rush out a tank? make marines or marauders? 12/12 Reaper FE into Hellion is a good build, build your CC on the low ground though. If you scout more than 100 Gas mined, it implies some kind of aggressive play, you need to identify if it will be ling based or roach based, or bane based, or all three. You can keep the reactor on the Barracks and the tech lab on the Factory for a while to get out some tanks and some extra marines, you basically want to make bunkers behind your wall, meaning that the banelings will have to chew through extra structures before they can actually do anything substantial. A few tanks will hold any aggression like this pretty well, alternatively, going Banshee is quite popular at the minute, and is safer than just relying on Reaper/Hellion in the early game. It also makes your counterswing a lot harder to deal with, and more often than not you can kill creep queens/drones/3rd bases for free after you hold.
Something else to be aware of with mining more than 100 gas - it's not unheard of for Zerg to leave just 1 or 2 on gas and go for a normal quick third but as fast as possible a Lair behind that which doesn't cut the Drone count too deeply. It DOES leave them vulnerable to well-executed Hellion/Banshee pressure but stands a good chance of getting fast enough Mutas to put the Terran on the back foot. My suggestion is to really look for the unit production, and if you don't see a lot of Lings/Roaches streaming out VERY quickly, try and scout the Lair timing. If it is that quick Lair, just be aware that you will need a fairly fast Muta defense. Reactored Widow Mines out of the Factory and 1 Turret per mineral line could be a possible adjustment, since you'll already have a use for Widow Mines when you move out for the big push on the Zerg 4th base.
|
United Kingdom31935 Posts
|
Reaper Reactor expand into 1-1-1 is perfectly viable against all 1-base pressure/all-ins except 3'20 proxy Stargates [because you have neither 6 Marines nor a Mine ready in time for the first Oracle in your mineral line by 5'10 - 5'20, so you have to deviate and get an EB for a Turret; before the last patch, you could stall with a Bunker in your mineral line, but the new Oracles can circumvent it too easily to still deal damage].
What about the more modern variant on heavy oracles maps? Dont get the reaper first but start with the reactor. In case of the super fast proxy oracle which you should be able to confirm with the scv scout you make marines straight away and no reaper. If he doesnt you just go double reaper like flash for alot of scouting or just 1 reaper and continue normal.
Ofc the reaper is a bit later but the quick reaper wont confirm anything anyway as protoss just adds tech after MC core + stalker. Hereafter the suicide scouting run through the base should remain the same.
It just has problems ofcourse for example with proxies if you dont like to wall off though and your early game scouting is a bit delayed.
This is how opened alot of the times vs toss eventhough I hardly play anymore I think its still interresting to know what others think of this method.
|
What is the exact build order for hellion banshee into mech when you go for 2 factories first and keep producing banshees to about 5 and ahve 2 thors as your first mech units.
When do you pause hellions and what timing do you add ebays?
|
How do you guys deal with a situation where you're stuck defending your third against muta/ling/bane harassment?
You know the zerg is taking a 4th. You know you need to hit it. Every time you leave your base, a huge wave of ling/bane/muta counters. If you sit and defend, they macro. If you move out, you get killed. Imagine that at this point your army comp is marine/medivac/mine, so banes eat you up pretty bad, limiting you to drop harass.
What do you do?
I just played a game where I was stuck defending non-stop. I thought, "This Zerg has to be hurting for econ with this non-stop aggro" but nope, I was wrong. They had gobs of workers, and enough economy to keep the pressure up relentlessly with cheap banes and lings. I had 3/3 by the end, we were tied for upgrades throughout, I just couldn't stop this unrelenting assault.
What do you guys do?
|
On January 09 2014 05:20 SC2Toastie wrote:
What is the exact build order for hellion banshee into mech when you go for 2 factories first and keep producing banshees to about 5 and ahve 2 thors as your first mech units.
When do you pause hellions and what timing do you add ebays?
so reaper expand/CC first whatever
Factory
Reactor on barracks
Second gas as your factory is half way
Starport as soon as factory is done
Swap addons with factory and constant hellion production
Tech lab on rax and then swap to starport.
Cloak or no cloak is up you but if no cloak I believe you can delay your 2nd gas.
