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I saw Psy doing this in one of his vods on youtube ages ago. I like to open 4 queen and send one of them down to a sneaky spot somewhere near the front of their base with an OV (usually one of my first 3) and drop like 3 tumors. I'm not sure what's optimal for gas timings yet. I prefer my opening where I forego gas until the 5:00 min mark in order to get 4 queens. 2 gas at 5:00, 3rd gas at 5:30, 4th gas when lair starts. I do not go up to 20 drones on my natural, instead stopping at 16 on mins at each base with full gas saturation.
The extra queen lets you deflect stalker/zealot pressure while letting you also send one across the map. This push MUCH more powerful if you have creep moving up with your locusts. I do not get OV speed because I do not use OVs for creep and I don't really need to scout because I'm dead if it's a super fast gateway all-in and he's dead if it's anything else. You get all the scouting you need when your locusts are knocking on his front door.
I usually send 3 drones down to my queen/OV staging area to make spores that ideally finish just as my swarm hosts arrive. Again, PUSH CREEP! Locusts gain a substantial speed bonus on creep. I don't think you need more than 3 because you have a queen and can get hydras, which will be much more useful in the long run.
I watched one of your replays. Our builds result in a similar number of swarm hosts popping out around the same time. You had 8 at 10 minutes while I had 9. However, I don't think either of us has the build down to a science yet so this can probably be optimized. Because of this timing, we are safe against any 2 base play that pushes out later than 9 minutes.
I would say a good refinement would be to Overseer scout @lair 100% to check for Stargate. If yes, drop hydra den faster and get 4-5 after you have a handful of swarm hosts because they will prevent voidrays from killing locusts for free.
It's also very important to know to transition. After a certain number of swarm hosts (lets say somewhere between 10 and 15) you want to either start getting hydra or corruptor/muta. Hydra will let you break a player trying to push you back with air while you need either corruptors or muta to deal with colossi. Colossi are the correct answer to this build. I have had a ridiculous win ratio with this build, losing only when my opponent goes for colossi immediately after seeing my swarm hosts.
I would say that when you are getting to this transition point you also need to decide whether to take your 3rd or just to mass units and go for the kill. I like to fall back on the adage, "When ahead, get more ahead," and just take the 3rd. If the Protoss manages to break out with Colossi then you can be in trouble on 2 bases.
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Interesting strategy, I like the idea of adding Queens to this. Is there any chance of getting High-Level Replays. maybe nixi could post one of his?
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@EuroRabbit - Well, in that case, you either stall until you have Swarm Hosts out and watch them absolutely murder the timing, or you bridge the gap with a few Roaches. I don't think it's an issue. These Gateway timings can be dealt with in WoL on three bases, so it should be possible on two bases in HotS as well.
@Goldfish - Okay, thanks, seems I misread Liquipedia because it says "detection within sight range". So with the Oracle being that good of a Detector, Stargate seems more and more the best option against this. But I still think that you can force a base trade by making extra Spores with your Swarm Hosts, and defend that and at least safe your main.
@usNEUX - Good thoughts. Originally, I used to bring a Queen with the push, too, probably because TLO always does it when doing these kind of builds (and he surely does these often!). But I have noticed that I don't really need her. Sure, having a lot of creep is nice, but I much prefer Overlord speed because it helps so much with scouting. You can actually fly several rounds above their main base and know exactly what they are doing without losing even one Overlord. You can also use Overlords to speed up your Locusts, of course.
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http://drop.sc/305489
Just played this game, thought it went really well. Good example of how I execute this. Took first 2 gas at 5:00, next 2 right as lair started. I have 7 swarm hosts, 3 spores, and a queen at his front at 10 minutes. Akilon Flats is pretty big so this timing is slightly later than on other maps. He does not react well and I win easily.
A big advantage of 4 queens is that you also have better creep spread from your front which really helps you reinforce. Because I figured the Protoss would be contained, I moved OVs towards mid to drop creep to make reinforcements arrive faster, especially because I was going with hydras since he went stargate. This allows you to skip hydra speed in favor of range because they will always be on creep anyway.
I took my 3rd at 9:30 or so. This, in addition to having made 4 spores because I saw his phoenix, results in being able to build less swarm hosts. However, this allows you to invest in tech instead. I will drop an evo chamber for +1 range around 10:00 next game and see how that works.
I'm also getting the feeling that 12 swarm hosts is enough. Past this point you are going to face diminishing returns because your locust ball cannot attack all at once and you lose attack time. After you hit this point, I'd say you should saturate your 3rd and go for your tech of choice.
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On February 18 2013 13:24 usNEUX wrote:http://drop.sc/305489Just played this game, thought it went really well. Good example of how I execute this. Took first 2 gas at 5:00, next 2 right as lair started. I have 7 swarm hosts, 3 spores, and a queen at his front at 10 minutes. Akilon Flats is pretty big so this timing is slightly later than on other maps. He does not react well and I win easily. A big advantage of 4 queens is that you also have better creep spread from your front which really helps you reinforce. Because I figured the Protoss would be contained, I moved OVs towards mid to drop creep to make reinforcements arrive faster, especially because I was going with hydras since he went stargate. This allows you to skip hydra speed in favor of range because they will always be on creep anyway. I took my 3rd at 9:30 or so. This, in addition to having made 4 spores because I saw his phoenix, results in being able to build less swarm hosts. However, this allows you to invest in tech instead. I will drop an evo chamber for +1 range around 10:00 next game and see how that works. I'm also getting the feeling that 12 swarm hosts is enough. Past this point you are going to face diminishing returns because your locust ball cannot attack all at once and you lose attack time. After you hit this point, I'd say you should saturate your 3rd and go for your tech of choice.
