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On March 01 2013 07:46 Mellon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 07:21 EuroRabbit wrote:
Skytoss just makes this game sad to play. Toss just sits there and does NOTHING the entire game but defend with cannons, FF's and voids untill they get storm and archons with charglots. I just hate the way this match up is going right now, toss already had it easy enough in WoL and now its even worse with amove armys, it really is poor game design from everyone at blizzard.
The saddest part about skytoss right now is much better you have to play as zerg to beat it. It requires little to no mutli tasking from toss, they just look at production facilities the entire time and count probes while sitting somewhere between their 3rd and nat. Even 3-4 200/200 hydra armys are not enough to kill off or even do a significant amount of damage between voids, charglots and storms. It really is a joke how easy PvZ is right now. Ehh? Zerg dominated toss in Wol, for a long time. This is beta and u complain that a strat (that hasn't been figured out yet) is imbalanced? Toss had to play so much better than zerg in wol, and that was retail, this is still beta. Try to find a solution rather than whining. I think every zerg player deserves to get stomped by toss for awhile, to equalize it 
So your idea of having a fun, fair, balanced game, is that?
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Is it just me or why is it that a lot of of you just come up with sub-optimal balance changes when the problem is bad game design? Sure, they can mend the zvp matchup with some inelegant balance changes but this will not make the matchup fun by itself.
The core of the problem is not balance, it's game design. Death ball design is bad, air-to-air battles are bad, a-move units are bad, terrible-terrible damage is bad, period. These basics have been proven and kept repeated by many for so long, but those in charge just doesn't seem to listen and learn. I can't help feeling tricked by all of what is HoTS right now.
Can anyone enlighten me, why are Tempests still in the game? This unit is one of the dullest, lamest design Blizzard has ever come up with. Yeah, I guess Tempests are good, because they are special... their specialty is that they have long range, and when we say long, we really mean it, like looooooooooooong range, get it? And to compensate this, they have a downside of course, you would never guess: their dps, it's low, how fascinating, you just got to love that, right? No, micro is not involved at all, who needs cool micro, grow up for God's sake...
Ok, end of sarcasm, what is the puspose of Tempests in HoTS? Originally it was to counter Brood Lords, right? But there is the Carrier, which can be microed effectively now and the revamped Void Ray, which also involves a bit of micro, so both of them are clearly better-designed units... which just leeds back to the original question, why are they needed? Definately not for breaking siege lines as basicly every protoss unit counters siege tanks already, so why? So my point is, if you take them out of the equasion, would it help against the opness of airtoss?
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On March 02 2013 00:14 Saigon2246 wrote:
Is it just me or why is it that a lot of of you just come up with sub-optimal balance changes when the problem is bad game design? Sure, they can mend the zvp matchup with some inelegant balance changes but this will not make the matchup fun by itself.
The core of the problem is not balance, it's game design. Death ball design is bad, air-to-air battles are bad, a-move units are bad, terrible-terrible damage is bad, period. These basics have been proven and kept repeated by many for so long, but those in charge just doesn't seem to listen and learn. I can't help feeling tricked by all of what is HoTS right now.
Can anyone enlighten me, why are Tempests still in the game? This unit is one of the dullest, lamest design Blizzard has ever come up with. Yeah, I guess Tempests are good, because they are special... their specialty is that they have long range, and when we say long, we really mean it, like looooooooooooong range, get it? And to compensate this, they have a downside of course, you would never guess: their dps, it's low, how fascinating, you just got to love that, right? No, micro is not involved at all, who needs cool micro, grow up for God's sake...
Ok, end of sarcasm, what is the puspose of Tempests in HoTS? Originally it was to counter Brood Lords, right? But there is the Carrier, which can be microed effectively now and the revamped Void Ray, which also involves a bit of micro, so both of them are clearly better-designed units... which just leeds back to the original question, why are they needed? Definately not for breaking siege lines as basicly every protoss unit counters siege tanks already, so why? So my point is, if you take them out of the equasion, would it help against the opness of airtoss?
I'm all for the removal of tempests, I too think they are solving a problem that is no longer there, now that protoss void-rays can fight corruptors and IT no longer get upgrades... protoss can go Air+templar/archon to fight the Infestor/brood/corruptor.
but, if they remove the tempest, carrier build time will have to be decreased to something like: 90s-100s
(120s+build time of 4 interceptors is just stupid).
Oh well, it no longer matter, the game is out in less than 2 weeks...
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On March 01 2013 07:46 Mellon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 07:21 EuroRabbit wrote:
Skytoss just makes this game sad to play. Toss just sits there and does NOTHING the entire game but defend with cannons, FF's and voids untill they get storm and archons with charglots. I just hate the way this match up is going right now, toss already had it easy enough in WoL and now its even worse with amove armys, it really is poor game design from everyone at blizzard.
