EPTHow to beat Skytoss with Zerg - Page 2
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osiris17
United States165 Posts
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Neverblink
United States31 Posts
On February 25 2013 06:23 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Could someone explain to me why this thing has become an issue? Is it really impossible to ever, ever attack a Protoss player, all game long? I still don't know what's happening in these games people keep mentioning, do you just sit on your side of the map until the 20 minute mark, then die horribly to maxed tempest / void / templar? Also, nobody is mentioning Infestors; you can still chain fungals, even if it doesn't do as much damage as before. If Tempests are an issue at any stage of the game, I don't see why moving them around while burrowed would be impossible, since he can't possibly defend his obs that far away from his army, assuming you're attacking before he maxes. Replays? Well, early game: Zerg's are being hit with force fields that prevent you from getting into 2 base attacks (This is the weakest point in the game for Protoss but Mothership Core+Overdrive says "back the heck off & retreat" If they start off with Phoenix play then you are making Spores and losing Overlords. Mid-game: Photon Cannons+FF+Tempest/Voids firing from range+few stalkers with overdrive sitting next to the "Tempests" will shutdown middle game. (Phoenix shuts down Muta's) Late-game: You now are against Voids/Tempest/HT/(Phoenix's that are left over?), Colossus Zerg has very few "windows" to attack Protoss. If Protoss goes for the Immortal/Sentry push, Zerg had to play reactionary. Zerg literally has to all-in before 15 minutes or they are not winning at the moment. I'm not saying there is no counter to this but as of right now, it hasn't been found. | ||
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wammyz
90 Posts
On February 25 2013 06:23 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Could someone explain to me why this thing has become an issue? Is it really impossible to ever, ever attack a Protoss player, all game long? I still don't know what's happening in these games people keep mentioning, do you just sit on your side of the map until the 20 minute mark, then die horribly to maxed tempest / void / templar? Also, nobody is mentioning Infestors; you can still chain fungals, even if it doesn't do as much damage as before. If Tempests are an issue at any stage of the game, I don't see why moving them around while burrowed would be impossible, since he can't possibly defend his obs that far away from his army, assuming you're attacking before he maxes. Replays? If the Toss player is playing a turtly style then you really have no chance of breaking it. Force fields, cannons and the insane range of colossi make it basically impossible to attack into. In regards to infestors they are just not good enough anymore. ITs are useless lategame as they die to one storm and it is impossible to chain fungal because of the range of tempests plus all the nerfs to the infestor. I feel like blizzard has a few choices on fixing this. 1. Buff Infestors (They are not going to do this) 2. Buff Corrupters (probably not) 3. Buff Hydras (maybe) 4. Nerf Voids and Tempests (most likely which would be sad because it would mean taking away strategies once again) | ||
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Serpest
United States603 Posts
On February 25 2013 06:23 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Could someone explain to me why this thing has become an issue? Is it really impossible to ever, ever attack a Protoss player, all game long? I still don't know what's happening in these games people keep mentioning, do you just sit on your side of the map until the 20 minute mark, then die horribly to maxed tempest / void / templar? Also, nobody is mentioning Infestors; you can still chain fungals, even if it doesn't do as much damage as before. If Tempests are an issue at any stage of the game, I don't see why moving them around while burrowed would be impossible, since he can't possibly defend his obs that far away from his army, assuming you're attacking before he maxes. Replays? There's a pretty good game where the z controls the game but then the protoss comes right back in with a funky composition. + Show Spoiler + Byul v Tassadar in GSTL | ||
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SoFrOsTy
United States525 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On February 25 2013 06:56 SoFrOsTy wrote: Op makes a lot of great points. The problem is most zergs are used to easy wins and not having to work hard, hence the complaining. But the tactics detailed in the OP will work if high level players are doing it. no they wont but keep telling it to you :D the opposite is the case. vs better players this will get worse and worse. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
On February 25 2013 06:03 knOxStarcraft wrote: Show me a replay at high level where a zerg remaxes on corruptors and beats that army. As for the spore thing, idk if that actually worked, but there are so many flaws with that strategy that it's insane, one being the overlords will just get killed by the massive sky army and storms...lol Spores and Overlords are only minerals, so if the Protoss army attacks them instead of the actual Zerg army then the Zerg will win easily, don't discard it so easily, it just may be the solution you need (also it was already used at a pro match so its proven it works). | ||
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Prplppleatr
United States1518 Posts
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mythandier
United States828 Posts
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wammyz
90 Posts
