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[G][D] 2 Base Swarm Host + Spore ZvP - Page 3

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Obamanation666
Profile Joined October 2011
United States70 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-21 20:21:30
February 21 2013 20:04 GMT
#41
I've been doing something very similar to this, but it hits at 10 minutes 30 seconds. I 15 hatch, make two queens, saturate my bases, scout with 1 pair of lings, and drone like mad on two bases. I take one gas after my pool finishes, and as soon as I have 100 gas, I upgrade to lair. I take a 3rd inside of my base, (if possible, using it to connect my main and my nat with creep, so I don't have to waste an inject) not at a mineral line, and then take all remaining gases. I do this to pump additional queens and have larvae because I forgo hydra's entirely during my initial push; I save the gas for additional swarmhosts. I make 6 queens and a nydus worm, and when I arrive at his base, at 10:30, I have 6 swarmhosts (locust upgraded), 6 queens, 9 drones (6 spines and 3 spores), 6 overlords (speed upgrade w/ one overseer). As soon as I've set up my contain, I immediately take 2 additional bases, upgrade to hive (abduct works great with this strat), pump mostly swarmhosts, and add tech structures according to my opponents composition. It's been working really well for me. The queens are a great addition for the reason that running off of two bases will leave you very mineral heavy, and the queens with transfuse behind a wall of spines, spores, and swarmhosts, are incredibly deadly. Not to mention, when he try's to break your contain, you can nydus into the back of his base and flood him with the additional tech (banelings, roaches, hydra's, etc...) you took after setting up outside of his main. I should also say that at the 11:00 mark your economy will really be kicking in, so your going to have an additional 6 swarmhosts and expo's + queens by the 12:30 minute mark.
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
February 21 2013 20:24 GMT
#42
On February 20 2013 00:45 dicedicerevolution wrote:
Open with 10pool. Nydus instead of OL creep drop (economy is better relative to just opening 2base vs. FFE), Vipers vs. 2robo colossi. Opponent is GM for what it's worth.

http://drop.sc/305766

Spores are so good against Colossies, and cheap to make Vipers.

Also it looks like Spores queens and Vipers can be viable. Spore transfuses with abducts and Swarmhosts can be a nice combo
usNEUX
Profile Joined March 2012
United States76 Posts
February 21 2013 20:29 GMT
#43
@obama

Replay? And what league are you? You shouldn't be floating enough minerals that you need a macro hatch so I don't know if your mechanics are bad or something and you certainly don't need 6 spines and 3 spores. Swarm hosts are not larvae intensive at all. If you are constantly building queens out of your 2 bases then you will end up with the same amount. Your build also has half as many swarm hosts as what seems to be the standard has at 10:30. You don't need 6 spines if you have enough swarm hosts, which you don't. 6 queens in your contain is also overkill against air if you just make 2-4 spores. You shouldn't really be taking damage at your line of swarm hosts so you shouldn't need transfuse.

At first glance it looks like you're just wasting a ton of minerals on things you don't need. If you're floating minerals then take your 3/4 gases earlier and a 3rd, but you really shouldn't have many extra.
Unter allem Diebesgesindel sind die Narren die schlimmsten. Sie rauben euch beides, Zeit und Stimmung. - Goethe. NEVER GIVE UP NEVER SURRENDER.
Obamanation666
Profile Joined October 2011
United States70 Posts
February 21 2013 21:03 GMT
#44
@ usNEUX

