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On August 21 2013 09:52 KingofGods wrote:
How to beat Protoss late game in TvP? Isn't that the Million Dollar question lol. The lazy, yet surprisingly accurate answer is to try and beat them early.
As for your replay, you actually played the first ~15 minutes really well. One suggestion I will make is to try to make your base layout neater, as in line up your production facilities right next to each other and same thing with supply depots. Seems like a silly and small thing but you actually get a ton more room to build more production inside your main and nat, also less likely for clunky units like tanks and thors to get stuck (obviously irrelevant in this particular game and matchup).
You got super fast upgrades which is great but only went level 2 attack first, no armor. If you went 2-2 right after one one you would of had a HUGE window to attack your opponent.
The supply blocks hurt a lot. Super supply block at 129 and again at 153 which caused your minerals to sky rocket. In situations like that you might as well throw down another command center.
You REALLY need higher tier to fight protoss collosi and eventual templars. By 15 mins you should of had about 6 vikings out already and ghost academy on the way if not finished. You made 2 fact for hellions but didn't even upgrade blue flame out of the tech lab.
oversaturation on your main (transport some of those to 3rd). Only 4 guys mining gas on third resulted in low gas count and therefore low viking and ghosts.
17 mins in game you are maxed out with no real way to break him (because no vikings or ghosts) and 3500 minerals. Make command centres, do drops to trade out your marine / marauder force for vikings and ghosts.
Thank you very much for your help, I really appreciate how quickly you responded. I think this will definitely help me in my late game as well as mid game timings.
Be very careful when trying to contain a protoss while you are maxed. If he had one forward pylon or got a warp prism out he would go and ravage your base and you not really having anything to do to stop him.
After you lost the first engagement then you started adding in more bases and CCs. If he just decided to walk across the map with his remaining forces from that fight you would have lost.
You start sacking scvs at the 32 min mark when you don't even have much of an income because your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd are completely mind out and you were slow on taking additional bases.
Again 20 scvs at 3rd on 3 pretty much mined out patches. That's the reason for your lack of income. Gotta be aware of this at all times.
Throw up sensory towers everywhere, especially on a map like Derelict. You always need to know where protoss is and coming in from what angle so you can position your units accordingly, also so he can't just ball his units to one outer expo, take it out, and run or fight if he so chooses because you will be way out of position.
Your engagements all game weren't bad, you just need to spread a little bit more to mitigate that much more of his splash.
I would say your income management was the biggest reason you lost this game. Had you been better at transferring scvs over to fresh bases faster (instead of waiting for it to completely mine out) you would of had a ton more resources to build units and easily have beat him just by war of attrition.
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On August 21 2013 05:19 vult wrote:Another TvP woe replay. http://drop.sc/354923Upon seeing 1g expand I throw down 3CC, and play standard from there. I know that he is sitting on 2b because of map and my pressure with 2 Medivacs. So I sit back and macro, until I try to poke at the front with equal upgrades. Then, I get rolled because his 3/3 finishes. I dont even know how I would have defended. I know my viking production was sub par, but I feel like it wouldn't have made a difference either way. Idk, help me out please? :D
You got caught out of position with too few vikings. You should have had 2 reactored starports, engaging his army when you have 8-10 vikings. He hasn't tried to take a third yet so no reason to be up in his face when his army will win. Honestly given 4-5 more vikings and an extra round of units you probably could have won that.
Heres a note: you had a 40 food advantage BUT 20 of that is in workers (meaning the later the game goes the better for you), another 25ish is in production facilities and at a different rally point. His army when you get caught is actually bigger then yours, better upgraded and you dont have enough vikings. No reason to sit in front of his base.
A note about econ: you squeezed in a third CC, and got all your other stuff out at the standard time. To do so u have to cut SCVs, so you mitigated a portion of your economic advantage. Delay stuff with a fast 3CC build so that it comes out without SCV cuts.
Lastly, HOTKEY YOUR ARMY! When a big fight comes, you want to target fire the colossus with vikings, kiting back with the bio to minimize the efficiency of zealots, and blanket EMP the protoss army. Its very hard to control efficiently with just your mouse!
EDIT: Here's what i mean about economy. I just checked one of my own reps: With a gasless FE, standard 3rd CC (built at 9:30ish), I had 64 SCVs at 12:20. You went 3CC and had 51(!)
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On August 19 2013 20:27 Marathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 09:17 Sajaki wrote:On August 19 2013 08:07 Marathi wrote:
Well this has been the worst season I have ever played. I made the decision at the beginning of last season to stop all-inning all my games and learn to play standard builds and had some good success with it (66% w/l with about 50 games played at plat (still all-inning TvT)).
This season I carried on with the standard builds for TvZ (Inno triple CC) and TvP (reaper expand) and it's just been awful. I have a 30-35% w/l in both matchups and I just keep losing to all sorts, allin/cheesy builds, standard macro games, weird builds where people throw down structures for no apparent reason.
