EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 230
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Diminisherqc
Canada220 Posts
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
Bio/ghost/double starport viking. Don't bother dropping, just play defensively til 200/200. In battle you need to emp the phoenixes and have the vikings focus fire the colossus. You will win the big battles very easy as he'll have so much wasted gas in phoenixes that don't do anything. Hence why nobody does this anymore. On September 04 2012 06:50 Ver wrote: The way to beat colo/phoenix 100% reliably is turtling until maxed on 3 base with double port viking and getting ghosts. You can get 2/2 and double port viking, those are not mutually exclusive. Don't bother dropping: it's far too risky and little reward, unless he tries some early 2 base allin and you know where his phoenix are. In that 200 battle you just emp their phoenix and focus fire colo with vikings and they just wasted tons of money for nothing, meaning you win very easily. TheDwf wrote: Yes, actually you overmake Vikings so you can ignore Phoenixes (don't waste shots on them, they're not the damage dealers in his army) and kill Colossi reasonably fast without losing all your Vikings to Phoenixes before they get the job done. Be sure to get air attack upgrades as well. If you have enough Ghosts, try to hit Colossi too with EMP so you can divide your focus fire and kill 2 Colossi instead of one at the beginning of the fight when you still have enough Vikings. Don't even try an all-ground approach, it's generally impossible to deal with 3+ Colossi without Vikings unless you badly outnumber him. Uncontested Colossi just deal way too much damage, you will lose like 10+ supply each time they attack and his Zealot wall won't even be down by the time most of your bio is reduced to ashes. Needless to say, you need a second Starport to deal with Phoenixes/Colossi. EDIT: From OP. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On January 06 2014 13:45 Whatson wrote: On August 25 2012 15:50 Ver wrote: Bio/ghost/double starport viking. Don't bother dropping, just play defensively til 200/200. In battle you need to emp the phoenixes and have the vikings focus fire the colossus. You will win the big battles very easy as he'll have so much wasted gas in phoenixes that don't do anything. Hence why nobody does this anymore. On September 04 2012 06:50 Ver wrote: The way to beat colo/phoenix 100% reliably is turtling until maxed on 3 base with double port viking and getting ghosts. You can get 2/2 and double port viking, those are not mutually exclusive. Don't bother dropping: it's far too risky and little reward, unless he tries some early 2 base allin and you know where his phoenix are. In that 200 battle you just emp their phoenix and focus fire colo with vikings and they just wasted tons of money for nothing, meaning you win very easily. TheDwf wrote: Yes, actually you overmake Vikings so you can ignore Phoenixes (don't waste shots on them, they're not the damage dealers in his army) and kill Colossi reasonably fast without losing all your Vikings to Phoenixes before they get the job done. Be sure to get air attack upgrades as well. If you have enough Ghosts, try to hit Colossi too with EMP so you can divide your focus fire and kill 2 Colossi instead of one at the beginning of the fight when you still have enough Vikings. Don't even try an all-ground approach, it's generally impossible to deal with 3+ Colossi without Vikings unless you badly outnumber him. Uncontested Colossi just deal way too much damage, you will lose like 10+ supply each time they attack and his Zealot wall won't even be down by the time most of your bio is reduced to ashes. Needless to say, you need a second Starport to deal with Phoenixes/Colossi. EDIT: From OP. There are some other ways to beat this style that I have seen and tried out as well. You can abuse the fact that phoenix colossus is relatively low on gateway units for much of the game, by doing a lot of multiprong ground attacks (not drops, although you can drop as long as you are resigned to losing the units). Also, if you ever manage to kill the stargate then you have essentially won, because he will be behind on upgrades, low on stalkers, and also low on phoenixes, so you can often just attack and win after that point with a decent viking count. | ||
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Diminisherqc
Canada220 Posts
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DaveSprite
United States79 Posts
What have you guys been doing about walling on Deadalus (spelling?) point? I'm not vetoing any of the maps yet because I like the 'newness' but this one has me stumped. Do you guys just make a half wall from your nat cc to the cliff, or do you actually try to wall that 4v4 player map? | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On January 07 2014 02:47 DaveSprite wrote: TvZ question What have you guys been doing about walling on Deadalus (spelling?) point? I'm not vetoing any of the maps yet because I like the 'newness' but this one has me stumped. Do you guys just make a half wall from your nat cc to the cliff, or do you actually try to wall that 4v4 player map? I can't say I'm a pro but I've been doing a simple 1rax FE on this map. Since there are no great ways to hide an overlord on this map you can sometimes pick off the first OL being sent out. I make the CC on the low ground and build a bunker between my gas geyser and the CC that is constructing. That way if he speedling floods the surface area is pretty abysmal. Then I just construct a wall at the front and move the bunker there. I'm also a fan of 2rax on this map -edit- Should clarify I just slowly build the wall via necessity of depots. I don't rush a wall out since I don't find it overly important. | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
