Hello Terrans, Many of us want to go mech. More so with the impending release of HotS, giving us even more options to mech with the new battle hellion and widow mine. There are a few reasons why you may want to mech. Whether it be because you don't have the APM or marine micro to go bio, or that your positional sense is particularly excellent. But, until very recently, people have only really gone mech in TvT. And even that died out at the start of 2012, replaced by ol' reliable, marine tank. In TvZ, it was pretty rare to see, until the August of this year when Mvp (of course it would be him), introduced the fast double armory variation of mech. This is mostly irrelevant however, as HotS is a new game. People are coming up with insane and wonderful strategies, that manage to make up for some of the weaknesses of mech by virtue of how unorthodox they were. I feel this needs to be documented, so it can be easily found. Anyway, the point of this slightly rambling introduction was, if you wish to mech, this is the number 1 place to find discussion, build orders, replays and VODs.
First of all however, I need your help.It needs to be our mission statement to keep this up to date, and reliable with sources. Are you friend with a pretty decent GM player who you know mechs? Ask him for a replay pack, or maybe even a guide! Did you watch some amazing game where you saw some very interesting openings into mech? Link it here! However, if you do link a singular replay or VOD, then please, please make sure that it is a VOD which has something unique in it. For example, if you find a completely new build, or maybe you find a VOD of something standard, but the Terran's opponent has done something that forces you to react differently and change the build. Here is a suggestion on how you set out a submission:
I want to point out I only recently started playing and watching HotS (literally today), so it will be a while before the VODs and Stream section gets filled out if it is mainly me actually contributing stuff ^^
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
Thanks! Good to see other people are interested in mech, I hope we can get HTOMario in here giving people advice as he is probably the best player who regularly posts in mech threads (avilo and TheDwf occasionally posted in the WOL thread though).
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
I can add a BO for TvP. I "discovered" this one trying lot of things and trying to stop almost any all-in and cheese P can use in the early game. My surprise was that Dragon is using a similar one,so it is working well.
12 rax
Ones the RAX finishes send the SCV to socut enemy and keep him near the P base to send him back at 5:00 to see if he expands.
13 gas 15 OC
2 marines 16 2nd depot (both depots are near the mineral line.Dont like to wall vs P because of the stalker/zealot/MScore poking)
Factory with the first 100 gas 2nd gas as soon as possible after factory bunker(loaded with the 2 marines) Reactor on Rax with next 50 gas and Lab on Factory to be able to produce Siege tanks as soon as possible Supply depot at 19-20 supply Ebay at 6:00 mins and Turret in mineral line the moment the ebay is ready Send ther 3-4 marines to prevent proxy Oracles(if they come with two of them we can easy lose 20 workers) CC when possible
This is the opening.The follow depends of what are we scouting.If there are only gate units and no expand go make some bunkers and prepare for allin.
Starport/s will make you build 2-3 starports and 1-2 factories to defend early Tempest/Void Ray. I ve tried many combos vs P air and the best is Viking+RAven.Thors are bad because of the Tempest Range and Carriers make them shoot only the Interceptors.PDD form Ravens and focus fire with Vikings kill everything P got in the air.
Gate+Robo units= Chargelots/Blinkstalkers/HTs/Archons+ Collosi or Immortals.We need at least 2 rax+lab to make ghosts for EMPs.Without this our Siege lines are useless.If you go for heavy tank composition you need 7-8 ghosts,15-20 Hellbats and 3-4 Medivacs.If P switch to air,then we go to the option I mentioned before.
The Upgrades from the Armory are expensive and we may got them after 10 mins.Our 3rd can be pretty late(13-15 mins) but we can do well harassin the P with BFH drops or Hellbat drops.I preffer the BFH because of the mobility and because any good player will pull his Probes and Hellbats will die for nothing.
Our 3rd must be wll protected by at least one PF,turret rings and one Sensor tower in each corner of our main and natural/3rd to prevent Warp Prisms.
Once we reach the 16-18 mins we must think to take our 4th and maybe 5th both PF with turrets and SensorTowers and make more Starports/Factories and OCs.20 mins is the moment to sacrifice some SCVs and gain more Army supply,because we cant move as a ball and must siege to useour force.Try not to stop harassing using hellion/hellbat drops.Actually 8 hellbats can kill a Nexus pretty quick and never ever forget to SCAN the P army composition and their place on the map to be prepared always.
I usually got 5-8 Factories and 3-5 Starports.The OCs are 7-8 as well.First to upgrade is the +1 armor,then +1 attack and finaly the AIR +1 attack,but this will substitute the +1 ground if we see the enemy going early air.The Hi-trac on the ebay is as well a good upgrade to make,so our turrets and PFs can shoot further.
Hope this help everyone trying mech in TvP with tanks as core units.
On February 02 2013 04:48 kollin wrote: If you make that into a proper guide and post it as a thread I'll link in the guides section ^^
Sorry,but I have no idea how to do this.Its the first time I do something like this.If you want to modify it all and put it in a thread,feel free to do whatever you wish
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
TvT/TvZ it can be good though.
I respect you and your opinions (which quite a few happend to be spot on - Raven's HSM energy for example) and I've been watching your stream and rooting for you like from day 1.
But, I truly believe you have some kind of wrong attitude in TvP currently.
In TvZ, you are more than fine now. You have solid builds to rely on, timings figured out for necessarry tech switches (Ravens), you can rely on your macro and micro to handle Vipers (which I believe are causing more headaches than Tempests). You got it all. Same goes for TvT, which is currently messy, because of Hellbat drops and everyone experimenting with mech builds, etc...
But in TvP, man... I don't know. I think you are just not willing to let the Tank have "support" role. I think there is some stupid thing you are missing. I see very good players doing well with mech in TvP and no, it's not just Dragon beating some random guys that have no idea how to abuse mech. I saw Supernova winning with very strong 2base timings (against Hasu, multiple times, once he tried Tempests, than HT's, pure Zealot/Immortal/Archon, he really knew what to do) to prevent heavy air, I've seen Beastyqt win insane 1h TvP (against Macsed I think) with all tech paths unlocked and I've seen many more games like that. That really only tells you one thing and that is, mech is just about to get this "viable" label.
And please, leave this argument "no tank no mech" have a rest once...
So yeah, mech in TvP is not necessarily stright up broken, but hell, it's definitely more viable than in WoL. I've been meching, watching guys meching, watching you meching for almost 2 years in WoL and let me say that I know, what I'm talking about, when I say that mech is in better shape in HotS.
You might have this Carrier/Tempest/HT composition, which is unbeatable, similarily to Broodlord/Corruptor in WoL, but for me (and for many people), this is not a reason to not try to mech in TvP. All races have issues with skytoss currently, I'm pretty sure it's going to get nerfed sooner or later. There are possibly more things that needs to be figured out (proxy Oracle), but I can't believe that YOU are not trying everything you are able to come up with. I think you are just broken still from WoL and you lost your energy on experimenting more in HotS, which really is pitty.
I challange you - try it, do it... If you lose, analyse your game, see how you can adapt, change your build, scout more, just try more and don't lose to the same thing again. It's just mind blowing that you are not willing to give it another shot while other people have good success with mech TvP.
On February 02 2013 05:44 kollin wrote: I agree with him on the no tank no mech. Building 10 thors and no tanks, quite frankly, isn't mech. It's big beefy slow bio.
I know what you mean, but for me, TvP where you don't research stim is still an improvement from WoL. I see people want this possition tank-based play, I want it too, but that is hard in SC2 and chances are low it's going to change. Still people are doing it and I see them winning..
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
TvT/TvZ it can be good though.
That seems to be a common story among those of us that try mech TvP at any level. I'm not sure what it'll take to dispel the myth that mech TvP is actually viable against players on your own skill level. We get a few notable players mech against a player that should rarely or never beat them or do some sort of high risk strat, and suddenly there are 5000 new "believers" in mech.
It kinda reminds me of a few months back when Terran was already struggling against Zerg, but MVP goes and stomps all over a foreigner tournament of mostly bad Zergs. Suddenly the community uses it as an example of "everything is fine!"
More on topic though, what's the build order for that hellbat/marauder push against Zerg?
Well, a little general advice from me on the general state of mech in Hots (especially vP), and on the new units from other races vMech
-Viper : Nice unit adding some new elements in the vZ MU. The cloud size is a bit big imo, but fine unit. -Swarm hosts : Really annoying, forces tons of tanks, but not a that big threat
-Oracles : The unit that is killing my soul these days. The problem is that, even when you know they're coming and have the right defenses ready, they can still get like 15 scv in 5 seconds >.< -Tempests : a bit too strong, but manageable. Ravens hard-counters them, and Emp + Yamato OS them. They're also terrible vs vikings, but they're too fast/maniable imo, kite too well
-Hellbats : Kinda op in terms of workers killing, fine in direct battles -Mine : a funny defensive tool, but besides that..
TvT : Right now, the matchup is all about retarded hellbat drop, the mid/lategame is the same as in WoL
TvZ : In the midgame, roach/hydra is REALLY powerful, and swarm-hosts contains are deadly if you don't get ready by making tons of tanks. Lategame is easier with new infestor, hellbat/thor and new Hsm (<3). Basically TvZ is using the same composition as before, the main change is that midgame is a bit harder due to better Z compositions and lategame is easier with terrans modifications
TvP : Early game is the big problem right now, because of ONE FUCKING UNIT : the oracle. You have to get specific stuff to counter it, and even if you get it, you can loose tons of scv... So for the moment i'm testing some variations of CC + 111 with differents timings but basically oracles is the big problem right now , and it's true for bio too in fact --' Midgame is basically the same, except you get hellbats which are SUPER good at taking damage and clearing zealots Lategame (or figthing air in general, it's basically the same), you basically need to get whatever you want on ground (ghosts/tank/thors/hellbat in whatever number you want), vikings (mandatory to fight tempests), ravens (deny tempests, HSM VR and carriers) and BCs (Yamato tempests and carriers)
I still find Thors and BC useless in TvP.Thors are outrangesd by tempest and the BCs are slow and sioll vulnerable to Feedback,stalkers and the Tempets with their bonus damage.Open with Hellbat vs P is pretty good,but you must prepare for counter and expand later.
The Oracle...Real Issue here.He comes at 7 mins I found and you need at least one turret and 4 marines.He must be focused on SCVs,because if not,just try to kill the turret.Still a lot to invest to stop this harass,but P as well take big risk building it.150 150 for the Starport and the oracle cost is pretty much,so we can invest some resourses to stop it.I think its fine,but still too deadly.
The counter to air toss is TON of vikings+ravens.PDD counters so good the Tempest.
Thors are still good to take damages (playing without thors on the ground to protect your tanks is a suicide), and now they can at least fight with carriers and VRs. And when they reach tempests they can deal a tons of damages. BCs are good versus everything but tempests, which are countereted by pdd, and yamato + emp instantly kills a tempest
edit : btw, some replays totally randoms games on the beta, i saved mb 10% of my games there, they aren't high lvl games with definitive builds or anything, but well, some people are asking me to release these so..
On February 04 2013 07:24 Lyyna wrote: Thors are still good to take damages (playing without thors on the ground to protect your tanks is a suicide), and now they can at least fight with carriers and VRs. And when they reach tempests they can deal a tons of damages. BCs are good versus everything but tempests, which are countereted by pdd, and yamato + emp instantly kills a tempest
edit : btw, some replays totally randoms games on the beta, i saved mb 10% of my games there, they aren't high lvl games with definitive builds or anything, but well, some people are asking me to release these so..
Hellion banshee is still viable, though what seems to be far stronger is hellbat drops. Just watch the Last vs Soulkey games, in the MLG Winter Season Showdowns and you should see a number of different ways to do them as well as holding off pressure etc
Nice thanks. Is it common to do the hellbat drops after expansion? I barely ever played 1 base in WoL - at least in master league. However I am completely new to HotS. Is it still very common for 2 base early?
Yeah definitely, at least in TvZ. In the other two matchups not so much and once again I recommend you watch games such as Ty vs Innovation and general Terran streams to see what the other matchups look like. To summarise, mech still isn't really viable in TvP and TvT is all about hellbat drops off of one base.
On February 02 2013 05:44 kollin wrote: I agree with him on the no tank no mech. Building 10 thors and no tanks, quite frankly, isn't mech. It's big beefy slow bio.
I know what you mean, but for me, TvP where you don't research stim is still an improvement from WoL. I see people want this possition tank-based play, I want it too, but that is hard in SC2 and chances are low it's going to change. Still people are doing it and I see them winning..
I really, really recommend checking TheStC's stream. There are few Vods I guess on his twitch profile. He recently started streaming and man, he playes mech all matchups so well. Actually, TvP I can feel something from BW there..
I think that Mech TvT mirrors are going to be a lot more common. The Hellbat really is acting similarly to the Chargelot in WoL to tank for Siege Tanks changing modes because the micro for bio basically cedes all position to Tank/Hellbat, then allowing the Mech player to put Tanks anywhere with ease.
I've also put together this replay pack (http://ge.tt/5bGqDgY) of some games I played going Mech in all matchups. While I am definitely not anywhere near pro level, I think that my builds are going in the right direction for solid Mech macro play (ie not relying on gimmicky mine drops, etc.).
What the heck are you guys doing against zerg lategame? I'll have nearly maxed ups against his low ups on whatever he makes either broodlord/corrupter or pure ultra and I still straight up go and die and I'm so confused as to what on earth I'm supposed to do.
On the bigger maps I actually find zerg much easier to deal with, but stuff like Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak feel really hard to survive the relentless assaults of the ultras and broodlords. Star Station depending on spawn positions seems completely the opposite as if they go broodlords they're so slow I get map dominance and Ultras on that map take a while to actually get into your base.
On February 18 2013 06:24 Qikz wrote: What the heck are you guys doing against zerg lategame? I'll have nearly maxed ups against his low ups on whatever he makes either broodlord/corrupter or pure ultra and I still straight up go and die and I'm so confused as to what on earth I'm supposed to do.
On the bigger maps I actually find zerg much easier to deal with, but stuff like Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak feel really hard to survive the relentless assaults of the ultras and broodlords. Star Station depending on spawn positions seems completely the opposite as if they go broodlords they're so slow I get map dominance and Ultras on that map take a while to actually get into your base.
Sounds like you are having problems dealing with the Zerg's transition?
Blizzard is for some reason afraid to buff Tanks, because they think it would allow Terrans to turtle really hard. That is also, why there are so many siege breaking units and strategies (Tempest, Immortal, Swarm Host, Viper, etc, etc...). They just don't want Terran to be able to sit and play the defensive game. It would make things interesting, because Terran actually has all those defensive tools, it's "defensive" race for a reason. They build their units very slowly and they can't remax and tech switch as other races do. But still, for some reason, Blizzard is afraid to make Terran the defensive race and they think buffing Tank would do so.
On February 18 2013 06:24 Qikz wrote: What the heck are you guys doing against zerg lategame? I'll have nearly maxed ups against his low ups on whatever he makes either broodlord/corrupter or pure ultra and I still straight up go and die and I'm so confused as to what on earth I'm supposed to do.
On the bigger maps I actually find zerg much easier to deal with, but stuff like Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak feel really hard to survive the relentless assaults of the ultras and broodlords. Star Station depending on spawn positions seems completely the opposite as if they go broodlords they're so slow I get map dominance and Ultras on that map take a while to actually get into your base.
Sounds like you are having problems dealing with the Zerg's transition?
It's not so much the transition. It's the bit after when he keeps throwing units upon units at me and I just can't produce fast enough off of 3/4 bases depending on how badly it's been going to counter the constant switching.
That and when they get an obscene amount of corrupters I find it really hard to even get enough vikings to dent the ball. I should probably start looking into just getting ravens for HSM much quicker.
Has anyone else been having success w/ WM-tank in TvP? I position the widow mines right in front of the tanks. The widow mines stop charglots immortals and archons while the tanks blast whatever tries to shoot the widow mines. I add lots of vikings if they air transition. Is this a gimmick that the protosses just don't know how to deal with or have other players been having the same success?
On February 18 2013 06:24 Qikz wrote: What the heck are you guys doing against zerg lategame? I'll have nearly maxed ups against his low ups on whatever he makes either broodlord/corrupter or pure ultra and I still straight up go and die and I'm so confused as to what on earth I'm supposed to do.
On the bigger maps I actually find zerg much easier to deal with, but stuff like Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak feel really hard to survive the relentless assaults of the ultras and broodlords. Star Station depending on spawn positions seems completely the opposite as if they go broodlords they're so slow I get map dominance and Ultras on that map take a while to actually get into your base.
Sounds like you are having problems dealing with the Zerg's transition?
It's not so much the transition. It's the bit after when he keeps throwing units upon units at me and I just can't produce fast enough off of 3/4 bases depending on how badly it's been going to counter the constant switching.
That and when they get an obscene amount of corrupters I find it really hard to even get enough vikings to dent the ball. I should probably start looking into just getting ravens for HSM much quicker.
Perhaps you could try out the high impact missles on the Thors. I am not sure it will work. Just a suggestion. I don't like thors - they are too slow and big for me to handle.
Qikz you definitely need to incorporate ravens quicker, as their sheer supply efficiency alone makes them very worth it. Due to the fact HSM is worth multiple vikings, it allows you to have a much bigger standing ground army.
On February 18 2013 10:34 kollin wrote: Qikz you definitely need to incorporate ravens quicker, as their sheer supply efficiency alone makes them very worth it. Due to the fact HSM is worth multiple vikings, it allows you to have a much bigger standing ground army.
Thanks for the tip. I didn't realise they changed HSM to have splash again. Those dirty zergs and their dirty hive tech are being punished for clumping now. It's almost like irradiate, but you can't eraser it <3
On February 19 2013 23:11 llIH wrote: I think I have gotten worse at Terran from playing Zerg and Protoss for 2 weeks now. Damnit.
What are optimal mech armies vs Archon/HT? Some times they mix in 2-3 colossus too. but I can handle that fine.
Just archon/high templar with some collosus?
I'd personally say tank/hellbat with ghost/viking support deals with that pretty handily as long as you don't stack your tanks and hellbats up. You use the hellbats to soak his storms and soak as much as possible of the archon damage up while you EMP and your tanks kill everything.