I feel like my macro is good enough for plat, I feel like my micro could be a bit better when it comes to engagements I can be a bit sucky at splitting, burrowing my mines and dodging storms. My decision making is hit and miss. But I guess the point I am aiming for is what can I do to improve in general?
I told myself I would play at least 100 games this season to help practice, I've only managed about 70-80 because I have been so unmotivated to play because of record and difficulty in tvz/tvp. But this is still the most games I've ever played in one season and I just seem to be getting worse.
I look through the replays and sometimes I don't know why I lost, other times I can see why but I don't really seem to learn a lesson from it. I watch streams fairly often and lots of tournaments and it all seems so easy to the guys streaming on ladder and I don't really take anything away and think 'oh I need to do that more', etc.
My clan try to help but normally it's very game specific, I show them replay and it's normally something different everytime.
I was really hoping to get into dia or at least start facing more diamonds on ladder but this season has just been so bad that right now I just want to go back to all-inning every MU because I found it more fun and I had more success (even if it means 2rax'ing vs protoss). Sorry for the rant but I am just getting very fed up...
TLDR - How can I improve in general? You really need to post replays. Even if there are different individual things each game that are causing you to lose, viewing multiple games (with a level head) can help you identify patterns. Are you supply-blocked commonly? Do you add production too slowly? Lack scouting? Dont follow the matchup flow well (like denying protoss third base, zerg forth)? Also, do you have a wide variety of builds or do you have 1 general BO per matchup. One of the best ways to deal with the variety of builds a race can through at you is to practice one build per race yourself, that's safe and standard, and iron out all the kinks. Determine what cheeses and allins are deadly, which comps you need to adapt your comp to, etc. I play one standard BO per matchup which I stated in OP. I'll post a ton of replays tonight when I get home from work. Replays: + Show Spoiler +Just a selection of games from over the weekend g1 - TvZ http://drop.sc/354818Have bad engagement around 11:30 mark on creep without mines burrowed. Get some big supply blocks and slow at taking my third. Had upgrade advantage most of game and felt production was ok, got caught with a lot of my army out of place at the end going out for a big drop... g2 - TvP http://drop.sc/354820I scout chrono being researched and robo bay with late expo so assume immo/gw allin. Throw down total of 5 bunkers to prepare. On next scout with reaper I see robo bay down and an expo so assumed going for heavy gateway units for defense. Salvage 2 of my bunkers and get pushed through destructible rocks by immo/gw bust. g3 - TvZ http://drop.sc/354822Sends lings to my nat ramp and see they don't have speed, try to do some harass with hellions because of this. Scout roach warren and double evo. As moving out to establish 3rd roach bust comes, manage to hold without losing too much. At about 14:20 I scan and see hydra den so assume 2/2 roach/hydra timing. Immediately switch to tanks. Zerg proceeds to go ultras without seeing any of my tanks. I asked him after the game why he made a hydra den and he said just to help with drops...2/2 was really late this game. Get raped about 22min with really bad engagement on creep, thought I was really ahead after just destroying his army but zerg had economy to make 13 ultras at once TT g4 - TvZ http://drop.sc/354823This game was a win. I scout and hold failed roach/ling/bling bust. Zerg goes ranged upgrades instead of melee but doesn't make any roaches or hydras and after a bad engagement for me and another failed bust for him I take comfortable win. g5 - TvZ http://drop.sc/354824Just behind all game, behind on upgrades, bases, production, everything. Scout spire so make some turrets, he doesn't make any muta til over 5min after. Then I just get massacred everywhere by ultras/ling/bling. My TvP is even worse I think this is enough games for now...
Please help guys. TvZ and TvP replays with 'breakdown' in replay spoiler. I have 30-35% w/l in these matchups!
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How to hold 2 rax proxy reaper with gas first build (late marine)?
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does anyone know what the winrates are for master and diamondleague? Im midmaster terran and its ridiculous how hard tvp is compared to tvt and tvz. Im above 50% in both those and at the same time im like 35% in tvp. I consistently lose vs diamond protoss -_-
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On August 21 2013 23:38 Snusmumriken wrote:
does anyone know what the winrates are for master and diamondleague? Im midmaster terran and its ridiculous how hard tvp is compared to tvt and tvz. Im above 50% in both those and at the same time im like 35% in tvp. I consistently lose vs diamond protoss -_-
You need to do some heavier mid game aggression dude. That's they way it is in TvP. Even if it fails, you will have had many options and lots to learn from. My advice is not to try go lategame.
