|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Hello guys,
TvP gasfirst builds, have they gone out of fashion in HotS ? After seeing Maru in ProLeague I've been experimenting it on big 4 player maps. In the said video Maru defends against a Oracle expand, cleverly using the marines and starport to make a viking.
My question would be; what builds does this gasfirst reactor hellion opening straight up loses to? How to adapt based upon scouting?
Getting a tank out would help greatly vs certain allins, so in a sense it kinda transitions into mech afterwards? Thanks in advance.
|
On January 10 2014 04:13 Eskiya23 wrote:Hello guys, TvP gasfirst builds, have they gone out of fashion in HotS ? After seeing Maru in ProLeague I've been experimenting it on big 4 player maps. In the said video Maru defends against a Oracle expand, cleverly using the marines and starport to make a viking. My question would be; what builds does this gasfirst reactor hellion opening straight up loses to? How to adapt based upon scouting? Getting a tank out would help greatly vs certain allins, so in a sense it kinda transitions into mech afterwards? Thanks in advance.
It doesn't really "straight-up" lose to much, given that you have all of Terran tech to respond to varying things with - it's just that it needs to do a crazy amount of damage to break even and keep going into a normal game. If you kill less than 10 probes with your harass (assuming he isn't ALSO 1-basing you), you're still fairly far behind. Maru's main reason for being so successful with that play was his opponent's godawful reaction to it. Stats basically said "Hey, I scouted a gas-first harass build, you know what would be AWESOME against that? Oracles which are countered by half the tech he can produce, combined with absolutely no defense of my mineral lines. No way can this go wrong!"
|
United Kingdom31935 Posts
On January 09 2014 18:35 ZenithM wrote:
I like doing builds that I have to do damage with :D. So thrilling and interesting, that's what Terran is about. If I wanted to make a mothership core and sit on my ass, I'd play...nah rather kill myself.
Ture prime style I see :D
And thx Iaguz I will work on it TvP is so frustrating D:
|
Any opinions on the reactor first 2 reaper opening?
|
oh sorry, I read hellions instead of reapers.
1 reaper serves the same purpose as 2 reapers. That extra 50 gas not used in tech is very dangerous. You need to either use that gas for quicker tech or not get that gas and get quicker raxes. You also instantly lose to any kind of zealot / stalker / msc "pressure".
|
On January 10 2014 08:56 KingofGods wrote:
oh sorry, I read hellions instead of reapers.
1 reaper serves the same purpose as 2 reapers. That extra 50 gas not used in tech is very dangerous.
I die so often to all ins tho, I use Reaper 1 for the scout and ahve Reaper 2 scout the map for me for common locations.
Better to just go reaper reactor marines?
|
Yes because even if your second reaper scouts the proxy oracle you wont have the marine count to deal with it properly
|
That's the million dollar question in TvP, isn't it? Terran need the absolute perfect build order to combat what the protoss does. Protoss can do whatever build order they want and they will be fine against what terran do.
|
On January 10 2014 09:02 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 08:56 KingofGods wrote:
oh sorry, I read hellions instead of reapers.
1 reaper serves the same purpose as 2 reapers. That extra 50 gas not used in tech is very dangerous. I die so often to all ins tho, I use Reaper 1 for the scout and ahve Reaper 2 scout the map for me for common locations. Better to just go reaper reactor marines?
Yes. the second reaper puts a delay on getting marines out, which will earn you a loss against zealot stalker msc pokes.
If you are really worried about identifying proxies, use a reaper and an scv to scout around
|
But do you get delayed tho?
Reactor takes 50 seconds, Reaper takes 50 seconds.
Reaper > Reactor = 100 seconds before marines,
Reactor > Reaperx2 = 100 seconds before marines.
The difference is the first gives you more scouting at the cost of 50/50 extra. Should you use those 50 minerals and the SCVs mining gas to get faster economy?
|
On January 10 2014 09:53 SC2Toastie wrote:
But do you get delayed tho?
Reactor takes 50 seconds, Reaper takes 50 seconds.
Reaper > Reactor = 100 seconds before marines,
Reactor > Reaperx2 = 100 seconds before marines.
The difference is the first gives you more scouting at the cost of 50/50 extra. Should you use those 50 minerals and the SCVs mining gas to get faster economy?