The saddest part about skytoss right now is much better you have to play as zerg to beat it. It requires little to no mutli tasking from toss, they just look at production facilities the entire time and count probes while sitting somewhere between their 3rd and nat. Even 3-4 200/200 hydra armys are not enough to kill off or even do a significant amount of damage between voids, charglots and storms. It really is a joke how easy PvZ is right now. Ehh? Zerg dominated toss in Wol, for a long time. This is beta and u complain that a strat (that hasn't been figured out yet) is imbalanced? Toss had to play so much better than zerg in wol, and that was retail, this is still beta. Try to find a solution rather than whining. I think every zerg player deserves to get stomped by toss for awhile, to equalize it
#1 That was only in top games that this "domination" happened. Rest of the games Zerg didn't dominate shit
#2 The Broodlord/infestor tactic only appeared because there was not other realistic way for Zerg to beat Toss. So don't blame this on Zerg players, blame it on stupic Blizzard balancing mechanics.
BTW in WoL toss still had a fair chance to beat zerg late game with Motherships and well done blink stalker sniping of broodlords. Zerg cannot do anything against Skytoss atm. This is same shit that voidrays/colossi/stalkers was before zergs started playing all spines and teching to broodlords. But this time there is no next tier of units that Zerg can start using to beat this or cost effective all purpose caster like what infestor was.
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Wish they brought back scourge. Even if its not cost-effective, at least you could trade armies with instant damage.
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Sooo, has any of the people telling the OP his unit composition doesn't work actually tried it? There are lots of posts repeating how bad hydras are against Skytoss + HTs; well, yes, they are, but they aren't part of the unit composition recommended by the OP. It's some Ultras, some Vipers, and mass Corruptors, with enough cash in the bank to remax quickly even if you trade evenly or at a small loss.
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On March 03 2013 04:20 Empirimancer wrote:
Sooo, has any of the people telling the OP his unit composition doesn't work actually tried it? There are lots of posts repeating how bad hydras are against Skytoss + HTs; well, yes, they are, but they aren't part of the unit composition recommended by the OP. It's some Ultras, some Vipers, and mass Corruptors, with enough cash in the bank to remax quickly even if you trade evenly or at a small loss.
Yup because corruptors are trash verse sky toss. Unless the protoss is going to be super nice and not make voidrays, corruptors are the worst option. Ultra/swarmhost/hydra/viper is a much better composition against sky toss and your best chance imo at killing it.
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On March 03 2013 04:20 Empirimancer wrote:
Sooo, has any of the people telling the OP his unit composition doesn't work actually tried it? There are lots of posts repeating how bad hydras are against Skytoss + HTs; well, yes, they are, but they aren't part of the unit composition recommended by the OP. It's some Ultras, some Vipers, and mass Corruptors, with enough cash in the bank to remax quickly even if you trade evenly or at a small loss.
I saw Stephano lose a couple games using some combination corruptor, ultra, ling against the toss air comp. Once HT were out, all of the trades seemed to go in the P's favor. The vipers get feedbacked by HTs and generally seem to be completely useless. I'm going to guess that SHs are going to have to be used (perhaps not in great number) in order to beat this comp since the SHs' effective range is massive and they can keep the HT back or kill them outright. The other units would be some combination of infestor, hydra, queen, ultra, spore and corruptor.
As an aside, I dont' feel too bad for zerg yet. If P domination continues at the pro level for a couple months then I'll start feeling bad. Also Protoss never had a period of dominance during WOL, IIRC. Perhaps it's their time to shine, although I believe Terran is the strongest now, based on GM ranking results,so perhaps once HoTS is released we will come full circle and we'll be treated to (or forced to endure, depending on your race loyalities) another period of utter domination by Terran.
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On February 28 2013 14:58 blade55555 wrote:Ok I think skytoss is broken. But I was able to kill a maxed out voidray/colossi/templar army. I would have to do this a lot more to be able to say for sure, but this is best success I ever have vs sky toss of lameness :D http://www.mediafire.com/?pyegxh4w26ydhecBest chance to kill it IMO and I did it with ultra/hydra/swarmhost.
Have you used this combination some more? How is it faring? From a purely HoTS armchair perspective I would guess that SHs are the key to beating this comp since they would seem to make it a lot more difficult to be cost efficient with HTs.
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On March 03 2013 05:23 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 14:58 blade55555 wrote:Ok I think skytoss is broken. But I was able to kill a maxed out voidray/colossi/templar army. I would have to do this a lot more to be able to say for sure, but this is best success I ever have vs sky toss of lameness :D http://www.mediafire.com/?pyegxh4w26ydhecBest chance to kill it IMO and I did it with ultra/hydra/swarmhost. Have you used this combination some more? How is it faring? From a purely HoTS armchair perspective I would guess that SHs are the key to beating this comp since they would seem to make it a lot more difficult to be cost efficient with HTs.
I have used it to a decent amount of success quiet a few times. On every map in hots except newkirk you can do it and win just fine, on a map like newkirk (the map where split map is going to happen a lot) you can't win because you have the same income as your opponent as your opponent should be taking his half of the map even though he doesn't even need it. Once toss gets to 5 bases I don't know if you can ever kill him unless it was on a map like whirlwind where zerg can get many bases :p.
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can you guys please stop bumping this thread, the OP is obviously terrible at this game
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ultra hydra nydus is working fine for me but I haven't played that many gms yet.
