EPTAs I mentioned before, most other units have 10 sight only. This is not like the old 9 range infestors against 10 sight units where he'd only have a tiny split second to react after seeing them before fungal went down. With the 14 sight MSC, he has plenty of time to react to any flanks. You try to go in with vipers they're going to explode to a feedback that he already queued up before you even got in vision range of his army.
How to beat Skytoss with Zerg - Page 3
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
As I mentioned before, most other units have 10 sight only. This is not like the old 9 range infestors against 10 sight units where he'd only have a tiny split second to react after seeing them before fungal went down. With the 14 sight MSC, he has plenty of time to react to any flanks. You try to go in with vipers they're going to explode to a feedback that he already queued up before you even got in vision range of his army. | ||
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OneStar
England5 Posts
Yeah you can beat mid master players who don't know what they're doing with skytoss pretty easily, but as soon as you start playing anyone that's decently high on the ladder it feels like you're pissing in the wind. My suggestion would be remove the void ray, this unit is currently broken and seems impossible to balance + i don't see why protoss needs this unit with all the other air options they have now, removing this unit could also help with bringing the swarm host into the game alot more...imo anyway. I'm a GM zerg in wings and currently so frustrated with hots i dont even want to buy it >< | ||
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absalom86
Iceland1770 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On February 25 2013 10:34 absalom86 wrote: Personally I want to see swarm hosts have a researchable secondary firing mode called... scourge! ( i.e. spawns scourge at interval ) or something anti air that can chip away at a protoss fleet. I don't think that Scourges will work in SC2. And also, it would be pretty damn overpowered if Swarm Hosts had something that attacks air too. Unlike for ground units, you don't have many anti-air units where they would kill something easily. If you don't have Colossi or High Templars, your Locusts would destroy Protoss army. Now, if we have something that attacks air(flying), you don't have Colossi for AA, and Archons and HTs don't really cut because of air units being easy to spread. I would rather see something being done with the Corruptors... You can even nerf them, since they are damn good anti-air right now, just do something about their ability... | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On February 25 2013 10:50 Xequecal wrote: They could make Hydras cost 1 supply, or a Hive tech upgrade that makes them 1 supply, I think that would fix it. If Protoss wants to turtle on 3 bases to mass air, you can take 6 bases and just spam masses and masses of them at him. Hydras don't really help when Protoss has 200/200 units in High Templars, Voids, Carriers and Tempests with some Archons mixed in. No matter if you have 20 or 60 of them, they melt. And you are getting to the point of diminishing returns, since more Hydras you have, less of them will attack, and it is less likely that you will evade Storms with them being clumped and you not having the space to spread them. But I am really curious to see what Ragnarok had in mind when he said that him and other Korean Zergs found the way to beat the Skytoss in HOTS. | ||
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
It wasn't easy at all, but I think maybe if you use infestors really well and rely on chain fungals and killing observers, on most maps you can have somewhat of a chance against it. | ||
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osiris17
United States165 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On February 25 2013 11:03 osiris17 wrote: Increase the corruptor armor by like 3 and then nerf their heallth to compensate. THen they'll do much better against both voids and carriers, and presumably equal against everything else. God no. It's an issue of tempests being too supply efficient in lategame, as well as having too much health for their intended design purpose (a counter to broodlords). Tempest supply increased to 8, tempest health reduced. Then see what happens. Why 8 you ask, and not 6? Because aside from the Tempest being too efficient in lategame right now, HOTS right now design-wise across every match-up is heading towards a very bad design - mass air units vs mass air units. Tempests being 8 supply nerfs the unit lategame, and also puts more importance back on ground focused armies instead of massing the strongest air army you can lategame. | ||
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AxiomBlurr
786 Posts
On February 25 2013 05:21 Serpest wrote: Yay! The Z skill ceiling has increased. ^_^ On a more serious note: from what I've found playing against toss in the beta is you don't want to let them reach late-game - or at least when you do hit late-game, I've found that using the 300/200 food (quick remax) along with swarmhost drops in the main and pockets of broodlords sieging their expansions - it's all about massively out-multitasking the P. If you have one big roaring fire (i.e. your clumped up death-ball), in a straight-up engagement the p will win. You need to start small fires all over the place and continually mess him up. All it takes is one bad engagement and the game's over (for you or your opponent  - if you've been stressing him all game with multi-pronged attacks and drop feints and so forth the probability leans slightly in your favour) and you can move on to the next one. You never want the deathball. You want to basically base-race and keep on expanding.Stay calm, don't hesitate, and make sure you have multiple armies on multiple hotkeys. You can't just 1-A your way to victory anymore. Well said. In WoL, it was Toss who had to start the small fires everywhere and stop the Zerg reaching their ultimate deathball, where as in HoTS, as others have already stated, the roles have been reversed. Skytoss (approx 2 Observer, 4 Tempests, 8 Carriers, 8 Void Rays, Mothership ) + HT + Archon is the new 'Big Daddy Hoss Boss' endgame composition, Broodlord+Infestor+Spines+Spores fails against it. As a P player though it is extremely hard to reach that composition. One difference between the Z WoL superior end game composition and P HoTS superior end game composition is: how fluidly the race can transition into it. It is not a smooth ride for the P player and must be done with extreme care and a royal shizzload of gas and minerals. We are extremely vulnerable during this transition because of how slow it is. We must slowly affect damage and lose supply whilst adding on the air units' supply. In WoL P had an approx 17min (in game time) timing (which was very effective - Creator Prime was the master of it) that hit in the window of the time it takes for Broodlords to morph on mass - quite a small window. For Z in HoTS you guys have a bigger window but as Serpest mentioned, you must take the multi location attack approach. I am only a low Diamond Toss - Z is my worst match up by far. Z players mobility and ability to be everywhere is incredible to watch but sooooooo hard to play against! | ||