Since a lot of people on stream chats seem to be having trouble finding an opening against protoss in TvP mech, I thought I'd throw my opening into the mix. (I was diamond in WoL so not a perfect player, but it should work at any level)
12rax > 13 gas > depot > factory > techlab/depot > 1 tank w/ bunker at ramp (this depends on what you scout, but I always want at least one tank) >CC >>
- If 1 base 2 gas and no third pylon scouted
> Engineering bay and 1 turret at ramp / continue tank production >>*
- If 1 base 2 gas and third pylon
> Scan to see what his tech is > Engineering bay if Stargate or Twilight for turret at mineral line/ramp (for DTs/void rays) >>*
2 more factories before third CC (better to be alive and behind than dead) > double armory
- If nexus first and or 1 gate expand
> starport with widowmines (mine drop at his bases as his detection is delayed) > Third CC > go up to 3 fact > double armory > later engineering bay.
Also going a bit later in the game, if I see he goes for a third early, I'll go up to 5 (/w Starport if Stargate for vikings) or 6 factories (if Robo) get the Hellbat upgrade quickly and push with some turrets (for detection and void rays if hidden) and tanks/hellbats, it should come out at the time 1/1 finishes and although I've not done it since the release, during the Beta it seemed like a very strong push which toss had a very hard time stopping. Once I kill the third nexus I just fall back and take my own third and go in with an advantage to late game.
Hello, is Thor, hellbat, marine and Viking/Raven viable versus protoss? Obviously if he is going mass immortal I cut Thors for Marines & Banshees. Notice tankless composition...
On March 18 2013 10:22 bearhug wrote: HOTS mech is worse than WOL. So hard to win mech TVZ, the longer the game, the harder it becomes to win.
You must hit before vipers are out or go bio, which is the new TvZ meta at this moment. Bio is very mobile and helps mitigate the effects of cloud to a certain extent. As for mech alone, having up to 10 vikings are needed if you want to play against viper, sniping them before they can lay cloud is a must. Even so, i feel that bio is a superior comp against hive tech in nearly every scenario.
Going with heavy mine is key against Vipers.. You could probably go just mine/tank and do well vs hydra/roach/viper.. You cant just mass mech units, move across the map and siege in front of Zergs natural.. Ill upload some replays later if anyone is interested.
I am going join discussion as I have been playing mech exclusively as diamond terran.
In TvP I have been having success with 2 base push with expansion behind it. The push itself consists of hellbats, few tanks , mines, ravens and vikings + whatever is left of early game. I planned this push on the base of denying a third base which it does quite well. A guide for anyone who is interested.
- 11 gas -> 13 rax - 16 OC - Reaper and after 100 gas factory
Reapers job is to scout in the early game so I try not to lose until I know what is going on. You may want to suicide it to scout the base but I prefer it to scout the map.
- After reaper continuous marine production and few mines.
Wall at your ramp is fairly necessary to survive poke with just widow mines and marines.
Of course now my decision making depends on what I scout so if Protoss stays on one base I build engineering bay for turrets and bunkers if some kind of push is coming.
- When factory is on its way add second gas. - When factory is finished build a starport.
When starport is finished I build a tech lab for Ravens but you may want to build viking straight away for possible oracle . - Build CC when you can afford it and set it up when you feel safe to move out to your expansion. -Build depending on what your gas needs are and what you scout mix of ravens and vikings. I usually end up with 2-3 ravens and 2-3 vikings with push timing. - After about 4 marines and raven in production I start building reactor with my barracks for factory. - Start building second factory and add third one when you can. - When reactor is done move one of you factories with it and start building second reactor for your third factory. - Around 8-9 minutes add tech lab to one of your factories and start build at least 2 tanks for the push. - Continuously build hellions and few mines . Around this time you should add your armory for hellbat upgrade. Of course you could build before any hellion production to build hellbats immediately but I like to deny scouting with my mobile hellions and force protoss to build stalkers for mobile hellions. You will have map control too so look for and destroy any possible pylons.
Now depending on situation you will want to move out. The time is usually around 12 - 14 minutes depending early game. The main army should be 2 or more tanks, 2-3 ravens, 2-3 vikings, few mines, lots of hellions and whatever what was left of you marines and perhaps even the reaper. Move out, build a CC and head for protoss third if there is any (scout with you hellions before you move out.) or move to natural. Of course it may be bit risky to attack 2 base protoss, so you shouldn´t be too aggressive and too careful especially if he is ahead or you don´t know the exact composition of protoss force. The main point of this build is to establish a third while denying his third or keeping at least keeping protoss occupied. There is also the situation where you are ahead of protoss. If that is the case, you should be able to at least damage him heavily with this push.
Now on to engagement. Engage quite slowly and set up you tanks in firing range of something whether it be his army or his base. Siege tanks are there to force the engament or to destroy his base. Mines should be positioned on whether or not protoss has air. If there is air don´t let your mines to blow up on anything else than air units with mines and vikings it is fairly easy to crush most air play. Else set them up to get the best mine hits possible. Hellbats are there to buffer the damage and keep your tanks and air units intact. Ravens are perhaps the most integral part of this build and use heavily depends on protoss composition so I am giving list of priorities. First of all make sure your ravens survive always after that:
1. Use 1 PDD to protect you from photon overcharge. 2. Hunter seeker missile void rays or immortals (If both seeker missile whatever is the biggest threath. ) 3. Use more PDDs when needed (Lots of stalkers, phoenixs or last one´s energy ran out.) 4. Turrets to protect you from whatever he has. Ravens usually have energy to do 2 of these things so be curtain that he won´t have surprise immortals/void rays.
This build requires you to have at least the control of to build production facilities, keep building reinforcements while this push happens and start setting up a third or it will turn just an somewhat effective all in so you may not want to do this with too low micro/macro capability.
Reinforcements are quite important too as you can keep getting hellions quite fast with your 3 racks so don´t worry too much about at losing them. The main point of this is to let your pricy units survive ravens , siege tanks and vikings.
Retreating is also good solution if staying becomes too risky usually at that point push has traded you cheap hellions to prevent the third or traded them for other units. You should consider this if there is a risk of you loosing all of your army and there is a possibility to retreat. Also as addition mines make excellent tools for retreat as protoss has to be quite careful to engage them.
On February 18 2013 07:56 Everlong wrote: Blizzard is for some reason afraid to buff Tanks, because they think it would allow Terrans to turtle really hard. That is also, why there are so many siege breaking units and strategies (Tempest, Immortal, Swarm Host, Viper, etc, etc...). They just don't want Terran to be able to sit and play the defensive game. It would make things interesting, because Terran actually has all those defensive tools, it's "defensive" race for a reason. They build their units very slowly and they can't remax and tech switch as other races do. But still, for some reason, Blizzard is afraid to make Terran the defensive race and they think buffing Tank would do so.
They can't buff tanks because of mules. Mules need to go in order for tanks receiving a buff (if both of them are in the game - then turtle mech will be too strong. Bio doesn't have that problem with mules as they do not scale as well as tanks do).
On February 18 2013 07:56 Everlong wrote: Blizzard is for some reason afraid to buff Tanks, because they think it would allow Terrans to turtle really hard. That is also, why there are so many siege breaking units and strategies (Tempest, Immortal, Swarm Host, Viper, etc, etc...). They just don't want Terran to be able to sit and play the defensive game. It would make things interesting, because Terran actually has all those defensive tools, it's "defensive" race for a reason. They build their units very slowly and they can't remax and tech switch as other races do. But still, for some reason, Blizzard is afraid to make Terran the defensive race and they think buffing Tank would do so.
They can't buff tanks because of mules. Mules need to go in order for tanks receiving a buff (if both of them are in the game - then turtle mech will be too strong. Bio doesn't have that problem with mules as they do not scale as well as tanks do).
Why would anyone want to build 5000 Tanks when there are Tempests/Vipers in the game for example? I see that with mass orbitals lategame you can get like 160-170 supply 3/3 mech/air army that is pretty much unbeateable, but I would not say it's because of Tanks. Mules alone make ultra-late game very strong if you go for this 0 SCV 200 army strat..
This may not be the perfect mech build but there is a streamer called Debo (you can search for his videos on twitch) that plays mechish vs Z. He is top 10 in diamond and he more or less always uses this build.
The beauty with his build is that it is so damn simple that even I in the gold leagues have no problem executing it and have no problem vs Z.
So basically he kills Z with a hellion thor push around 150 food.
The build goes roughly like this (again, please look at the videos in his stream and you will find lot of videos showing this build).
Phase one - rax - gas - factory - reactor @rax - switch with factory - tech lab @rax - expand
Produce hellions and marauders which will later be used for harass
Phase two - 2nd gas - armory & ebay for upgrades and turrets - 2 more gas at the expansion - at this point you are done with producing hellions and marauders so switch places with rax and factory. push out with hellions and marauders around 55 supply 9.30 minute mark
Phase three-Here comes the thors - start thor production as soon as armory is done - three more factories with tech labs - get a 3rd cc - another factory and starport
Just produce hellions and thors... push out for the killing blow around 150 food.
And he has some small variations with this where he sometimes brings some mines but basically he kills the zerg at 150+ food with the mighty thor hellion push and it works good in top diamond.
So if you are not looking for a mech build vs Z that needs to work in masters and above this is a fun and easy build. Check his stream out!
I've got some replays of my TvP if you guys want to take a look. There's a loss and 2 wins there I think. I more than I lose against Toss with Tank/Hellbat mech, but some games I play really badly.
The game on Whirlwind is how I deal with Skytoss and I realise my opponents and I'm not great and in the game (especially against iLoveCheese) I kind of threw the game away by being too passive, but you get the general idea behind what I do.
Hopefully if you're in Diamond/below it can help you a bit. ^^ I play quite passive in TvP, but I'm looking into training with someone to get some all ins finalised (6 fact shove works against an early third base/early stargate play but I've got no replays of it).
I've also got a replay of my TvZ against a viper style with pretty much just tanks/mines with vikings mixed in.
thanks for using it^^ I am pretty bored atm and it's fun to play around with pShop a little.
@topic: I just found a replay-pack that goody upped on the esc-pages. I havent been watching the replays yet, but since it's goody-games it should be some high quality metal-scrapping
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
lol why would anybody want to play like avilo anyway, thats the real facepalm
I want to open with reaper fe followed by reactor factory either mines or hellions
I have several questions:
1. If i want to add i starport what is the optimal way and when? like the normal reactor hellion banshee opening in woL? I feel like Hellion Banshee timing throws the most zergs off at the moment because they need to deal with serveral other things.. reaper/mine etc..additionally i like to have banshees in my composition for snipes etc
2. when i go for a relatively fast 3rd base after the 1st factory (cc first into reactor fac fe) should i build first 2 factory and then starport or directly into 3 Fac without Starport?
3. Why everyone go now first one armory and then add the 2nd later?
On March 21 2013 21:34 saaaa wrote: I want to open with reaper fe followed by reactor factory either mines or hellions
I have several questions:
1. If i want to add i starport what is the optimal way and when? like the normal reactor hellion banshee opening in woL? I feel like Hellion Banshee timing throws the most zergs off at the moment because they need to deal with serveral other things.. reaper/mine etc..additionally i like to have banshees in my composition for snipes etc
2. when i go for a relatively fast 3rd base after the 1st factory (cc first into reactor fac fe) should i build first 2 factory and then starport or directly into 3 Fac without Starport?
3. Why everyone go now first one armory and then add the 2nd later?
1. right after your factory doing a 1-1 expo 1
2. I like to go 1 racks 1 factory 1 starport 2 factory 2 armory.
3. I normally drop both at the same time I don't know who you are referring too.
I have a great game for pulling of a strategy that you are describing. here you go!
I've been having some crazy sick games recently where I'm basically dead but somehow hold on long enough to push myself back into a win late game. Mech feels so much more like BW and I'm not sure why, maybe it's because Hellbats allow me to be stronger defensively than i could before? I've found TvZ especially (not on small maps) it's so much stronger to just go around attacking places while his slow army (if they go broodlords) tries to either attack my main or chase me.
Neo Planet S is probably my favourite map mech wise, the main isn't super droppable by Terran, Broodlords are too slow to move around it and TvP there's some really nice 2-2 timings I've found as a lot of Diamond tosses like to take an early third and try and tech straight up as they think I can't attack. Man I love HoTS <3
in WoL i like to go air if i scout early that my terran oponent go for a mech composition. mostly i throw down 3 starports with double upps after my first three factories.
Is this style viable in Hots too?
someone with experience here? How should i transition in Hots with Mine traps and Hellion runbys to transition safely?
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
TvT/TvZ it can be good though.
you should trie tank, mine , instead of battle hellion tank
there also some pretty strong build with double factory into mine tank push
mine are a beast, i always open with mine, they protect you from every stupid rush of any kinda, truly amazing
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
TvT/TvZ it can be good though.
you should trie tank, mine , instead of battle hellion tank
there also some pretty strong build with double factory into mine tank push
mine are a beast, i always open with mine, they protect you from every stupid rush of any kinda, truly amazing
Vs Immortals you'd prefer have a ton of hellbats rather than mines. 20 sieged tanks alone will easily be broken, you'd need a good walloff to be able to survive that. To beat Protoss you need a healthy mix of everything really, 20 tanks alone is bad.
What do you do if you failed to scout swarm hosts? (or best responce in general even - banshees?) I encountered it today while I was lucky enough to scout it imediatly, I made battlecruisiers and ravens lol. But I fear I wont always be so lucky, and they pre ocupy my tanks hardcore in 2v2 (where I encounter them moslty) but of course then my ally can clean them up since im pre occupied / imobile.
On March 27 2013 09:00 ThisisRaider wrote: What do you do if you failed to scout swarm hosts? (or best responce in general even - banshees?) I encountered it today while I was lucky enough to scout it imediatly, I made battlecruisiers and ravens lol. But I fear I wont always be so lucky, and they pre ocupy my tanks hardcore in 2v2 (where I encounter them moslty) but of course then my ally can clean them up since im pre occupied / imobile.
Personally I've found on ladder if the zerg is going into swarmhost they'll do it hardcore. My response is to just keep adding more and more tanks until you can slow push back towards his swarmhosts and either do a bunch of damage to him or even end the game. It's nice to go into ravens while doing this, but I've found it's better to not go into things like banshees unless you're super ahead or not contained on 3 bases as if he's taking the map behind it, it'll be really hard for him to not get some kind of AA with his hosts/contain.
If you can try and get hellions out all over the place to try and force something other than swarmhosts to be made and any drone kills can be crucial. If you're going tank heavy like I suggest you also need to make sure to definately add ravens/vikings or you can just straight up die to a broodlord switch so with your scans and hellions you need to make sure you're always keeping an eye on what he's building.
I'd say one of the biggest things is to not panic. I know that sounds really stupid, but when I first started facing swarmhosts I went into overdrive to try and defend them with air or dropping on them or other things, but you can't see them as a threat as mech, you just need to see them as an irritant that can be taken out with your good old Arklight Shock Cannons from afar and just try to do everything around them. Unless they're a crazy good player or it's a really bad map (see Daybreak being so narrow) they're going to find it really hard to super contain you so as long as you can make sure you have enough tanks (atleast) to keep defending his waves while taking no damage, then you're fine to start going with drops and other cool things to damage his stuff. Do what they do to us and punish their mobility, mech drops as long as you drop the tanks in a nice position with hellbats are pretty damned effective, especially if you block ramps with the hellbats.
Another thing is if you feel like you're getting overwhelmed quite early, a nice tactic I've learnt (might not work at higher levels (I'm like low masters I'd say atm)) is to get a command center infront of your tanks and make a planetary and sit with a few SCVs repairing to buffer a bit.
On March 27 2013 09:00 ThisisRaider wrote: What do you do if you failed to scout swarm hosts? (or best responce in general even - banshees?) I encountered it today while I was lucky enough to scout it imediatly, I made battlecruisiers and ravens lol. But I fear I wont always be so lucky, and they pre ocupy my tanks hardcore in 2v2 (where I encounter them moslty) but of course then my ally can clean them up since im pre occupied / imobile.
My answer is tanks/hellbats/ravens : Use tanks and hellbats to handle locusts, and get some SM into the SH group. A few banshees also helps, but the main key is to have enough tanks to kill all locusts without taking damage
What are SM and SH groups? I can kill the locusts but its hard and sloooow to move forward lol.
Since this is the Terran mech resources thread, can anyone tell me when to add more factories, I have been playing around a LITTLE bit but it doesnt feel smooth. Just in a nutshell, how do I know when to add more factories? I know it sounds stupid - 'just add more factories when your floating gas ' - but betweeb double armories / ravens / tanks / mines. I feel like thats way to / I never float on 2 base. I cant stay on one reactor one techlab for that long but I do. Weird question but im sure someone can answer it, thanks.
Nevermind - Im being dumb. I should first get my production up before my upgrades. I am seriously this dumb at times.
On 2 base you really cannot support more than 3 factories, maybe 4 if you are going for an all in. Once you get the third, I think 5-6 factories (5 in general, but I've been experimenting with several reactors and then a 6th can be pretty cool too) will do nicely until you've taken a 4th.
You can, however, easily take a third from 2 factories in most matchups.
On March 27 2013 12:13 ThisisRaider wrote: What are SM and SH groups? I can kill the locusts but its hard and sloooow to move forward lol.
Since this is the Terran mech resources thread, can anyone tell me when to add more factories, I have been playing around a LITTLE bit but it doesnt feel smooth. Just in a nutshell, how do I know when to add more factories? I know it sounds stupid - 'just add more factories when your floating gas ' - but betweeb double armories / ravens / tanks / mines. I feel like thats way to / I never float on 2 base. I cant stay on one reactor one techlab for that long but I do. Weird question but im sure someone can answer it, thanks.
Nevermind - Im being dumb. I should first get my production up before my upgrades. I am seriously this dumb at times.
Ideally, you want to open some kind of 1/1/1 (I like to do reactor hellion/mine expand depending on matchup/map/scouting) with expo somewhere in there. Then add 2 more factories when your 3/4th gases are secured and then add 2 armories. Then throw down 3rd CC. This will get you to 200/200 with 2/2 upgrades in like 15/16 minutes most of the time, if you don't supply block yourself or forget production cycle.
