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renoB
United States170 Posts
I took the lesson to learn a build order against terran and was able to extrapolate what I learned into all 3 matchups. For $40 I'd say it was completely worth it, and in fact I've been contemplating doing a lesson with minigun when hots pops to get an edge. If your play is stagnant, I would definitely suggest it, but if you're still learning new things every day watching your replays and such, it's probably not necessary (although it will help). | ||
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thezanursic
5500 Posts
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Emporium
England162 Posts
I think the reason is that they are confusing 'coaching' with ' a specific way to coach'. By definition in everything we have ever done to improve ourselves as humans, there has been someone who has thought of something( not necesarily exclusively) and has coached others to this idea/point of view/explanantion, regardless of how morally correct it is or even if it is correct intrinsically with its subject. Alot of people may have been coached badly or in the wrong way to themselves, or they themselves are not accepting of coaches, but, neither of these points quantify that coaching is bad or not beneficial, just that they need to look at how they went about improving and whether this was correct, or if in truth( which i believe) the way that it was done was wrong and thus they need to take another approach. As with anything, if you want to improve in starcraft the best way to go about it is to use the best abilities you have and apply these to it. So for some it is rote memorisation and constant and rigourous training of a specific build, for others it may be the fact that they are very fluid in terms of their play style, reactive and responsive. I guess the only condition I would add to that final point is that these are specific examples to show extremes and as such not wholly one correct way. | ||
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Obamanation666
United States70 Posts
I was stuck in high diamond for about a year struggling to break into masters (mostly because I'm awful against terran). I did a one hour lesson with axslav and learned a solid build order, learned more about the game in general, and he pointed out mistakes that I didn't realize were hurting me so much (getting supply blocked). Once I learned to control getting supply blocked (it takes practice) and had the build down solid, I was winning about 75% of my matches and I was promoted into masters. I took the lesson to learn a build order against terran and was able to extrapolate what I learned into all 3 matchups. For $40 I'd say it was completely worth it, and in fact I've been contemplating doing a lesson with minigun when hots pops to get an edge. If your play is stagnant, I would definitely suggest it, but if you're still learning new things every day watching your replays and such, it's probably not necessary (although it will help). I agree with renoB's logic. If you stagnate, coaching could be beneficial. It's likely a coach will be able to point out mistakes that were hiding in plane sight, and it may be an area you didn't feel should be your primary focus; although, once you reach top 10 diamond, even small mistakes can result in a loss. | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On March 04 2013 16:43 Teoita wrote: Finally, tons of people just need help with their mindset. I had a few students with the worst cases of ladder anxiety, due to been obsessed with the "YOU MUST IMPROVE ONLY DO MACRO BUILDS ALLINS TAKE NO SKILL" crap that's being going around for ages. I talked to them a bunch during and after the coaching sessions, and eventually they were able to overcome that too. This, a thousand times this. Allins require a different type of skill than macro games, but people who can only play macro and don't know their allins have an incomplete knowledge of the game. Especially for new players I think allins are a great way to learn the game without overcomplicating things. | ||
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Noobity
United States871 Posts
There are extremely few people who go far in life completely on their own. It is extremely likely that you are not one of those people. If you really want to go to the top of something, or even just push your limits, you need to seek assistance in one way or another. I'm a diamond level player and I like to coach lower level players in the game because it's fun. I've helped players improve from silver to platinum on a few occasions, and gold to diamond... twice I believe. I can only look at their play, see them doing physical things that I suggested (hotkeying eggs, backspace larva inject, etc) and demolishing attacks that before I made suggestions they would have been demolished by to understand that coaching is helpful. I think a better question would be "Is pay coaching worth it?" and that's something that you'd have to determine on your own (I actually think there were a few threads on that already). That's something you have to determine on your own. I don't think that hiring a pro to coach you is necessary until you get to the semi-pro level (though I do not want to discourage this at all, pro coaching is a great way to support them and learn the same stuff you can learn from other players), and I think you can likely learn a lot of the same things by simply asking a clanmate or friend to look at a couple replays. Using an outside of starcraft example: I'm a shit golfer. I don't golf often, and hell I've only golfed maybe 63 holes in my life, but I like to go out there, drive the cart, drink the drinks, and shoot the shit with golfers. My father has been golfing for 10 years, for 9 of those years he'd been stagnant, not improving at the course he goes to often, despite putting in plenty of time at the driving range and golfing every weekend for months at a time. About a year ago we went to the driving range as a bonding kinda thing, we don't see