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On August 19 2013 08:07 Marathi wrote: Well this has been the worst season I have ever played. I made the decision at the beginning of last season to stop all-inning all my games and learn to play standard builds and had some good success with it (66% w/l with about 50 games played at plat (still all-inning TvT)).
This season I carried on with the standard builds for TvZ (Inno triple CC) and TvP (reaper expand) and it's just been awful. I have a 30-35% w/l in both matchups and I just keep losing to all sorts, allin/cheesy builds, standard macro games, weird builds where people throw down structures for no apparent reason.
I feel like my macro is good enough for plat, I feel like my micro could be a bit better when it comes to engagements I can be a bit sucky at splitting, burrowing my mines and dodging storms. My decision making is hit and miss. But I guess the point I am aiming for is what can I do to improve in general?
I told myself I would play at least 100 games this season to help practice, I've only managed about 70-80 because I have been so unmotivated to play because of record and difficulty in tvz/tvp. But this is still the most games I've ever played in one season and I just seem to be getting worse.
I look through the replays and sometimes I don't know why I lost, other times I can see why but I don't really seem to learn a lesson from it. I watch streams fairly often and lots of tournaments and it all seems so easy to the guys streaming on ladder and I don't really take anything away and think 'oh I need to do that more', etc.
My clan try to help but normally it's very game specific, I show them replay and it's normally something different everytime.
I was really hoping to get into dia or at least start facing more diamonds on ladder but this season has just been so bad that right now I just want to go back to all-inning every MU because I found it more fun and I had more success (even if it means 2rax'ing vs protoss). Sorry for the rant but I am just getting very fed up...
TLDR - How can I improve in general?
You really need to post replays. Even if there are different individual things each game that are causing you to lose, viewing multiple games (with a level head) can help you identify patterns. Are you supply-blocked commonly? Do you add production too slowly? Lack scouting? Dont follow the matchup flow well (like denying protoss third base, zerg forth)?
Also, do you have a wide variety of builds or do you have 1 general BO per matchup. One of the best ways to deal with the variety of builds a race can through at you is to practice one build per race yourself, that's safe and standard, and iron out all the kinks. Determine what cheeses and allins are deadly, which comps you need to adapt your comp to, etc.
I play one standard BO per matchup which I stated in OP. I'll post a ton of replays tonight when I get home from work.
g1 - TvZ http://drop.sc/354818 Have bad engagement around 11:30 mark on creep without mines burrowed. Get some big supply blocks and slow at taking my third. Had upgrade advantage most of game and felt production was ok, got caught with a lot of my army out of place at the end going out for a big drop...
g2 - TvP http://drop.sc/354820 I scout chrono being researched and robo bay with late expo so assume immo/gw allin. Throw down total of 5 bunkers to prepare. On next scout with reaper I see robo bay down and an expo so assumed going for heavy gateway units for defense. Salvage 2 of my bunkers and get pushed through destructible rocks by immo/gw bust.
g3 - TvZ http://drop.sc/354822 Sends lings to my nat ramp and see they don't have speed, try to do some harass with hellions because of this. Scout roach warren and double evo. As moving out to establish 3rd roach bust comes, manage to hold without losing too much. At about 14:20 I scan and see hydra den so assume 2/2 roach/hydra timing. Immediately switch to tanks. Zerg proceeds to go ultras without seeing any of my tanks. I asked him after the game why he made a hydra den and he said just to help with drops...2/2 was really late this game. Get raped about 22min with really bad engagement on creep, thought I was really ahead after just destroying his army but zerg had economy to make 13 ultras at once TT
g4 - TvZ http://drop.sc/354823 This game was a win. I scout and hold failed roach/ling/bling bust. Zerg goes ranged upgrades instead of melee but doesn't make any roaches or hydras and after a bad engagement for me and another failed bust for him I take comfortable win.
g5 - TvZ http://drop.sc/354824 Just behind all game, behind on upgrades, bases, production, everything. Scout spire so make some turrets, he doesn't make any muta til over 5min after. Then I just get massacred everywhere by ultras/ling/bling.
My TvP is even worse I think this is enough games for now...
On August 19 2013 18:04 saaaa wrote: As a meching terran do i need to go for a double CC after Gas First Opening in TvT?
I'm not sure about this because with mech my main problem is gas and not minerals and i normally can not land my 3rd CC so fast because of the risk to get dropped and marines take out a CC really fast. Isn't it better to delay my 3rd CC after my additional Facs or do i need this addiitional income for turrets etc?
