EPTThe upgrades favor the zerg, also the zerg army has more supply and overal more army value:
see video description for stats
How to beat Skytoss with Zerg - Page 5
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cabal]
Belgium37 Posts
The upgrades favor the zerg, also the zerg army has more supply and overal more army value: see video description for stats | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
Once protoss reaches this composition, it is impossible to break them. Your only option is to throw MULTIPLE 200/200 armies consisting of Hydra/corrupter/Infestor/Viper into your opponent (perfectly surrounded of course) and hope that you have so many more bases that you overwhelm your opponent (not likely with how much harass protoss has). The key here is to establish a mid game where you get economically ahead of your opponent. This is made very difficult however when your protoss friend turtles on 3-4 bases (with cannon + sim city) and is harassing you with the best harass utility in the game - warp prisms. Since an air-going protoss has many excess minerals, expect multiple 8+ Zealot warpins at your main and outlying bases. To win, the zerg player must perfectly defend this harass while denying protoss bases and chipping away at his army. Of course, this is all theoretical. The amount of skill difference needed for zerg to win in this scenario over the protoss is astounding. We'll see where this goes in the future. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
On February 25 2013 06:43 wammyz wrote: I feel like blizzard has a few choices on fixing this. 1. Buff Infestors (They are not going to do this) 2. Buff Corrupters (probably not) 3. Buff Hydras (maybe) 4. Nerf Voids and Tempests (most likely which would be sad because it would mean taking away strategies once again) I have no idea why the Corruptor is still in its current state. Its DPS is bad, speed slow, cannot attack ground, but worst of all it's "armored", which takes away any advantage it might have had. And it's even more expensive than mutas. I've seen a pro game recently where the Zerg player rolled over a maxed out Toss Air Lategame composition with pure upgraded muta, because they are fast, deal splash and are "light". | ||
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
The balancing is just a fucking joke, Zerg is basically the new Terran and Blizzard is punishing them for their own poor balance decisions. Really, first they make BL/Inf the only viable late-game comp for Zerg, at the same time they make it OP by making the Infestor way too strong, then they give the other races complete HARD counters for that while nerfing Infestors at the same time. Playing Zerg is just pure pain in HotS, we have the same fucking early game while Terran and Toss get to play around with all their new toys while we have the SH, which is kinda nice but scales terribly into the late-game and the Viper which was designed for the mid-game but isn't available before Hive tech. In my opinion Zerg now has the weakest early, mid and late-game. For sucks sake, Blizzard, give us BW Hydras and Dark Swarm already. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On February 25 2013 20:38 TheNewerBakery wrote: A video which shows the tactics and how it works. If there are any problems with it, feel free to tell me and I will follow up with another video  .You can't test this in a unit tester by yourself. You're not storming or controlling units properly, it's impossible to control both sides properly anyway by yourself, and you're not even really trying, just a moving. And it's a pretty unrealistic blunder for the protoss to let his carriers be abducted when he has feedback, and wouldn't have his carriers out in front like that anyway. Also that's an absurd amount of carriers, the protoss would definitely know long before the zerg gets close to reaching that number that he was massing corr and wouldn't make so many massive air units, more voids and HT. But yeah the major issue with your video is the lack of storms and micro. | ||
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ETisME
12898 Posts
On February 25 2013 23:05 Mahtasooma wrote: I have no idea why the Corruptor is still in its current state. Its DPS is bad, speed slow, cannot attack ground, but worst of all it's "armored", which takes away any advantage it might have had. And it's even more expensive than mutas. I've seen a pro game recently where the Zerg player rolled over a maxed out Toss Air Lategame composition with pure upgraded muta, because they are fast, deal splash and are "light". I think corruptors are fine, but the biggest issue for Zerg is a lack of units that can support their anti air. Terran has the BEST air to air support unit, the Raven. the air support from Thors also allows a smoother transition from mech to air. There are additional support units such as widow mines and ghosts available . Protoss on the other hand, has the best ground to air support unit, with Storm and archon. And the core air units have really good synergies between eachother. Both Races have their very well synergy air deathball. zerg has transfuse, fungal, corruption, infested terrans. Fungal and muta splash being the only splash anti air damage. The raw power of hydra and muta dps against air is shut down by storms/pdd. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
It takes a lot of creep spread and continuing to fall back and push forward with spores and swarm hosts, and a lot of spores are needed. | ||
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TheNewerBakery
United Kingdom15 Posts
On February 25 2013 23:02 cabal] wrote: I made my own little test video with a proper unit combination that a protoss player would use The upgrades favor the zerg, also the zerg army has more supply and overal more army value: see video description for stats The problem here is that you used other units. You only need 2 units, one set to deal with ground, and the other to deal with air. This is the key part of the strategy. I will recreate your scenario with my tactic tonight to see . | ||
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ShamW0W
160 Posts