This is my general gameplan, it works well in all matchups. Of course there are slight variations depending on what you see (like skipping starport or 2nd armory, or skipping 3rd and go for 2base push, etc...), but you can stick to something like that if you want to keep your resources low and have this flowing feel.
the problem with FE--->mine--->expand it's that if you don't have at least one tank, against toss you are screwed, because they will arrive with one oracle(at around 7 mark) e reveal your mine and kill them with stalker; at least one tank it's needed
On March 27 2013 20:22 Garmer wrote: the problem with FE--->mine--->expand it's that if you don't have at least one tank, against toss you are screwed, because they will arrive with one oracle(at around 7 mark) e reveal your mine and kill them with stalker; at least one tank it's needed
Yes, if I feel something like this is comming, I skip my starport and get 2nd factory and get like 1-2 tanks to be safe. But then you need ebay + turret at natural in case of Dts. But most of the time you can get some good scouting info with hellions poking around.
edit: you can still go for 1/1/1 and swap reactor for techlab from your Starport after getting Raven and get 1 Tank.. Anyways, you should have your mines behind your bunker to prevent Stalkers from sniping them.
What do widow mines and ravens HSM's do to immortal shields? Just curious, I tried looking in my replays but, too much pew pew to be sure what did what. xD
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
TvT/TvZ it can be good though.
you should trie tank, mine , instead of battle hellion tank
there also some pretty strong build with double factory into mine tank push
mine are a beast, i always open with mine, they protect you from every stupid rush of any kinda, truly amazing
Vs Immortals you'd prefer have a ton of hellbats rather than mines. 20 sieged tanks alone will easily be broken, you'd need a good walloff to be able to survive that. To beat Protoss you need a healthy mix of everything really, 20 tanks alone is bad.
i think mine are better hellebat and mine have basically the same cost, but a mines can do 160 damage(plus splash) vs protoss before dying, a hellbat can never do that, also the two range is bad vs everything but zealot another think that i want, is to build a composition of 2-3 units for the entire game, not adding every units at terran disposal, i don't find it funny...i want to play like in BW with only 2-3 units and master them perfectly
On March 28 2013 18:17 ThisisRaider wrote: What do widow mines and ravens HSM's do to immortal shields? Just curious, I tried looking in my replays but, too much pew pew to be sure what did what. xD
they treat it as a normal shield, so no reduction to 10
i think that mines become really strong, with Drilling upgrade, that upgrade it's so important that u need it asap
Ideally, you want to open some kind of 1/1/1 (I like to do reactor hellion/mine expand depending on matchup/map/scouting) with expo somewhere in there. Then add 2 more factories when your 3/4th gases are secured and then add 2 armories. Then throw down 3rd CC. This will get you to 200/200 with 2/2 upgrades in like 15/16 minutes most of the time, if you don't supply block yourself or forget production cycle.
This is pretty much my opening but rather than reactor mines or hellions I always open siege expand to be super safe. I also delay my starport quite a bit, but it's the same general idea.
I go barracks > factory > techlab > cc > tank/bunker (if against toss) > another tank or a mine depending on what I've scouted), get nat gas instantly and go up to 3 factories > 2 armories constant upgrades > 3rd CC. I only really add a starport on 2 base if it's TvT where I 1/1/1 or in TvP if I scout stargate play or collosus.
I generally go for a much later third, because I like to feel safe and I really don't feel early on that you need the gas income off of three base, let alone the mineral income to even max out if you need to. If I get contained on 2 base I just go around dropping with tanks/hellions as I know sure as hell my base is safe.
My composition in TvP is entirely tanks and hellbats. I add thors if he goes stargate and vikings, but it's mainly always tank/hellbat and until the toss gets to like 5 bases or so, usually if you 2/2 timing push your tank hellbat army can pretty much destroy whatever the hell they're building if they're not going air to reset them back to 2 bases or even just outright win the game depending on the map. You should be maxing up off of 2 base with 2/2 at 200/200 (just about) and I push out and expand to my third behind it (get my CC quickly though).
Thats awesome, I never use mines TvP besides the early game. Also if they spam immortals I usually get ghosts.
Thinking about it, Ghosts are still better than ravens vs immortal zlot archon and ht.
EMP and HSM damage is the same ( I dont know the radius of the AOE ) But HSM's have a long delay and the units affected can be pulled back in smaller numbers. EMP lands next to instantly and they can drain energy / snipe if needed. (when they dont clump the HT's together) Ghosts can cloack / nuke / still do decent damage to zealots.
Then again Raven has the PDD against blink stalkers, detection against DT's and when your mech, your thors often kill they observers. Also Raven can move back after casting where ghosts usually end up dead. Ravens can also harras with turrets / HSM's on workers and wall off stuff with turrets.
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
TvT/TvZ it can be good though.
you should trie tank, mine , instead of battle hellion tank
there also some pretty strong build with double factory into mine tank push
mine are a beast, i always open with mine, they protect you from every stupid rush of any kinda, truly amazing
Vs Immortals you'd prefer have a ton of hellbats rather than mines. 20 sieged tanks alone will easily be broken, you'd need a good walloff to be able to survive that. To beat Protoss you need a healthy mix of everything really, 20 tanks alone is bad.
i think mine are better hellebat and mine have basically the same cost, but a mines can do 160 damage(plus splash) vs protoss before dying, a hellbat can never do that, also the two range is bad vs everything but zealot another think that i want, is to build a composition of 2-3 units for the entire game, not adding every units at terran disposal, i don't find it funny...i want to play like in BW with only 2-3 units and master them perfectly
On March 28 2013 18:17 ThisisRaider wrote: What do widow mines and ravens HSM's do to immortal shields? Just curious, I tried looking in my replays but, too much pew pew to be sure what did what. xD
they treat it as a normal shield, so no reduction to 10
i think that mines become really strong, with Drilling upgrade, that upgrade it's so important that u need it asap
Been having huge success with hellbat + medivac vs pretty much any immortal based army. My experience with widowmines is that they grow less and less useful the later in the game it becomes. Storms and Colossus do counter them fairly well.
Dragon doesn't mech that often. Why is he on the list? Even if he does mech occasionally linking his twitch.tv will just frustrate players as they look through the video archives to actually find a mech game.
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
TvT/TvZ it can be good though.
you should trie tank, mine , instead of battle hellion tank
there also some pretty strong build with double factory into mine tank push
mine are a beast, i always open with mine, they protect you from every stupid rush of any kinda, truly amazing
Vs Immortals you'd prefer have a ton of hellbats rather than mines. 20 sieged tanks alone will easily be broken, you'd need a good walloff to be able to survive that. To beat Protoss you need a healthy mix of everything really, 20 tanks alone is bad.
i think mine are better hellebat and mine have basically the same cost, but a mines can do 160 damage(plus splash) vs protoss before dying, a hellbat can never do that, also the two range is bad vs everything but zealot another think that i want, is to build a composition of 2-3 units for the entire game, not adding every units at terran disposal, i don't find it funny...i want to play like in BW with only 2-3 units and master them perfectly
On March 28 2013 18:17 ThisisRaider wrote: What do widow mines and ravens HSM's do to immortal shields? Just curious, I tried looking in my replays but, too much pew pew to be sure what did what. xD
they treat it as a normal shield, so no reduction to 10
i think that mines become really strong, with Drilling upgrade, that upgrade it's so important that u need it asap
Been having huge success with hellbat + medivac vs pretty much any immortal based army. My experience with widowmines is that they grow less and less useful the later in the game it becomes. Storms and Colossus do counter them fairly well.
your are correct, after having tried it properly, i can say that hellbat are better, but without ghost it's still almost impossibile to beat a good toss with mass immortal(they are the real problem of mech, now that zealot have a counter)
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
TvT/TvZ it can be good though.
you should trie tank, mine , instead of battle hellion tank
there also some pretty strong build with double factory into mine tank push
mine are a beast, i always open with mine, they protect you from every stupid rush of any kinda, truly amazing
Vs Immortals you'd prefer have a ton of hellbats rather than mines. 20 sieged tanks alone will easily be broken, you'd need a good walloff to be able to survive that. To beat Protoss you need a healthy mix of everything really, 20 tanks alone is bad.
i think mine are better hellebat and mine have basically the same cost, but a mines can do 160 damage(plus splash) vs protoss before dying, a hellbat can never do that, also the two range is bad vs everything but zealot another think that i want, is to build a composition of 2-3 units for the entire game, not adding every units at terran disposal, i don't find it funny...i want to play like in BW with only 2-3 units and master them perfectly
On March 28 2013 18:17 ThisisRaider wrote: What do widow mines and ravens HSM's do to immortal shields? Just curious, I tried looking in my replays but, too much pew pew to be sure what did what. xD
they treat it as a normal shield, so no reduction to 10
i think that mines become really strong, with Drilling upgrade, that upgrade it's so important that u need it asap
Been having huge success with hellbat + medivac vs pretty much any immortal based army. My experience with widowmines is that they grow less and less useful the later in the game it becomes. Storms and Colossus do counter them fairly well.
your are correct, after having tried it properly, i can say that hellbat are better, but without ghost it's still almost impossibile to beat a good toss with mass immortal(they are the real problem of mech, now that zealot have a counter)
You'd be surprised how good tank/hellbat is against mass immortal as long as you've got enough hellbats to keep them away from your tanks for ages.
Then again if they're going mass immortal you should easily be getting ghosts anyway, there's no reason not to get ghosts against protoss imo, get 'em on 3 bases.
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
TvT/TvZ it can be good though.
you should trie tank, mine , instead of battle hellion tank
there also some pretty strong build with double factory into mine tank push
mine are a beast, i always open with mine, they protect you from every stupid rush of any kinda, truly amazing
Vs Immortals you'd prefer have a ton of hellbats rather than mines. 20 sieged tanks alone will easily be broken, you'd need a good walloff to be able to survive that. To beat Protoss you need a healthy mix of everything really, 20 tanks alone is bad.
i think mine are better hellebat and mine have basically the same cost, but a mines can do 160 damage(plus splash) vs protoss before dying, a hellbat can never do that, also the two range is bad vs everything but zealot another think that i want, is to build a composition of 2-3 units for the entire game, not adding every units at terran disposal, i don't find it funny...i want to play like in BW with only 2-3 units and master them perfectly
On March 28 2013 18:17 ThisisRaider wrote: What do widow mines and ravens HSM's do to immortal shields? Just curious, I tried looking in my replays but, too much pew pew to be sure what did what. xD
they treat it as a normal shield, so no reduction to 10
i think that mines become really strong, with Drilling upgrade, that upgrade it's so important that u need it asap
Been having huge success with hellbat + medivac vs pretty much any immortal based army. My experience with widowmines is that they grow less and less useful the later in the game it becomes. Storms and Colossus do counter them fairly well.
your are correct, after having tried it properly, i can say that hellbat are better, but without ghost it's still almost impossibile to beat a good toss with mass immortal(they are the real problem of mech, now that zealot have a counter)
You'd be surprised how good tank/hellbat is against mass immortal as long as you've got enough hellbats to keep them away from your tanks for ages.
Then again if they're going mass immortal you should easily be getting ghosts anyway, there's no reason not to get ghosts against protoss imo, get 'em on 3 bases.
Banshees work well too, but yeah, a fair amount of tanks/thors with a BUTTLOAD of hellbats in front sure get the job done most of the time. I play rather aggressive so not sure I've ever met someone who manages to get 10+ immortals.
Byong went mech against Stork in todays Special matches. He lost due to bad upgrades and a carrier switch from Stork (yay!), but he still could have won with the proper upgrades/reactions.
On March 31 2013 18:26 Clazziquai10 wrote: Actually I LOVE to mech in TvZ; I very rarely go bio in that matchup :D
But with that being said, I'm quite lost with regard to how to mech properly in TvT. I would love to try out some builds and learn though.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405574 This build was used the other day in the GSTL to great effect, and it's very strong at the moment. Can lead into a good mech game by just expanding and throwing down a couple more factories; you already have an armory as well.
On March 31 2013 18:26 Clazziquai10 wrote: Actually I LOVE to mech in TvZ; I very rarely go bio in that matchup :D
But with that being said, I'm quite lost with regard to how to mech properly in TvT. I would love to try out some builds and learn though.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405574 This build was used the other day in the GSTL to great effect, and it's very strong at the moment. Can lead into a good mech game by just expanding and throwing down a couple more factories; you already have an armory as well.
You can also do a gas first marine mine drop, into delayed cloak banshees. This is strong because it is extremely safe and has the potential to end the game immediately. Your opponent is forced to use scans on the mines, and therefore will not have scans to use for the banshees.
On March 31 2013 18:26 Clazziquai10 wrote: Actually I LOVE to mech in TvZ; I very rarely go bio in that matchup :D
But with that being said, I'm quite lost with regard to how to mech properly in TvT. I would love to try out some builds and learn though.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405574 This build was used the other day in the GSTL to great effect, and it's very strong at the moment. Can lead into a good mech game by just expanding and throwing down a couple more factories; you already have an armory as well.
You can also do a gas first marine mine drop, into delayed cloak banshees. This is strong because it is extremely safe and has the potential to end the game immediately. Your opponent is forced to use scans on the mines, and therefore will not have scans to use for the banshees.
That sounds really cool :D Plus from the 1/1/1 you can transition into almost anything. The only problem I can see is if you do no damage you are behind, but I think you'd have to mess up really bad to do no damage. Also an oracle might cause problems, especially if it comes right after your medivac and marines leave your base, but a fast oracle is a problem for most builds . Thanks Kollin
On March 31 2013 18:26 Clazziquai10 wrote: Actually I LOVE to mech in TvZ; I very rarely go bio in that matchup :D
But with that being said, I'm quite lost with regard to how to mech properly in TvT. I would love to try out some builds and learn though.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405574 This build was used the other day in the GSTL to great effect, and it's very strong at the moment. Can lead into a good mech game by just expanding and throwing down a couple more factories; you already have an armory as well.
You can also do a gas first marine mine drop, into delayed cloak banshees. This is strong because it is extremely safe and has the potential to end the game immediately. Your opponent is forced to use scans on the mines, and therefore will not have scans to use for the banshees.
That sounds really cool :D Plus from the 1/1/1 you can transition into almost anything. The only problem I can see is if you do no damage you are behind, but I think you'd have to mess up really bad to do no damage. Also an oracle might cause problems, especially if it comes right after your medivac and marines leave your base, but a fast oracle is a problem for most builds . Thanks Kollin
I wouldn't necessarily recommend this build in TvP (though I don't see why it couldn't be effective), but in TvT a lot of players are doing variants of it in the GSTL.
I've been experimenting vP for ages, and I just scan his army occasionally and mix in either ghosts, Ravens or Thors if I need em and its working really well :D Thanks HTOMario :D
On March 31 2013 18:26 Clazziquai10 wrote: Actually I LOVE to mech in TvZ; I very rarely go bio in that matchup :D
But with that being said, I'm quite lost with regard to how to mech properly in TvT. I would love to try out some builds and learn though.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405574 This build was used the other day in the GSTL to great effect, and it's very strong at the moment. Can lead into a good mech game by just expanding and throwing down a couple more factories; you already have an armory as well.
You can also do a gas first marine mine drop, into delayed cloak banshees. This is strong because it is extremely safe and has the potential to end the game immediately. Your opponent is forced to use scans on the mines, and therefore will not have scans to use for the banshees.
Any gasfirst build is nono atm due to how common reapers are :/
is it now the standard to go for 4 factories of 2 bases instead of 3 like it was in WoL the case.
I always fload minerals after i grab my 3rd base. The same question about the total amount of factories.
Should i build 2 more to a total of 6 Factories even with double upgrades and the gameplan to transition into heavy sky with first raven/viking and later bc's?
And can i build my 2 additional CC's (total of 5) at the 14 Minute mark like in Wol as well when i go for 4 factories?
I'm kind of lost because my spending skill was Master in TvZ in WoL and in Hots only Plat/Diamond.
Really looking forward to Flash playing in Code S this season. I bet we will see some nice mech plays, if he dares to do so! :D Especially with a banshee opening after CC first. Love that build.
So Appolo did an interview with David Kim and they talk a little about mech. All this talk of "we don't know if we want mech to be as good as bio" makes me think there might be some internal debate between the devs. Someone there REALLY hates the Siege Tank and the defensive positional play i think.
On April 09 2013 22:55 saaaa wrote: is it now the standard to go for 4 factories of 2 bases instead of 3 like it was in WoL the case.
I always fload minerals after i grab my 3rd base. The same question about the total amount of factories.
Should i build 2 more to a total of 6 Factories even with double upgrades and the gameplan to transition into heavy sky with first raven/viking and later bc's?
And can i build my 2 additional CC's (total of 5) at the 14 Minute mark like in Wol as well when i go for 4 factories?
I'm kind of lost because my spending skill was Master in TvZ in WoL and in Hots only Plat/Diamond.
i found that with two base , it's good to go with 4 fact instead of 3, 2 reactor and 2 tech lab, then with 3 base, make them six(the other two with 2 tech lab), and make more cc
i stream master level mech play at twitch.tv/bootybothered.
TvZ i do a hellbat timing aimed to deny the zergs 3rd while i go full mech on 3 bases behind that
TvP i go 1 rax expand into a 4 widow mine drop while going 2 base full mech behind it. i deny the toss's 3rd while taking mine. ghosts are extremely important if the game.goes to 3base vs 3base and sometimes i have transition into mass air and thors if the toss goes mass air to deal with mech.
TvT. full mech with agressive hellbat drops
i can upload replays / post builds if anyones interested
On April 11 2013 03:10 Sapphire.lux wrote: So Appolo did an interview with David Kim and they talk a little about mech. All this talk of "we don't know if we want mech to be as good as bio" makes me think there might be some internal debate between the devs. Someone there REALLY hates the Siege Tank and the defensive positional play i think.
Yes, listening to that interview at those parts was cringe worthy and basically a slap in the face to a lot of Terrans. They basically gave up or have something against mech tvp being possible which is quite lulzworthy.