If you scout your opponent being really greedy and therefor not able to punish your early 3rd, I'd say go for it (or try to go kill him), but apart from that I'd say you're better off adding more Factories first. As Mech is rather slow, it's hard to defend many bases with just few units, so you want to gather some stuff to be able to hold a 3rd. If you're just afraid of drops, a reactored Factory cranking out Mines is fine though, which would mean maybe just 1 more Fac before the 3rd.
Yeah i think so too but most pro's play different they normally always go for double cc after a gas first opening. Maybe i need this to catch up in eco? I saw most of them switch back to Tank+Marine after his gas first attack to defend anything and also be able to place a 3rd base before the 9:00 min mark but i guess this isn't really good for mech players because you cut in your hellion production.
Please note: The guy was random, hence the buildings at the ramp. Can someone please look at this and give me some tips about how to eff-ing hold this? I was playing the Demuslim build where I pull scvs out of gas after 100 (reaper + reactor). Once I scouted the twilight council, my plan was to get a tank out asap, thats why I put down the second gas at that point. Was the third rax too much? Bunkers too late? Some other things?
Thanks!
Thanks krooked for your response. Did anyone else look at it? Any other suggestions? Also, could a High Diamond or Masters player post a replay of a good hold against this kind of one-base blink stalker all-in?
Please note: The guy was random, hence the buildings at the ramp. Can someone please look at this and give me some tips about how to eff-ing hold this? I was playing the Demuslim build where I pull scvs out of gas after 100 (reaper + reactor). Once I scouted the twilight council, my plan was to get a tank out asap, thats why I put down the second gas at that point. Was the third rax too much? Bunkers too late? Some other things?
Thanks!
Thanks krooked for your response. Did anyone else look at it? Any other suggestions? Also, could a High Diamond or Masters player post a replay of a good hold against this kind of one-base blink stalker all-in?
There was a pretty recent game where QXC played a Korean Protoss on Bel'Shir, and his hold was textbook, I'll try and hunt the VoD for you.
Please note: The guy was random, hence the buildings at the ramp. Can someone please look at this and give me some tips about how to eff-ing hold this? I was playing the Demuslim build where I pull scvs out of gas after 100 (reaper + reactor). Once I scouted the twilight council, my plan was to get a tank out asap, thats why I put down the second gas at that point. Was the third rax too much? Bunkers too late? Some other things?
Thanks!
Thanks krooked for your response. Did anyone else look at it? Any other suggestions? Also, could a High Diamond or Masters player post a replay of a good hold against this kind of one-base blink stalker all-in?
I don't know about the "perfect" response but building placement is crucial against blink all ins so I hope this diagram helps. http://i.imgur.com/XPDhvoB.jpg
Dotted line is where he can blink. If he just tries to hit your cc from the low ground or blinks up in there just repel him while blink is on cooldown, can keep 1 scv closer to that cliff to check and give you time to evacuate the south bunker to fight north with all your forces. Don't try to chase him after he went to low ground, always fight when blink is on cooldown. Blinking anywhere else is sucidal for him as scvs would block the shit out of him. If you ever lose a bunker rebuild immediately
Look at your replay again and select your producing buildings to see if they are pumping out units constantly, could you have spent your money faster? would've gone back to mining gas faster helped? And the obvious, scv and reaper were afk while you got destroyed, but what can you expect from an underpayed construction worker and an ex-con.
But generally, if you open bio (no factory for widowmines, etc), do you try to rush a tank out or do you skip that and defend with pure bio / scv and try getting medivacs asap?
On August 20 2013 10:25 pali_ wrote: Haha, like the last line! Thanks to both of you!!
But generally, if you open bio (no factory for widowmines, etc), do you try to rush a tank out or do you skip that and defend with pure bio / scv and try getting medivacs asap?
If I'm going with Innovation's fast 3CC build (which is my preferred one against protoss because macro that teaches protoss the true meaning of "Power Overwhelming" is my fave), I'd only have bio at the timings that people are talking about here, so I'd have to defend with just bio. I could throw a Factory down in the back of my base but I feel like if I'm feeling like I'm holding off pressure, I'm gonna go WM because TL + Siege Tank = 70 seconds, WM = 40 seconds and I'm just trying to stabilize. Also, I wouldn't swap off any of my already existing tech labs because I would be going for marauders anyway.
Assume I play bio against mech. I contain him on two bases for some time, eventually he takes his third and has too many tanks for me to push in. So, I do an air transition, to viking/bc (maybe this is a mistake and it should be viking/raven?). This often gives ma a win. But sometimes the opponent manages to get a good Thor count. What to do at that point? Fight Thors with my BCs? Switch back to more marauders?
tl;dr; After air transition, how to approach tank/thor composition.