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On March 03 2013 06:18 KawaiiRice wrote:
ultra hydra nydus is working fine for me but I haven't played that many gms yet.
Where do you put the nydus? Can't imagine you getting it anywhere inside a good protoss's base.
Hydras just melt to VR + Storm.... Zlots will distract utlras for long enough for templar to get off storms, suddenly you have 0 hydras and a bunch of charged up void rays killing every ultralisk that you posses in <1 second each.
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On March 03 2013 16:57 Glon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 06:18 KawaiiRice wrote:
ultra hydra nydus is working fine for me but I haven't played that many gms yet. Where do you put the nydus? Can't imagine you getting it anywhere inside a good protoss's base. Hydras just melt to VR + Storm.... Zlots will distract utlras for long enough for templar to get off storms, suddenly you have 0 hydras and a bunch of charged up void rays killing every ultralisk that you posses in <1 second each.
While I don't really feel nydus + ultra/hydra is that good vs it, voidray/templar is actually beatable. Swarmhost/hydra/ultra actually deals with that composition super well and I have multiple replays (one verse puck who literally loves chargelot/templar/voidray also one verse a korean toss and some others). I do still think voidrays are to strong though don't think I will ever change my mind on that xD
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Mass static defense (mainly Spores) push with Hydra/Swarm Host/Viper can be difficult to deal with in the late game. Locust keep your High Templar at bay and Vipers hug the Spores and grab air units and Hydras/Spores gib them.
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On March 03 2013 17:53 Arco wrote:
Mass static defense (mainly Spores) push with Hydra/Swarm Host/Viper can be difficult to deal with in the late game. Locust keep your High Templar at bay and Vipers hug the Spores and grab air units and Hydras/Spores gib them.
Eh I can already tell you something that beats that easy. Tempests will be able to shoot spores from a mile away as well as snipe vipers before they even get close to abduct. Voidray/tempest/templar is a super strong composition and using mass spore/viper isn't going to be that good due to feedback (same range as abduct) and tempest range.
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On March 01 2013 07:21 EuroRabbit wrote:
Skytoss just makes this game sad to play. Toss just sits there and does NOTHING the entire game but defend with cannons, FF's and voids untill they get storm and archons with charglots. I just hate the way this match up is going right now, toss already had it easy enough in WoL and now its even worse with amove armys, it really is poor game design from everyone at blizzard.
The saddest part about skytoss right now is much better you have to play as zerg to beat it. It requires little to no mutli tasking from toss, they just look at production facilities the entire time and count probes while sitting somewhere between their 3rd and nat. Even 3-4 200/200 hydra armys are not enough to kill off or even do a significant amount of damage between voids, charglots and storms. It really is a joke how easy PvZ is right now.
Rofl.. welcome to what every protoss thought about PvZ for most of 2012 with the infestor/broodlord/mass spine crawler turtle crap. Any unbiased player will tell you that the tides have just simply been reversed at this point right now, so yes, if it continues to be a problem a month or two after HOTS release, I certainly hope Blizzard will do something to fix it asap, and not let the zerg imbalance of 2012 repeat itself with another race in 2013 HOTS.
But please cut out that Toss had it easy enough in WoL.. look at the TLPD charts - protoss was undoubtedly the worst race overall at the professional levels for the entire span of Wings of Liberty, this can't even be disputed. Not only did Protoss have by far the fewest months of dominance, the "sad zealot" days of protoss was just as long and even had lower win rates than zerg at the release of WoL (when it was very underpowered). Aside from just win rate charts, this can simply be just proven by looking at the total tournament winnings, where there is just 1 protoss in the top 10. Not to overuse a Tastosis joke, but that protoss (MC) is there because he literally lived on a plane.
And no, I'm not crying that Protoss was unplayable in WoL, because its certainly a strong ladder race for casually competitive players, but balance should always be based on the tip top levels. Protoss was anything but an easy race at Code-S levels.
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many Ps argue that Zs where stronger in WoL. (that is wrong, show me some numbers plz) so, now they want to be the stronger race...
are you kidding me? if thats you opinion how fairplay works... no gg bye!
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On March 03 2013 16:57 Glon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 06:18 KawaiiRice wrote:
ultra hydra nydus is working fine for me but I haven't played that many gms yet. Where do you put the nydus? Can't imagine you getting it anywhere inside a good protoss's base. Hydras just melt to VR + Storm.... Zlots will distract utlras for long enough for templar to get off storms, suddenly you have 0 hydras and a bunch of charged up void rays killing every ultralisk that you posses in <1 second each.
anywhere near protoss expos, mixed with doom dropping in bases, simultaneous nydus cross map etc. just constantly do dmg once P is spread out at all. I play it sorta like tvp dropping in wol except nydus lets me teleport anywhere I want. Later on I think sitting a group of infestors in the middle of the map to stall out / chain fungal P pushes will be very useful late game but I still need to work on a lot of stuff/timings.
it will probably be exponentially harder to execute once I get to high gm protosses but I'm actually eager to try it before I call anything imbalanced.
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The skytoss has a lot of weaknesses early and mid game, it can be exploit. Void rays and tempest aren't an all around unit like infestor.
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EPT