You can build a 3rd CC/ebay and double armory here but keep producing units. I tend to go only 2 banshees and with my first 4 hellions poke around and check for a 3rd etc. Then when the first banshee is out harass and continue to do so without commiting too hard. During this attack you will need to go up to 5 factories too, go up in increment of 2's where you get 4 and 5 as you take your 3rd base. Dont stop hellions until you either need mines for mutas or you get hellbats instead.
If its 2 base muta into 3rd just vikings turret and a Thor(add more if he commits to muta) other wise add tanks for a roach switch. Double upgrades and blue flame will allow for a strong push into the zerg with 2/2 or just hardcore turtle from there.
If you go 2 factories into mech you go blue flame hellion usually and its the same build just build the 2nd factory as you have 100 gas. There is no reason to build 2 thors as your first factory units and you only need one ebay if your going mech. Also hellion banshee build with 2 thors didnt sound right so I just gave the normal build with the options for thors if you scout mutas.
|
On January 09 2014 06:40 Mjolnir wrote:
How do you guys deal with a situation where you're stuck defending your third against muta/ling/bane harassment?
You know the zerg is taking a 4th. You know you need to hit it. Every time you leave your base, a huge wave of ling/bane/muta counters. If you sit and defend, they macro. If you move out, you get killed. Imagine that at this point your army comp is marine/medivac/mine, so banes eat you up pretty bad, limiting you to drop harass.
What do you do?
I just played a game where I was stuck defending non-stop. I thought, "This Zerg has to be hurting for econ with this non-stop aggro" but nope, I was wrong. They had gobs of workers, and enough economy to keep the pressure up relentlessly with cheap banes and lings. I had 3/3 by the end, we were tied for upgrades throughout, I just couldn't stop this unrelenting assault.
What do you guys do?
If you're stuck defending against a zerg and you are not trading well, you probably are or will be behind. Being behind in tvz isn't that bad though, as both players have lots of ways to get ahead. Staying on the edge of creep and taking a 4th might be better.
Have you ever tried the polt style of taking a 4th while separating your army into 2-3 groups. 2 separate groups that you are active with, and then the units that end up at a rally point. Unless you are very behind you should be able to trade well when a zerg attacks you off creep. I personally like to put three bunkers in a spot that defends my third + natural in every macro game. And as soon as a zerg commits to 15+ mutas, a sensor tower really helps.
Derelict isn't in the map pool anymore but its a really easy example. 3 bunkers in-between your nat and 3rd make it so they cant attack you over and over without running out of steam. Planetary at your 4th with one army, and your second army on the opposite side of the map (top and bottom). Never go up the middle and just poke with one army at a time so they can never take an easy fifth without exposing a base. From the top you can deny their 5th and drop their third and from the bottom you can kill their 4th or drop their main. Even if you expand even-ish with them (1/2 a base behind) you have a good chance at beating them late game. Polt was the best at this style of play so any of his replays when he won WCS america are a good place for tips. I also think there is an old TL article about it.
|
On January 09 2014 06:40 Mjolnir wrote:
How do you guys deal with a situation where you're stuck defending your third against muta/ling/bane harassment?
You know the zerg is taking a 4th. You know you need to hit it. Every time you leave your base, a huge wave of ling/bane/muta counters. If you sit and defend, they macro. If you move out, you get killed. Imagine that at this point your army comp is marine/medivac/mine, so banes eat you up pretty bad, limiting you to drop harass.
What do you do?
I just played a game where I was stuck defending non-stop. I thought, "This Zerg has to be hurting for econ with this non-stop aggro" but nope, I was wrong. They had gobs of workers, and enough economy to keep the pressure up relentlessly with cheap banes and lings. I had 3/3 by the end, we were tied for upgrades throughout, I just couldn't stop this unrelenting assault.
What do you guys do?
Please put up the replay.
Something to consider is queuing drops. A large part of the advantage of mutas is drop prevention, if he wants to position them to counter-attack then he must negate his ability to protect his 4th and tech from drops.
Another item is static D. If he is constantly attacking, put up a couple of bunkers + rear-gaurd turrets, and let him bash his army's face in against it while you go kill creep + 4th.
|
Hi guys, I noticed that every time I play a Terran on Yeonsu they open 2 rax reaper and it's insanely hard to hold without taking a substantial amount of damage. Nowadays I open up with a FE that first gets a marine and then a reaper to scout, followed up by a reactor and going into 1/1/1.