I appreciate the advice, I'm a zerg smurf. I was a masters toss back in WOL, but I only recently picked up and started playing zerg. I picked up the third on many occasions to flood his base with bane/lings (nydus) after setting up the contain, but I understand what your getting at. I still like a high queen count though, I find them to work great at soaking up damage that makes it way through your locusts.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-21 21:10:15
February 21 2013 21:09 GMT
#45
Been doing this a ton on ladder (but I always bring queens, and keep bringing more if they are making air), but I finally faced this one korean guy twice who reacts imo the perfect way, first going into a quick warp prism harass forcing swarm hosts there, then warping in a bunch of stalkers out somewhere safe on the map and with observers goes for 6 warpgate pressure to threaten counterattack/base trade while going for a quick colossus followup off 2 base.
particularly important was how well he multitasked, moved his army around very intelligently to threaten swarm host reinforcements, threaten the swarm host frontal cluster a little, right at the time in-between locust spawns, when your locusts are out of position, and very soon making a very serious threat of base-trading with his stalker/sentry/colossus army.
bring 1 probe inside the warp prism to make pylons on the map for a static warp-in location, so the warp prism can be mobile. if you retreat your swarm hosts you have no pressure obviously and he just takes a 3rd, if you try to pressure while also defending your main, your swarm hosts numbers are a little too small and he can sweep his army back to take out the swarm host front as he's also cutting off reinforcements, only other option really is to force a base trade scenario which actually might work but is uncertain who will win, depends on who executes everything better and really both of you can rebuild your bases to make for a very bizarre game.
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
usNEUX
Profile Joined March 2012
United States76 Posts
February 21 2013 21:27 GMT
#46
I think going nydus with your swarm hosts is enough to shut down warp prism harass because you can pull queens/2-4 swarm hosts home easily. If you throw down a spire after getting like 10 swarm hosts then you can be sure to shut this down completely and then be ready to deal with SG/colossi.
Unter allem Diebesgesindel sind die Narren die schlimmsten. Sie rauben euch beides, Zeit und Stimmung. - Goethe. NEVER GIVE UP NEVER SURRENDER.
rEalGuapo
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany832 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 17:16:58
March 18 2013 16:45 GMT
#47
On February 22 2013 06:09 Zelniq wrote:
Been doing this a ton on ladder (but I always bring queens, and keep bringing more if they are making air), but I finally faced this one korean guy twice who reacts imo the perfect way, first going into a quick warp prism harass forcing swarm hosts there, then warping in a bunch of stalkers out somewhere safe on the map and with observers goes for 6 warpgate pressure to threaten counterattack/base trade while going for a quick colossus followup off 2 base.
particularly important was how well he multitasked, moved his army around very intelligently to threaten swarm host reinforcements, threaten the swarm host frontal cluster a little, right at the time in-between locust spawns, when your locusts are out of position, and very soon making a very serious threat of base-trading with his stalker/sentry/colossus army.
bring 1 probe inside the warp prism to make pylons on the map for a static warp-in location, so the warp prism can be mobile. if you retreat your swarm hosts you have no pressure obviously and he just takes a 3rd, if you try to pressure while also defending your main, your swarm hosts numbers are a little too small and he can sweep his army back to take out the swarm host front as he's also cutting off reinforcements, only other option really is to force a base trade scenario which actually might work but is uncertain who will win, depends on who executes everything better and really both of you can rebuild your bases to make for a very bizarre game.


Can you upload the replays? I lose every single game to this stuff...

Might just be that I lose every single game to cheese today but I am pretty frustrated with SH rush.

Edit: talking to Zeliq here
Skytt
Profile Joined June 2011
Scotland333 Posts
March 18 2013 17:15 GMT
#48
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/99887-babyknight-vs-leenock-game-2-round-of-32-mlg-dallas-2013

VOD of Leenock doing something similar vs Babyknight this weekend, he did a similar build in game 1 but had to transition out of it. This game was more successful and won the game with it.
Obamanation666
Profile Joined October 2011
United States70 Posts
March 18 2013 20:19 GMT
#49
While this type of play is really fun, it's too dependent imo on not being scouted. I Main as a Protoss (Master League), but during Beta I worked my way to diamond as a Zerg. This strategy worked to great affect until I started to reach higher levels of play. Their are too many tell tale signs when you start sending drones or picking up spores and spreading a creep highway across the map. I don't know about you, maybe I was doing something wrong, but it seemed that good opponents nearly always spotted this before I could get my contain fully established. If they catch you while your in the act of setting up, it's a really one sided fight, and the toss gains an easy win. I do want to say though that I saw a professional player using something like this (I forget who it was), but he didn't try to set up a contain right away. He used the spores and swarmhosts to secure his 3rd and slowly took over the entire map. By the end of the game, I think he had over 100 spores/spines literally covering the map. It was really sick, and very effective. Skytoss wasn't able to do anything against it. The swarmhosts took care of everything on the ground and the Vipers would pull his carriers/tempests into about 50 spores and hydras/corruptors. A very interesting game; I wish I had the replay.
velvex
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany226 Posts
March 18 2013 21:48 GMT
#50
I still do this and it works for me. Unfortunately, ZvZ and ZvT hold me back right now to obscure dimensions; meaning that I win at least 90% of my ZvPs while the other match-ups level me out a little above 50%. But as long as high-level players (read: pros) haven't done it exactly like this, I continue to believe this is ultra-strong at all levels. I don't think that pros know both the exact strength of an early SH contain and a super-effective counter by the Protoss with apparently not having tried this out at all.

