|
On February 27 2013 04:50 ProfessionalNoob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 05:14 Decendos wrote:
so you never played against skytoss as zerg yourself. maybe do that before posting stuff like this.
infestors get killed by range 12 carriers or range 15 tempests or in a real game scenario also from feedbacks/storms which basically have about the same range. oh and yeah fungal does about 0 damage now to superhigh hp units like voids and especially carrier + tempests and archons.
just stop talking about random stuff and tell us a composition how to beat 2 immortal 3 archon 4 HT 15 VR 8 carrier army.
if there is no way to kill lets say 80% of that army you will lose the game as Z. simple as that. How about you don't be a pompous ass and assume I don't know what I'm talking about? Awfully convenient that you exaggerate like crazy isn't it? Carriers don't start shooting interceptors at you at 12 range, they have 12 leash range, which means I have to run in first then fly back to use 12 range. Tempests, as someone else had said, have terrible DPS and cost 6 supply. They are incredibly supply inefficient, and they don't protect templars the way broods protect infestors at all. For starters, infestors are faster and can burrow, so they have much higher survivability than templar. Add that to the broodling wall created by the BLs and sniping infestors with ground units are very, very hard when broods are there. Compare that to tempests, they do less DPS than a stalker, they massively overkill, in short, just because protoss has tempests does not mean that his templar are not vulnerable. Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 05:19 ShamW0W wrote:
You forgot about the relatively small addition of the 15 range Tempest. I know it's REALLY minor but... Yes, tempests are SO overpowered at 6 supply and less DPS than a stalker. Nerf PLEASE. ;-; The only thing they're good at is forcing engagements, and even in that they're not that great vs. zerg, it's more against like a siege line of tanks or something that tempests actually shine.
Tempest cost 4 supply. You can stop talking now.
User was warned for this post
|
On February 27 2013 08:16 EdgeSC wrote:Here is my answer to skytoss. Key units : Swarm hosts, Vipers, Hydras, Spores. Check out the units lost tab http://drop.sc/307297
This gave me a lot of hope. I'm going to have to give it a try. It's unfortunate that there isn't really a unit composition that can properly deal with skytoss without the use of the spores at the moment. At least technically it's doable if you apply enough pressure (swarm hosts) to make the Protoss engage you.
|
On February 27 2013 08:16 EdgeSC wrote:Here is my answer to skytoss. Key units : Swarm hosts, Vipers, Hydras, Spores. Check out the units lost tab http://drop.sc/307297
Would you care to elaborate as to why the toss keeps camping the middle of the map near all those spores instead of going straight to your main/bases and rape all your tech and eco? Just asking. Maybe you should have told hin that his units can actually fly and don't need to resort to the ground route.
|
Problem is that viper is quite useless vs. skytoss.
Maybe it would be good idea to make Blinding cloud affect casters. If caster is in blinding cloud, they can't cast any spells costing mana. This would make hydra viper much more potent vs. storms.
|
I just tought of this, not sure if it would be good or not tough.
How about give the infestor a new spell. A spell that you cast on light units and it lowers the damage you take from psy spells for X amounts of seconds.
For example you cast the spell on the hydra's and now they take X amount less damage from psy storm. This would mean if you have good micro you could make your hydra's last quite a bit longer allowing them to cause more damage. Yet it would not make the templar useless either as it can still storm/feedback the infestors and zerg army softening them up but not instantly melting the hydras. But at least then Protoss wouldnt want to directly engage into Zerg when the infestors are around. Mind you collosi would still do their full damage to hydra's so zerg couldnt just mindlessly attack into protoss either.
well it's just and idea I might have missed a huge flaw somewhere I'm not a fantastic player nor do I claim to be one 
|
On February 27 2013 18:27 Mahtasooma wrote:Would you care to elaborate as to why the toss keeps camping the middle of the map near all those spores instead of going straight to your main/bases and rape all your tech and eco? Just asking. Maybe you should have told hin that his units can actually fly and don't need to resort to the ground route.
Here is what you do to make sure he doesn't go around your spores.
-2nd replay of ZvP Skytoss
http://drop.sc/307335
|
On February 27 2013 20:24 EdgeSC wrote:Here is what you do to make sure he doesn't go around your spores. -2nd replay of ZvP Skytoss http://drop.sc/307335
You were @53 supply by the 8min mark without any notable aggression...?
