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On March 04 2013 16:15 FireMonkey wrote:
i dont know if this should go in strat or general. but does 'coaching' actually help a player? as far as i know the pro player will just tell you to build probes and give build orders you should do which you can just look up on youtube and liquidpedia for free anyways. ive never had it nor do i intend on having it so maybe someone who has can confirm.
I saw a post on sc2 forums about it and someone said that he pictures a babysitter figure reading a newspaper and just saying every 17 seconds 'build probe'
have you improved after this? how so? how is it any differant from having a friend teaching you how to play? how does it differ your play from looking up a build/playstyle? what progress thus far have you made because of it?
discuss
A good coach won't just tell you to build probes and give buildorders... Although, I don't see that having a coach is useful below diamond, although I already have access to good information and mentalities.
They should be analyising your biggest problems, mentally, mechanically and in game sense and helping you to improve. A good coach will respond to what you tell them you want.
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On March 09 2013 05:15 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 04:43 U_G_L_Y wrote:
But a coach can't help me be more coordinated, a better multitasker, or remember to do things that I KNOW that I should have done 2 minutes ago. That's actually incorrect. If you don't know how to fix these things, then no amount of your own work would fix the problems. A good coach would be able to be more exact in noticing your flaws and go even farther, providing specific and proven exercises to do (that you didn't know about) in order to train your multitasking. Provide options on how to improve coordination. Hell there are plenty of training exercises that the proper coach can provide that will help you to remember things (see day9's newbie dailies, most of them revolve around one of the many forms of teaching memory and prioritizing).
My wife has tried coaching me to lock the doors at night, take out the garbage on Thursday night, but I still can't remember to do those things consistently, either. And she is really good at it 
If you think a coach can help me to pay attention and do the things I have been trying to do for 15 years, by all means I will pay for it; I just don't see evidence that they can. Only a LOT of CONSISTENT repetition can help that. Or perhaps a brain transplant.
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coaching can supplement practice, but it will never replace practice.
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Well is there anyone who was just an average scrub (master or below) who took coaching and then become pro?
also practice partners dont count
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Coaching helps the player play more games which = more practice = better skill
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On March 09 2013 13:33 FireMonkey wrote:
Well is there anyone who was just an average scrub (master or below) who took coaching and then become pro?
also practice partners dont count
That's pretty irrelevant for the arguement
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On March 09 2013 14:47 ROOTMinigun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 13:33 FireMonkey wrote:
Well is there anyone who was just an average scrub (master or below) who took coaching and then become pro?
also practice partners dont count That's pretty irrelevant for the arguement
yeah i know, the main point has seemingly been proven so im just wondering
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Coaching is only worth it if you don't know why you're not improving. If you already know how to improve then it's a matter of practice.
But tbh unless you're in GM it's pretty damn easy to find someone better than you to look at your games and tell you why you're not improving. Basically free coaching.
I don't see why you'd pay a pro player to help you improve, unless you're trying to get to that level of play. For most of us, a decent masters level player will suffice, and there are plenty of those around. Basically if you didn't make this thread, but instead made a thread seeking for a masters level player to spare an hour or two to help you, as long as you sound genuine you'll probably find someone.
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On March 09 2013 12:06 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 05:15 Noobity wrote:On March 09 2013 04:43 U_G_L_Y wrote:
But a coach can't help me be more coordinated, a better multitasker, or remember to do things that I KNOW that I should have done 2 minutes ago. That's actually incorrect. If you don't know how to fix these things, then no amount of your own work would fix the problems. A good coach would be able to be more exact in noticing your flaws and go even farther, providing specific and proven exercises to do (that you didn't know about) in order to train your multitasking. Provide options on how to improve coordination. Hell there are plenty of training exercises that the proper coach can provide that will help you to remember things (see day9's newbie dailies, most of them revolve around one of the many forms of teaching memory and prioritizing). My wife has tried coaching me to lock the doors at night, take out the garbage on Thursday night, but I still can't remember to do those things consistently, either. And she is really good at it If you think a coach can help me to pay attention and do the things I have been trying to do for 15 years, by all means I will pay for it; I just don't see evidence that they can. Only a LOT of CONSISTENT repetition can help that. Or perhaps a brain transplant.
I thought we were talking about coaching..... you realize coahes aren't supposed to make you have better mechanics very quickly right? they're sort of for every OTHER aspect of the game... like telling you what the best way to think about making decisions with your garbage can is so that the dump truck doesn't catch you off guard with rubbishvac drops.
