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Protoss Player Counter:
As soon as you see zerg on 2 base you should be using your sentry energy to send a halucination to see what they're doing. Once you see the infestation pit immediately throw down a robo bay. This is roughly the same time that the swarm hosts begin burrowing outside your base. Throw down about 4-5 cannons at the same time as your robo bay. As soon as you feel you can afford another robo throw it down. You should prioritize more collossi over range at this point. The cannons will stall enough time that you can get 3+ collossi out and then it should be really easy to kill all the swarm host. The locusts WILL kill your buildings(at least some of them). Once they do you should have more room to micro your collossi so leave ur sentries behind your cannons and stutter step the collossi back, you shouldn't take anymore damage once you have 2 or 3. Since you should have range at this point just chip away at the spore crawlers and swarm hosts. You can even ff on top or behind the swarm host so they cant run away.
Once you break the contain the game is basically over as they wont have any econ to do anything else.
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This isn't really about the stratergy but it seems like a pretty good place to post it.
Just an idea really, may be good, may be bad. Also, I have never used Swarm Hosts so I don't really know how they feel.
Do you think that the player should have to select when to spawn the larva instead of it spawning automatically. This will increase skill ceiling and enable more precise spawning of the larva.
Also, if you think its a bad idea, dont bite my head off please.
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Since beta replays cannot be watched any more, I replaced them with more recent ones. I refined the strategy a bit, but in its core, it is still the same thing.
http://drop.sc/314512
http://drop.sc/314511
http://drop.sc/314513
On March 27 2013 02:31 Zystra wrote:
This isn't really about the stratergy but it seems like a pretty good place to post it.
Just an idea really, may be good, may be bad. Also, I have never used Swarm Hosts so I don't really know how they feel.
Do you think that the player should have to select when to spawn the larva instead of it spawning automatically. This will increase skill ceiling and enable more precise spawning of the larva.
Also, if you think its a bad idea, dont bite my head off please.
I guess you are talking about Locusts, not Larvae. You can already turn off the automatic spawning with (Alt + Spawn Locusts hotkey or a right click on the icon) and spawn manually. It's just not that useful. And no, I don't think you should be forced to spawn manually. That would be pointless busywork, even in Starcraft terms.
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I am toss.
I meet 2 base swarm host builds on ladder but they include Nydus worm, what I find very efficient and smart.
Found going for 2 robo Colos and fight for 3. base asap the only way to defeat it on highmaster/gm level.
I like the idea of vipers against that, so don't overdo those swarmhosts! To force double robo even already while only few swarmhosts are on the map, is huge already.
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Drop your 3rd once you contain?
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Void Rays would stop this massively. You'd probably need a lot of spores if you detect a skytoss transition.
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My take on this as protoss:
You have to be scouting for it with hallucinations. If the zerg is two base then you need an 8 minute scout and must already have a robo up (need observers anyway). Seeing 2 base infestation you need a robo bay and a second facility. Make a second observer and a warp prism while your bay builds. Use forcefields to stall until you have 4 colossi, while using your warp prism to keep the zerg on two bases. You need 6 colossi + range to push out and break their siege position and it is essential that you keep them on two bases until you have done this, as if you let the zerg expand they will overwhelm you with a muta switch.
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I love this build, I am so tired of taking a fast third and trying to scout/guess the protoss 2base allin correctly to actually defend it. 
This gives me the control of the game and so far I've won every game I've done this - even though my execution sucks and the games have often escalated to weird base race type of things.
Thanks OP for the idea, I hated ZvP in WoL (I really really didn't enjoy playing infestor turtle style at all), and in HotS as well before I started doing this. The only semidecent thing I used to find entertaining was mass muta baseracing, but that got old pretty fast and often times felt a bit awkward as well.
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On March 31 2013 12:35 mookku wrote:I love this build, I am so tired of taking a fast third and trying to scout/guess the protoss 2base allin correctly to actually defend it.
As a Protoss player, I also love this build. I just smashed it on ladder yesterday. If you don't take a third base, I scout you and figure out if it is Spire or Infestation, and then go Double Robo Colossus or Double Stargate Phoenix and collect an easy, easy win. I'm honestly shocked people still do this, especially with a Nydus. If I open Stargate and for some reason my scout gets denied but I know you aren't taking a third, I'll just build a bunch of units and have them patrolling all around my side of the map. You would be surprised how many Worms I pick off until people put one down on their side of the map and slowly crawl toward my base. And then they say gg to my Colossus Stalker deathball.
You should probably fake taking a third base (ie start one and cancel it) with this build. It would add a lot to this build, and would catch people off guard. The lack of a quick third base throws up huge red flags, and makes me scout more, meaning I'm going to know what is coming.