But anyway, this toss had no idea what he was doing. He was massing Tempests vs your Composition instead of VR. You could have basically amoved his army the whole time behind your locust waves. Apart from the fact he lost nearly all his Templar to the Locusts @34min.
Tempests are for forcing engagements. He couldn't engage you front up anyway because of your setup and static defenses, so no point in massing them in the first place, and they did nothing to your composition in the first place.
|
On February 27 2013 18:43 ALPINA wrote:
Problem is that viper is quite useless vs. skytoss.
Maybe it would be good idea to make Blinding cloud affect casters. If caster is in blinding cloud, they can't cast any spells costing mana. This would make hydra viper much more potent vs. storms.
But that might make hydra viper TOO strong because viper would hard counter all the units that hard counter the hydra (colo, storms)
|
On February 27 2013 21:33 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 18:43 ALPINA wrote:
Problem is that viper is quite useless vs. skytoss.
Maybe it would be good idea to make Blinding cloud affect casters. If caster is in blinding cloud, they can't cast any spells costing mana. This would make hydra viper much more potent vs. storms. But that might make hydra viper TOO strong because viper would hard counter all the units that hard counter the hydra (colo, storms)
Well now voidray HT are far too strong so...And it's not like viper hardcounters collossus. And for HTs - just spread them, not a big deal.
|
On February 27 2013 20:42 Mahtasooma wrote:You were @53 supply by the 8min mark without any notable aggression...? But anyway, this toss had no idea what he was doing. He was massing Tempests vs your Composition instead of VR. You could have basically amoved his army the whole time behind your locust waves. Apart from the fact he lost nearly all his Templar to the Locusts @34min. Tempests are for forcing engagements. He couldn't engage you front up anyway because of your setup and static defenses, so no point in massing them in the first place, and they did nothing to your composition in the first place.
http://drop.sc/307371 - vs 1800 masters toss
this guy goes for colossus voids templars
|
On February 27 2013 04:29 eoLiD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 04:08 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
This. Could anybody give me replay about skytoss. I just get it working in my head. During fight Tempests do absolutely no dmg at all. 6 tempest may be able to take down 1 corruptor. Split corruptors and storm means nothing... what's left? Void? Just wate until cooldown. I can't give you a replay but games like the one on this VOD http://de.twitch.tv/egstephano/b/369772964 starting around 2h 19min seem to suggest that it really is unreasonably hard to deal with Skytoss.
After I posted above, I went and watched some more of Stephano's past streaming sessions and he got beat pretty badly by the air toss + high templar comp in a couple games, so at least one high level zerg is having trouble with it. I have to admit it did look extremely difficult to engage. It's still very early on though. He also generally wasn't using infestors. I have to wonder whether zergs are overreacting to the infestor nerfs. In the one game I saw where he used infestors and queens he shut down this build before it got out of control. Infestors, in theory, seem like they should be really good to switch into, or to have, if your opponent starts massing voidrays to kill your corruptors. Also it seems like you might want a few swarm hosts mixed into your unit comp to keep the HT back.
|
On February 27 2013 11:31 Bagi wrote:
I still think the answer lies in redesigning the corruptor ability. I think Blizzard actually said they wanted to make the corruptor (and the overseer) more interesting early on in the beta. What happened, did they run out of time? Corruption is a weak and uninspired ability that nobody would miss if it was taken out.
Since lategame air armies are what zerg struggles the most with, you could make the ability an upgrade in the greater spire. Give the corruptor attack a small AOE for example, or give them acid spores from the devourer. Doesn't really even matter what the ability does, as long as it makes corruptors a decent counter against the units it is supposed to counter.
I was thinking about this the other day as well. What if they simply upped the damage multiplier that corruption does against flying units to say 60% or 80%, to make it meaningful? Although spamming corruption isn't the hardest task in SC2 i can think of, it can be reasonably hard to do if you have to spam the spell 15 times, while trying to get off fungals, control the rest of your army, etc.
|
I don't think looking to the corruptor is the answer. Corruptors turn into broods, so making them counter toss air (the counter to brood's) renders toss air nonviable.
It would only work if they specifically assisted Zerg ground units vs air, or at least more so. Problem then is, with only six range you need a buttload to get close enough to use an ability so it's hard to use them as just support.