The problem is, their faulty logic. Instead of making the siege tank not suck in TvP, they scapegoat the entire situation claiming "they don't want stale defensive turtle play." Now, the problem here is if they had actually worked on making mech TvP viable, a widow mine that didn't cost supply but was proportionally weaker, a siege tank that didn't get shit on by literally every Protoss unit...etc. then this "turtle stagnant defensive play" that they're so afraid of wouldn't come to pass because it would actually allow Terrans using mech in TvP to ATTACK protoss.
The way it is right now, because of their development mindset, they are not doing jack shiot with mech TvP, and in it's current state it's very difficult to "attack" and have high paced games with mech TvP because the tank is so terrible you're essentially forced to turtle to 5 bases into a super "death ball" army.
If the tank didn't suck so much and was not so hard countered...and if it actually mattered that it was up a ramp or in position...you would see much more high paced mech TvP because Terrans could commit tanks to different locations on the map.
As is, you are currently forced to maintain ONE DEATHBALL because you 100% cannot split up siege tanks to different spots on the map, that's almost autoloss.
It's a catch-22, they are afraid of the turtle deathball stagnant mech style, but then they literally stop development and don't give mech TvPers a siege tank that can actually hold any spots on the map or be effective vs Protoss until you have that deathball established.
This is to everybody out there, if "the iloveoov build" doesn't ring a bell, you can see the liquipedia page on it right here.
Personally, I love trying to recreate a BW style in starcraft 2 whenever possible, especially when it comes to using mech in TvP.
If the liquipedia page isn't immediately clear and you're unfamiliar with BW, the iloveoov style can be best summarized today as using Vultures(Hellions) and Spider Mines(Widow Mines) for aggressive harassment, including an early starport for drop potential, to buy time to expand to a fast 3 bases. Obviously, adapting a BW style to a starcraft 2 game has to consider the differences between games, so I created a general outline for how it works in starcraft 2:
1. Fast reactor factory 2. Construction of natural expand CC ASAP after the first 150 to 200 gas is harvested 3. Hellion, Widow Mines and Starport are used very aggressively to restrict protoss and give time for Terran to macro up.
I've made my own attempts at executing an "iloveoov build style to TvP mech" and I've liked the results compared to any other attempt at using mech in TvP! The execution is exactly as you should think.
1. To have a reactor factory ready as quickly as possible without cutting SCV production, you would start gas at 11 food, delay construction of the barracks, and skip marines entirely. Once the barracks finishes, there should be 150 gas to start construction of a reactor and a factory. SCFusion supports this if you're looking for getting out widow mines and hellions and expand ASAP. 2. You should move SCVs from gas to minerals to start the first CC. 3. Facing widow mines without detection is very intimidating. Facing Hellion runby if they move out is also intimidating. It's possible to kill stalker pushes before they ever make it across the map with a couple mine shots and using the reduced stalker count and AoE damage from Hellions and Widow Mines alone.
Quick Q/A
Protoss is likely to start 1 gate core robo anyway, how would this reliance on widow mines work with detection so early?
Originally I assumed that getting siege tanks would be the sensible reaction once protoss gets detection. This meant getting additional factories sooner rather than a starport. It quickly resulted in being busted with immortals and detection by 3 gate robo every single game since that's essentially exactly the sort of response aggressive widow mines and hellions should trigger. In addition, forced to turtle on two bases is a defeat in itself- the build wants to accomplish 3 bases quickly.
When I continued to use the starport, however, I found things worked better. Widow mine and Hellion drops into the main while re-mining up the Protoss exit from his natural would delay any protoss push longer as they moved their detection and units back in response. Viking and scans could snipe Observers, keeping the Robotics Bay busy building more Observers than Immortals, and delaying a Protoss push.
What about Proxy Pylon 4 gate, Oracles, DTs, Warp Prisms, Void Ray, Phoenix and more?
The iloveoov build anything from starcraft: brood war is the origin of the 1/1/1(iloveoov also helped Fantasy make the TvZ version of the 1/1/1 aka the Fantasy Build). This means it enjoys the same flexibility that 1/1/1 is known for. In a practical sense, this build keeps you well informed on Protoss unit composition and tech- the map is open for Terran to spot hidden pylons, warp prisms, or protoss air- an engineering bay, turrets, and a handful of widow mines can be enormously cost effective against any air or DTs. Vikings are a very easy to use deterrent to warp prisms, Hellions can move very quickly in response to Zealots, well positioned Siege Tanks and mines can ruin Blink Stalkers.
Doesn't mech still suck?
It kinda does. I've been rolled enough times by enough different combinations of protoss units to almost give up. But I've been rolled with bio too. It makes me think it isn't Mech that's any weaker to the Protoss deathball than Bio. I think Bio has been more successful because it's been easier to establish an aggressive pacing to out-macro the Protoss deathball when using bio.
On April 12 2013 03:18 avilo wrote:in its current state it's very difficult to "attack" and have high paced games with mech TvP.
Sup! Maybe with an "iloveoov build style" approach to mech, Terran can still establish an aggressive pacing to out-macro Protoss, even though they're using mech.
think the most difficult thing in tvp mech now is to find an optimal opening and then figure out how much stuff to build etc, i see too many people lose because their mass tank army gets obliterated by immortals. strelok and bunny showed some interesting builds in wcs eu althought im not so sure how they deal with really strong early agression.
On April 17 2013 22:04 PredY wrote: think the most difficult thing in tvp mech now is to find an optimal opening and then figure out how much stuff to build etc, i see too many people lose because their mass tank army gets obliterated by immortals. strelok and bunny showed some interesting builds in wcs eu althought im not so sure how they deal with really strong early agression.
Yes, that is the most difficult part for sure. I've been exclusively mech TvP again, and i know others are still attempting it as well.
What i've found is a reaper into 111 with any type of medivac into cloak banshee is one of the best mech openers because you have a way to pressure Protoss's probe count and still defend all-ins with reaper/scv scouting.
Also, many, many hellbat drops are a key to getting mech TvP to work, but that is something most of us already knew - mech TvP relies on killing a lot of workers through hellion harrass/banshee harrass otherwise Protoss can do whatever they want.
I saw a bunch of the posted bunny/strelok/krass games...pretty good mech TvPs but in a bunch of those it looked like the Protosses were all 1 gate expanding for the most part, very few all-ins. In particular I saw strelok do a 15 CC into 1 rax and then 1 refinery...literally any all-in from Protoss kills this...but if the game goes on past this point then through harrass mech TvP is looking a bit better lately.
Most elite Protoss vs mech players will abuse DTs, warp prisms, immortals and stargate tech + all-ins as openers that end up not being all-in because of doing massive damage. Didn't really see a lot of P abuse in those WCS EU games, a lot could have to do with mech being so rarely seen that the protosses didn't react as efficiently as they could.
The game that comes to mind that I saw was strelok vs finale on newkirk. Finale adjusted from the first game and began immortal production much sooner in this game instead of building so many collosus. And strelok actually had a huge lead and at one point i saw almost 170 supply mech Terran get crushed by like a 120 supply Protoss (lol).
I do think ghosts are necessary with mech, they were in wings of liberty, but the optimal timing of when to start such things is not so mapped out yet, even for really experienced mech tvp users.
haha totally remember the second game of strelok vs finale, thought that was really good "counter" build from the P, otherwise agree completely - gotta try the cloak banshee (althought a lot of EU P like to go stargate). I personally like to get aggresive early with hellions and get blueflame + transformation asap, which means i can be agressive early on with mass hellion and then use them to defend any pushes. still haven't really put too much effort into mech yet
On April 17 2013 22:04 PredY wrote: think the most difficult thing in tvp mech now is to find an optimal opening and then figure out how much stuff to build etc, i see too many people lose because their mass tank army gets obliterated by immortals. strelok and bunny showed some interesting builds in wcs eu althought im not so sure how they deal with really strong early agression.
Yes, that is the most difficult part for sure. I've been exclusively mech TvP again, and i know others are still attempting it as well.
What i've found is a reaper into 111 with any type of medivac into cloak banshee is one of the best mech openers because you have a way to pressure Protoss's probe count and still defend all-ins with reaper/scv scouting.
Also, many, many hellbat drops are a key to getting mech TvP to work, but that is something most of us already knew - mech TvP relies on killing a lot of workers through hellion harrass/banshee harrass otherwise Protoss can do whatever they want.
I saw a bunch of the posted bunny/strelok/krass games...pretty good mech TvPs but in a bunch of those it looked like the Protosses were all 1 gate expanding for the most part, very few all-ins. In particular I saw strelok do a 15 CC into 1 rax and then 1 refinery...literally any all-in from Protoss kills this...but if the game goes on past this point then through harrass mech TvP is looking a bit better lately.
Most elite Protoss vs mech players will abuse DTs, warp prisms, immortals and stargate tech + all-ins as openers that end up not being all-in because of doing massive damage. Didn't really see a lot of P abuse in those WCS EU games, a lot could have to do with mech being so rarely seen that the protosses didn't react as efficiently as they could.
The game that comes to mind that I saw was strelok vs finale on newkirk. Finale adjusted from the first game and began immortal production much sooner in this game instead of building so many collosus. And strelok actually had a huge lead and at one point i saw almost 170 supply mech Terran get crushed by like a 120 supply Protoss (lol).
I do think ghosts are necessary with mech, they were in wings of liberty, but the optimal timing of when to start such things is not so mapped out yet, even for really experienced mech tvp users.
This matches my experience as well. Mech in TvP "works" mainly because of two factors:
massive economic advantage, obtainable through:
greed, for instance metagaming a passive MSC expand with CC rax gas, or teching Hellbats drops behind one Bunker and a couple of Mines, etc.;
killing mass Probes with harass, e. g. Hellbats drops, BFH raids, etc.;
or both.
Protoss players failing to adapt and having really poor answers:
many of them are unwilling to unplug the anti bio play autopilot;
or they react too late to mech play;
or they resort to hackneyed tactics such as massing 10+ Immortals on dual robotics, etc.
Which, of course, means mech technically does not work, because defending Probes only comes down to having 2+ Cannons per mineral line to shut down all forms of mech mild harass, and thinking a bit to find various ways to exploit mech's numerous weaknesses is quite simple.
Just like in WoL, the best way to play mech in TvP—outside of not playing it—is probably ghostmech, but then the amount of units (with many of them being gas-intensive, and naturally slow to produce) required to deal with Protoss armies quickly becomes ridiculous... If Protoss incorporates Stargate units you end up with Ghosts/Hellbats/Mines/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens, and the mere enunciation of such a unit composition says everything (and even with all of that you're not even guaranteed good trades...).
I find mech to be very viable on small maps and tight windows (for max AoE) where I can easily secure a third. That's where you can turtle up a bit. Immortals really can't bust you early if you have a couple of bunkers and mines, with tanks well out of initial range. It's also built on harass to get ahead early and secure the third base. I have yet to see a toss consistently deal with marine/helion/widow mine. Then you transition to HTOMario style with all of the above. The three base build consists of:
3 reactored factory: 300/100 per minute for window mines, 800 for hellbats 2 factory tech: Tanks or Thors or both... ~450/184 per minute Rax: Constant Ghosts: 300/150 a minute Tech Starport: Raven/Viking/Medivac (reactionary)
You can cut a Teched factory for an additional reactored starport for air toss. You should still be fine as he will be light on stalkers and immortal if that's the case. It's not mech in the BW sense, but it is effective. But on the large maps where the protoss is in a cross position and can consistently re-max, it proves too daunting and I'd favor bio in these instances. You simply cannot anticipate what the protoss player is re-maxing with to create a balanced mech composition.
i just watched through 6 sets of Clanwar-Replays from the ATC and found 4 pretty nice mechgames. These include 3 TvT's and one TvZ. Since the op-spoilers are pretty empty, maybe kollin can add these replays there
Really nice showcasing of this build since both open exactly the same. The build starts to differ, when ForGG opts for Vikings where LucifroN gets an ebay and turrets up - leaving him with more Gas and though a higher tankcount. (LucifroN plays this build also vs Quantic Apocalypse).
build (since its really solid and popular atm i wrote it down)
10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas 15OC get 2 Rines 18 Fax -> Reactor on Rax 20 CC get 2 Hellions followed by 2 Widow Mines ~32 get Starport and Armory constant mechattack-upgrades Start 3rd at ~8:45 inbase prepare some dropdefense (ebay/turrets or vikings) add 4 fax pump tons of tanks/hellbats + some vikings from 3 techlabs/ 2 reactors
This build is for sure one of the most all-inny 1base-plays a terran can pull off atm. Lucifron gets 2 Vacs and 4 Hellbats out at 6:45 ready for take-off. In addition he can instantly start the 2nd round and has +1 attack on the way.(in comparison to the standard fast hellbat-drops its 15 secs earlier and has the upgrade on the Way)
Keep in mind, that this build keeps you without any defense vs early aggression since its going gas first and only gets out a single marine^^
build (for those who are interested in total coinflips)
10 Depot 12 Gas 13 Rax 16 OC 17 Factory 17 2nd Gas -> send the rax to scout 19 Starport 20 Armory build Reactors on the Factory and the Starport immediately get +1 attack as soon as armory finishes go with 2 vacs and 4 hellbats at 6:45 get the 2nd drop
TvZ:
Gasless expand into Hellbat-Drops LucifroN vs HyuN
And again an expand-opening showcased by LucifroN. This time going to roast tons of drones. he applies pressure throughout the whole game and is goind for a Thor/Hellbat-Style. Since the opening is not that exciting i didnt feel to write it down. just gets 4 marines and bunker goes into reactor, adds factories and a starport and an armory.
so far meepz
ps: i really hope mech gets a little bit more popular in the future. but atm i can only find hellbat-drops into mech.
Thanks a ton, I apologise for not updating the op it's just now that I'm a writer I have far less free time on my hands to make notes of interesting mech games
On April 20 2013 22:31 saaaa wrote: i will publish my "all mech matches" exel file soon.. like in WoL
What do you prefer against a Roach/Hydra/Viper Army?
Should i play Tank+Hellbat+Viking/Raven or Pure Tank+Viking/Raven or should i build mines instead of hellbats?
I prefer the easiest way. I prefer starting aggression early enough in TvZ to deny zerg the macro to support mass roach/hydra. That means I use bio. But tank-hellbat-viking should be the strongest if you want to use mech.
Strelok was planning to play mech TvP against Puzzle but he got owned pretty hard, Puzzle was being very aggressive play against him. Strelok also has an amazing mech TvZ against Yugioh, and ost of luci games are mech, check it out
On April 28 2013 17:42 Porishan wrote: Strelok was planning to play mech TvP against Puzzle but he got owned pretty hard, Puzzle was being very aggressive play against him. Strelok also has an amazing mech TvZ against Yugioh, and ost of luci games are mech, check it out
Rasmus Östersjö @Karont3_viPro 9h @ToDsc2 RT DH: Final results http://dhopen.binarybeast.com/ - VODs and replays will be published in the coming days #DHOpen
On April 30 2013 03:10 HTOMario wrote: Hey I'm HTOMario, a 100% mech Terran. Something about me; I'm in team ECHO I played in WCS and practice everyday. I wanted to try out korea even though I have lag and wanted to share my replays with you all.
On April 30 2013 10:18 RoboBob wrote: Hey, I've been looking for new mech build on Akilon Wastes so I wrote up some replay summaries for all the games in this replay pack on that map.
Akilon Wastes 1: TvT, 13 gas 1 Rax Repear FE into Reactor Hellion, into Cloak Banshee. Opponent misses a lot of SCVs due to Repear micro, Mario outmacros and stomps with Hellion/Banshee attack.
Akilon Wastes 2: Disconnect.
Akilon Wastes 3: TvT, Opponent does a proxy 12/17 2 Rax. Mario's 16 supply SCV scout spots it as the first Rax finishes, shuts it down hard, gg.
Akilon Wastes 4: TvT, 13 gas Reactor Hellion expand into Starport, Mario plays defensive up to 200 supply with Hellbat/Tank/Viking vs a passive opponent going Marauder heavy Bio/Tank. Mario gets into a nice siege position on the enemy third completely uncontested, gg.
Akilon Wastes 5: TvZ, 13 gas Reactor Hellion expand. Enemy goes for a successful 2 base roach timing. Mario holds but Zerg gets 20 worker lead. Follow up Roach push with 1/1 and Overseers to spot mines wipes out Mario's production, but 2 Cloak Banshees kill a ton of Drones to somewhat even the odds. Banshees eventually clear out the Roaches because of no anti air. Zerg goes to 4 bases very quickly, uses Muta+Hydra to deny Mario's 3rd base, but Mario eventually gets it up. Mario goes Hellbat+Thor, Zerg switches to Swarm Host/Roach/Hydra but plays passive and allows Mario to trade very efficiently up to 200 supply of mostly Raven/Mine. Zerg throws the game by making a series of bad decisions (at one point morphing all 15 Corruptors into Broodlords while having no antiair vs Mario's Raven+Viking). Mario wins this surprising game.
Akilon Wastes 6: TvZ, 13 gas Factory expand into uncloaked Banshees. Zerg turtles on 2 bases by suiciding tons of Zerglings against Widow Mines. Zerg goes mass 2 base Muta, but Turrets and Thors are up. Zerg could've won easy if they commited 14 Mutas vs the first Thor, but they dither and get worn down by Widow Mines and Turrets. Hero Mine blocks the Zerg 4th for a long time. Zerg continues going pure Muta/Ling but doesn't micro at all and loses huge packs of units to Thors and Widow Mines. Mario gets up to 200 supply of Hellbat/Mine/Thor and just facerolls the Zerg.
Akilon Wastes 7: TvZ, 15 gas 1 Rax FE into Marine/Tank. Zerg attempts a weird 2 base Roach/Bling bust, it breaks down Mario's wall and he loses all his SCVs. Mass Widow Mine eventually kills everything due to no detection, but the Zerg gets Lair for Overseers and then rolls over Mario.
On May 03 2013 02:40 Porishan wrote: What maps u guys devote on ladder as mech ?
There are a few topics concering this already.
Also, the first post really needs updating!
few topics ? i just found one lol and it was mix with mmm - bio terran players around, please dont post like " hey search it blabla ". My question was kind of simple question,simple answer but i'd rather ask people here because all people here like to mech, and it helps a lot =) You can answer or contribute for the thread, don't post sth useless
On May 03 2013 02:40 Porishan wrote: What maps u guys devote on ladder as mech ?