On August 20 2013 20:58 crow_mw wrote: Dear TL members, a short TvT question.
Assume I play bio against mech. I contain him on two bases for some time, eventually he takes his third and has too many tanks for me to push in. So, I do an air transition, to viking/bc (maybe this is a mistake and it should be viking/raven?). This often gives ma a win. But sometimes the opponent manages to get a good Thor count. What to do at that point? Fight Thors with my BCs? Switch back to more marauders?
tl;dr; After air transition, how to approach tank/thor composition.
Yamato all of the Thors, but be sure to include a hefty side helping of Ravens for PDD. PDD will block Thor missiles, so your BCs get free reign on the Thor line even after they finish Yamato'ing everything. You only really need a few BCs at the core of the air army, an equal number of Ravens, and the rest Vikings. It's almost impossible to trade efficiently against a well-managed SkyTerran fleet with sufficient Ravens because if PDD doesn't nullify all of your attacks, Seeker Missile will end you in a hurry while the BCs are laughing at anything that tries to go up against their massive health+armor.
On August 20 2013 20:58 crow_mw wrote: Dear TL members, a short TvT question.
Assume I play bio against mech. I contain him on two bases for some time, eventually he takes his third and has too many tanks for me to push in. So, I do an air transition, to viking/bc (maybe this is a mistake and it should be viking/raven?). This often gives ma a win. But sometimes the opponent manages to get a good Thor count. What to do at that point? Fight Thors with my BCs? Switch back to more marauders?
tl;dr; After air transition, how to approach tank/thor composition.
Yamato all of the Thors, but be sure to include a hefty side helping of Ravens for PDD. PDD will block Thor missiles, so your BCs get free reign on the Thor line even after they finish Yamato'ing everything. You only really need a few BCs at the core of the air army, an equal number of Ravens, and the rest Vikings. It's almost impossible to trade efficiently against a well-managed SkyTerran fleet with sufficient Ravens because if PDD doesn't nullify all of your attacks, Seeker Missile will end you in a hurry while the BCs are laughing at anything that tries to go up against their massive health+armor.
But doesn't PDD not apply to the altered thor attack, which the terran should probably be using anyways
On August 20 2013 20:58 crow_mw wrote: Dear TL members, a short TvT question.
Assume I play bio against mech. I contain him on two bases for some time, eventually he takes his third and has too many tanks for me to push in. So, I do an air transition, to viking/bc (maybe this is a mistake and it should be viking/raven?). This often gives ma a win. But sometimes the opponent manages to get a good Thor count. What to do at that point? Fight Thors with my BCs? Switch back to more marauders?
tl;dr; After air transition, how to approach tank/thor composition.
Yamato all of the Thors, but be sure to include a hefty side helping of Ravens for PDD. PDD will block Thor missiles, so your BCs get free reign on the Thor line even after they finish Yamato'ing everything. You only really need a few BCs at the core of the air army, an equal number of Ravens, and the rest Vikings. It's almost impossible to trade efficiently against a well-managed SkyTerran fleet with sufficient Ravens because if PDD doesn't nullify all of your attacks, Seeker Missile will end you in a hurry while the BCs are laughing at anything that tries to go up against their massive health+armor.
But doesn't PDD not apply to the altered thor attack, which the terran should probably be using anyways
Yamato + straight up fight and BC's will wreck Thors. A 3/3 Thor loses to a 0/0 BC even without Yamato in either attack mode. And don't stop making bio either, the air transition just gives you a way to beat your opponents army in a straight up fight, you still need to be abusing his immobility / denying expansions ect, and you'll need something on the ground to deal with a possible widow mine switch (preferably tanks, but bio is better than nothing).
Upon seeing 1g expand I throw down 3CC, and play standard from there. I know that he is sitting on 2b because of map and my pressure with 2 Medivacs. So I sit back and macro, until I try to poke at the front with equal upgrades. Then, I get rolled because his 3/3 finishes.
I dont even know how I would have defended. I know my viking production was sub par, but I feel like it wouldn't have made a difference either way. Idk, help me out please? :D
Hit when your 2-2 or even 2-1 finishes. That's usually when the protoss don't have 3-3 finished yet and when they usually try to transition to templars so they will be at their weakest. I've been doing my build so that I have ghosts for the 2-2 timing and this has helped A LOT. Bring scvs to if you want to guarantee you win.