Suppose Corruption was range 10. Not much of a buff for corruptors directly since they still need to close to fight, but now a smaller number can soften up an air army for a combined ground and air attack...
|
On February 28 2013 06:26 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 11:31 Bagi wrote:
I still think the answer lies in redesigning the corruptor ability. I think Blizzard actually said they wanted to make the corruptor (and the overseer) more interesting early on in the beta. What happened, did they run out of time? Corruption is a weak and uninspired ability that nobody would miss if it was taken out.
Since lategame air armies are what zerg struggles the most with, you could make the ability an upgrade in the greater spire. Give the corruptor attack a small AOE for example, or give them acid spores from the devourer. Doesn't really even matter what the ability does, as long as it makes corruptors a decent counter against the units it is supposed to counter. I was thinking about this the other day as well. What if they simply upped the damage multiplier that corruption does against flying units to say 60% or 80%, to make it meaningful? Although spamming corruption isn't the hardest task in SC2 i can think of, it can be reasonably hard to do if you have to spam the spell 15 times, while trying to get off fungals, control the rest of your army, etc.
60/80% would be absurd, that would wipe out any kind of air play without a doubt
On the other hand something that could be fun is to make the 2min buff last 6min, or even forever, so corrupting, dying then remaxing over and over to kill a super army of death would be a legitimate strategy
(Still I dont think that's how skytoss should be balanced)
|
skytoss is just broken at the moment.
The stupid thing is that it should have been completely obvious to blizzard that it's the case..
Voids + colossi with some stalkers have been OP in WoL before until infestors and the removal of void speed eventually fixed this. In HotS however voids gotten a huge buff, stargate as a whole got more versatile and infestor damage against armored was nerfed quite a bit. This result was painfully obvious from the moment they practically simultaneously nerfed infestors and buffed voids...
I think buffing hydra hp (tack in onto the speed or range upgrade with possibly extra cost) and/or nerfing the voidray a little bit is the obvious move here. Voidray feels interesting with it's current strength at other matchups though which is better than the near useless unit it is in WoL.
I kind of feel the voidray would have a better role as an light unit. This way it can be nerfed to not be so good against zerg anymore (zerg has no unit that cares about light/armored anymore I believe) while it's role changes in PvT and PvZ. PvT it would be good against vikings (though still outranged) but countered by thors, a much more interesting dynamic than now where terran just counters any air unit with vikings except the mutalisk. In PvP it could then keep a similar role, it would lose some hp but stalkers wouldn't get a bonus against it anymore, ie. it be practically the same as now against stalkers but weaker against phoenixes and archons. Storm could also be really interesting then as it would actually take good chunks out of voids then.
Overall I actually think the premise of airtoss being a viable style is cool, it opens up lots of interesting play opportunities reminiscent of carriers in BW. The thing that sucks now though is that fights with air units are so intensely boring...
- First of all air units tend to be countered by just massing enough air units of your own.. Phoenixes, corruptors or vikings.. That is boring and doesn't lead to cool positional play. Air units should be countered by ground with the ground army being stronger straight up but the air army being faster. It's a crucial mistake in design that they made dedicated AA units like the corruptor, viking and phoenix. Those should have been niche units or AoE units like their BW counterparts were (BW basically had no simple dedicated AA unit, they were all AoE or had something else interesting).
- Secondly there should be cool abilities or AoE effects that air battles at least. Scourge or corsairs are sorely missed in this game now.. They provide a nice cap for air units: you want a few but not too many or the AoE units will get too strong..
TL;DR
Skytoss is blatantly OP now. Interesting solution is to nerf voids HP but changing their armor type to light. Effect is a straight nerf for PvZ fixing skytoss, in PvP they get slightly better vs stalkers but more vulnerable to storm, archons and phoenix, in PvT they are weaker against marines and thors but they become strong against vikings.
edit:
of course there are interesting other solutions, for example changing corruption on corruptors to be some AoE damage spell. It would give zerg a solution to deal with the massive skytoss army but leaves or even buffs smallish use of air units / corruptors as toss. It's also an interesting change to viking vs corruptor fights forcing T to counter zerg air with a mix of air and ground and not just mass viking. At the same time it converts the most boring skill in the game (corruption) into something interesting.. For example change name to corrosion and let it do 15 AoE damage to armored units in a wide area, useless in small fights, good in big ones.
|
Ok I think skytoss is broken. But I was able to kill a maxed out voidray/colossi/templar army. I would have to do this a lot more to be able to say for sure, but this is best success I ever have vs sky toss of lameness :D
http://www.mediafire.com/?pyegxh4w26ydhec
Best chance to kill it IMO and I did it with ultra/hydra/swarmhost.
|
Skytoss just makes this game sad to play. Toss just sits there and does NOTHING the entire game but defend with cannons, FF's and voids untill they get storm and archons with charglots. I just hate the way this match up is going right now, toss already had it easy enough in WoL and now its even worse with amove armys, it really is poor game design from everyone at blizzard.