(GM EU Mech player perspective on maps: ) Veto 1: Planet S is given veto in any MU. It is extremely difficult to grab a third, and forget about a fourth. Therefore Planet S is only suited for all ins or strong 2 base builds (or gamble with 3 base).
Veto 2: Derelict Watcher (one of the new maps). Only played it once so far and my fourth was denied twice with no effort. It is a small improvement over Planet S (you can defend the natural+main and the third at the same time, but not with a comfortable choke) but I feel that you will struggle to defend a fourth against a mobile army. It is also a big map and the long path to your opponents base can be dangerous. Looks like a Zerg player's dream from my POV.
My third veto is a bit optional.
Star Station: Dodgy map since close pos is an option. Really wouldn't go into a macro game under those circumstances. Third is easy (but still could be a PF due to the many paths available to it). Fourth can be available as well, and at that point you have a couple of options which is nice. Mostly, I downvote this map due to the headache that occurs whenever you spawn close air positions.
One should also raise an eyebrow at the other two new maps, Zerus Prime and Klontas Mire since they have backdoor rocks at your natural expansion. That being said, especially on Zerus Prime, there are many available expansions nearby but I feel you might have to use PF for your third (something that I occasionally recommend anyhow).
On May 03 2013 02:40 Porishan wrote: What maps u guys devote on ladder as mech ?
There are a few topics concering this already.
Also, the first post really needs updating!
few topics ? i just found one lol and it was mix with mmm - bio terran players around, please dont post like " hey search it blabla ". My question was kind of simple question,simple answer but i'd rather ask people here because all people here like to mech, and it helps a lot =) You can answer or contribute for the thread, don't post sth useless
If it's a simple question, simple answer, then post in that topic? =) And yes search before you ask a 'simple' question like this. It's already been answered +3 times (even asked by me once in the topic suited for it'
I'm a masters terran (got promoted this season finally :D) and I veto Star Station and Belshir vestige. Belshir vestige I only down voted because I have the biggest trouble dealing with whack a mole Toss/Zergs on that map who keep re-expanding to the other end of the map and Star Station is because I find ultras super hard to deal with on it.
All the other maps I like alot although I've not played Zerus prime yet. Derelict Watcher I really love for slow methodical pushes and it's not too difficult to get a third/fourth and Planet S I usually 2 base it for a while and get close to max, then push forward while taking my third so I have little issue with the third being harder and with good positioning the fourth is pretty easy. Outside of that all the other maps are really awesome.
On May 03 2013 02:40 Porishan wrote: What maps u guys devote on ladder as mech ?
There are a few topics concering this already.
Also, the first post really needs updating!
few topics ? i just found one lol and it was mix with mmm - bio terran players around, please dont post like " hey search it blabla ". My question was kind of simple question,simple answer but i'd rather ask people here because all people here like to mech, and it helps a lot =) You can answer or contribute for the thread, don't post sth useless
If it's a simple question, simple answer, then post in that topic? =) And yes search before you ask a 'simple' question like this. It's already been answered +3 times (even asked by me once in the topic suited for it'
read it over, i asked here because this is mech thread =) i dont give a shit that it was asked by u in other topics suited =) if u want to answer or help, then post something helpful, if not please don't being on high horse and post something pointless =) anyway i see that ur post counts too low =) my bad
Thanks vBr and Qik, i have no idea about new season 3 maps
Bel'shir Vestige : This map is absolutly not good for my defensive style, traveilling from your natural to your 3rd and 4th means you don't have any cover for a long time, too much attack paths (and these are corridors, so if you attack your slow mech army is going to get trapped quickly)
Neo Planet : I sometimes veto it when i want to play long games, but i also sometimes keep it in order to train 2 bases agressive mech play
Don't have a 3rd one, there is clearly less "horrible for mech" maps in HOTS imo (or maybe it's just that it's easier to play agressive mech on 2 bases. Don't know about new maps, Derelict is a bit too open for mech imo, probably only good for big 3 bases timings, and Klontas will require insane amount of PFs/Sensors to secure everything
this seemed like a nice place to ask. I'm off racing as Terran, and having a lot of fun. I'm playing agianst silver and gold players and I want a good, save expand into mech build, preferably one I can use in every match up. Remember this is really low level, it doesn't have to be fancy ^^
Atm I do barrack -> CC -> double gas -> orbital -> double factory -> starport for a hellbat drop ^^
On May 03 2013 02:40 Porishan wrote: What maps u guys devote on ladder as mech ?
There are a few topics concering this already.
Also, the first post really needs updating!
few topics ? i just found one lol and it was mix with mmm - bio terran players around, please dont post like " hey search it blabla ". My question was kind of simple question,simple answer but i'd rather ask people here because all people here like to mech, and it helps a lot =) You can answer or contribute for the thread, don't post sth useless
If it's a simple question, simple answer, then post in that topic? =) And yes search before you ask a 'simple' question like this. It's already been answered +3 times (even asked by me once in the topic suited for it'
read it over, i asked here because this is mech thread =) i dont give a shit that it was asked by u in other topics suited =) if u want to answer or help, then post something helpful, if not please don't being on high horse and post something pointless =) anyway i see that ur post counts too low =) my bad
Thanks vBr and Qik, i have no idea about new season 3 maps
If you didn't care .. you wouldn't keep quoting me. Also because you bring up my post count, you really don't know what to say.
But please, quote me again! That way you'll get another post!!!!! if that's so important for you. And the topic named 'TERRAN MAPVETOS S3' isn't good enough for you? get of your high horse please .. Oh master of the 1k posts ♥
So guys, I have like no free time at all at the moment, with writing and school eating it up. If anyone would like to take ownership of this thread, shoot me a PM.
this seemed like a nice place to ask. I'm off racing as Terran, and having a lot of fun. I'm playing agianst silver and gold players and I want a good, save expand into mech build, preferably one I can use in every match up. Remember this is really low level, it doesn't have to be fancy ^^
Atm I do barrack -> CC -> double gas -> orbital -> double factory -> starport for a hellbat drop ^^
If you want a really safe build that you can use at that level you should try a siege expand. It's safe against pretty much every single all in possible (apart from oracles but you get turrets for that) and sets you up nicely to move in to mech.
depot > rax > gas > orbital > factory/depot > tank > cc. From there you just diverge in to whatever you want to do. It got me to top diamond so it should be fine for you too. ^^
Bel'shir Vestige : This map is absolutly not good for my defensive style, traveilling from your natural to your 3rd and 4th means you don't have any cover for a long time, too much attack paths (and these are corridors, so if you attack your slow mech army is going to get trapped quickly)
Neo Planet : I sometimes veto it when i want to play long games, but i also sometimes keep it in order to train 2 bases agressive mech play
Don't have a 3rd one, there is clearly less "horrible for mech" maps in HOTS imo (or maybe it's just that it's easier to play agressive mech on 2 bases. Don't know about new maps, Derelict is a bit too open for mech imo, probably only good for big 3 bases timings, and Klontas will require insane amount of PFs/Sensors to secure everything
I agree with Bel'shir and consequently changed my third veto from Star Station to Bel'shir. With Klontas you have every possibility to have good map vision with a couple of sensor towers and the xel'naga tower. You only really need to defend the lower part of the map, three siege tanks and two widowmines plus a walloff can guarantee you that the narrow opening will not be taken by anyone (obvious 300 reference)
On May 05 2013 05:31 llIH wrote: Do anyone feel like analyzing InNovation vs Flash games from GSL Code S? 3rd game that is.
Not really an in-depth analysis but:
- Whirlwind is a horrible map for mech (long distances, wide open middle, moving towards the third exposes you to flanks in front of your natural, Medivac bouncing between main and third); and here, it was the worst case scenario with cross spawns. - Playing mech vs bio without air control is impossible. Flash entirely skipped Vikings, making Medivacs instead, but this meant Bogus could simply drop Marauders on top of his Tanks without Flash having any way to stop that (pushing with some SCVs to build some Turrets is a possibility, but of course paving the whole way with Turrets is impossible). The Vikings/Raven squad is an absolute must, which means that you can't continuously build Medivacs—unless your Hellbats drops pay off, but they won't against a vigilant Terran (see Bogus' defensive measures in his bases: Turrets + one Bunker).
On May 05 2013 05:31 llIH wrote: Do anyone feel like analyzing InNovation vs Flash games from GSL Code S? 3rd game that is.
Not really an in-depth analysis but:
- Whirlwind is a horrible map for mech (long distances, wide open middle, moving towards the third exposes you to flanks in front of your natural, Medivac bouncing between main and third); and here, it was the worst case scenario with cross spawns. - Playing mech vs bio without air control is impossible. Flash entirely skipped Vikings, making Medivacs instead, but this meant Bogus could simply drop Marauders on top of his Tanks without Flash having any way to stop that (pushing with some SCVs to build some Turrets is a possibility, but of course paving the whole way with Turrets is impossible). The Vikings/Raven squad is an absolute must, which means that you can't continuously build Medivacs—unless your Hellbats drops pay off, but they won't against a vigilant Terran (see Bogus' defensive measures in his bases: Turrets + one Bunker).
I think what Flash did was fine, and you can push across the map slowly with turrets it's certainly not impossible.
What happened in that game wasn't Flash losing to a lack of air control, sure it would have helped but his drops on top of the bio was doing a hell of a lot of good. Mech is fine on whirlwhind and while ravens and vikings would have helped, Flash's drops on drops were doing really well. I think the point that lost him the game was when he lost about 6 tanks and 8 hellbats in the drop at innovations natural that didn't really do anything. After losing those tanks his turrets got taken down so he lost his air protection and he slowly got picked apart as he couldn't ever really regain a strong defensive stance.
On May 05 2013 05:31 llIH wrote: Do anyone feel like analyzing InNovation vs Flash games from GSL Code S? 3rd game that is.
Not really an in-depth analysis but:
- Whirlwind is a horrible map for mech (long distances, wide open middle, moving towards the third exposes you to flanks in front of your natural, Medivac bouncing between main and third); and here, it was the worst case scenario with cross spawns. - Playing mech vs bio without air control is impossible. Flash entirely skipped Vikings, making Medivacs instead, but this meant Bogus could simply drop Marauders on top of his Tanks without Flash having any way to stop that (pushing with some SCVs to build some Turrets is a possibility, but of course paving the whole way with Turrets is impossible). The Vikings/Raven squad is an absolute must, which means that you can't continuously build Medivacs—unless your Hellbats drops pay off, but they won't against a vigilant Terran (see Bogus' defensive measures in his bases: Turrets + one Bunker).
How about making a few thors or mines, way in TvZ Mech against muta ? Thors or mines can be good against dropping bio on tanks line?
On May 05 2013 05:31 llIH wrote: Do anyone feel like analyzing InNovation vs Flash games from GSL Code S? 3rd game that is.
Not really an in-depth analysis but:
- Whirlwind is a horrible map for mech (long distances, wide open middle, moving towards the third exposes you to flanks in front of your natural, Medivac bouncing between main and third); and here, it was the worst case scenario with cross spawns. - Playing mech vs bio without air control is impossible. Flash entirely skipped Vikings, making Medivacs instead, but this meant Bogus could simply drop Marauders on top of his Tanks without Flash having any way to stop that (pushing with some SCVs to build some Turrets is a possibility, but of course paving the whole way with Turrets is impossible). The Vikings/Raven squad is an absolute must, which means that you can't continuously build Medivacs—unless your Hellbats drops pay off, but they won't against a vigilant Terran (see Bogus' defensive measures in his bases: Turrets + one Bunker).
How about making a few thors or mines, way in TvZ Mech against muta ? Thors or mines can be good against dropping bio on tanks line?
Flash actually saved himself from a doomdrop with some mines mixed in with his turrets. ^^
Thanks TheDwf and Quikz. But you two say the opposite. So I would love one to clear out this so we can get an understanding. Air or not air control was the problem? You can push with turrets slowly or not on wirlwind?
I personally from experience think you can. I do it in pretty much everything but vs z since I have to clear the creep first, but in TvT on Whirlwind I've found that's pretty much the best way to stop yourself being dropped on. It also means if you get pushed back slightly you still have a position to go back to.
You never really want to push over the whole map at first anyway, Flash did it in that game out of desperation, it's much better to push out far enough to secure the back front path into the fourth base you want and then slowly move forward from there. Then again, I'm only going off experience from my games and I'm sure Dwf is a higher level player than me, but I honestly don't think air control was what lost Flash the game, he let himself get far too spread so Innovation picked him apart slowly but surely. He also threw a lot of units away in those drops I mentioned before.
---
I took a 2 week or so break at the end of last season and it seems to have made me really bad vs toss. I think I need to go study my own replays to see what on earth I'm doing differently, but I seem to be losing every single game to DTs doing loads of damage to me at one point.
How do you plan on playing TvT mech with no vikings >_>? Mines are good for drop defense but in a straight fight you want vikings to spot and to snipe medevacs as much as possible In a ladder situation Bio usually transitions into air, meaning you WANT some amount of air to prepare for the later transition.
Producing heavy amounts of mines to counter drops cuts heavily into bfh+hellbat production.
The thing with the flash game is that flash dumped all his starport production into lots of medevacs that didnt really pay off, when he couldve just made vikings instead to counter the suicide drops of bogus
On May 05 2013 09:07 Qikz wrote: I think what Flash did was fine, and you can push across the map slowly with turrets it's certainly not impossible.
It's slow, expensive and impractical. When you push, you want to hit as soon as possible (especially as your opponent may already be on his way to his air transition), not 2-3 minuts after when your Great Wall of China is complete across several screens. What is generally done is that you push from point A to point B then start making Turrets there.
What happened in that game wasn't Flash losing to a lack of air control, sure it would have helped but his drops on top of the bio was doing a hell of a lot of good. Mech is fine on whirlwhind and while ravens and vikings would have helped, Flash's drops on drops were doing really well. I think the point that lost him the game was when he lost about 6 tanks and 8 hellbats in the drop at innovations natural that didn't really do anything. After losing those tanks his turrets got taken down so he lost his air protection and he slowly got picked apart as he couldn't ever really regain a strong defensive stance.
Mech is not "fine" on Whirlwind. You can't make things worse for mech than this map. Well, I suppose you actually can, but everything is against mech on this map. Mech likes small-medium distances, corridors, chokes and easy thirds—Whirlwind features exactly the contrary. Whichever third you take, you're stretched thin and exposed to flanks. Medivacs can bounce from main to third, etc. This does not mean winning with mech is impossible but the map is objectively anti-mech.
Flash's 5 Medivac drop was bad indeed but from my notes there were "only" 3 Tanks in it. The turning point of the game was when Flash lost his defences at his fourth; he had 4 Tanks parked near the PF, and Bogus was able to kill them precisely because Flash had no anti-air nearby, so Bogus dropped his Marauders on top of them. He narrowly failed to kill the PF, but the "demolition cycle" capitalizing on the third ↔ fourth harass was unleashed. Flash didn't lose straight up, but he lost too much defending and couldn't gather enough Tanks to build a threatening army.
You say Flash could "never really regain a strong defensive stance," but why? Because lack of anti-air = Tanks inefficiently destroyed by Marauders/Medivacs = not enough Tanks to hold ground [at this point, after Bogus failed to kill the PF on the fourth, I noted he had only 6 Tanks left, probably around ~20'; at 21'30 he had 10 Tanks] = Flash is in difficulty. He had only 12 Tanks + no anti-air when he pushed towards Bogus' third, while you want 15-20+ of them + anti-air and preferably one Raven to have a strong grasp.
The Medivac approach is possible against biomech because then:
Your opponent doesn't have as many Medivacs (since a significant part of his gas income is tied up in Tank production);
Since he has Tanks, you can drop some of your Hellbats on top of them;
Air transitions occur later with biomech.
Is this Medivac approach more efficient than spending 100% of your gas on Tanks (by midgame) once you have 4-6 Vikings, one Raven and one Banshee, I don't know. But at least this is strategically more sound than against pure bio → air. One example of this is today's game of Flash vs Reality.
But against pure bio, no Viking will inevitably lead to troubles—unless, again, your heavy investment in Medivacs pays off with lots of toasted SCVs. Not having any way to control the Medivac count of your opponent will also give game-ending opportunities to your opponent, such as landing 5-6 Medivacs full of bio in your production, which is generally instant checkmate and cannot be stopped by Turret rings alone because of Afterburners.
On May 05 2013 09:17 Porishan wrote: How about making a few thors or mines, way in TvZ Mech against muta ? Thors or mines can be good against dropping bio on tanks line?
You have no resources (gas/supply/lab fact production time) for enough Thors to stop Medivacs drops on your army, and parking Mines near your Tanks will form a very explosive mixture that may blow part of the Marauder drops on top of your army, but will also likely wipe out your Tanks as well due to the splash fest. Besides, devoting 100% of your reactor fact production time to build a healthy Hellbat wall is better, so Mines are rarely produced outside of the few anti-drops early game ones that are subsequently used as anti-doomdrops defensive tools by midgame.
Today I try use raven to replace viking in mech TvP. So the unit composition is tank, hellbat, and raven. Just three.
I have to say raven is quite a good replacement of vikings. You normally need more than 10 vikings but you only need like 5-6 of ravens.
You use seeker missile to kill all the immortal shields and you can use auto-turrets to tank in front of your tanks. The auto-turrets kill immortal shield fast.
On May 08 2013 04:27 larse wrote: Today I try use raven to replace viking in mech TvP. So the unit composition is tank, hellbat, and raven. Just three.
I have to say raven is quite a good replacement of vikings. You normally need more than 10 vikings but you only need like 5-6 of ravens.
You use seeker missile to kill all the immortal shields and you can use auto-turrets to tank in front of your tanks. The auto-turrets kill immortal shield fast.
Any thought on this?
I think lategame atleast against collosus/air armies that you need a mix of both ravens and vikings. Without both you just die to tempests and void rays. The big thing about Ravens against voidrays is people clump their voids all the time and mostly get badly damaged by the HSM's leaving your vikings the ability to clean up. Against tempests because they don't clump as much you'll need many PDDs, but also vikings to be able to kill the tempest so a mix is good.
Has anyone managed to decipher Flash's mech build in TvT? I've seen loads of games of it now but I can never seem to work out when he times everything.