I agree that the setting-up phase is by far the most dangerous part. But with the pay-off being an extremely cost-efficient Spore/SH setup, I think you can afford a lot of adjustments that increase your chances for getting that. And if those adjustments are to be making eight Spores at eight different spots on the map, then they may be.

Btw, the counter Zelniq faced sounds about right to me. Being super-active is probably the best thing Protoss can do.
IncoGnit9
Profile Joined March 2012
26 Posts
March 20 2013 19:41 GMT
#51
At around what timing does the 2 base contain hits?
velvex
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany226 Posts
March 20 2013 20:03 GMT
#52
It doesn't really hit at a specific timing because it is more like a slow siege, not unsimilar to a 1/1/1 in TvP. But your first two or three Swarm Hosts should hatch between 9:00 and 9:30, and you can make four to five Swarm Hosts per minute.
IncoGnit9
Profile Joined March 2012
26 Posts
March 20 2013 20:06 GMT
#53
Hm that is pretty late i would guess.

I do a similar push but with nydus and it usually hits around 8:20-9:00 with ling speed taken really early.
IamPryda
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1186 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-21 04:36:37
March 21 2013 04:35 GMT
#54
How does this build do vs gateway plus warp prism 2 base allins
Moar banelings less qq
1v1Alpha
Profile Joined October 2012
33 Posts
March 22 2013 11:35 GMT
#55
this build is easily countered by 2 stargate phoenix. In hots if a protoss scouts zerg 2 base and go double stargate mass phoenix, it beats every 2 base zerg tech. They will have around 10 phoenix when you move out for 10 ish minute swarm host push. If you go with queens, they lift and kill all queens then make an oracle and lift all swarm hosts. If you do the overlord + spore, they can kill overlords and you cant spread creep so spores cant move. You dont have enough gas to go 2 base swarm host hydra queen and they can transition to colossi by the time you do. Phooenixes force spores or some other defence in order for you to move out as well without losing all of your overlords beforehand.
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
March 22 2013 11:55 GMT
#56
swarm hosts and widow mines are both something that blows my head right off
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
bertu
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Brazil871 Posts
March 22 2013 12:08 GMT
#57
On February 22 2013 06:09 Zelniq wrote:
Been doing this a ton on ladder (but I always bring queens, and keep bringing more if they are making air), but I finally faced this one korean guy twice who reacts imo the perfect way, first going into a quick warp prism harass forcing swarm hosts there, then warping in a bunch of stalkers out somewhere safe on the map and with observers goes for 6 warpgate pressure to threaten counterattack/base trade while going for a quick colossus followup off 2 base.
particularly important was how well he multitasked, moved his army around very intelligently to threaten swarm host reinforcements, threaten the swarm host frontal cluster a little, right at the time in-between locust spawns, when your locusts are out of position, and very soon making a very serious threat of base-trading with his stalker/sentry/colossus army.
bring 1 probe inside the warp prism to make pylons on the map for a static warp-in location, so the warp prism can be mobile. if you retreat your swarm hosts you have no pressure obviously and he just takes a 3rd, if you try to pressure while also defending your main, your swarm hosts numbers are a little too small and he can sweep his army back to take out the swarm host front as he's also cutting off reinforcements, only other option really is to force a base trade scenario which actually might work but is uncertain who will win, depends on who executes everything better and really both of you can rebuild your bases to make for a very bizarre game.