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On August 21 2013 23:38 Snusmumriken wrote:
does anyone know what the winrates are for master and diamondleague? Im midmaster terran and its ridiculous how hard tvp is compared to tvt and tvz. Im above 50% in both those and at the same time im like 35% in tvp. I consistently lose vs diamond protoss -_-
http://i.imgur.com/4MmDHmw.jpg
Mines at 1600+pts
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I think I'm going to start playing it like I did end of WoL era TvZ..
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On August 22 2013 00:07 wag_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 23:38 Snusmumriken wrote:
does anyone know what the winrates are for master and diamondleague? Im midmaster terran and its ridiculous how hard tvp is compared to tvt and tvz. Im above 50% in both those and at the same time im like 35% in tvp. I consistently lose vs diamond protoss -_-
http://i.imgur.com/4MmDHmw.jpgMines at 1600+pts
What am I looking at?
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How do you deal with a proxy gateway forge rather than double gateway?
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On August 21 2013 23:38 Snusmumriken wrote:
does anyone know what the winrates are for master and diamondleague? Im midmaster terran and its ridiculous how hard tvp is compared to tvt and tvz. Im above 50% in both those and at the same time im like 35% in tvp. I consistently lose vs diamond protoss -_-
I'm master 2200 points
32% vP,
59% vT
61% vZ
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On August 22 2013 01:06 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 00:07 wag_ wrote:On August 21 2013 23:38 Snusmumriken wrote:
does anyone know what the winrates are for master and diamondleague? Im midmaster terran and its ridiculous how hard tvp is compared to tvt and tvz. Im above 50% in both those and at the same time im like 35% in tvp. I consistently lose vs diamond protoss -_-
http://i.imgur.com/4MmDHmw.jpgMines at 1600+pts What am I looking at?
http://i.imgur.com/l0GdV8X.jpg
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On August 22 2013 02:03 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 23:38 Snusmumriken wrote:
does anyone know what the winrates are for master and diamondleague? Im midmaster terran and its ridiculous how hard tvp is compared to tvt and tvz. Im above 50% in both those and at the same time im like 35% in tvp. I consistently lose vs diamond protoss -_-
I'm master 2200 points 32% vP, 59% vT 61% vZ
Pretty much same as me.
Protoss literally has the:
most allins
strongest allins by far
easiet defence (msc)
easiest micro with lategame army
possibly easiest micro overall.
Most forgiving macro due to chornoboost.
...
its somewhat blaanced at the proscene but its fucking ridiculous in masters imo. At least for me x_x
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On August 21 2013 23:38 Snusmumriken wrote:
does anyone know what the winrates are for master and diamondleague? Im midmaster terran and its ridiculous how hard tvp is compared to tvt and tvz. Im above 50% in both those and at the same time im like 35% in tvp. I consistently lose vs diamond protoss -_-
Im low diamond and TvP is actually my best MU while i am completly lost in TvT. Most Protoss i play just do to much cheesy stuff. One guy tried to Blink Stalker all-in me, did quite some damage. Then he followed it with DTs and followed them with 2 statgates next to my main. I was loosing a lot of stuff and decided to just pull all my units/scvs for 1 desperate attack. He basicly had no units. Thats how most my TvPs go, a lot of cheesy aggression where he doesnt have any units once i reach his natural. Of course i die a lot to this pressure/all-in builds but my tendency to play way to safe ( for example, i sometimes build 3 bunkers in my nat before i even add upgrades/3rd cc) actually helps me come out ahead most of the times.
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On August 21 2013 21:48 dohgg wrote:
How to hold 2 rax proxy reaper with gas first build (late marine)?
i'm not sure if this is the best hold but i normally rallye my marine near my mineral so i can react and pull scv without loosing the marine instantly. If you go gas first your factory should always directly build a hellion and with repair and scv pull you should hold it off... after you survive the first 3 reaper i normally build 2 Marines and 1 Hellion at a time and later with medivac with delayed Cloak Banshee.
Maybe someone has better advices
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On August 21 2013 15:44 Marathi wrote:/QUOTE]
Please help guys. TvZ and TvP replays with 'breakdown' in replay spoiler. I have 30-35% w/l in these matchups!
I don't have time to watch them all right now, so I'll just break down a bit of game 3.
The reason you lost this game was because you floated 5000 minerals way before maxing. Thats literally a 100 food army of marines. If you had even half of that spent you probably could have just gone and killed him at any time.
So, onto the specifics:
Your 3rd CC is idle for almost 4 minutes. That could have been an orbital dropping mules and building an econ. Instead its a wasted investment.
Grab the gases at your natural at about eight minutes.
Throw down the starport at about 8 minutes as well, you want the medivacs for some pressure/poke.
You get supply blocked a lot in this game, try to have 2 scvs permabuilding depots when your second base is underway.
YOUR EXTRA PRODUCTION IS WICKED LATE, which is why you float 5000 minerals. The moment you begin to float, try to get up to 8 rax 2 fact 1 port asap. money in the bank is like money wasted.