On January 07 2014 03:05 Tenks wrote: I can't say I'm a pro but I've been doing a simple 1rax FE on this map. Since there are no great ways to hide an overlord on this map you can sometimes pick off the first OL being sent out. I make the CC on the low ground and build a bunker between my gas geyser and the CC that is constructing. That way if he speedling floods the surface area is pretty abysmal. Then I just construct a wall at the front and move the bunker there. I'm also a fan of 2rax on this map Everything this guy said. No good ovie spots on this map. Best to just make units instead of an early wall. Make the bunker in a safe spot (below the main ramp, or next to geyser) and make hellions. Zerg cannot wall out hellions either. As you need depots you can slowly wall off starting at your CC to cliff, then moving to the huge ramp. Hellions and some maraders if you go bio, or hellions and banshees or tanks if mech, can hold off aggression. Triple CC, double ebay play was designed to be a huge risk on this map, as well fast triple hatch. I don't even know what protoss is supposed to do... 3 gate expo? gate expo into 4 gate? | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
On January 07 2014 03:44 Doc Brawler wrote: Everything this guy said. No good ovie spots on this map. Best to just make units instead of an early wall. Make the bunker in a safe spot (below the main ramp, or next to geyser) and make hellions. Zerg cannot wall out hellions either. As you need depots you can slowly wall off starting at your CC to cliff, then moving to the huge ramp. Hellions and some maraders if you go bio, or hellions and banshees or tanks if mech, can hold off aggression. Triple CC, double ebay play was designed to be a huge risk on this map, as well fast triple hatch. I don't even know what protoss is supposed to do... 3 gate expo? gate expo into 4 gate? 3 gate sentry into expand. I won't say nothing else will work, but it's terrible PvZ map. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8255 Posts
Edit: I should have only one gas the whole time right? When do I get second gas? I realized the 6:30 scan timing is basically when my natural Orbital is finished. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
If it's 2 base build maintain 2 bases, put 2 bunkers at your natural and 1 covering each area of your main around the cliff. Maintain 100% scv and unit production focusing on getting 2 tech lab marauders production. Delay factory and/or starport and don't get a 3rd gas going. Consider getting a sensor tower, it's kinda neat (though kinda expensive. You can move scvs around your main cliff instead which isn't quite as good but does save 125/100). If it's 1 base blink, fall back into your main and bunker up all the approaches. Keep your reaper out on the map and use it to see when/if he expands. Keep a few scvs on the most threatened bunker and try and keep an eye on where his mocore is since the bunker closest to it is the bunker he's gonna go for. Delay factory until after the first wave is repelled, then get it. Also keep a scan handy/get an ebay at some point so you don't lose to a DT transition that some like to do. Any 1 base all in will force you up your main ramp, you just don't have enough units when it hits to defend a natural. Fortunately they don't have a natural so this is often sort of ok. Defending protoss all ins is a matter of scouting and having enough bunkers and scvs around them in time. Often times you'll lose and it will not feel particularly fair. Such is the way of Protoss. On January 07 2014 02:47 DaveSprite wrote: TvZ question What have you guys been doing about walling on Deadalus (spelling?) point? I'm not vetoing any of the maps yet because I like the 'newness' but this one has me stumped. Do you guys just make a half wall from your nat cc to the cliff, or do you actually try to wall that 4v4 player map? Short answer: Don't play Deadalus point. The natural layout's broken. Hopefully blizz realises this quickly and changes it, they have been snappy about changing up broken shitty maps recently (Klontas comes to mind). Long answer: If you're playing a 3cc style something like this (http://i.imgur.com/WjKJpQF.jpg) might work, but it's still really awful. I imagine hellions are good vs zerg on this map since it's very difficult for them to defend with queens and evos. But this probably means they open roaches which shuts that down. But there's no good bunker set up to block roach push builds. Not to mention speedling counters too. Yea idk, don't play deadalus point | ||
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Have you any recent vods of happy doing it though? | ||
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G-force
Netherlands28 Posts