What is the optimal build to shut the reaper aggression down? I feel hellions are the answer, it's just that you have to buy a lot of time for them to get out.
Are these 2 rax reaper FE builds punishable in the early game?
|
On January 09 2014 16:09 herMan wrote:
Hi guys, I noticed that every time I play a Terran on Yeonsu they open 2 rax reaper and it's insanely hard to hold without taking a substantial amount of damage. Nowadays I open up with a FE that first gets a marine and then a reaper to scout, followed up by a reactor and going into 1/1/1.
What is the optimal build to shut the reaper aggression down? I feel hellions are the answer, it's just that you have to buy a lot of time for them to get out.
Are these 2 rax reaper FE builds punishable in the early game?
I think that you can hold 2 rax reapers fairly easily with gas first reactor hellions. The first reaper should enter the base before any hellion is out (even before you switched addon), so this part is a bit tricky. I can lose like one scv in this case, but after that it's completely over for the reaper guy (as far as his opening goes).
|
On January 09 2014 16:09 herMan wrote:
Hi guys, I noticed that every time I play a Terran on Yeonsu they open 2 rax reaper and it's insanely hard to hold without taking a substantial amount of damage. Nowadays I open up with a FE that first gets a marine and then a reaper to scout, followed up by a reactor and going into 1/1/1.
What is the optimal build to shut the reaper aggression down? I feel hellions are the answer, it's just that you have to buy a lot of time for them to get out.
Are these 2 rax reaper FE builds punishable in the early game?
2 Rax reaper is a good meta build because it's very strong against the popular reaper expand. Some builds like the forGG build are doing just fine versus this because it doesn't reaper scout and have high marine count. The only issue with forGG build is that it is optimal for mech play, not so much for biomech.
Another good but old build is a simple 1 rax expo because you can produce high count of marines off 1 rax.
I'm not fond of a gas first hellion play because it put you behind if you go vs reaper expand. and you have to do dmg with an hellion drop to trully benefit from it.
|
I like doing builds that I have to do damage with :D. So thrilling and interesting, that's what Terran is about. If I wanted to make a mothership core and sit on my ass, I'd play...nah rather kill myself.
|
weird question but how do I get into the mentality of playing TvT Mech? I've always played Bio and have been doing okay but EVERYONE on Korea is doing Mech now. I tried to switch it up but I'm just always lost, any good ideas of how to think about mech vs bio play?
|
On January 09 2014 20:42 Chaggi wrote:
weird question but how do I get into the mentality of playing TvT Mech? I've always played Bio and have been doing okay but EVERYONE on Korea is doing Mech now. I tried to switch it up but I'm just always lost, any good ideas of how to think about mech vs bio play?
Mech is about prophylaxis and awareness - trying to counter your opponent's moves before they make them. Knowing which are the vulnerable sectors for drops, Scanning a lot to find the exact positioning of your opponent's army, exploiting his moveout timings with Hellbat drops and Hellion run-bys, and that sort of thing.
I find that mech play's complexity happens before battles, while bio/tank play's complexity happens in the engagements. Correct Marine splits and siege up timings, whereas mech benefits a great deal from setting up the perfect situation to engage and then gunning it in a glorious rain of explosions.
|
On January 09 2014 16:09 herMan wrote:
Hi guys, I noticed that every time I play a Terran on Yeonsu they open 2 rax reaper and it's insanely hard to hold without taking a substantial amount of damage. Nowadays I open up with a FE that first gets a marine and then a reaper to scout, followed up by a reactor and going into 1/1/1.
What is the optimal build to shut the reaper aggression down? I feel hellions are the answer, it's just that you have to buy a lot of time for them to get out.
Are these 2 rax reaper FE builds punishable in the early game?
2 rax reaper builds aren't so popular nowadays. I think they're pretty weak against 12 gas cloak banshee (any 12 gas 13 rax build can get a hellion or two out quickly and then it's shut down) and even if you're going for an expansion build you can just turtle until you have enough marines or a factory or something. But if you open reaper without scv scouting then you should lose vs 2 rax reaper, once he hits you with 3 reapers you have like 1 reaper and a marine. Not good.