The saddest part about skytoss right now is much better you have to play as zerg to beat it. It requires little to no mutli tasking from toss, they just look at production facilities the entire time and count probes while sitting somewhere between their 3rd and nat. Even 3-4 200/200 hydra armys are not enough to kill off or even do a significant amount of damage between voids, charglots and storms. It really is a joke how easy PvZ is right now.
|
On March 01 2013 07:21 EuroRabbit wrote:
Skytoss just makes this game sad to play. Toss just sits there and does NOTHING the entire game but defend with cannons, FF's and voids untill they get storm and archons with charglots. I just hate the way this match up is going right now, toss already had it easy enough in WoL and now its even worse with amove armys, it really is poor game design from everyone at blizzard.
The saddest part about skytoss right now is much better you have to play as zerg to beat it. It requires little to no mutli tasking from toss, they just look at production facilities the entire time and count probes while sitting somewhere between their 3rd and nat. Even 3-4 200/200 hydra armys are not enough to kill off or even do a significant amount of damage between voids, charglots and storms. It really is a joke how easy PvZ is right now.
Ehh? Zerg dominated toss in Wol, for a long time. This is beta and u complain that a strat (that hasn't been figured out yet) is imbalanced? Toss had to play so much better than zerg in wol, and that was retail, this is still beta. Try to find a solution rather than whining. I think every zerg player deserves to get stomped by toss for awhile, to equalize it
|
On March 01 2013 07:46 Mellon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 07:21 EuroRabbit wrote:
Skytoss just makes this game sad to play. Toss just sits there and does NOTHING the entire game but defend with cannons, FF's and voids untill they get storm and archons with charglots. I just hate the way this match up is going right now, toss already had it easy enough in WoL and now its even worse with amove armys, it really is poor game design from everyone at blizzard.
The saddest part about skytoss right now is much better you have to play as zerg to beat it. It requires little to no mutli tasking from toss, they just look at production facilities the entire time and count probes while sitting somewhere between their 3rd and nat. Even 3-4 200/200 hydra armys are not enough to kill off or even do a significant amount of damage between voids, charglots and storms. It really is a joke how easy PvZ is right now. Ehh? Zerg dominated toss in Wol, for a long time. This is beta and u complain that a strat (that hasn't been figured out yet) is imbalanced? Toss had to play so much better than zerg in wol, and that was retail, this is still beta. Try to find a solution rather than whining. I think every zerg player deserves to get stomped by toss for awhile, to equalize it
Its just silly the way it plays. It requires no multitasking, no scouting, no game sense, nothing. Just sit and wait for hydras or corupters to come so you can kill them...lol Im sure there are ways around it, but its just silly that one player needs to play 5x as well with 5x as much mutli tasking just to stay on even grounds. I guess is more of a game design issue, but either way its no fun to play.
|
On March 01 2013 07:46 Mellon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 07:21 EuroRabbit wrote:
Skytoss just makes this game sad to play. Toss just sits there and does NOTHING the entire game but defend with cannons, FF's and voids untill they get storm and archons with charglots. I just hate the way this match up is going right now, toss already had it easy enough in WoL and now its even worse with amove armys, it really is poor game design from everyone at blizzard.
The saddest part about skytoss right now is much better you have to play as zerg to beat it. It requires little to no mutli tasking from toss, they just look at production facilities the entire time and count probes while sitting somewhere between their 3rd and nat. Even 3-4 200/200 hydra armys are not enough to kill off or even do a significant amount of damage between voids, charglots and storms. It really is a joke how easy PvZ is right now. Ehh? Zerg dominated toss in Wol, for a long time. This is beta and u complain that a strat (that hasn't been figured out yet) is imbalanced? Toss had to play so much better than zerg in wol, and that was retail, this is still beta. Try to find a solution rather than whining. I think every zerg player deserves to get stomped by toss for awhile, to equalize it
Uh toss had it's period of dominance pvz. A lot of wol was protoss dominated. Love people who forget that and act like zerg was always favored vs toss rofl.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