each other often and thought it would be fun. I did my shitty swings, and then started watching him. I don't know a ton about golf, but I know a bit about the sciences of athletics, I was a track thrower and soccer player for most of my life, so I saw in what he was doing things that were counter productive because they were either easier or he didn't understand what exactly he needed to do. He'd had coaching from friends in the past, one of his friends is pretty good, on the cusp of winning tournaments and such at the semi-pro ish level, but they weren't able to see the little flaws in his play that make the huge difference, maybe they took what they were able to do for granted. Needless to say I've improved his play quite a bit, but for the life of me I couldn't tell you all the rules of golf or who the top pros are or anything. The statement "Those who can't, teach" is often used derogatorily, but it's a statement that is reflective of those with a passion for the craft and an eye for analyzing. Do you need a pro to tell you what you're doing wrong? Not in the least. Do you need someone to show you what you could be doing better? Absolutely. | ||
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
But I'm certainly not interested in that kind of monetary commitment, and I doubt most people are either. | ||
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Avril_Lavigne
United States446 Posts
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
If I didn't realize those things, a coach would help. But a coach can't help me be more coordinated, a better multitasker, or remember to do things that I KNOW that I should have done 2 minutes ago. Maybe my builds could be more efficient, but does that matter in light of all that other stuff? No. | ||
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MannerMan
371 Posts
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
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Noobity
United States871 Posts
On March 09 2013 04:43 U_G_L_Y wrote: But a coach can't help me be more coordinated, a better multitasker, or remember to do things that I KNOW that I should have done 2 minutes ago. That's actually incorrect. If you don't know how to fix these things, then no amount of your own work would fix the problems. A good coach would be able to be more exact in noticing your flaws and go even farther, providing specific and proven exercises to do (that you didn't know about) in order to train your multitasking. Provide options on how to improve coordination. Hell there are plenty of training exercises that the proper coach can provide that will help you to remember things (see day9's newbie dailies, most of them revolve around one of the many forms of teaching memory and prioritizing). | ||
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romelako
United States373 Posts
On March 09 2013 04:43 U_G_L_Y wrote: I know I am losing because I am shit and forget combat shield or siege mode, get stormed in a choke, took gas late and can't afford upgrades, got hard supply blocked, let all my vikings get fungaled, etc. If I didn't realize those things, a coach would help. But a coach can't help me be more coordinated, a better multitasker, or remember to do things that I KNOW that I should have done 2 minutes ago. Maybe my builds could be more efficient, but does that matter in light of all that other stuff? No. But how do you know if those are the only mistakes that you're making? Example: Not spending your larva as soon as you get them could lead to a variety of other problems macro-related. | ||
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Cloudshade
91 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
If you're a bronze player who has just picked up the game and is just learning basic hotkeys/mechanics, a coach is not likely worth your money. Unless you have significant background in other pro games/RTS games, you'll be mostly struggling to execute basic tasks, which a coach can't entirely help you with. Coaching is best for those who can mechanically keep up but just don't know what to do, or have trouble figuring out why they lost. You need to be smart and able to easily implement advice you get in coaching sessions. I've had silver level students who can do this competently and platinum-diamond ones who couldn't, it's not entirely about the level of the player. I wrote a little piece on getting coaching a year ago or so which has a few more of my thoughts, for those who are interested. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=297285 | ||
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romelako
United States373 Posts
On March 09 2013 05:26 Cloudshade wrote: tbh....EVEN high masters and gms AND PROS have more to learn...it just depends on the skill difference between the coach and the student....the bigger the gap the more there is to learn...if lets say MVP was coaching MKP maybe there isn't that much to learn....but if MVP was coaching someone like Painuser or just some random person..provided that MVP has good analysis and can put that into words...he would be able to greatly increase the person's skill provided that the student tries to improve themselves too I don't think MKP could beat MVP even if MVP coached him. MKP cannot beat MVP no matter how hard he tries.  On another note, I agree in that the bigger gap = more to learn. However, a lot of the reasons why Koreans are better than Foreigner players is due to the sheer amount of hours they put in in comparison to the foreigner players. Imagine how much better our foreigners would be if they played and practiced nearly as much as the Korean players? They'd be amazing (especially Stephano, I feel). | ||
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
Coaching is a tool that supplements practice and it definitely helps. Whether the coach is pointing out flaws in your play or motivating you to keep going, it's helpful. It's not a replacement for practice. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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