On May 07 2013 05:06 Porishan wrote: Thanks TheDwf, oh btw does Flash only play mech TvT ? o_O
Frequently, but not exclusively.
On May 09 2013 18:19 Qikz wrote: Has anyone managed to decipher Flash's mech build in TvT? I've seen loads of games of it now but I can never seem to work out when he times everything.
On May 09 2013 18:19 Qikz wrote: Has anyone managed to decipher Flash's mech build in TvT? I've seen loads of games of it now but I can never seem to work out when he times everything.
Which one? He used several in the past weeks.
The one where he opens reactor hellion/viking. I have a build quite similar to that that I use, but his way seems a bit more efficient, I just can't seem to work out the timings from the proleague vods.
On May 09 2013 20:51 Qikz wrote: The one where he opens reactor hellion/viking. I have a build quite similar to that that I use, but his way seems a bit more efficient, I just can't seem to work out the timings from the proleague vods.
There are several possibilities, out of 1. gasless expand, 2. gas 15 expand with only 3 Marines before Reactor (no extra Marines after this) and 3. gas 15 expand with 2 Marines before Reactor, going up to 4 or 6 Marines afterwards. Which one did you see?
On May 09 2013 20:51 Qikz wrote: The one where he opens reactor hellion/viking. I have a build quite similar to that that I use, but his way seems a bit more efficient, I just can't seem to work out the timings from the proleague vods.
There are several possibilities, out of 1. gasless expand, 2. gas 15 expand with only 3 Marines before Reactor (no extra Marines after this) and 3. gas 15 expand with 2 Marines before Reactor, going up to 4 or 6 Marines afterwards. Which one did you see?
.I think I must have seen all of them since I watch all of Flash's games
I've kind of modified my own opening now at least to make me a slight bit more safe. Where I am on ladder everyone seems to open up with really quick tank pushes so to make myself safe I open up with a single tank and then switch into reactor hellion/raven/viking depending on what I';ve scouted. Seems to be giving me a lot more success due to the amount of early agression that seems to be happening around low masters. I think I'll stick with that for a while.
It feels better now I've jumped back into ranked after gaining more confidence in unranked again. I was having some really terrible loses but I'm getting quite a lot of good wins again and playing unranked for a bit allowed me to focus more on my builds than anything else. Thanks for the help. ^^
with TvP Mech not yet fully discovered, only a handful of players who are pretty much using mech in their TvP like HTOMario, iSHOCKZ, and Strelok.
I personally would prefer Strelok's opening with Gas First into 4 to 6 Hellions and basically rape Probes.
But the main point of this post is that, with the very fast Oracle pressure/harass, is there any way for us to hold it off while making Protoss stay defensively?
Other question is, should I get both upgrades or just plainly Weapon Upgrades?
On May 13 2013 15:48 PsyXSC2 wrote: with TvP Mech not yet fully discovered, only a handful of players who are pretty much using mech in their TvP like HTOMario, iSHOCKZ, and Strelok.
I personally would prefer Strelok's opening with Gas First into 4 to 6 Hellions and basically rape Probes.
But the main point of this post is that, with the very fast Oracle pressure/harass, is there any way for us to hold it off while making Protoss stay defensively?
Other question is, should I get both upgrades or just plainly Weapon Upgrades?
Last question, how and when to attack?
:D
for the first question, scouting is the key, u have to scout how many gases he took, how many probes per gas, how many pylon, if u smell something fishy, just make 2 mines instead of first two helions, or 2 mines after first two helions. 2 mines are enough against fast oracle, keep scouting and being aggressive with 4 helions after to make sure he does allin or not
On May 13 2013 15:48 PsyXSC2 wrote: with TvP Mech not yet fully discovered, only a handful of players who are pretty much using mech in their TvP like HTOMario, iSHOCKZ, and Strelok.
I personally would prefer Strelok's opening with Gas First into 4 to 6 Hellions and basically rape Probes.
But the main point of this post is that, with the very fast Oracle pressure/harass, is there any way for us to hold it off while making Protoss stay defensively?
Other question is, should I get both upgrades or just plainly Weapon Upgrades?
Last question, how and when to attack?
:D
If you are going the strelok build you should attack at around 5-6 tanks. Don't really force an engagement, but rather place yourself in a decent position and force him to attack you. Remember that he can warp in behind your army, so keep a few hellbats to cover flanks(don't need a lot).
If your harass went well he will have almost nothing when you actually attack, which is key. If he goes immortals, he will only have like 3 or so and nothing really to deal with hellbats, if he went storm it is likely not ready or just about to hit(and while archons are strong, 2-3 archons aren't really that strong against the amount of hellbats you have) and if he went colossi, tanks+vikings murder them, esp. when the mecher is the aggressor(aka colossi can't just back up regen shields and go in again at another angle).
I found that kop build TvP much more safer and strong but it's hard to know his build is viable on other maps since he used on Fighting spirit with high yield gas in main base. Has anyone tried it yet ?
On May 15 2013 11:51 Porishan wrote: I found that kop build TvP much more safer and strong but it's hard to know his build is viable on other maps since he used on Fighting spirit with high yield gas in main base. Has anyone tried it yet ?
Helps if you explain what is involves. Not everyone watched SPL.
On May 18 2013 23:38 Juice! wrote: I find mech very hard in TvZ, when they go like a lot of SH with some Viper and Corruptor
Mech TvT i was wondering does helbat tank raven > helbat tank viking?
I I think in TvT it's much more important to have a mix of ravens and vikings rather than just one of them. TvZ I'd say that just massing ravens is better than using vikings outside of a few as HSM is so much better against zerg air than vikings are and PDD is probably one of the most useful spells and I most certainly prefer about 6-7 ravens in TvP with mass viking flood if I need it against tempest and carrier. I think ravens alone with turret support deal with mass voids, especially if they clump.
so the tvz mech build on daybreak (mvp vs stephano) is something we haven't seen in a while correct, or have I just been missing games int he past that did something similar. I feel like its the first time we've seen it in quite some time
On May 30 2013 05:02 DrAbuse wrote: A question for high-masters players: how to deal with swarm hosts?
I'm masters, but probably not high masters but what you want to do is get enough tanks to make sure you're holding the locust waves and then go dropping all over the place. Another very important thing worth doing is get buildings infront of the tanks to help tank.
Ravens with PDD also are a big help if they get close to your tanks.
Yes, but it's a different type of bio tank. The tank count goes up to 10. It gives you the very mechy feeling. To me, it satisfies my 50% mech obsession, which is good enough. SC2 pure mech can satisfy me mech obsession to 80%, and BW mech can satisfy 99%.
A bit of a strange game. I can't tell if Light just panicked when he saw the Tempests or what he did was a planed response, interesting game non the less. 3ed game of mech we had in HOTS so far from the Koreans i think.
On June 11 2013 21:48 Porishan wrote: @Sapphire: thanks, i don't follow SPL these days. Most of games Korean Mech TvP in HotS credits to Kespa guys, doesn't it ?
As far as i know yes. It should be a good sign as it probably means they are practicing in house and are happy enough with the results to bring it in official games, even if it's just a couple of games. God i wish someone would ask the coaches what they think of mech....
This season so far has been a complete joke for me. 30 games, I've not met a single Terran at all and every single TvZ I lose late game. It's really affecting my mindset and it's making me angry again, I mean I had to take a break from the game this time to revise for a uni exam, but whenever this happens it really sucks so damn much.
Has anyone got any replays of them actually dealing with ultras? It seems no matter what I build, with full upgrades everything just dies to ultras unless I can hide behind walls.
I think this might be a very important game for mech TvT. It shows what appears to be a strong response to air that does not consist of simply "build more air".
There were mistakes by Flash that made the style look stronger then it probably is, like loosing his Tanks for nothing.
Now it looks like air Terran needs a lot more ground support and correct positioning, especially Siege Tanks, and this is very good for the game IMO as it makes the armies more diverse and spread out. I'm starting to like mines
So some general mech questions. I'm a masters toss and diamond z/t playing random this season and mech seems like the best way to play T without having spectacular micro.
The idea in TvZ is to do a basic 3cc build but hellion banshee or regular hellion into wm/hellbat/tank/thor?
TvT I want to do hellbat drops but I want to do defensive hellbat/viking/raven play, is this possible? Also, I like blue flame, is the upgrade allowing switching between the 2 viable?
TvP can I do fast 3CC builds off of mine or hellion or hellbat drops?
Also :
Can i spare a second SP in most MUs for ravens once I get my third? Is double armory standard? I tend to go 2 plating then a second armory for 1/3 on ground, then 2 vehicle 1 air as a nice benchmark?
The idea in TvZ is to do a basic 3cc build but hellion banshee or regular hellion into wm/hellbat/tank/thor?
with helion banshee opening u can either defend against many allins by zergs or kill his fast 3rd
TvT I want to do hellbat drops but I want to do defensive hellbat/viking/raven play, is this possible? Also, I like blue flame, is the upgrade allowing switching between the 2 viable?
I've never played hellbat vk ravens play, but hellbat drops is just an opening so u can go whatever after taking 2nd and third. Blue flame upgrade is only for helions atm, hellbats deal full damage as blueflame ( this is gonna change tho ).
As a question to anyone with advice or insight into this, what is a good way to start improving in-game habits? I mean obviously practicing a habit will help cement it (though easier said than done) but I mean maybe more of a progression type of thing like "start by just monitoring ___ , and then once you get comfortable with your ability to do that while doing other things, start trying to do ____ as well."
I know people in here have been talking a lot about TvP, but does anyone have any recommended openings they can give me for TvZ? I seem to be completely lost in that matchup compared to the others early game and lategame.
On June 14 2013 01:18 Qikz wrote: This season so far has been a complete joke for me. 30 games, I've not met a single Terran at all and every single TvZ I lose late game. It's really affecting my mindset and it's making me angry again, I mean I had to take a break from the game this time to revise for a uni exam, but whenever this happens it really sucks so damn much.
Has anyone got any replays of them actually dealing with ultras? It seems no matter what I build, with full upgrades everything just dies to ultras unless I can hide behind walls.
Ive been experiencing something similar, I've beaten other zerg compositions plenty of times(and lost as well) but mass ultras seems to be giving me a hard time as of late. I'm pretty confident in fighting against other things such as roach/hydra/viper, sh+mass turtling, etc, but ultras are pretty hard to beat and more and more zergs seem to be favouring this instead of other compositions.
HOWEVER it appears that I've found a good solution to this problem while watching strelok's stream. Before I used to stop tank production and start to mass Thors to fight against ultras, after all, on theory, Thors would be better than Tanks at killing ultras but it appears that isn't the case in most real situations. What I saw strelok do vs mass Ultralisk armies was just make mass tanks...that's right, mass Tanks instead of Thors, he only gets enough Thors to fight whatever Mutalisks the opponents have. The reason this seems to work better is because Tanks are faster and more mobile than Thors which have a slow turn speed and a really crappy AI that seems to screw up pretty often. Tanks don't have to turn around to shoot (because of their turret) and have almost the same dps as a Thor when unsieged. Also each tank builds faster than a Thor which makes it easier to reach a good number of them.
It seems Thors are only good vs Ultras when you have a lot of them (as close to 1:1 ratio as possible) whereas Tanks do ok'ish even when you don't have a lot of them and they are much easier to maneuver around and get in a good position (behind your hellbats).
So basically use your gas on Tanks instead of Thors and stop Raven production (dont need more than a couple) when you see he's going mass Ultras. What I realized I was doing wrong was wasting too much gas on mass Thors and Ravens when just massing tanks would do the job. This doesn't sound like its very good but the better maneuverability of unsieged Tanks make a BIG difference when engaging ultras.
On June 28 2013 18:29 Qikz wrote: I know people in here have been talking a lot about TvP, but does anyone have any recommended openings they can give me for TvZ? I seem to be completely lost in that matchup compared to the others early game and lategame.
Ok, well after experimenting with a ton of different openings in nearly all the matchups (not TvT yet though) I've come to the conclusion that the best opening for me to possibly do on ladder is to just siege expand. I don't do a traditional siege expand but my entire idealogy behind my opening is to get a lot of tanks very quickly with a quick ebay to hold off any kind of air early on. It goes a little like this.
depot rax gas depot orbital factory ~pull 1 guy out of gas CC ~put guy back in gas depot 2nd gas
Then you constantly produce tanks until you bank enough gas to get another tech lab factory. From there you can take it where you want, my usual followup is to get an armory then another factory (reactor this time) 2 thors if against zerg and I get blue flame with a starport and third CC.
I start off behind in bases but even economically as I'm never going to take any damage from anything. I'm yet to be broken from an all in (unlike before where I was trying other things) and it means I can take a relatively fast third completely safe.
My new lategame is rather interesting as I stick with 2/3 techlab factories and get about 5-6 reactors and I constantly send blue flame hellions everywhere I can to force my opponent constantly back or to spam defenses while slowly building a large tank/raven count. If you add ravens early enough in large numbers you can pretty much crush any form of greater spire, but if I see that he's going hive off a style that can't defend drops really well then I'll send a double thor drop either to his main to snipe the hive/tech buildings or to snipe an expo and back out.
This may not work higher up in the ladder but I was low/mid Masters last season after tanking low down into diamond I've been focusing on my defense as cheese has been what's giving me the biggest issues.
On July 02 2013 00:07 fried_rice wrote: Tanks don't have to turn around to shoot (because of their turret) and have almost the same dps as a Thor when unsieged.
More actually against armored targets. Having 3-4 Thors isn't a bad idea against hive tech, but otherwise you're correct, unsieged Tanks with whatever buffer you have (for instance you have to land Vikings if you still have many of them after killing his air the previous engagement) is the way to deal with ultras. Shift focusing individual Ultralisks with Tanks makes them melt quickly.
On July 02 2013 00:07 fried_rice wrote: Tanks don't have to turn around to shoot (because of their turret) and have almost the same dps as a Thor when unsieged.
More actually against armored targets. Having 3-4 Thors isn't a bad idea against hive tech, but otherwise you're correct, unsieged Tanks with whatever buffer you have (for instance you have to land Vikings if you still have many of them after killing his air the previous engagement) is the way to deal with ultras. Shift focusing individual Ultralisks with Tanks makes them melt quickly.
On July 03 2013 05:30 saaaa wrote: I figured out to different styles of playing mech in the TvT MU.
The first one is going for Tank+Hellion and just before the Engagement occurs you transform your Hellbats. (i call it Innovation Style because he uses this. And on the other side a Tank+Hellbat composition with no hellions and like 8 MediVacs for dropping bases and the enemy army in an engagement.
What style is in your opinion better and why? And what style should i use preferably against Pure Bio or Bio+Tank compositions?
i just want to add this here as well - maybe some guys watch only terran help me thread and vice versa
On July 03 2013 05:30 saaaa wrote: I figured out to different styles of playing mech in the TvT MU.
The first one is going for Tank+Hellion and just before the Engagement occurs you transform your Hellbats. (i call it Innovation Style because he uses this. And on the other side a Tank+Hellbat composition with no hellions and like 8 MediVacs for dropping bases and the enemy army in an engagement.
What style is in your opinion better and why? And what style should i use preferably against Pure Bio or Bio+Tank compositions?
i just want to add this here as well - maybe some guys watch only terran help me thread and vice versa
On July 03 2013 05:30 saaaa wrote: I figured out to different styles of playing mech in the TvT MU.
The first one is going for Tank+Hellion and just before the Engagement occurs you transform your Hellbats. (i call it Innovation Style because he uses this. And on the other side a Tank+Hellbat composition with no hellions and like 8 MediVacs for dropping bases and the enemy army in an engagement.
What style is in your opinion better and why? And what style should i use preferably against Pure Bio or Bio+Tank compositions?
i just want to add this here as well - maybe some guys watch only terran help me thread and vice versa
for me it's the 2nd one.
Yes i tend to this style of mech, too but maybe a combination of both is the best.
With the Hellion+Tank Style you can defend drops with fast Blue Flame and some already positioned tanks in your main really well and Blue Flame Hellions are a good option for runbys and scouting hidden expansions and the Hellbat+MediVac style is way better for direct engagements with dropping them on top of the army. I think in TvT Midgame BF Hellions Drops are way more effective than Hellbat Drops because with Mine+TUrret or Bunker+Turret you are pretty well set up as a bio player against those hellbat drops with Hellion Drop you can drop them at the egde of the base and run them in.
Maybe the best solution is maybe 8-10 Hellions and rest in Hellbats with 6-8 MediVacs? What do think about this?
upgrade transform ability for helions in mid game and we have more flexible solution ? I was playing hellbats heavily style so, gonna try helions tho. How bout the helions in other matchups ?
On July 03 2013 16:45 Porishan wrote: upgrade transform ability for helions in mid game and we have more flexible solution ? I was playing hellbats heavily style so, gonna try helions tho. How bout the helions in other matchups ?
I use hellions in pretty much every matchup as I much prefer the range on their splash to hellbats and also archons are far too good against hellbats for them to tank anything.
I always get the research though and depending on the army I scout I may switch into hellbats, like if the opponent is massing lings or just massing zealot immortal then I'll switch into hellbats, if not I'll just sit with hellions and kill him that way. Zerg is weird, I only ever go some hellbats and set up a small wall if he's going mass ling and I then keep the rest as BFH.
My style is a bit different and requires a weird style of play to make work, but when it does, it's great. BFH's are great at running past defenses to kill mineral lines late game too, even if there's cannons the BFH with their range should atleast be able to get a good number of probes and same goes for drones/scvs.
If you do use the hellion style, make sure you abuse the hell out of their mobility. I use like 4 reactors on 3 base if I start banking minerals when maxed and I can't push and just keep throwing small groups of hellions everywhere. It not only allows you to keep his army on the other side of the map, but it allows you to take up a position in the middle and get a fourth/fifth base.
On July 03 2013 16:45 Porishan wrote: upgrade transform ability for helions in mid game and we have more flexible solution ? I was playing hellbats heavily style so, gonna try helions tho. How bout the helions in other matchups ?
yeah sure but to concerns about this.
first you don't have the gas at the stage of the game to upgrade both (Blue Flame and Transform) and the second is that your units have to be "ready" to react either to defend or to drop and not wait for the transform.
If a Bio Player drops your base and you need to transform your hellbats into hellions because they are faster you will loose your whole base..