Interesting replay. Your opponent really did struggle to work out how to deal with those hosts haha. Skipping the nydus network did net you 2 more swarm hosts than you would be able to afford using a nydus variant, but it brings a few additional disadvantages over a nydus version like the OP describes.
- Your reinforcements would take a lot longer to arrive
- You can not supplement your host nest with queens for additional anti air so you are more reliant on spores.
- Counter attacks against your main would also be harder to defend without the ability to nydus your hosts back home.
- Being able to walk a queen the full length of the map to set up the tumors may be more difficult or impossible on different maps without it being scouted or intercepted by pushes which are leaving the opponents base at similar times.
All in all I would say that your version comes off as a little more cheesy because it takes many more risks and is less defensible. It's awesome that people are trying all different variants of 2 base swarm host tho so we can really get a good idea of their limits.
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This is what Babyknight did vs Nerchio in game one. Very strong indeed.
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So what is protoss supposed to do about this? I've only run into it one or two times and it just seems extremely silly to play against, especially if you' are not doing a robo opener that allows you to quickly tech to Collosus. What is the "right" response? From what I can see in this guide, if you place your SH down, make queen and spore, and scout the P's reaction, you are in great shape with a response otw.
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The most important thing is to not suicide units. Almost all Protoss players at a master level still don't know how to play against it, and give me ridiculously lopsided engagements. Stay in your base, try to limit damage (don't hesitate to waste forcefields and add canons) and tech. Once you get either collossi (if you went robo) or tempests (stargate), proceed to get rid of the siege.
The other thing, make sure you try to counterattack. Warp prism or oracles can do a lot of damage, and the zerg player has to divide his defense between the siege and his bases.
So basically, patience, good control, counter attacks and good multitasking. It's not easy but trust me, it's even harder for the Zerg :p
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On February 19 2013 00:44 MilesTeg wrote:
The most important thing is to not suicide units. Almost all Protoss players at a master level still don't know how to play against it, and give me ridiculously lopsided engagements. Stay in your base, try to limit damage (don't hesitate to waste forcefields and add canons) and tech. Once you get either collossi (if you went robo) or tempests (stargate), proceed to get rid of the siege.
The other thing, make sure you try to counterattack. Warp prism or oracles can do a lot of damage, and the zerg player has to divide his defense between the siege and his bases.
So basically, patience, good control, counter attacks and good multitasking. It's not easy but trust me, it's even harder for the Zerg :p
Alright thanks, Not sure about harder for the zerg but, I will try this. The person I played doing it left a SH in his main to deal with my counter drop. GM zergs seem to be good at their 2b all in haha. I will post replay if I run into it and have trouble. Thank you 
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I went into unranked queue and did this real quick. Masters game for what it's worth, I added spines, queens, and elevator tactics. Opponent opened 1gate/stargate and got to ranged colossus but still lost.
http://drop.sc/305597
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On February 19 2013 03:42 dicedicerevolution wrote:I went into unranked queue and did this real quick. Masters game for what it's worth, I added spines, queens, and elevator tactics. Opponent opened 1gate/stargate and got to ranged colossus but still lost. http://drop.sc/305597
Ok wow that was an awesome push. The elevator is a great addition to the build. If you want to be even more annoying you can move one of your overlords up his cliff just after your creep tumors are down for just a second to start the growth up there so you can creep into their main while pressuring their nat before drop is complete XD
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me as a Protoss can say its very hard to deal with especially with early Queens with transfuse rdy. Best way to deal with it is immortal sentry observer for sure i guess but not sure about that.
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I think you can skip hydra's altogether with the first initial attack, and instead opt for a high queen count. Save the gas for a nydus or additional swarmhosts.
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Ohh yeah, and for my protoss brethren. You do not want to engage this straight up if at all possible. The odds of you winning are not good in the face of a competent zerg. Instead, you want to completely skip the entire engagement and head straight for his base. When he begins spreading his locus swarm toward you, move in circles around it, never engaging, and when blink is finished, blink over his locust pick off a couple of hosts; rinse and repeat. If you get pinned into your base by swarmhosts, odds are your going to lose. The trick is to never engage the locust head on.
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On February 19 2013 08:15 Sated wrote:
Grubby executed this defence perfectly against TLO yesterday in their 2GD KotH series. It didn't even look close. This strategy is a gimmick and nothing more.
I disagree... TLO made some mistakes in that game. We just need better Zergs executing it. We shall see in the coming months I suppose.
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Open with 10pool. Nydus instead of OL creep drop (economy is better relative to just opening 2base vs. FFE), Vipers vs. 2robo colossi. Opponent is GM for what it's worth.
http://drop.sc/305766
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If you are pinned in your base, the proper counter for protoss is to go tempest. He will snipe your spores and your econ will be slow on 2 bases, not to mention tempests are a tech advantage over swarm hosts in my opinion. I haven't had much success with swarm hosts as part of a late game composition. Maybe someone can demonstrate otherwise, I'd love to see it. Regardless, you absolutely need to take a 3rd off this. Staying on 2 bases is not viable. Beating grandmaster is most likely because of their lack of experience against it..
The best usages I have seen of swarm hosts thus far have been defensive.
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loving the 2base swarm host builds so far, keeps toss in their base while u can expand and drone up. Mass spore+swarm hosts ftw
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@osiris
How would Protoss handle this if they didn't open Stargate though? By the time they get a SG and beacon up you've done a lot of damage or forced a ton of sentries. If zerg keeps up with scouting during the attack and sees this coming he can go spire and go for a muta transition because your stalker count is probably going to be super low.
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EPT