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OneStar
England5 Posts
On February 25 2013 11:14 AxiomBlurr wrote: Well said. In WoL, it was Toss who had to start the small fires everywhere and stop the Zerg reaching their ultimate deathball, where as in HoTS, as others have already stated, the roles have been reversed. Skytoss (approx 2 Observer, 4 Tempests, 8 Carriers, 8 Void Rays, Mothership ) + HT + Archon is the new 'Big Daddy Hoss Boss' endgame composition, Broodlord+Infestor+Spines+Spores fails against it. As a P player though it is extremely hard to reach that composition. One difference between the Z WoL superior end game composition and P HoTS superior end game composition is: how fluidly the race can transition into it. It is not a smooth ride for the P player and must be done with extreme care and a royal shizzload of gas and minerals. We are extremely vulnerable during this transition because of how slow it is. We must slowly affect damage and lose supply whilst adding on the air units' supply. In WoL P had an approx 17min (in game time) timing (which was very effective - Creator Prime was the master of it) that hit in the window of the time it takes for Broodlords to morph on mass - quite a small window. For Z in HoTS you guys have a bigger window but as Serpest mentioned, you must take the multi location attack approach. I am only a low Diamond Toss - Z is my worst match up by far. Z players mobility and ability to be everywhere is incredible to watch but sooooooo hard to play against! I'm sorry but you are just plain wrong, protoss can open phoenix and get a couple of voids and not be punished, or at least not easily because void rays are so strong. This opening along with the mothership core allows them to defend their 3 base pretty easily while getting a couple of collosi and then continuing to transition into their ultimate composition and it is almost impossible to break them when they sit behind cannons. This vs wings of liberty is not even comparable since there was a multitude of all-ins that protoss could do to even out the win rate, while not perfect for all intense and purposes it worked. Also since the infestor nerf ZvP lategame in wings became alot more even imo. In HotS the protoss unit composition reaches a point where it becomes so incredibly cost effeciant that no amount of harass or "multi pronged attacks" will help you, this will only put you furthur behind. The protoss synergy of their air units + collosi and templar is just too strong right now, there's no way around this. All these harassment tactics you speak of only work if the protoss makes mistakes and a good protoss will just shut down all the harras you can do using the m.core photon thing and recall. You can try to break them with hydra ling swarm host corrupter but more and more protoss are just getting better at defending that and when they do they just walk across the map and kill you. In my opinion the unit that is allowing protoss to get to their ultimate composition so easily and quickly is the void ray as it seemingly counters everything and shutdowns most aggression and then makes corruptors completely useless in the lategame. | ||
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Buffy
Sweden665 Posts
On February 25 2013 10:58 goswser wrote: Here is a replay of the only game I've won vs a decent player going sky toss so far: http://drop.sc/307008 It wasn't easy at all, but I think maybe if you use infestors really well and rely on chain fungals and killing observers, on most maps you can have somewhat of a chance against it. Watched your rep, feels like the only reason you won that game was because you played well ofc, but if he would´ve not gone full retard and just made 4-5 colo instead of just having 2 colo all the time you would´ve died, nice play though | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
Dont be afraid to be mobile. When it was available (Akilon) he was constantly moving back and forth between nat and third base so the toss couldnt get a pre-set split or anything (again with corrupter picking off strays) and watch for warp prisms! No slow way to fight it though, short of some supermiracle 'land the fungal on every air unit and all the High Templars', but even then the infestors are likely to eat feedbacks Definately check out his stream next time you can if your having trouble with this. You can figure it out much easier than through what i can write. | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
It is a good game of back and fourth as both players expand. Also a good study on how WhiteRA transit from Colossus, Immortal, Sentry, Archons mix to Void Ray, Tempest, carrier, HT, archons mix. WhiteRA has really good map control. I guess the only thing i can learn is for the zerg player to place more spine and spores at his expansion. But the zerg has a lot of infestors at the end. Not sure if chain fungal can work very effectively. Archons just own corruptors. If corruptors are to be effective, they have to attack from different angles (which may not matter if Skytoss is a death ball). | ||
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ETisME
12618 Posts
On February 25 2013 11:05 avilo wrote: God no. It's an issue of tempests being too supply efficient in lategame, as well as having too much health for their intended design purpose (a counter to broodlords). Tempest supply increased to 8, tempest health reduced. Then see what happens. Why 8 you ask, and not 6? Because aside from the Tempest being too efficient in lategame right now, HOTS right now design-wise across every match-up is heading towards a very bad design - mass air units vs mass air units. Tempests being 8 supply nerfs the unit lategame, and also puts more importance back on ground focused armies instead of massing the strongest air army you can lategame. tempest isn't the biggest issue in the skytoss against Zerg imo. It's the amount of dps coming out from the void rays and carrier and archons that kills corruptors before they can deal enough damage to kill off the units. Tempest is just some icing on the cake. | ||
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i)awn
United States189 Posts
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
If a toss player opens voids and phoenix then you must be able to punish him with hydras. Plus people have not even begun using vipers properly. I have been watching a lot of HotS progamers like Grubby and hasu and I really can't say I saw them using this Skytoss "deathball" too much. It just takes too long to get and is kinda risky. Sure there are quite a few void rays added in now and then but they hardly ever get to a critical mass. Plus I saw so many protoss lose to the crazy HotS mutas. Not sure where all the whine come from. IF you managed to max out with carriers in BW then you would kick everybodies ass no question about that. But it's not easy to get there. Much harder than getting to brood infestor. | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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