Your units were way too clumped up. Neo Planet is hard because of all those chokes but you still have to try and spread. Kite away from his coloosi lasers as you peel away his zealots.
Here are my last 2 tvps where I literally just sat there and macroed after my initial widow mine drop. One replay it did a ton of damage (killing 10 probes, the other it did nothing). One replay I didn't hit the 2-2 window too well because his zealot runby delayed me a bit but I believe I still hit him when his 3-3 wasn't finished yet.
After I hit the emps, I just stimmed my units and literally stopped microing (note one replay where my vikings were just chillinging in the back not even attacking).
Can some one please help me with my late game tvp? This is usually one of the most frustrating points in a game for me simply because I usually end up with superior upgrades as well as a better economy yet I still end up losing. If anyone would take the time to watch my replay and be kind enough to tell me how to improve and be able to win big engagements I would greatly appreciate. Also sorry if I posted this in the improper place. Link: http://drop.sc/354952
How to beat Protoss late game in TvP? Isn't that the Million Dollar question lol. The lazy, yet surprisingly accurate answer is to try and beat them early.
As for your replay, you actually played the first ~15 minutes really well. One suggestion I will make is to try to make your base layout neater, as in line up your production facilities right next to each other and same thing with supply depots. Seems like a silly and small thing but you actually get a ton more room to build more production inside your main and nat, also less likely for clunky units like tanks and thors to get stuck (obviously irrelevant in this particular game and matchup).
You got super fast upgrades which is great but only went level 2 attack first, no armor. If you went 2-2 right after one one you would of had a HUGE window to attack your opponent.
The supply blocks hurt a lot. Super supply block at 129 and again at 153 which caused your minerals to sky rocket. In situations like that you might as well throw down another command center.
You REALLY need higher tier to fight protoss collosi and eventual templars. By 15 mins you should of had about 6 vikings out already and ghost academy on the way if not finished. You made 2 fact for hellions but didn't even upgrade blue flame out of the tech lab.
oversaturation on your main (transport some of those to 3rd). Only 4 guys mining gas on third resulted in low gas count and therefore low viking and ghosts.
17 mins in game you are maxed out with no real way to break him (because no vikings or ghosts) and 3500 minerals. Make command centres, do drops to trade out your marine / marauder force for vikings and ghosts.
Be very careful when trying to contain a protoss while you are maxed. If he had one forward pylon or got a warp prism out he would go and ravage your base and you not really having anything to do to stop him.
After you lost the first engagement then you started adding in more bases and CCs. If he just decided to walk across the map with his remaining forces from that fight you would have lost.
You start sacking scvs at the 32 min mark when you don't even have much of an income because your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd are completely mind out and you were slow on taking additional bases.
Again 20 scvs at 3rd on 3 pretty much mined out patches. That's the reason for your lack of income. Gotta be aware of this at all times.
Throw up sensory towers everywhere, especially on a map like Derelict. You always need to know where protoss is and coming in from what angle so you can position your units accordingly, also so he can't just ball his units to one outer expo, take it out, and run or fight if he so chooses because you will be way out of position.
Your engagements all game weren't bad, you just need to spread a little bit more to mitigate that much more of his splash.
I would say your income management was the biggest reason you lost this game. Had you been better at transferring scvs over to fresh bases faster (instead of waiting for it to completely mine out) you would of had a ton more resources to build units and easily have beat him just by war of attrition.
On August 21 2013 06:36 KingofGods wrote: Hit when your 2-2 or even 2-1 finishes. That's usually when the protoss don't have 3-3 finished yet and when they usually try to transition to templars so they will be at their weakest. I've been doing my build so that I have ghosts for the 2-2 timing and this has helped A LOT. Bring scvs to if you want to guarantee you win.
Your units were way too clumped up. Neo Planet is hard because of all those chokes but you still have to try and spread. Kite away from his coloosi lasers as you peel away his zealots.
Here are my last 2 tvps where I literally just sat there and macroed after my initial widow mine drop. One replay it did a ton of damage (killing 10 probes, the other it did nothing). One replay I didn't hit the 2-2 window too well because his zealot runby delayed me a bit but I believe I still hit him when his 3-3 wasn't finished yet.
After I hit the emps, I just stimmed my units and literally stopped microing (note one replay where my vikings were just chillinging in the back not even attacking).
Actually you won those games because you macroed good but also because these protosses were really really bad and had their ht clumped up with the rest of the army. Usually HTs are behind the army and well spreaded, no way you can win like that. On the newkirk replay the toss was so bad he didn't even knew that you were attacking until your emps hits his army
EPT
Thanks to both of you!!