Maybe defend the Drops with MediVac+Hellbat and Boost and just a few Hellions like 4-6 for runbys?
Grubby just demonstrates perfectly the weakness of mech.
This is the second time you post some random TvP where Protoss player happen to outplay Terran going mech and state that those games demonstrate the biggest weakness of mech. Either be more specific, or don't do this. I could show you games where Terran wins going mech and say it demonstrates the biggest strength of mech. Could this be any less relevant?
Grubby just demonstrates perfectly the weakness of mech.
This is the second time you post some random TvP where Protoss player happen to outplay Terran going mech and state that those games demonstrate the biggest weakness of mech. Either be more specific, or don't do this. I could show you games where Terran wins going mech and say it demonstrates the biggest strength of mech. Could this be any less relevant?
99% of the mech TvP VODs in this thread is posted by me. And I have posted more than 100 VODs of Mech TvP. I can say no one has contributed more mech TvP VOD than me.
This is a resource thread, so I provide the VODs. The following was just my opinion. You don't need to accept it.
Thanks laser, good work as always I appreciate any mech vods contribution fo this thread regardless the result of vods, imo we also can learn a lot in those losing games.
Lately i saw a game of apocalypse against a zerg in a cup match and he went for a reaper Fe into Reactor Fac FE into Cloak banshee and then build 2! additional CC before adding 2 armorys... in fact 5 CC, Double Upgrades with Reacor Fac+Cloak Banshee
i ask myself is this viable as standard? The reapers give complete map control in combination with the later hellions and against all kinds of all-ins you get a banshee with cloak. The additional facs (2nd&3rd) were added at around 10:30. Incredibly game.
I'am interested in your thoughts. if you want i will provide the vod
On July 29 2013 02:08 saaaa wrote: Lately i saw a game of apocalypse against a zerg in a cup match and he went for a reaper Fe into Reactor Fac FE into Cloak banshee and then build 2! additional CC before adding 2 armorys... in fact 5 CC, Double Upgrades with Reacor Fac+Cloak Banshee
i ask myself is this viable as standard? The reapers give complete map control in combination with the later hellions and against all kinds of all-ins you get a banshee with cloak. The additional facs (2nd&3rd) were added at around 10:30. Incredibly game.
I'am interested in your thoughts. if you want i will provide the vod
Quick Roach/Hydra busts will have an advantage against this. They already punish a Hellion/Banshee > 3CC > 2x Armory. Not that those are common at all. Well done Roach/Baneling busts can still do a lot of damage to Hellion/Banshee > 3CC > 2x Armory builds and often times equalize or even get a slight advantage. I suppose you could easily scout a Muta rush but that's always been a way to shut down this kind of build. The Mech follow-up to fast 4CC's doesn't make a ton of sense to me because you are delaying a faster gas for more minerals. Maybe on a map like Akilon Wastes where you can be sure that you can get those 4 bases quickly.
On July 29 2013 02:08 saaaa wrote: Lately i saw a game of apocalypse against a zerg in a cup match and he went for a reaper Fe into Reactor Fac FE into Cloak banshee and then build 2! additional CC before adding 2 armorys... in fact 5 CC, Double Upgrades with Reacor Fac+Cloak Banshee
i ask myself is this viable as standard? The reapers give complete map control in combination with the later hellions and against all kinds of all-ins you get a banshee with cloak. The additional facs (2nd&3rd) were added at around 10:30. Incredibly game.
I'am interested in your thoughts. if you want i will provide the vod
Quick Roach/Hydra busts will have an advantage against this. They already punish a Hellion/Banshee > 3CC > 2x Armory. Not that those are common at all. Well done Roach/Baneling busts can still do a lot of damage to Hellion/Banshee > 3CC > 2x Armory builds and often times equalize or even get a slight advantage. I suppose you could easily scout a Muta rush but that's always been a way to shut down this kind of build. The Mech follow-up to fast 4CC's doesn't make a ton of sense to me because you are delaying a faster gas for more minerals. Maybe on a map like Akilon Wastes where you can be sure that you can get those 4 bases quickly.
yeah i guess it's right. for who are interested in the VOD
Bomber was the third person ever to use mech in TvP in Korea since HOTS (vs Rain Game 2), beside Samsung Kop and Woongjin Light in SPL. What do you think might be the reason to use such a baller strategy in semifinals?
Bomber was the third person ever to use mech in TvP in Korea since HOTS (vs Rain Game 2), beside Samsung Kop and Woongjin Light in SPL. What do you think might be the reason to use such a baller strategy in semifinals?
Well Rain said a lot of players have been using it in practice so maybe it's finally getting support?
Bomber was the third person ever to use mech in TvP in Korea since HOTS (vs Rain Game 2), beside Samsung Kop and Woongjin Light in SPL. What do you think might be the reason to use such a baller strategy in semifinals?
Mech timings can be brutal if Protoss doesn't suspect them and tries to tech everything at once, but Rain was too well prepared and his game plan was too solid.
Bomber was the third person ever to use mech in TvP in Korea since HOTS (vs Rain Game 2), beside Samsung Kop and Woongjin Light in SPL. What do you think might be the reason to use such a baller strategy in semifinals?
Mech timings can be brutal if Protoss doesn't suspect them and tries to tech everything at once, but Rain was too well prepared and his game plan was too solid.
I gotta say too bombers control was pretty bad. He had like 4 medivacs he went without them im pretty sure you drop ontop of the protoss army with those and then they take out all the immortal shields ect. He ate storms too thats terrible. People say you cant run away from them well i mean you kind've can.
I think if bomber was willing to do it in a pro match too he must've had a decent win rate with practice partners / ladder.
Can anyone point me to a mech vs mech guide? What are the general strategies and tactics for playing mech, especially mech vs mech Tvt? TL has a bunch of guides dedicated specifically to certain builds and how to play them, but I'm looking more for general mindsets.
For example, for marine tank mirrors I would say you have to constantly be moving your army and try to maneuver your way around the opponents army to gain advantageous positions. From there try to shell expos, constantly drop to tax his multitasking and forcing him to unsiege, keep map control and for the most part expand aggressively.
I have none of that game sense in mech vs mech, especially moving the army and knowing how far to extend or stay back. It feels like mech has more of a "spoon", constraining style that I never mastered as I am deathly afraid of doom drops. I almost never use hellbats either. I use forgg's mech build which emphasizes heavy hellion usage.
On August 02 2013 12:33 halpimcat wrote: Can anyone point me to a mech vs mech guide? What are the general strategies and tactics for playing mech, especially mech vs mech Tvt? TL has a bunch of guides dedicated specifically to certain builds and how to play them, but I'm looking more for general mindsets.
For example, for marine tank mirrors I would say you have to constantly be moving your army and try to maneuver your way around the opponents army to gain advantageous positions. From there try to shell expos, constantly drop to tax his multitasking and forcing him to unsiege, keep map control and for the most part expand aggressively.
I have none of that game sense in mech vs mech, especially moving the army and knowing how far to extend or stay back. It feels like mech has more of a "spoon", constraining style that I never mastered as I am deathly afraid of doom drops. I almost never use hellbats either. I use forgg's mech build which emphasizes heavy hellion usage.
Mech vs mech most of the times is a critical mass of tanks and hellions/hellbats and who have the best position/vision in the map (with vikings normally) will win. And who switch faster/better into BC have a nice point in the match xD
U can see Avilo's stream who always play in mech wiht personal builds and mass ravens its very curious.
This is an amazing mech TvP between Dayshi and Harstem.
Dayshi has the newest mech build that no one knows before. It works like a miracle.
But he still got destroyed by pure immortal.
If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
This is an amazing mech TvP between Dayshi and Harstem.
Dayshi has the newest mech build that no one knows before. It works like a miracle.
But he still got destroyed by pure immortal.
If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
This "Tank" based play I feel can only work if you really manage to kill a lot of workers. I think "Thor" based mech as shown by Bomber vs Rain is way more viable. Since at this point it is pretty obvious Blizzard hates and will not buff Tank in any reasonable way, I think the future of mech (if there is some) is "Thor" based mech.
Grubby just demonstrates perfectly the weakness of mech.
This is the second time you post some random TvP where Protoss player happen to outplay Terran going mech and state that those games demonstrate the biggest weakness of mech. Either be more specific, or don't do this. I could show you games where Terran wins going mech and say it demonstrates the biggest strength of mech. Could this be any less relevant?
99% of the mech TvP VODs in this thread is posted by me. And I have posted more than 100 VODs of Mech TvP. I can say no one has contributed more mech TvP VOD than me.
This is a resource thread, so I provide the VODs. The following was just my opinion. You don't need to accept it.
Sorry, may I ask why haven't you posted here VODs of Loner winning several matches with mech?
This is an amazing mech TvP between Dayshi and Harstem.
Dayshi has the newest mech build that no one knows before. It works like a miracle.
But he still got destroyed by pure immortal.
If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position.
Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions.
And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you.
This is an amazing mech TvP between Dayshi and Harstem.
Dayshi has the newest mech build that no one knows before. It works like a miracle.
But he still got destroyed by pure immortal.
If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position.
Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions.
And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you.
May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"?
Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
This is an amazing mech TvP between Dayshi and Harstem.
Dayshi has the newest mech build that no one knows before. It works like a miracle.
But he still got destroyed by pure immortal.
If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position.
Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions.
And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you.
May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"?
Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army.
On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage.
As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors.
As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in.
Edit: Another thing just popped up in my head. Protoss can even throw Forcefields in front of the Thor/Hellbat army. Hellbats can't break them when they're in the front and are fodder for Immos and Stalkers. If the Thors come fore to break the FFs, they're again vulnerable to Immo shots (not to mention that they have to crawl through the Hellbats first). With Tanks you have the range advantage, so you don't care about FFs.
This is an amazing mech TvP between Dayshi and Harstem.
Dayshi has the newest mech build that no one knows before. It works like a miracle.
But he still got destroyed by pure immortal.
If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position.
Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions.
And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you.
May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"?
Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army.
On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage.
As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors.
As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in.
Apparently you didn't read the part where I state that you can (and you should) make at least few Tanks to retain the range advantage. If you go Hellbat/Thor as a bulk of your army, it doesn't mean building Tanks is forbidden. 3-4 Tanks is enough to hold ground against Colossi/Stalkers or anything Protoss has to kite you with. But at the same time, you don't risk being overwhelmed by Zealots/Immortals/Archons so badly (you need Ghosts anyways, obviously). You don't risk being caught unsieged or surprised by air switch. Believe it or not, Thors do better than Tanks against Voidrays or Tempests. Also, you can repair Thors with SCVs whereas Tanks die instantly.
So by going Hellbat/Thor + few Tanks as a support instead of pure Hellbat/Tank, you have range advangate, more durable army, more mobility and at least some anti-air. Sounds good to me..
Also, Colossi or Stalkers are not the problem as we all know. It's Immortals and air. So I would gladly trade my range advantage for the chance of not being slaughtered by units designed to hard counter Tanks anyways.
edit: I'd say if you face Protoss that is making Sentries against mech, your chances of winning are way higher then going Bio.
This is an amazing mech TvP between Dayshi and Harstem.
Dayshi has the newest mech build that no one knows before. It works like a miracle.
But he still got destroyed by pure immortal.
If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position.
Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions.
And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you.
May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"?
Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army.
On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage.
As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors.
As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in.
Apparently you didn't read the part where I state that you can (and you should) make at least few Tanks to retain the range advantage. If you go Hellbat/Thor as a bulk of your army, it doesn't mean building Tanks is forbidden. 3-4 Tanks is enough to hold ground against Colossus/Stalkers or anything Protoss has to kite you with. But at the same time, you don't risk being overwhelmed by Zealots/Immortals/Archons so badly (you need Ghosts anyways, obviously). You don't risk being caught unsieged or surprised by air switch. Believe it or not, Thors do better than Tanks against Voidrays or Tempests. Also, you can repair Thors with SCVs whereas Tanks die instantly.
So by going Hellbat/Thor + few Tanks as a support instead of pure Hellbat/Tank, you have range advangate, more durable army, more mobility and at least some anti-air. Sounds good to me..
Well ok, you mentioned adding a few Tanks, while I was talking about this specific case of Bomber going pure Thor/Hellbat (without any Tanks). And please don't talk like I didn't know Tanks can't shoot up. I'm well aware of the fact that Thors are better against Voidrays/Tempests than Tanks. Actually, I usually add a few Thors to my Tank/Hellion/Hellbat army too, to have some anti-air and some beefiness, just like you would add a few Tanks for the range.
So the main question here would actually be "more Tanks or more Thors?" The answer is very clear: it depends Against a ground based Protoss, imo Tanks are better, because they melt the Protoss army way faster. Yes Thors can take more damage, but they also have to, because the Protoss army survives a lot longer and therefor does more damage to you. Against Skytoss certainly Thors are better for the obvious reason (above). In that case I'd also recommend to stop producing Hellions/Hellbats and get Widowmines from the reactored Faxes. But you'll have to get mass Vikings still. The most important part here is just the scouting. If you miss the Sky transition, you're quit much doomed either way.
This is an amazing mech TvP between Dayshi and Harstem.
Dayshi has the newest mech build that no one knows before. It works like a miracle.
But he still got destroyed by pure immortal.
If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position.
Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions.
And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you.
May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"?
Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army.
On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage.
As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors.
As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in.
Apparently you didn't read the part where I state that you can (and you should) make at least few Tanks to retain the range advantage. If you go Hellbat/Thor as a bulk of your army, it doesn't mean building Tanks is forbidden. 3-4 Tanks is enough to hold ground against Colossus/Stalkers or anything Protoss has to kite you with. But at the same time, you don't risk being overwhelmed by Zealots/Immortals/Archons so badly (you need Ghosts anyways, obviously). You don't risk being caught unsieged or surprised by air switch. Believe it or not, Thors do better than Tanks against Voidrays or Tempests. Also, you can repair Thors with SCVs whereas Tanks die instantly.
So by going Hellbat/Thor + few Tanks as a support instead of pure Hellbat/Tank, you have range advangate, more durable army, more mobility and at least some anti-air. Sounds good to me..
Well ok, you mentioned adding a few Tanks, while I was talking about this specific case of Bomber going pure Thor/Hellbat (without any Tanks). And please don't talk like I didn't know Tanks can't shoot up. I'm well aware of the fact that Thors are better against Voidrays/Tempests than Tanks. Actually, I usually add a few Thors to my Tank/Hellion/Hellbat army too, to have some anti-air and some beefiness, just like you would add a few Tanks for the range.
So the main question here would actually be "more Tanks or more Thors?" The answer is very clear: it depends Against a ground based Protoss, imo Tanks are better, because they melt the Protoss army way faster. Yes Thors can take more damage, but they also have to, because the Protoss army survives a lot longer and therefor does more damage to you. Against Skytoss certainly Thors are better for the obvious reason (above). In that case I'd also recommend to stop producing Hellions/Hellbats and get Widowmines from the reactored Faxes. But you'll have to get mass Vikings still. The most important part here is just the scouting. If you miss the Sky transition, you're quit much doomed either way.
I don't know man, I have lost countless times with well positioned Hellbat/Tank army to 1a from Protoss just like that. Protoss army melting to Tanks happen only if you somehow happen to have this perfect engagement (clumped deathball running into choke, everything EMPed, 20 Tanks sieged). I'd rather have more chances to win closely than trying to melt his army in 1 lucky engagement. Good Protoss players are not going to give you that perfect engagement anyways. But that might be just me. There are some good players that play Hellbat/Tank based mech (Strelok). All in all, I think mech is not far from being viable. If they lower armory cost, fix this Hellbat upgrades clusterfuck or just make mech somehow easier to play (as they said), we might see it in pro games finally.
This is an amazing mech TvP between Dayshi and Harstem.
Dayshi has the newest mech build that no one knows before. It works like a miracle.
But he still got destroyed by pure immortal.
If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position.
Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions.
And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you.
May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"?
Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army.
On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage.
As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors.
As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in.
Apparently you didn't read the part where I state that you can (and you should) make at least few Tanks to retain the range advantage. If you go Hellbat/Thor as a bulk of your army, it doesn't mean building Tanks is forbidden. 3-4 Tanks is enough to hold ground against Colossus/Stalkers or anything Protoss has to kite you with. But at the same time, you don't risk being overwhelmed by Zealots/Immortals/Archons so badly (you need Ghosts anyways, obviously). You don't risk being caught unsieged or surprised by air switch. Believe it or not, Thors do better than Tanks against Voidrays or Tempests. Also, you can repair Thors with SCVs whereas Tanks die instantly.
So by going Hellbat/Thor + few Tanks as a support instead of pure Hellbat/Tank, you have range advangate, more durable army, more mobility and at least some anti-air. Sounds good to me..
Well ok, you mentioned adding a few Tanks, while I was talking about this specific case of Bomber going pure Thor/Hellbat (without any Tanks). And please don't talk like I didn't know Tanks can't shoot up. I'm well aware of the fact that Thors are better against Voidrays/Tempests than Tanks. Actually, I usually add a few Thors to my Tank/Hellion/Hellbat army too, to have some anti-air and some beefiness, just like you would add a few Tanks for the range.
So the main question here would actually be "more Tanks or more Thors?" The answer is very clear: it depends Against a ground based Protoss, imo Tanks are better, because they melt the Protoss army way faster. Yes Thors can take more damage, but they also have to, because the Protoss army survives a lot longer and therefor does more damage to you. Against Skytoss certainly Thors are better for the obvious reason (above). In that case I'd also recommend to stop producing Hellions/Hellbats and get Widowmines from the reactored Faxes. But you'll have to get mass Vikings still. The most important part here is just the scouting. If you miss the Sky transition, you're quit much doomed either way.
I don't know man, I have lost countless times with well positioned Hellbat/Tank army to 1a from Protoss just like that. Protoss army melting to Tanks happen only if you somehow happen to have this perfect engagement (clumped deathball running into choke, everything EMPed, 20 Tanks sieged). I'd rather have more chances to win closely than trying to melt his army in 1 lucky engagement. Good Protoss players are not going to give you that perfect engagement anyways. But that might be just me. There are some good players that play Hellbat/Tank based mech (Strelok). All in all, I think mech is not far from being viable. If they lower armory cost, fix this Hellbat upgrades clusterfuck or just make mech somehow easier to play (as they said), we might see it in pro games finally.