Mine production was very inconsistent, even before switching to tank tech.
When you float a lot of money throw down extra orbitals.
4th CC can be started when you establish your third. ]
get armory upgrades, plating for 4M, attack for bio/tank.
Use one medivac + units to clean creep and stretch his multitasking.
When you scan and see he has that massive army, just gtfo back to base. there's no way youd ever win that fight.
EDIT: Okay game 5.
Aim for 5 barracks ASAP after double ebay. generally around 8ish minutes you want to get them up, you sit on 3 rax for too long and cannot spend your money.
You overcommit heavily to turrets. Generally you can get away with 1 per mineral line, adding more around the outskirts of your base when you want to move out.
Dont double-scan a zerg early game, especially when the first scan reveals a lair. Lair implies no pressure because he cannot afford a big econ and get an army and have lair + lairtech units if its that early in the game. Its a waste of a mule.
More critical supply blocks. Covered this in the previous rep but build depots 2 at a time constantly on 2 base, 3 on 3base, (unless you are like 100/130 for some reason). If this happens just spam depots and production to keep the money low!
Try to secure the third earlier. The thing is, you actually secured yours late and didn't have an army to defend it. Its because you are behind in production and army. So its late, but actually too early given what you had that game -- a testament to how far behind you had gotten (from macro mistakes).
The biggest issue this game was tactics. Drops are used for multiple purposes, mainly:
1) To get an army out of position *so you can push something on the map with your main army*
2) Keep an opponent on the defensive so you can expand or buy time for tech, etc.
In this game, your drops are just aerial attacks, with no other purpose. You did this twice. It would have been better to just move your army across the map and try and pressure something. In that scenario, you could have loaded up a medivac and dropped while your army pressured one of his exposed expansions. Instead, you launched two weak attacks that didn't really benefit you. You lost more than you really got.
A good thing you can do is just mass up and hit at +2 +2. You should be nearly maxed at that point in the game, and can hit zerg when he's trying to get out hive tech. You can opt for a small drop at this point, too, but only do so if it wont do as much damage to your own economy (floating money, forgetting stuff, etc).
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On August 21 2013 21:48 dohgg wrote:
How to hold 2 rax proxy reaper with gas first build (late marine)?
Gas first builds beat all reaper builds except 8 / 8 / 8.
It really comes down to micro. Try to use 3-4 scvs to tank in front of your marines. Once hellion comes out, micro that around and delay as much as possible. Once your banshee comes out, he can't really do anything anymore. Build a 2nd banshee (no need for raven because he isn't going banshee anytime soon) and have 1 at his base and 1 at home. If you know you've killed all his reapers, then go ahead and send 2nd banshee out too.
Has anyone experimented with quick viking(s) to snipe momma core? Maybe like a 1/1/1 with viking being the first unit coming out of the starport? Possibly even raven first, then viking (raven builds up energy for pdd to stops mothership core shots). Even with viking and a few marines, I can't imagine killing the momma core before it casts photon overcharge, but maybe someone better than I can make it work.
1/1/1 is far stronger than it was in WoL because no siege upgrade and cheaper clock. I believe a lot of people on Korean ladder are experimenting with it vs. protoss, at least from what I can tell watching vods.
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On August 22 2013 08:42 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 21:48 dohgg wrote:
How to hold 2 rax proxy reaper with gas first build (late marine)? Has anyone experimented with quick viking(s) to snipe momma core? Maybe like a 1/1/1 with viking being the first unit coming out of the starport? Possibly even raven first, then viking (raven builds up energy for pdd to stops mothership core shots). Even with viking and a few marines, I can't imagine killing the momma core before it casts photon overcharge, but maybe someone better than I can make it work. 1/1/1 is far stronger than it was in WoL because no siege upgrade and cheaper clock. I believe a lot of people on Korean ladder are experimenting with it vs. protoss, at least from what I can tell watching vods.
I think any good toss will cast photon overcharge on their nexus when they see their mothership core getting shot down by a viking 
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On August 22 2013 00:05 Cortza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 23:38 Snusmumriken wrote:
does anyone know what the winrates are for master and diamondleague? Im midmaster terran and its ridiculous how hard tvp is compared to tvt and tvz. Im above 50% in both those and at the same time im like 35% in tvp. I consistently lose vs diamond protoss -_-
You need to do some heavier mid game aggression dude. That's they way it is in TvP. Even if it fails, you will have had many options and lots to learn from. My advice is not to try go lategame.
I have given up going lategame and I'm at a total loss. I want to get a promotion to masters, tvz and tvt are 60% +. Just do a 150-180 food scv pull every game vs toss? Late game is ridiculous, they just spam some storms and then everything dies to some chargelots.
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Dem 3/3/3 chargelot warp ins are scary.
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EPT