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On March 09 2013 16:43 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 14:47 ROOTMinigun wrote:On March 09 2013 13:33 FireMonkey wrote:
Well is there anyone who was just an average scrub (master or below) who took coaching and then become pro?
also practice partners dont count That's pretty irrelevant for the arguement yeah i know, the main point has seemingly been proven so im just wondering
oh, then no I don't think so to answer your question
On March 09 2013 12:06 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 05:15 Noobity wrote:On March 09 2013 04:43 U_G_L_Y wrote:
But a coach can't help me be more coordinated, a better multitasker, or remember to do things that I KNOW that I should have done 2 minutes ago. That's actually incorrect. If you don't know how to fix these things, then no amount of your own work would fix the problems. A good coach would be able to be more exact in noticing your flaws and go even farther, providing specific and proven exercises to do (that you didn't know about) in order to train your multitasking. Provide options on how to improve coordination. Hell there are plenty of training exercises that the proper coach can provide that will help you to remember things (see day9's newbie dailies, most of them revolve around one of the many forms of teaching memory and prioritizing). My wife has tried coaching me to lock the doors at night, take out the garbage on Thursday night, but I still can't remember to do those things consistently, either. And she is really good at it If you think a coach can help me to pay attention and do the things I have been trying to do for 15 years, by all means I will pay for it; I just don't see evidence that they can. Only a LOT of CONSISTENT repetition can help that. Or perhaps a brain transplant.
wat, that has nothing to do with anything
and not to derail the thread too much, if you cared more about it, I guarantee you would remember to do it
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To be honest, i don't think coaching helps because listening to your coach takes your mind off of thinking about the game on your own What I do when i teach people is i play against them. So if you're silver, try to get your coach to play against you at a diamond level. For me, I played HoTS beta, which was difficult in that there were new strategies, and that all the players in gold+ in beta were high masters WoL. And i have to say that helped me grow as a player. Funny thing is, im diamond WoL. And after months of HoTS, WoL is just a breeze, especially with diamond players.
So yeah. The best way to learn the game is to play the game. Play against someone who will easily defeat you, but not so bad that you don't get a chance to realize what hes doing and what you're doing wrong. Ask your coach if you can 1v1 him, and do it a lot. He will crush you every time, until one day, when you will have an even game with him and realize how much you've improved
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On March 10 2013 00:10 ROOTMinigun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 16:43 FireMonkey wrote:On March 09 2013 14:47 ROOTMinigun wrote:On March 09 2013 13:33 FireMonkey wrote:
Well is there anyone who was just an average scrub (master or below) who took coaching and then become pro?
also practice partners dont count That's pretty irrelevant for the arguement yeah i know, the main point has seemingly been proven so im just wondering oh, then no I don't think so to answer your question Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 12:06 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 09 2013 05:15 Noobity wrote:On March 09 2013 04:43 U_G_L_Y wrote:
But a coach can't help me be more coordinated, a better multitasker, or remember to do things that I KNOW that I should have done 2 minutes ago. That's actually incorrect. If you don't know how to fix these things, then no amount of your own work would fix the problems. A good coach would be able to be more exact in noticing your flaws and go even farther, providing specific and proven exercises to do (that you didn't know about) in order to train your multitasking. Provide options on how to improve coordination. Hell there are plenty of training exercises that the proper coach can provide that will help you to remember things (see day9's newbie dailies, most of them revolve around one of the many forms of teaching memory and prioritizing). My wife has tried coaching me to lock the doors at night, take out the garbage on Thursday night, but I still can't remember to do those things consistently, either. And she is really good at it If you think a coach can help me to pay attention and do the things I have been trying to do for 15 years, by all means I will pay for it; I just don't see evidence that they can. Only a LOT of CONSISTENT repetition can help that. Or perhaps a brain transplant. wat, that has nothing to do with anything and not to derail the thread too much, if you cared more about it, I guarantee you would remember to do it
I don't think that derails the thread at all Minigun. I think that's a very important thing to be aware of. In fact, I'd say it is a better answer to the argument than anything else: "If you care about it, it does actually help."
I think a lot of people don't seem to understand exactly how a truly effective coaching session for any activity works. The most effective way to teach anyone (I have no facts about this, you're welcome to say it's an opinion) is to lead student towards a conclusion that will help them, or one that will show them that what they're so adamant about doing will hurt them. This means, primarily, that to tell a student "when they do this you need to do this" is less effective than saying "when they do this, what are their strengths? what are their weaknesses? you don't know their weaknesses, then what do you think they could be? there's a bunch of tanks, how are they most effective? so if they need to siege to be effective, what does that mean? so if they're immobile, what's a good option for taking them out?" Now some players just want builds and to make sure they're doing things right, which is cool, it works for most players, keeps them happy and gives them some information, but the player being asked to come to these conclusions themselves learns more about how to make decisions than simply what the decisions are. This means most importantly that the coaching is harder for the student to utilize, but more effective once understood.