This sounds like a great response. Any chance you can share the replays?
SEKO SEKO SEKO
velvex
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany226 Posts
March 22 2013 21:06 GMT
#58
On March 21 2013 13:35 IamPryda wrote:
How does this build do vs gateway plus warp prism 2 base allins

You mean with Sentries and ramp-blocking? I haven't played against that, but if you can hold this on three bases, you sure can hold this on two.

On March 22 2013 20:35 1v1Alpha wrote:
this build is easily countered by 2 stargate phoenix. In hots if a protoss scouts zerg 2 base and go double stargate mass phoenix, it beats every 2 base zerg tech. They will have around 10 phoenix when you move out for 10 ish minute swarm host push. If you go with queens, they lift and kill all queens then make an oracle and lift all swarm hosts. If you do the overlord + spore, they can kill overlords and you cant spread creep so spores cant move. You dont have enough gas to go 2 base swarm host hydra queen and they can transition to colossi by the time you do. Phooenixes force spores or some other defence in order for you to move out as well without losing all of your overlords beforehand.

Phoenixes cannot do stop a Nydus though, and once I get enough Queens with Transfuse, I can still get up the contain. Also, double Stargate Phoenix doesn't seem like a very solid build, even (or especially) against a 2 Base Zerg. You can hardly make any Sentries, which makes you very vulnerable to any Speedling or Baneling play.

On March 22 2013 21:08 bertu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2013 06:09 Zelniq wrote:
Been doing this a ton on ladder (but I always bring queens, and keep bringing more if they are making air), but I finally faced this one korean guy twice who reacts imo the perfect way, first going into a quick warp prism harass forcing swarm hosts there, then warping in a bunch of stalkers out somewhere safe on the map and with observers goes for 6 warpgate pressure to threaten counterattack/base trade while going for a quick colossus followup off 2 base.
particularly important was how well he multitasked, moved his army around very intelligently to threaten swarm host reinforcements, threaten the swarm host frontal cluster a little, right at the time in-between locust spawns, when your locusts are out of position, and very soon making a very serious threat of base-trading with his stalker/sentry/colossus army.
bring 1 probe inside the warp prism to make pylons on the map for a static warp-in location, so the warp prism can be mobile. if you retreat your swarm hosts you have no pressure obviously and he just takes a 3rd, if you try to pressure while also defending your main, your swarm hosts numbers are a little too small and he can sweep his army back to take out the swarm host front as he's also cutting off reinforcements, only other option really is to force a base trade scenario which actually might work but is uncertain who will win, depends on who executes everything better and really both of you can rebuild your bases to make for a very bizarre game.


This sounds like a great response. Any chance you can share the replays?

I think you can't watch Beta replays anymore.
VelRa_G
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada304 Posts
March 22 2013 21:20 GMT
#59
GSTL Spoilers:

+ Show Spoiler +
For what it's worth, (Z)Leenock used a 2-base swarm host strategy with Nydus versus (P)Squirtle in Set 6 of FXO vs IM last night. It didn't pan out for him but there were moments where it looked like he could have pulled ahead.
Nuda Veritas
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1181 Posts
March 22 2013 21:42 GMT
#60
On February 13 2013 10:41 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2013 10:26 BigRedDog wrote:
Can i ask how come you build pool first instead of hatch...

Is it because in case the toss build a pylon in your exp?

I've been looking for diff strat than 3 base max roach/hydra..or mass mutas. Will give this a shot.

Thank you!


Pylon at expo and cannon rush. You have to defend a cannon rush when hatch firsting absolutely perfectly or you will lose the natural and well lose the game. One small mistake and his cannon rush succeeds.


that and 2gate proxy. People have been using this way more than in WoL at it's last balance state, especially on maps like Akilon Flats where there are so many good spots. It's impossible to hold while going hatch first and is actually surprisingly strong vs pool first unless you scout it early
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