What I would like to know most is how to hold off 3 gate stargate / 3 gate 'mofocore' / one base blink allins if you open up reaper expand (CC in main) > reactor rax > factory > fast starport. I try to scout a stargate with my reaper, but if its not a proxy stargate P usually denies scouting to his tech. If i see stargate or if im unsure, i will build an engibay after the reactor on barracks and build a turret in my mineral line. If no oracles come i get a techlab on factory for a tank, but with a 3 gate blinkstalker build i will only have 1 tank out in time. I can at most have enough marines to barely fill 2 bunkers, which i just die with to any form of blink into the main... It almost seems like one-basing is the only option left to me in this matchup, but that gets stopped by photon overcharge... halp! edit: typo edit 2: I know that theres been a discussion about TvP blink allins before this, but that was with an FE > 3 rax opening. | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On January 07 2014 22:16 G-force wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Hey guys, I've been having insane problems with TvP early game. I think i literally lose 70% of the TvP's i get matched up in before the 10 minute mark... What I would like to know most is how to hold off 3 gate stargate / 3 gate 'mofocore' / one base blink allins if you open up reaper expand (CC in main) > reactor rax > factory > fast starport. I try to scout a stargate with my reaper, but if its not a proxy stargate P usually denies scouting to his tech. If i see stargate or if im unsure, i will build an engibay after the reactor on barracks and build a turret in my mineral line. If no oracles come i get a techlab on factory for a tank, but with a 3 gate blinkstalker build i will only have 1 tank out in time. I can at most have enough marines to barely fill 2 bunkers, which i just die with to any form of blink into the main... It almost seems like one-basing is the only option left to me in this matchup, but that gets stopped by photon overcharge... halp! edit: typo edit 2: I know that theres been a discussion about TvP blink allins before this, but that was with an FE > 3 rax opening. Just a small suggestion: If you expect Oracles, it's enough to build a bunker in your mineralline and but some marines inside instead of an ebay and a turret. Saves you minerals and you can easily salvage the bunker, if no Oracles are coming. On a sidenote: I gave up on Reaper FE and go gasless 1 Rax FE instead, because I feel like I can get the same info with an SCV scout and get more marines out to defend 1 base pushes, when skipping the Reaper. Against any 1 Base Blink stuff, the tank and some bunkers are fine, but you need to be really quick with SCV repair. Some maps are just a pain to defend against Blink though, because they have such a wide cliff to the main. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Hey guys, I've been having insane problems with TvP early game. I think i literally lose 70% of the TvP's i get matched up in before the 10 minute mark... What I would like to know most is how to hold off 3 gate stargate / 3 gate 'mofocore' / one base blink allins if you open up reaper expand (CC in main) > reactor rax > factory > fast starport. I try to scout a stargate with my reaper, but if its not a proxy stargate P usually denies scouting to his tech. If i see stargate or if im unsure, i will build an engibay after the reactor on barracks and build a turret in my mineral line. If no oracles come i get a techlab on factory for a tank, but with a 3 gate blinkstalker build i will only have 1 tank out in time. I can at most have enough marines to barely fill 2 bunkers, which i just die with to any form of blink into the main... It almost seems like one-basing is the only option left to me in this matchup, but that gets stopped by photon overcharge... halp! edit: typo edit 2: I know that theres been a discussion about TvP blink allins before this, but that was with an FE > 3 rax opening. Well there was a reason that was discussed because when you see an aggressive play IE 2 gas chrono saved up 1-2 pylons at base past 3:20 then you need to open defensively which is FE into 3 rax and Ebay if you suspect oracles lol.... 2 Rax is an aggro play meant to capitalize on getting out Meds faster and getting out on the map faster but its not as safe vs all ins...... Going 1/1/1 against Protoss is an aggresive play you either have to go 11 gas into 1/1/1 or if you go reaper expand then you have to build to what you scout because reaper expand into 1/1/1 you will never get out enough units to defend the many books of all ins in the P arsenal.... So if you insist on playing Reaper expand then you have to scout see if he has 2 gases if 3 probes in each don't second guess just go 3 Rax then count how many pylons he has and if you see that he only has 2 by 3:20 I think it is then get Ebay out ASAP to Defend against Oracle.......... If he has 1 Gas and looks to be taking an exp then you can go 1/1/1...... This is kinda the thing though .... protoss always dictates what you have to do and you can't just pick a build that is FE and do it otherwise you will fall into this loss bracket that you are talking about..... Problem is you only have so much you can build in the time these all ins hit thats why its so difficult to defend these timings you have to use a combo of Bunkers marines and when playing against blink Marauder + Conc shells helps immensely which is why you have to go 3 rax otherwise you will never have the amount of units you need to defend it and like Iaguz said its 100% critical to keep building workers units and SD and Tech while fighting these off otherwise it will get the better of you..... | ||
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DaveSprite
United States79 Posts