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I'm going to give my own experience. I used to contemplate coaching a lot, but now I realize I was focusing on the wrong things.
Just focus on your mechanics and you will rocket forward much faster than if you were focusing on minutiae. You focus on being faster, more efficient, and incorporating actions in a logical way, and everything will fall into place. You play like this and you'll start to realize the formality of builds. And you'll definitely appreciate the game more.
To answer your question another way - no, coaching is not worth it if you are looking to improve. For zero dollars you can open a progamer's stream, and learn enough about gameflow to get you started.
But if you are not the highest tier of player, and you'd like to support your favorite progamers and learn a bit at the same time (gain a bit of a pro-level perspective), then by all means, consider coaching.
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On March 10 2013 01:07 Qwyn wrote:
I'm going to give my own experience. I used to contemplate coaching a lot, but now I realize I was focusing on the wrong things.
Just focus on your mechanics and you will rocket forward much faster than if you were focusing on minutiae. You focus on being faster, more efficient, and incorporating actions in a logical way, and everything will fall into place. You play like this and you'll start to realize the formality of builds. And you'll definitely appreciate the game more.
To answer your question another way - no, coaching is not worth it if you are looking to improve. For zero dollars you can open a progamer's stream, and learn enough about gameflow to get you started.
But if you are not the highest tier of player, and you'd like to support your favorite progamers and learn a bit at the same time (gain a bit of a pro-level perspective), then by all means, consider coaching.
I disagree 100%. I have way too many testimonials from people messaging me after telling how much it helped and how much they have improved.
Watching a stream and getting someone to 1 on 1 coach you isn't even comparable.
On March 10 2013 00:58 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 00:10 ROOTMinigun wrote:On March 09 2013 16:43 FireMonkey wrote:On March 09 2013 14:47 ROOTMinigun wrote:On March 09 2013 13:33 FireMonkey wrote:
Well is there anyone who was just an average scrub (master or below) who took coaching and then become pro?
also practice partners dont count That's pretty irrelevant for the arguement yeah i know, the main point has seemingly been proven so im just wondering oh, then no I don't think so to answer your question On March 09 2013 12:06 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 09 2013 05:15 Noobity wrote:On March 09 2013 04:43 U_G_L_Y wrote:
But a coach can't help me be more coordinated, a better multitasker, or remember to do things that I KNOW that I should have done 2 minutes ago. That's actually incorrect. If you don't know how to fix these things, then no amount of your own work would fix the problems. A good coach would be able to be more exact in noticing your flaws and go even farther, providing specific and proven exercises to do (that you didn't know about) in order to train your multitasking. Provide options on how to improve coordination. Hell there are plenty of training exercises that the proper coach can provide that will help you to remember things (see day9's newbie dailies, most of them revolve around one of the many forms of teaching memory and prioritizing). My wife has tried coaching me to lock the doors at night, take out the garbage on Thursday night, but I still can't remember to do those things consistently, either. And she is really good at it If you think a coach can help me to pay attention and do the things I have been trying to do for 15 years, by all means I will pay for it; I just don't see evidence that they can. Only a LOT of CONSISTENT repetition can help that. Or perhaps a brain transplant. wat, that has nothing to do with anything and not to derail the thread too much, if you cared more about it, I guarantee you would remember to do it I don't think that derails the thread at all Minigun. I think that's a very important thing to be aware of. In fact, I'd say it is a better answer to the argument than anything else: "If you care about it, it does actually help." I think a lot of people don't seem to understand exactly how a truly effective coaching session for any activity works. The most effective way to teach anyone (I have no facts about this, you're welcome to say it's an opinion) is to lead student towards a conclusion that will help them, or one that will show them that what they're so adamant about doing will hurt them. This means, primarily, that to tell a student "when they do this you need to do this" is less effective than saying "when they do this, what are their strengths? what are their weaknesses? you don't know their weaknesses, then what do you think they could be? there's a bunch of tanks, how are they most effective? so if they need to siege to be effective, what does that mean? so if they're immobile, what's a good option for taking them out?" Now some players just want builds and to make sure they're doing things right, which is cool, it works for most players, keeps them happy and gives them some information, but the player being asked to come to these conclusions themselves learns more about how to make decisions than simply what the decisions are. This means most importantly that the coaching is harder for the student to utilize, but more effective once understood.