Standard TvP Reaper -> Reactor -> E-bay OR additional Raxes (depending on whether it's fastest proxy Oracle) pulls out of gas either to 1 or 0 in gas after the additional 50 for the Reactor. Staying in for the extra gas will make very SLIGHT delays in both your Command Center as well as additional Depots, E-bay, and Barracks. I think it's probably map dependent as to whether or not this is actually a big enough difference to make the Oracle game-ending, but it'll be a razor-thin margin. My suggestion would be that if you want to pursue this build, do it on a map that isn't so short and/or exposed Oracles are easy to place and get into your mineral lines. Frost, Alterzim, Heavy Rain are probably good bets. I would counsel against trying it on Daedalus Point for sure.
|
The first option allows you to have a quicker reaper and let's you kite a zealot if it's coming your way.
The main difference is the extra 50 gas mined. Normally with the 1 reaper style you pull out of gas after 100 (1 reaper, 1 reactor) and that let's you build your 2nd CC faster but more importantly your 2nd rax faster. The 2nd and eventually 3rd rax is where the difference in marines comes from.
|
OK. Guess that build isn't too good. Stole it from Bomber, but never payed much attention to maps etc.
Tyty <3
|
You have to remember that Bomber plays against players that don't do 1 base allin-ish builds often (10 gate, proxy stargate, etc.). This is opposite for your ladder heroes.
|
Nono, I ment Bombers ladder stream :-) There's a lot of Protoss cheesers on ladder mind you 
|
Bomber typically plays the highest level korean players unless he is in the midst of leveling up an account. The high level Koreans that Bomber typically players on ladder are not the same as the ladder players you and I play.
|
I am meaning Bomber playing high master/low GM on NA because he needed the ladder account high enough in rank.
The VOD's are saved IIRC.
Anyways, point made, it makes no sense to argue about this
|
I do the reactor first into double reaper and highly suggest your try it out a few times before you give up on it. Your command center is actually not significatly delayed because reapers have longer build times than marines so you spend less minerals (you can rally the 16th scv to your nat and keep 3 in gas, or get it sooner after pulling one or two out of gas).
2 reapers are very effective at scouting, and can actually outright win the game if toss does not take them seriously(racking up 6-10 probe kills in tvp is almost lights out).
If you have a little apm to spare in the tvp ealry game you can really squeeze a lot of worth out of 2 reapers. However the amount of worth you can get out of them is very map dependent. Some example of moves to get probe kills:
1. Normally one reaper can come in and only get a few shots off before the stalker/msc push it away, but with two you just stay in a bit longer, and pull away the weakened reaper: really easy way for a quick probe kill.
2. On the first "lap" through into the main, you can target a mineral line probe that is farthest away from your reapers (middle of the mineral line) and kite towards that probe. You only need 3 target fires on any one probe for a kill. Easy way to kill 2-3 probes on your first lap through the main. If you use a scouting scv, you can actually pull away the toss's first units by running the scv away from the spot where the reapers or even target a probe to weaken it for the reaper.
3. Also any probes transferring to nat, or the one building the nexus, or outer pylons are easy picking.
Also if you keep reapers alive, you can do insanely fast double pronged attacks with like 8 rines and 2 reapers, and then again with stim, MM and two reapers. I think the extra 50 gas is worth the scouting and the probe kills you can rack up.
At the very worst case scenario protoss has to build 2 stalkers and a mamacore and keep both at home (twice the amout of gateway units protoss usually makes till 10 min ;p). I like to think of it as a super light contain and a very comfortable position to play from. Also transitions into factory play well as you have 100 gas 150 minerals right after your CC is thrown down. This lets u get that fuck you widowmine if they go oracle after expo
|
Also reactored reapers are great against any one base cheese as long as you scv scout, which you should be doing pvt anyway. Destroys 10 gate pressure, proxy or in base, as soon as reapers are out, and as shown by sctoastie, your rines are not delayed at all.
|
I've been playing SC2 since beta and got placed into high diamond, but stopped playing around 2012. Feeling a surge of nostalgia, I bought myself a copy of HOTS and decided to do some placement matches. Sadly I got placed into silver. Obviously my old builds are not working very well, as I tend to expand really fast (looking towards more standard plays now). I was wondering if anyone can provide a quick overview on the current Terran meta builds? I would also like to know if most Terrans are still favoring bio? I have not kept up with SC2 since 2012, and the only thing I practically know are the new units.
Thanks in advance!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