On January 07 2014 22:16 G-force wrote: Hey guys, I've been having insane problems with TvP early game. I think i literally lose 70% of the TvP's i get matched up in before the 10 minute mark... What I would like to know most is how to hold off 3 gate stargate / 3 gate 'mofocore' / one base blink allins if you open up reaper expand (CC in main) > reactor rax > factory > fast starport. I try to scout a stargate with my reaper, but if its not a proxy stargate P usually denies scouting to his tech. If i see stargate or if im unsure, i will build an engibay after the reactor on barracks and build a turret in my mineral line. If no oracles come i get a techlab on factory for a tank, but with a 3 gate blinkstalker build i will only have 1 tank out in time. I can at most have enough marines to barely fill 2 bunkers, which i just die with to any form of blink into the main... It almost seems like one-basing is the only option left to me in this matchup, but that gets stopped by photon overcharge... halp! edit: typo edit 2: I know that theres been a discussion about TvP blink allins before this, but that was with an FE > 3 rax opening. If you're only making the one reaper then going into the reactor, putting down the engi bay and the turret puts you way behind where you need to be in your build in preparation for the oracle. Plus he can just hold position on the other side and pick off your gas scvs. What you need to do is once your reactor finishes kick into marine production IMMEDIATELY. A supply block WILL kill you because you need to get your six marines afap. Five marines die to an oracle, six win with some losses. Since you say you build your cc in your main you should only have to defend one mineral line. Get those 6 marines to that line as fast as you possibly can in you suspect oracles, with a bunker at the front if it's the one base all in version. Keeping the reaper alive to do more scouting is literally the second most important thing outside of getting the marines out. If you don't feel safe while getting to the 6 marines, delay your starport a bit and grab a widow mine and put it on one of the edges of your mineral line. As for the blink, if you're 100% it's the one base variant my gold/plat level advise is to just ditch the low ground and turtle til stim and medivacs. Blink stalkers will abuse you trying to go back and forth between your bases on some of the current maps and this way you take minimum losses. Keep that reaper alive, and if he expands he's still behind cause he's going to have to get that base saturated after it gets built. Once you have stim and medivacs, grab a few marine/scv and send them to the cliffs of your base. Keeping tabs on the stalkers is so important since one blink backstab can ruin the game for you. Once you've found and possibly dealt with the army, go kill him. He's delayed his tech so long that hopefully his storm won't be done by 11ish minutes. | ||
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G-force
Netherlands28 Posts
@ Pirfiktshon: your right that reaper FE into 1-1-1 is supposed to do some agressive moves against a macro P. I usually do this build to follow up with a fast medivac drop or banshees against a 1 gas expanding protoss. Do your really think it's not viable against a onebase allining protoss though? I feel like pro terrans used this build to great effect against one base blink allins, but that i'm simply doing something wrong. Would skipping the reaper and going straight for reactored marine production be better? Thanks for the 3:20 2 pylon in main scout timing btw. I knew the scouting technique, but not the timing. That will defo help me out. @ DaveSprite: its not so much the oracle i tend to lose to, since i have the turret. building the engibay doesnt delay my marine production as long as I stay on only one gas early on. I usually just die to the subsequent oracle stalker / voidray stalker ball or to straight up stalker blink allins without a stargate. This is because it seems most current maps have way too many cliffs where protoss can blink in or micro his air units over. Should i simply overbuild bunkers even though i cant fill them all? also, are widow mines preferable over tanks? | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
@ Pirfiktshon: your right that reaper FE into 1-1-1 is supposed to do some agressive moves against a macro P. I usually do this build to follow up with a fast medivac drop or banshees against a 1 gas expanding protoss. Do your really think it's not viable against a onebase allining protoss though? I feel like pro terrans used this build to great effect against one base blink allins, but that i'm simply doing something wrong. Would skipping the reaper and going straight for reactored marine production be better? Actually HTOMario does that. He Finishes Rax-> reactor immediately and scouts and as soon as RaxR is done he sees what toss is doing. If aggressive build is coming out of Toss he just pumps out Marine if he sees macro play he goes 1 reaper 1 marine. Reaper to scout.... He uses this style to go into Mech and sometimes bio or Bio into mech... I think the 11 gas 1/1/1 i viable in that way ... I know DWF uses that build so I'd ask him to be 100% sure but I do not think it is a truly effective way to defend all ins and you will run into a lot of what you are now always dieing to specifically the Stargate all in and asking yourself questions as to why hahaha | ||
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G-force
Netherlands28 Posts
Also I do not know DWF. Is he active on TL, or does he stream? when you say 11 gas 1/1/1, do you mean 11 rax, 11 gas, expand into 1/1/1 or the one base allin variant? A one base 1/1/1 doesnt work anymore due to photon overcharge, does it? Thanks again! Edit: Forgot that DWF is the creator of this thread, epic fail xD | ||
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