Unless you mean the 8/8/8 style proxy 2 rax reaper (which so far this season on KR has been really popular for some reason) in which case the only ways to beat it are to open 12 gas 13 rax and micro scvs and marines until hellions come out or to scout it with your scouting scv and delay the second rax from finishing in time whilst you add a second and maybe third rax of your own. My micro's kinda ordinary tbh but I find I generally cannot beat a proxy 8/8/8 blind if I'm not opening 12 gas 13 rax.
|
On January 09 2014 20:42 Chaggi wrote:
weird question but how do I get into the mentality of playing TvT Mech? I've always played Bio and have been doing okay but EVERYONE on Korea is doing Mech now. I tried to switch it up but I'm just always lost, any good ideas of how to think about mech vs bio play?
In Mech vs Mech you just expand very quickly, try to harass of course with Hellions and generally make a ton of Hellbats since they actually beat Tanks as long as the Tank count isnt too high.
|
Are vikings an afterthought? do you just want to keep a lead over the other guy?
|
You need vikings, minimum like 3 or 4, just to stop medivacs from dunking shit all over your tanks. If you're having issues with banshees just a thor or two will swat them away, but you need tons of thors to stop medivacs.
|
On January 08 2014 22:39 G-force wrote:
Thanks a lot Dwf for the well argued responce. At least now i know that i CAN hold these kinds of one base allins with FE into 1-1-1. Its probably simply my poor execution, so off to more practice with me xD.
Do you think Heavy rain is really so bad for TvP? I haven't faced a lot of protosses on it, so i dont have a big sample size. I currently have Frost and Alterzim vetoed (too big and hard to scout proxies) aswell as Yeonsu (dat cliff area...).
If it is of any comfort, know that at high level Terran losing a scouted Protoss all-in with prepared defense is quite common too.
The wide open main in Heavy Rain should be bad for a Tank-based defence against Blink attacks, yes, as you would probably have to reposition your Tanks a lot, which is awkward. But you have no other choice if you open with 1-1-1 anyway.
On January 08 2014 23:50 Stazzle wrote:
I'm learning terran and pretty much go reaper expand in all my matchups to be safe. Against zerg when the reaper scouts and i see a lots of lings/banenest/late expansion or roach warren, what should my reaction be? I always build cc on highground. Should i try to rush out a tank? make marines or marauders?
Read this (second part of the post).
On January 09 2014 04:17 GumBa wrote:http://drop.sc/370823Should I have evaced earlier or what should I do in this situation?
It's safer to lift your OC and defend at your main ramp against an all-in, yes; or at least have a safety Bunker at your main ramp in case you have to withdraw. Focus on your macro; your rax must produce 100% of the time, otherwise you have zero chance at holding whatever nonsense he's doing. Don't build your Bunker on the edge so close to it, by the way.
On January 09 2014 04:58 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +Reaper Reactor expand into 1-1-1 is perfectly viable against all 1-base pressure/all-ins except 3'20 proxy Stargates [because you have neither 6 Marines nor a Mine ready in time for the first Oracle in your mineral line by 5'10 - 5'20, so you have to deviate and get an EB for a Turret; before the last patch, you could stall with a Bunker in your mineral line, but the new Oracles can circumvent it too easily to still deal damage]. What about the more modern variant on heavy oracles maps? Dont get the reaper first but start with the reactor. In case of the super fast proxy oracle which you should be able to confirm with the scv scout you make marines straight away and no reaper. If he doesnt you just go double reaper like flash for alot of scouting or just 1 reaper and continue normal. Ofc the reaper is a bit later but the quick reaper wont confirm anything anyway as protoss just adds tech after MC core + stalker. Hereafter the suicide scouting run through the base should remain the same. It just has problems ofcourse for example with proxies if you dont like to wall off though and your early game scouting is a bit delayed. This is how opened alot of the times vs toss eventhough I hardly play anymore I think its still interresting to know what others think of this method.
Yes, it's viable.
On January 09 2014 05:20 SC2Toastie wrote:
What is the exact build order for hellion banshee into mech when you go for 2 factories first and keep producing banshees to about 5 and ahve 2 thors as your first mech units.
When do you pause hellions and what timing do you add ebays?
You don't get +2 fact first unless you're facing some kind of Roach-based all-in, the standard/optimal development is third → dual gas at natural → dual Armory → +2 fact. Cutting Hellion production at some point is a matter of choice, it depends on the amount of pressure you want; the most macro-oriented versions would get only 6 or 8 Hellions at first, while at the other end of the spectrum you don't cut Hellions/Banshees production and add the mech infrastructure as money allows.