On February 25 2013 23:35 ETisME wrote: I think corruptors are fine, but the biggest issue for Zerg is a lack of units that can support their anti air. Terran has the BEST air to air support unit, the Raven. the air support from Thors also allows a smoother transition from mech to air. There are additional support units such as widow mines and ghosts available . Protoss on the other hand, has the best ground to air support unit, with Storm and archon. And the core air units have really good synergies between eachother. Both Races have their very well synergy air deathball. zerg has transfuse, fungal, corruption, infested terrans. Fungal and muta splash being the only splash anti air damage. The raw power of hydra and muta dps against air is shut down by storms/pdd. Actually sums up my thoughts fairly well. My current thinking for potential Zerg AA buffs without going nuts would be: - Hydralisk starts with +1 range (Happy to get into the details about WHY if needed. Mainly, helps mid-game vs. Terran compositions without having to nerf the early game advantage Reapers give into the ground. Also makes Hydras more viable as effective defensive units vs. early pushes. Leads into my next proposal on why it's relevant to Skytoss.) - Grooved Spines moved to Hive tech and improved to give Hydras +2 Range (Hydras are now able to effectively add DPS to late-game Zerg compositions) - Corruption changed to an ability similar to Spirit Link from WC3 which chains units together, sharing damage across them all (effectively gives Zerg an AOE way to deal with massed air without requiring complete re-designs of units) With these changes you'd see improvements on the holes that the Infestor previously filled in WoL (which made it too strong) while not making any one strategy too powerful from the Zerg. | ||
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Leviance
Germany4079 Posts
Edit: ofc this would also add micro, anti death ball play and exciting spectator moments and nice visuals | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
Plus the zerg can remax instantly with whatever unit fits best at that moment. That's why zerg can never have quite as versatile and powerful units as protoss or terran. It's the same as before with the protoss ground "deathball" if you manage to kill off the expensive slow building units, then the next army will kill what's left over. I think once the koreans start using vipers properly, we will see a lot of carrier and collossus snipes. Corruptors are actually decent units for their price and supply, they don't fare as well vs void rays, but there is still the option of trying to bait the charge or using chain fungals and fungal DOES have longer range than feedback now. Also swarmhosts are incredibly effective vs toss. | ||
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arcHoniC
United States141 Posts
On February 25 2013 23:02 cabal] wrote: I made my own little test video with a proper unit combination that a protoss player would use The upgrades favor the zerg, also the zerg army has more supply and overal more army value: see video description for stats http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfgirC1Sajg wtb corruption! battle happens pretty quick but you have to imagine that would help it a little bit | ||
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OneStar
England5 Posts
On February 26 2013 00:37 Freeborn wrote: What you guys don't factor in is the fact that the zerg can remax almost instantly, whereas this kind of perfect protoss unit composition cannot be replaced easily. Plus the zerg can remax instantly with whatever unit fits best at that moment. That's why zerg can never have quite as versatile and powerful units as protoss or terran. It's the same as before with the protoss ground "deathball" if you manage to kill off the expensive slow building units, then the next army will kill what's left over. I think once the koreans start using vipers properly, we will see a lot of carrier and collossus snipes. Corruptors are actually decent units for their price and supply, they don't fare as well vs void rays, but there is still the option of trying to bait the charge or using chain fungals and fungal DOES have longer range than feedback now. Also swarmhosts are incredibly effective vs toss. Re-maxing doesn't help when the trades you are making are 100 supply of army for a couple of voids and a collosi, it's TOO inefficient and that's the whole point. | ||
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TheNewerBakery
United Kingdom15 Posts
New video using storm and better composition. The Protoss army actually won, but with only 2 Tempest. Using the Zerg Macro mechanic, the Zerg can easily re-max and win. | ||
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Ulargg
Netherlands33 Posts
The downside of this of course, queens are so insanely slow... Hmm makes me think... if queens work reasonable, then the fix to this composition is also really simple; just give zerg hive tech speed upgrade for queens. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
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Orzabal
France287 Posts
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TheNewerBakery
United Kingdom15 Posts
On February 26 2013 01:46 Orzabal wrote: 43 Corruptor ? in which game scenario it can happen ? That's the point. This is the only way to win, everyone is saying that you can't win with a conventional compostition - and they are right. However, this composition can win, as you can see in the videos. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On February 26 2013 01:04 TheNewerBakery wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfb7l9BWk60 New video using storm and better composition. The Protoss army actually won, but with only 2 Tempest. Using the Zerg Macro mechanic, the Zerg can easily re-max and win. please stop posting videos of zerg winning vs bad compositions of P. THIS IS NOT THE ARMY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT! 2 immortals, 3 archons, 4 HT, 15 VRs, 8 carrier. now there you go. hf breaking that. after testing it vs your 8 ultra 43 corruptor army 6 ultras stayed alive but so did all 8 carrier and 10 voidrays. to be fair this is vs a-moved zerg and a-moved + voidraycharge on + storm P. so it will get better results but still. oh btw: Z loses 4,8k of gas. P loses 2,4k. so even with double the bases its a VERY bad trade. your tests all are bad because of one thing. you dont build enough blocker for P to let the HT stay alive vs ultras. if you do that (thats what the archons and immo are for and maybe P army gets even stronger with more immos/archons involved) the Z gets crushed. so what happens? you retreat with your ultras, build corruptor and now P just warps in 20 zealots + his 8 carrier and 10 voids an kills 1-2 bases and a whole lot of your static defense. in the meantime rebuilds easily the rest of his army in 1-1,5 minutes and yeah hf again ^^ | ||
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Neverblink
United States31 Posts
Jump on 6 bases Total of 12 gases=2040gas per minute, right? (340/m per hatch) Mine minerals from 3 bases with 16 workers. (2400/m) Need 43 Corrupter's? Roughly 3 minute's needed to generate this Ultralisks (add another minute of time & minute for them to spawn). Yes, I understand you aren't going to just pop-out all these units at a time but one bad engagement that lands Storms on Corrupter's in a good way, you are in big trouble. Good grief! Gonna need some serious expanding and somehow denying them access to your 6 hatcheries. Meanwhile, they land this composition off of 3 bases(maybe 4). Rough for Zergies | ||
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