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United States4883 Posts
On March 31 2013 12:54 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 12:35 mookku wrote:I love this build, I am so tired of taking a fast third and trying to scout/guess the protoss 2base allin correctly to actually defend it. As a Protoss player, I also love this build. I just smashed it on ladder yesterday. If you don't take a third base, I scout you and figure out if it is Spire or Infestation, and then go Double Robo Colossus or Double Stargate Phoenix and collect an easy, easy win. I'm honestly shocked people still do this, especially with a Nydus. If I open Stargate and for some reason my scout gets denied but I know you aren't taking a third, I'll just build a bunch of units and have them patrolling all around my side of the map. You would be surprised how many Worms I pick off until people put one down on their side of the map and slowly crawl toward my base. And then they say gg to my Colossus Stalker deathball. You should probably fake taking a third base (ie start one and cancel it) with this build. It would add a lot to this build, and would catch people off guard. The lack of a quick third base throws up huge red flags, and makes me scout more, meaning I'm going to know what is coming.
I think that's very well said. I like all the responses saying that protoss should just use sentry energy to scout around 8:00 for the zerg tech path; that seems like a very solid, easy way to figure out what your opponent is doing. I honestly feel like a swarm host contain is very limited and protoss has a lot of answers to it, so I wonder if there's a better way to do this more slowly and safely....
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On March 31 2013 13:38 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 12:54 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 31 2013 12:35 mookku wrote:I love this build, I am so tired of taking a fast third and trying to scout/guess the protoss 2base allin correctly to actually defend it. As a Protoss player, I also love this build. I just smashed it on ladder yesterday. If you don't take a third base, I scout you and figure out if it is Spire or Infestation, and then go Double Robo Colossus or Double Stargate Phoenix and collect an easy, easy win. I'm honestly shocked people still do this, especially with a Nydus. If I open Stargate and for some reason my scout gets denied but I know you aren't taking a third, I'll just build a bunch of units and have them patrolling all around my side of the map. You would be surprised how many Worms I pick off until people put one down on their side of the map and slowly crawl toward my base. And then they say gg to my Colossus Stalker deathball. You should probably fake taking a third base (ie start one and cancel it) with this build. It would add a lot to this build, and would catch people off guard. The lack of a quick third base throws up huge red flags, and makes me scout more, meaning I'm going to know what is coming. I think that's very well said. I like all the responses saying that protoss should just use sentry energy to scout around 8:00 for the zerg tech path; that seems like a very solid, easy way to figure out what your opponent is doing. I honestly feel like a swarm host contain is very limited and protoss has a lot of answers to it, so I wonder if there's a better way to do this more slowly and safely....
I honestly feel like colos isn't the best answer to this timing. I think the swarm host count can get way more out of control before the colos even begin to become an issue and by the time they do, you can have corrupters out. That isn't to say colos is a bad response to swarm hosts, but at the timing this hits, I think it can really delay colos production to the point that corrupters and swarmhosts will roll over a colos/stalker army. I even have replays of having 5-6 ultras out with my swarmhost before the toss secures his 3rd. The way I've been beaten badly with it? DTS or even zealots with a warp prism and lots of sentries at their main. Even if I'm ready for them and know they're coming, they can at least do a good amount of damage. Since this build already puts you pretty far behind, even the slightest damage has proven to be really damaing to the zerg.
I can say I've been using this build quite a bit, just to have something else. I'd say its a bit more cheesy than anything. When I see colos, I just build a spire. When I see stargate, I build more hydras. The problem is to maintain the contain you have to continue to invest in army instead of mass expanding at a pace I'd feel comfortable. Its still extremely effective.
On second thought, the best way to stop? Scouting it extremely early on. if those spores don't get up, the build loses a bunch of its effectiveness, in my experience. But, its not always a sure thing scout. They could just as easily be going 2 base muta early on with the gas timings.
Also there is a much safer way to do this build. Blade has a very detailed build order to this type of build in his HOTS overview for zerg. Its a standard safe build. This build is sort of gimmicky, but I do like it.
Just my 2 cents as a low master using this build.
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I've done this build a lot against all races and I like it. But in some cases its just bad and you shouldn't do it.
For instance against protoss. If you scout him going robo first you should just go into roach/hydra/viper. He's gonna have a warp prism in your base warping in zealots/dts at the same time as you're crossing the map to contain him and then he's just gonna go zealot/archon and totally rape your contain. Swarm hosts just don't handle zealot/archon very well early in the game. And then he'll laugh at you for going swarmhosts hehe.