On January 09 2014 06:40 Mjolnir wrote:
How do you guys deal with a situation where you're stuck defending your third against muta/ling/bane harassment?
You know the zerg is taking a 4th. You know you need to hit it. Every time you leave your base, a huge wave of ling/bane/muta counters. If you sit and defend, they macro. If you move out, you get killed. Imagine that at this point your army comp is marine/medivac/mine, so banes eat you up pretty bad, limiting you to drop harass.
What do you do?
I just played a game where I was stuck defending non-stop. I thought, "This Zerg has to be hurting for econ with this non-stop aggro" but nope, I was wrong. They had gobs of workers, and enough economy to keep the pressure up relentlessly with cheap banes and lings. I had 3/3 by the end, we were tied for upgrades throughout, I just couldn't stop this unrelenting assault.
What do you guys do?
You were behind for some reason. Check the replay and compare your execution of the build with a pro replay. Supply blocks, bad SCV production, late Starport timing, etc., or simply a bad build can all lead to the kind of scenario you describe. Or maybe you were facing a 2-bases mutas build and didn't defend properly. But if it was a standard 3-bases mutas play from the Zerg, you messed up something as you cannot be "contained" that early in a normal TvZ scenario.
On January 09 2014 16:09 herMan wrote:
Hi guys, I noticed that every time I play a Terran on Yeonsu they open 2 rax reaper and it's insanely hard to hold without taking a substantial amount of damage. Nowadays I open up with a FE that first gets a marine and then a reaper to scout, followed up by a reactor and going into 1/1/1.
What is the optimal build to shut the reaper aggression down? I feel hellions are the answer, it's just that you have to buy a lot of time for them to get out.
Are these 2 rax reaper FE builds punishable in the early game?
Gas first Marines/Hellions elevator (Banshee works too) or gas 15 into Marines/Hellions/Medivac. Your build is a build order loss to 2 rax reapers.
On January 09 2014 20:42 Chaggi wrote:
weird question but how do I get into the mentality of playing TvT Mech? I've always played Bio and have been doing okay but EVERYONE on Korea is doing Mech now. I tried to switch it up but I'm just always lost, any good ideas of how to think about mech vs bio play?
Well, nothing forces you to play mech, bio(mech) is still viable so you can keep playing it if you want.
On January 09 2014 23:50 iaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 16:09 herMan wrote:
Hi guys, I noticed that every time I play a Terran on Yeonsu they open 2 rax reaper and it's insanely hard to hold without taking a substantial amount of damage. Nowadays I open up with a FE that first gets a marine and then a reaper to scout, followed up by a reactor and going into 1/1/1.
What is the optimal build to shut the reaper aggression down? I feel hellions are the answer, it's just that you have to buy a lot of time for them to get out.
Are these 2 rax reaper FE builds punishable in the early game? 2 rax reaper builds aren't so popular nowadays. I think they're pretty weak against 12 gas cloak banshee (any 12 gas 13 rax build can get a hellion or two out quickly and then it's shut down) and even if you're going for an expansion build you can just turtle until you have enough marines or a factory or something. But if you open reaper without scv scouting then you should lose vs 2 rax reaper, once he hits you with 3 reapers you have like 1 reaper and a marine. Not good. Unless you mean the 8/8/8 style proxy 2 rax reaper (which so far this season on KR has been really popular for some reason) in which case the only ways to beat it are to open 12 gas 13 rax and micro scvs and marines until hellions come out or to scout it with your scouting scv and delay the second rax from finishing in time whilst you add a second and maybe third rax of your own. My micro's kinda ordinary tbh but I find I generally cannot beat a proxy 8/8/8 blind if I'm not opening 12 gas 13 rax.
8-8-8 can be defended by any build having continuous Marine production, gas or rax first. As long as you don't lose your first Marine for nothing, e. g. his scouting SCV baiting your Marine into his Reaper, you should be fine.
|
In TvT, high master, I do forgg build 15 gas reactor cc into 1-1-1, I always die to gas first cloak banshee with marine tank followup push off 1 base. How to hold this? I get ebay, turret in every base, bunker at front, I make constant reactored marines and vikings, when I finally be safe vs banshees the push already comes. What is the correct unit composition? Should I cut scvs? Repair bunker? Rush for Raven? After 1, 2 or 3 Vikings? A turret at production too? Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