On February 25 2013 06:56 SoFrOsTy wrote: Op makes a lot of great points. The problem is most zergs are used to easy wins and not having to work hard, hence the complaining. But the tactics detailed in the OP will work if high level players are doing it. no? Nope | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On February 25 2013 06:49 Serpest wrote: There's a pretty good game where the z controls the game but then the protoss comes right back in with a funky composition. + Show Spoiler + Byul v Tassadar in GSTL Zerg won last engagement vs. Protoss only because Tassadar's positioning was bad. | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Blizzard has known about this unbeatable army for months, I detailed it in the pro forums, sent replays, and a lot of other P/Z pros have mentioned that when Protoss gets here you cannot lose the game. With that said, let's hope blizzard, you know...fixes it? It's an easy fix - increase tempest supply to 8, and reduce it's health, and make it an actual support unit instead of a massable deathball unit that counters everything late game with templar. A unit like this should be fragile, I played a game last night and landed 7 hunter seekers on clumps of tempests and not one was even taken down to half health...lol. This also brings the carrier back into the forefront as the go-to Protoss air unit. I only post here because a lot of people ask "how do you beat mass tempest + templar" in lategame, and I'm here to tell you i tried to convince them this was a balance issue months ago, and they have let it be since then. It is actually unbeatable when you get to 16-18 tempests + 10+ high templar. So if you play Zerg at the moment and are becoming frustrated with this, or mech TvP lategame and are frustrated with this, i wouldn't worry. It's obvious they are going to have to nerf it unless they want to leave the game in a state like broodlord infestor was for over a year in wings of liberty. | ||
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1v1Alpha
33 Posts
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RuneZerg
Denmark90 Posts
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1v1Alpha
33 Posts
On February 25 2013 08:58 avilo wrote: I am just going to put this out here - the god composition of tempest + templar is unbeatable in TvP./ZvP lategame. I know from firsthand experience when I developed this 3+ months ago in beta (i offraced as Protoss for 2 weeks) and posted replays on the pro forums and informed blizzard that this would become a problem in the future for the game because it's simply put broodlord infestor 2.0 but better. Blizzard has known about this unbeatable army for months, I detailed it in the pro forums, sent replays, and a lot of other P/Z pros have mentioned that when Protoss gets here you cannot lose the game. With that said, let's hope blizzard, you know...fixes it? It's an easy fix - increase tempest supply to 8, and reduce it's health, and make it an actual support unit instead of a massable deathball unit that counters everything late game with templar. A unit like this should be fragile, I played a game last night and landed 7 hunter seekers on clumps of tempests and not one was even taken down to half health...lol. This also brings the carrier back into the forefront as the go-to Protoss air unit. I only post here because a lot of people ask "how do you beat mass tempest + templar" in lategame, and I'm here to tell you i tried to convince them this was a balance issue months ago, and they have let it be since then. It is actually unbeatable when you get to 16-18 tempests + 10+ high templar. So if you play Zerg at the moment and are becoming frustrated with this, or mech TvP lategame and are frustrated with this, i wouldn't worry. It's obvious they are going to have to nerf it unless they want to leave the game in a state like broodlord infestor was for over a year in wings of liberty. Thorzain beat minigun when minigun had the unit composition you describe. Enough ravens with pdd negate tempests altogether and with viking bc ghost you can win the game using yamato and emps | ||
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Communism
United States176 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
Skytoss is far from unbeatable. It's just people haven't had chance to learn to deal with it yet. I've noticed from replays and watching streams is that nobody has really adapted to dealing with this yet with early attacks hampering the economy and slowing down the build up or abusing the mobility of it at all. Good map design which discourages air play as well as maps that encourage will help massively in the long run, where as with the infestor/broodlord composition it didn't matter what map it was, as long as there was areas of land it was very powerful. I personally as a terran player are having trouble with tempest/templar, but when I look at my replays every game I see things I could be doing better, like more ravens and better viking control. Voids are a big problem currently for me, but even they can be zoned with turrets. For terran and zerg both, this composition is most likely beatable. I'd say if it's still bad after a week or two then they could probably look at slight supply nerfs, but until then they shouldn't change it massively as stargate being viable is a good thing for the game. | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On February 25 2013 09:27 Communism wrote: I love how when the problem was the infestor / BL deathball, terran and protoss players were crying imba and complaining relentlessly about how it needs to be patched, and now that the protoss (once again) have an unbeatable deathball, it just means "finally, the Z skill ceiling has increased". Exactly why I wont be purchasing HOTS unless Blizzard scraps everything that it is right now and reworks it BL/Infestor was a problem in WoL before it was nerfed. So is sky protoss now. It will be fixed. | ||
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
On February 25 2013 09:08 1v1Alpha wrote: Thorzain beat minigun when minigun had the unit composition you describe. Enough ravens with pdd negate tempests altogether and with viking bc ghost you can win the game using yamato and emps Where can I watch this game? I was under the impression that minigun was an awful generic NA protoss, so he'd definitely have a hard time beating such an incredible nerd baller like Thorzain, regardless... | ||
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