That's true.
The biggest problem I run into in the lessons, is just there's not enough time. 1 hour is a very limited amount of time to work with. Starcraft 2 is not a simple game whatsoever, and explaining how to defend a certain build can alone take quite a bit of time. But yeah, coaching in the way you explained is definitely the most helpful way.
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I've been coached pretty much by different people but I've never paid for it, and it's no progamers.
From different people i've got some one hour coaching, and it's pretty nice. It depends alot on the coach tho, some people just confused me and I didnt follow what they told me to anyway.
Right now I'm in a really good spot tho, I've befriended a high master dude who helps me daily and I'm pretty sure I got into masters because of him :p The point is that having someone helping you out is always good.
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I strongly believe that coaching gets better and better the higher, more skilled you already are.
Sc2 is such a complicated game. that basic macro mechanics, and basic build order strategies take a long time to absorb.
Once you have the basics down. like, lets say top 8 master. can you really get into the nitty gritty details of sc2. This is when I think coaching becomes gold.
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I think coaching is a bad description for what a SC2 coach is. It should be called Tutoring or Teaching. I think a coach is someone who leads a team or small group in an activity. He motivates them and keeps them headed in the right direction. While offering his experience as a guide. Coaches are good for pro teams.
A teacher on the other hand would give you instruction on how to do things. From the basics to the most advanced concepts. This involves long hours of instruction.
A Tutor would help you understand concepts you've already learned. They would give you new ways of looking at them and reinforce important ideas. And if you just can't get it they would help by trying to simplify the concept for you making it easier to understand.
I think most players are looking for Tutoring. Especially if they are willing to pay by the hour for only a short time. You'll get the most benefit out of this if you already done the most you could do on your own or with a teacher.
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I think it can help a lot. But I don't think it's worth money unless you're already at a very high level. There is a lot of master players out there who can do a few hours\games for free, but as has been repeated, you have to put the extra hours into it.
What's very helpful for low league players is some direction in match-ups, and this can be given by almost any master player. And then with some intervals between games (e.g. a few days or weeks) review how the student has interpreted these guidelines and how they are solving the problems they are facing, and then give them slightly narrower guidelines and pointers on how to make their play even better. I think it is very important to give players opportunity to 'think for themselves'.
Of course, this has to be preceeded by 'Probes & Pylons'.
In my opinion, it's not worth paying a professional player to get these advices, as any active master player should be able to have good enough understanding to provide them. However, their technique of coaching can definately vary a lot.
Getting coaching lessons is however a great gesture to support your favourite player, but if you're young and in difficult economic position, I would recommend not to buy coaching, especially not expecting a phenomenal increase in skill automatically. Most things you spend money on gives you something definite, but coaching really depends on how much you put into it. and does not really guarantee you anything but an hour session of conversation (I don't mean anything bad about pro-gamers, but eventually it's up to the student to get the most value out of the session.).
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yes it helps. worth it? depends how wealthy you are and how much the coaching is of course. from what i've seen how much some players charge it just seems ridiculous. there are players of the same level who would do it for 1/5 of the money.. but then again I think most people want coaching from a specific player because they like him.
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On March 04 2013 16:15 FireMonkey wrote:
i dont know if this should go in strat or general. but does 'coaching' actually help a player? as far as i know the pro player will just tell you to build probes and give build orders you should do which you can just look up on youtube and liquidpedia for free anyways. ive never had it nor do i intend on having it so maybe someone who has can confirm.
I saw a post on sc2 forums about it and someone said that he pictures a babysitter figure reading a newspaper and just saying every 17 seconds 'build probe'
have you improved after this? how so? how is it any differant from having a friend teaching you how to play? how does it differ your play from looking up a build/playstyle? what progress thus far have you made because of it?
discuss
I think it plateaus at a certain level. Perhaps platinum or below can benefit by learning the basic tips/tricks/mechanics but after that I think it is pretty difficult (for the average joe shmo) to get to the next level. It's like training someone people to be a concert pianist - either you have it or you don't. For instance, in my situation, I've played the game since 98' and I'm just stubborn with hotkeys and strategies (even if there are better more more efficient ones out there). I'm always a mech player, similar to GoOdy, and even if I knew going bio was better, I usually go mech out of principle. I feel so much more vindicated winning an hour long PvT game going mech than winning 10 straight games going bio!
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EPT