Fortunately most protoss don't know what to do and you'll get a lot of wins from them trying for straight up timing attacks greater than 10 minutes.
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On April 02 2013 04:33 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
I've done this build a lot against all races and I like it. But in some cases its just bad and you shouldn't do it.
For instance against protoss. If you scout him going robo first you should just go into roach/hydra/viper. He's gonna have a warp prism in your base warping in zealots/dts at the same time as you're crossing the map to contain him and then he's just gonna go zealot/archon and totally rape your contain. Swarm hosts just don't handle zealot/archon very well early in the game. And then he'll laugh at you for going swarmhosts hehe.
Fortunately most protoss don't know what to do and you'll get a lot of wins from them trying for straight up timing attacks greater than 10 minutes.
Eh zealot/archon won't deal with swarmhosts well at all unless you only have like 5. I don't like this 2 base swarmhost but yeah I wouldn't recommend roach/hydra/viper either roach/hydra/swarmhost into fast viper so much stronger.
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On April 02 2013 04:35 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 04:33 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
I've done this build a lot against all races and I like it. But in some cases its just bad and you shouldn't do it.
For instance against protoss. If you scout him going robo first you should just go into roach/hydra/viper. He's gonna have a warp prism in your base warping in zealots/dts at the same time as you're crossing the map to contain him and then he's just gonna go zealot/archon and totally rape your contain. Swarm hosts just don't handle zealot/archon very well early in the game. And then he'll laugh at you for going swarmhosts hehe.
Fortunately most protoss don't know what to do and you'll get a lot of wins from them trying for straight up timing attacks greater than 10 minutes. Eh zealot/archon won't deal with swarmhosts well at all unless you only have like 5. I don't like this 2 base swarmhost but yeah I wouldn't recommend roach/hydra/viper either roach/hydra/swarmhost into fast viper so much stronger.
Zealot/archon works great against swarmhosts because the locust just get mowed down and the zealots are cheap effective tanks which also do high dps to the locust. You should have a ton of gas for the archons because you're not using gas for anything else except upgrades. You should be chronoing out +2 weapons asap. And don't put your upgrading forge at the front of your base lol. The locust just don't survive long enough and there's nothing to tank for them early in the game. You only need a couple archons behind the zealots for it to work.
But the real reason it works is because you can't defend your main from the warp prism and expect to do any kind of contain at the same time. Try it if you don't believe me.
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If you don't take your third how are you gonna keep up in economy when you don't take your third and your swarmhost push fails how are you gonna manage your production and come along in the late game?
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This build is why i drop a blind robo bay even when I'm doing stargate centric build D:
It's very powerful if the swarm hosts get in the right position.... And outright stupid in certain maps.
From a defenders point of view this build becomes exponentially harder to deal with when there's nydus and creep tumors involved.
If you constantly reposition or spread the swarmhosts while spreading creep even if you don't do direct damage you'll delay expos. And swarm hosts are totally sacable since they don't scale too well late game.
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this build is almost impossible to stop and downright silly
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I added this build to zergology, with a few minor modifications to gas / lair timing in order to include nydus. I also made did a quick analysis videos of one of your replays and added a few of my own comments.
ZvP: 2 base swarm host [velvex] - Zergology
![[image loading]](http://mikemetcalf.com/sc2/zergology/zvp_swarmhost.jpg)
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Do you guys think its viable for Protoss to go FFE --> 2 SG Carrier against this? I've been playing random and messing around with some builds and have had incredible success against the Nydus + Spore + Queen + Swarm Host + Hydra contain. I only have 2-4 carriers out when the attack starts but its enough to keep the locusts from doing much damage and eventually I add a robo / couple observers and break the contain easy.
Is this only because I'm playing at the Platinum / Diamond level where it isn't executed very well? I'm hoping it may even work against better players since I executed it so poorly in my games. (Forgot upgrades, bad macro, etc.) I didn't actually start making the first 2 carriers until there was already a nydus and few SH/spores setup. After I broke the contain I just built up my carrier numbers and eventually pushed out. The Zerg already had 4 bases well established against my 2 but Carriers are so dang good against it that I just went and took out 2 bases like nothing. Finished maxing out and then wiped the rest of the zerg easy. Is this actually viable? Or should I find a better strat against this?
If anyone wants to see the replay...this is me playing like absolute crap...getting way behind but still winning easy with carrier deathball. http://drop.sc/322906
Lol....after watching the replay myself I noticed just how bad my opponent played. Floated a bazillion minerals and didn't get Third up until around 12:30. So I guess you can take this with a big grain of salt.
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This looks beautiful. Time to try it out!
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EPT