Aye, that's right. I lost to quite a lot of 1a'ing of Protoss, too, but mainly when I played bio (I just don't have the multitasking for bio). At least with Tank/Hellion/Hellbat I have the feeling that I had a chance to win, if only I position better. Usually I can see my positioning mistakes in my replys right away, whereas with bio it was always more like I would have had to drop more/better, harass better, pull him more around, get some better small engagements, etc. just to have a small chance to win the inevitable big battle, if he only does 1a and goes afk. But you're right and it has been said so often already. To be really viable on Pro level, it needs a little TvP only buff (like Tanks doing more damage to shields or so).
This is an amazing mech TvP between Dayshi and Harstem.
Dayshi has the newest mech build that no one knows before. It works like a miracle.
But he still got destroyed by pure immortal.
If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position.
Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions.
And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you.
May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"?
Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army.
On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage.
As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors.
As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in.
Apparently you didn't read the part where I state that you can (and you should) make at least few Tanks to retain the range advantage. If you go Hellbat/Thor as a bulk of your army, it doesn't mean building Tanks is forbidden. 3-4 Tanks is enough to hold ground against Colossus/Stalkers or anything Protoss has to kite you with. But at the same time, you don't risk being overwhelmed by Zealots/Immortals/Archons so badly (you need Ghosts anyways, obviously). You don't risk being caught unsieged or surprised by air switch. Believe it or not, Thors do better than Tanks against Voidrays or Tempests. Also, you can repair Thors with SCVs whereas Tanks die instantly.
So by going Hellbat/Thor + few Tanks as a support instead of pure Hellbat/Tank, you have range advangate, more durable army, more mobility and at least some anti-air. Sounds good to me..
Well ok, you mentioned adding a few Tanks, while I was talking about this specific case of Bomber going pure Thor/Hellbat (without any Tanks). And please don't talk like I didn't know Tanks can't shoot up. I'm well aware of the fact that Thors are better against Voidrays/Tempests than Tanks. Actually, I usually add a few Thors to my Tank/Hellion/Hellbat army too, to have some anti-air and some beefiness, just like you would add a few Tanks for the range.
So the main question here would actually be "more Tanks or more Thors?" The answer is very clear: it depends Against a ground based Protoss, imo Tanks are better, because they melt the Protoss army way faster. Yes Thors can take more damage, but they also have to, because the Protoss army survives a lot longer and therefor does more damage to you. Against Skytoss certainly Thors are better for the obvious reason (above). In that case I'd also recommend to stop producing Hellions/Hellbats and get Widowmines from the reactored Faxes. But you'll have to get mass Vikings still. The most important part here is just the scouting. If you miss the Sky transition, you're quit much doomed either way.
I don't know man, I have lost countless times with well positioned Hellbat/Tank army to 1a from Protoss just like that. Protoss army melting to Tanks happen only if you somehow happen to have this perfect engagement (clumped deathball running into choke, everything EMPed, 20 Tanks sieged). I'd rather have more chances to win closely than trying to melt his army in 1 lucky engagement. Good Protoss players are not going to give you that perfect engagement anyways. But that might be just me. There are some good players that play Hellbat/Tank based mech (Strelok). All in all, I think mech is not far from being viable. If they lower armory cost, fix this Hellbat upgrades clusterfuck or just make mech somehow easier to play (as they said), we might see it in pro games finally.
Aye, that's right. I lost to quite a lot of 1a'ing of Protoss, too, but mainly when I played bio (I just don't have the multitasking for bio). At least with Tank/Hellion/Hellbat I have the feeling that I had a chance to win, if only I position better. Usually I can see my positioning mistakes in my replys right away, whereas with bio it was always more like I would have had to drop more/better, harass better, pull him more around, get some better small engagements, etc. just to have a small chance to win the inevitable big battle, if he only does 1a and goes afk. But you're right and it has been said so often already. To be really viable on Pro level, it needs a little TvP only buff (like Tanks doing more damage to shields or so).
Master Terran here. I have been playing around with Mech TvP for quite a while now. I have a question : my style relies heavily on Widow mines. Am I the only one using them ?
Basically, I use mass mines + tanks against most Protoss composition, and if they use colossy, I switch to tanks + vikings. I do build hellbats, but it seems really weird to me that most terrans just don't seem to rely on mines as much as I do. Why is that ?
Master Terran here. I have been playing around with Mech TvP for quite a while now. I have a question : my style relies heavily on Widow mines. Am I the only one using them ?
Basically, I use mass mines + tanks against most Protoss composition, and if they use colossy, I switch to tanks + vikings. I do build hellbats, but it seems really weird to me that most terrans just don't seem to rely on mines as much as I do. Why is that ?
Hmm, I have tried heavy WM playstyle, but the problem I usually run into is that mines either die too fast before even doing something, or they detonate on few Zealots randomly charging towards my Tanks and then there is just Immortals/Colossus left vs my Tanks and that means game over.
If you place your Mines too far away from your Tanks, Protoss will snipe them, or storm them. If you place them close to your Tanks, they will detonate and cause a lot of friendly fire, etc..
It just doesn't seem too reliable. But if you have great success with this strat in Masters, great. You might share some ideas here, maybe you do something differently. But for me, Mines stopped working as soon as I hit Master league.
How do you position your Mines, Tanks and Hellbats?
I can't say I have a great success with this style, but I really enjoy it and, most importantly, I feel like I have endless room for improvement.
What you are saying is correct. What I do is :
- Tanks and Hellbats are spread (not too much actually, I don't focus on that too much, since the most important part is the WM micro) - I use a small portion of my Widow Mines burrowed, just to scare the Protoss away - I keep a huge portion of my Mines in the back (near my tanks) - If the protoss manages to kill the defensive (burrowed mines), I replace them - My goal is to force the engagement (with Tanks and Hellbats getting closer to the Protoss army), and when it finally happens, I just rush with my mines (A LOT of them) and burrow while the Protoss tries to kill my Tanks/hellbats.
It's hard to explain, but I have some success with it, and most of all I think I can play on a equal footing with protoss lategame (I haven't played bio for ages...)
I am still learning and working on it though, I am not doing it nearly as well as I would like.
Another big thing :
With this style, I actually switch my army composition a lot. For exemple, if the engagement I just described was not good enough and the Protoss killed most of my army, usually I know that he won't have any observers with his counter-attack. So I just build a ton of mines (30+) and I'm safe again. Also, I play around a lot with banshee/vikings against colossus/HT/low stalkers comp. Sometimes, my army has no WM, but the next minute I have like 30.
Grubby just demonstrates perfectly the weakness of mech.
This is the second time you post some random TvP where Protoss player happen to outplay Terran going mech and state that those games demonstrate the biggest weakness of mech. Either be more specific, or don't do this. I could show you games where Terran wins going mech and say it demonstrates the biggest strength of mech. Could this be any less relevant?
99% of the mech TvP VODs in this thread is posted by me. And I have posted more than 100 VODs of Mech TvP. I can say no one has contributed more mech TvP VOD than me.
This is a resource thread, so I provide the VODs. The following was just my opinion. You don't need to accept it.
Sorry, may I ask why haven't you posted here VODs of Loner winning several matches with mech?
I am reluctant to post those games because they are on youku, which is a not a good website, and they are cast in Chinese. If you know other twitch or youtube links and cast in English, it would be great.
It would be pretty cool if they let the community know what is going on with mech...are they doing anything? Or are they content that the HOTS expansion that was meant to promote mech play has essentially done the opposite and deterred it even further?
A lot of players would like to hear something...anything...
A lot of Terrans would love to hear that they are working to make it viable (especially TvP).
Sincerely, Your entire Terran player base that bought HOTS.
I know that what I'm about to say isn't necessarily the answer you're looking for, but I thought I'd stop by and provide a little transparency on how we as a Community team operate in regards to feedback and balance concerns such as this. We are constantly compiling feedback found on the forums, fan sites, and communities like Reddit and Team Liquid and relaying the information to our development teams. While we may not have responses to provide for each of these threads, know that the development team talks about these things internally, weighs the pros and cons of potential changes to see how they might affect all matchups in the game, and analyzes the associated data on a daily basis. As soon as more information is available, rest assured that we'll provide an update either on the forums or in a blog post.
On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote: I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
2 out of 3 games Koreans have played mech were Tank based. The only player that has any sort of success with mech is playing Tank based (Strelok).
Thors can not cover any meaningful area, are slower then Tanks, rebuild slower and are countered by much the same units. They are a lot easier to use though. Mass Thor has 2 places: 1) all in timing attack 2) after you essentially win, late game 1a comp.
On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote: I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
2 out of 3 games Koreans have played mech were Tank based. The only player that has any sort of success with mech is playing Tank based (Strelok).
Thors can not cover any meaningful area, are slower then Tanks, rebuild slower and are countered by much the same units. They are a lot easier to use though. Mass Thor has 2 places: 1) all in timing attack 2) after you essentially win, late game 1a comp.
Usually I don't go over 8 tanks in TvP because I find it's too easy to get caught out of position and losing your entire army...but on the other hand Thors aren't very good until you have large numbers of them >.< I'm still not sure which is better but I find myself having more success with a Thor based army and playing for the really late game.
Strelok uses a lot of tanks but we have to keep in mind he's relies alot on timings, especially in the mid-game, in which case I think mass Tanks is better.
On August 10 2013 03:35 fried_rice wrote: What about getting both Thors and Tanks?
Usually I don't go over 8 tanks in TvP because I find it's too easy to get caught out of position and losing your entire army...but on the other hand Thors aren't very good until you have large numbers of them >.< I'm still not sure which is better but I find myself having more success with a Thor based army and playing for the really late game.
Strelok uses a lot of tanks but we have to keep in mind he's relies alot on timings, especially in the mid-game, in which case I think mass Tanks is better.
Thor Tank is worse than Hellbat Tank. They are mostly only useful when Protoss goes air. If Protoss is pure ground army, don't build thor.
Hellbat, tank, ghost is the standard, well-proven viable TvP mech composition, if Protoss goes ground. Some one add viking, some one add banshee, some one add raven to that ground army.
If Protoss goes air, the composition should be ghost, widow mine, thor, viking, raven.
On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote: I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
2 out of 3 games Koreans have played mech were Tank based. The only player that has any sort of success with mech is playing Tank based (Strelok).
Thors can not cover any meaningful area, are slower then Tanks, rebuild slower and are countered by much the same units. They are a lot easier to use though. Mass Thor has 2 places: 1) all in timing attack 2) after you essentially win, late game 1a comp.
The only player? <.<
As far as tournaments go i think so. Though i don't know how he's doing recently. I know you are doing great on ladder and i watch some of your VODS on youtube ♥, but it's not the same thing as tournaments.
On August 10 2013 03:35 fried_rice wrote: What about getting both Thors and Tanks?
Usually I don't go over 8 tanks in TvP because I find it's too easy to get caught out of position and losing your entire army...but on the other hand Thors aren't very good until you have large numbers of them >.< I'm still not sure which is better but I find myself having more success with a Thor based army and playing for the really late game.
Strelok uses a lot of tanks but we have to keep in mind he's relies alot on timings, especially in the mid-game, in which case I think mass Tanks is better.
All strategy does. Depending on what your build is and what you scout, sometimes you have to attack before you get 200/200. Mech is not "tower defense" like so many people treat it. Having the ability to punish economic greed or too fast tech or both, are aspects that have to be present in any mech build (unless you yorself are doing some sort of eco/ tech greed build), otherwise you end up playing 25+min games all the time regardless of what the opponent does.
This "tower defense" mentality in games also becomes very poor the better the opponents are because you give them to much time to pick you apart. A "insert league" Protoss will smash his head against a siege army behind a choke and rage quit that mech is IMBA good; a pro will pick you apart slowly but surely.
With that said, it is very hard to punish stuff from Protoss because of mech being bad/ immortal too good/ Browder hating on BW, etc.
On August 10 2013 03:35 fried_rice wrote: What about getting both Thors and Tanks?
Usually I don't go over 8 tanks in TvP because I find it's too easy to get caught out of position and losing your entire army...but on the other hand Thors aren't very good until you have large numbers of them >.< I'm still not sure which is better but I find myself having more success with a Thor based army and playing for the really late game.
Strelok uses a lot of tanks but we have to keep in mind he's relies alot on timings, especially in the mid-game, in which case I think mass Tanks is better.
Thor Tank is worse than Hellbat Tank. They are mostly only useful when Protoss goes air. If Protoss is pure ground army, don't build thor.
Hellbat, tank, ghost is the standard, well-proven viable TvP mech composition, if Protoss goes ground. Some one add viking, some one add banshee, some one add raven to that ground army.
If Protoss goes air, the composition should be ghost, widow mine, thor, viking, raven.
Even versus ground, a few (like 4) thors are always good to have for the tanking power (and thors + mass repair can save your ass more often than you think)
On August 10 2013 03:35 fried_rice wrote: What about getting both Thors and Tanks?
Usually I don't go over 8 tanks in TvP because I find it's too easy to get caught out of position and losing your entire army...but on the other hand Thors aren't very good until you have large numbers of them >.< I'm still not sure which is better but I find myself having more success with a Thor based army and playing for the really late game.
Strelok uses a lot of tanks but we have to keep in mind he's relies alot on timings, especially in the mid-game, in which case I think mass Tanks is better.
Thor Tank is worse than Hellbat Tank. They are mostly only useful when Protoss goes air. If Protoss is pure ground army, don't build thor.
Hellbat, tank, ghost is the standard, well-proven viable TvP mech composition, if Protoss goes ground. Some one add viking, some one add banshee, some one add raven to that ground army.
If Protoss goes air, the composition should be ghost, widow mine, thor, viking, raven.
Even versus ground, a few (like 4) thors are always good to have for the tanking power (and thors + mass repair can save your ass more often than you think)
I dont like it. It's worse than the tanking power of 3 hellbats and it's worse than the fire power of 2 tanks. All are same supply. If it's pure ground, I simply won't add a single thor.
Mech just simply does not work against a protoss player who knows wtf they're doing. You're putting urself at a huge disadvantage with siege tanks especially when protoss has mobile siege units that don't require siege time.
On August 10 2013 16:41 Nightsz wrote: Mech just simply does not work against a protoss player who knows wtf they're doing. You're putting urself at a huge disadvantage with siege tanks especially when protoss has mobile siege units that don't require siege time.
Yep the immortal is basically a mobile siege tank but 100 times better.
Immortal vs Tank
Same damage (50+5+5+5). 2 times faster attack speed. Don't need to siege.
On August 10 2013 16:41 Nightsz wrote: Mech just simply does not work against a protoss player who knows wtf they're doing. You're putting urself at a huge disadvantage with siege tanks especially when protoss has mobile siege units that don't require siege time.
Yep the immortal is basically a mobile siege tank but 100 times better.
Immortal vs Tank
Same damage (50+5+5+5). 2 times faster attack speed. Don't need to siege.
2 times the HP.
It's ridiculous.
This unit basically ruins the game.
Is there a specific reason, why you didn't mention the splash damage and the range of a sieged tank? Tanks and Immortals fill completely different roles. You can't compare them.
On August 10 2013 16:41 Nightsz wrote: Mech just simply does not work against a protoss player who knows wtf they're doing. You're putting urself at a huge disadvantage with siege tanks especially when protoss has mobile siege units that don't require siege time.
Yep the immortal is basically a mobile siege tank but 100 times better.
Immortal vs Tank
Same damage (50+5+5+5). 2 times faster attack speed. Don't need to siege.
2 times the HP.
It's ridiculous.
This unit basically ruins the game.
Is there a specific reason, why you didn't mention the splash damage and the range of a sieged tank? Tanks and Immortals fill completely different roles. You can't compare them.
Of course they fill different roles. One is a siege unit and the other is the counter...
On August 10 2013 16:41 Nightsz wrote: Mech just simply does not work against a protoss player who knows wtf they're doing. You're putting urself at a huge disadvantage with siege tanks especially when protoss has mobile siege units that don't require siege time.
Yep the immortal is basically a mobile siege tank but 100 times better.
Immortal vs Tank
Same damage (50+5+5+5). 2 times faster attack speed. Don't need to siege.
2 times the HP.
It's ridiculous.
This unit basically ruins the game.
Is there a specific reason, why you didn't mention the splash damage and the range of a sieged tank? Tanks and Immortals fill completely different roles. You can't compare them.
Of course they fill different roles. One is a siege unit and the other is the counter...
Then why do you go for a direct comparison of both of them ? Especially since it's totally unrealistic to have a direct immortal vs tank fight..?
and for nightsz : you should go on all these "is tvp mech viable" thread, there'll be tons of people like you to share your insane mech experience. This thread is about sharing stuff between people who want to do some serious things with mech
On August 10 2013 16:41 Nightsz wrote: Mech just simply does not work against a protoss player who knows wtf they're doing. You're putting urself at a huge disadvantage with siege tanks especially when protoss has mobile siege units that don't require siege time.
There is a reason when Mech players have to add Ghosts
They aren't that great against tempests (you know, mobile siege units that don't require siege time). Unless I scout it really early (which is hard if he hides it) that pretty much always kills me. To be fair, my TvP winrate is currently quite reasonable.
Now however TvZ. Zergs do still remember how to play against mech (unlike protoss), and the matchup is simply autoloss for me if my reaper/hellion/banshee harrasment doesn't kill their third + their natural mineral line + their army, which as you can imagine doesn't happen often.
Otherwise I am the rest of the game on the defensive due to mutas. Then the zerg happily expands and brings one of the many combinations which I cannot counter. Swarmhosts for one. If they stay in once place it is doable, but these days zergs figured out they also have legs and you can move them. One reposition missed and you lose a base. Pushing against swarmhosts with mech is not something I succeed at, they simply spawn locusts, unburrow, move back, and burrow again to spawn next wave. Add broods and your tanks need to be unsieged due to broodlings, at which point I simply get overrun. Or vipers, both with swarmhosts and ultras kill me.
And if I do move out before 200/200 my army simply gets smashed by zerg army, either roaches or ling/bling/muta.
I haven't played in a decent while due to being a) distracted by diffferent games (mainly red orchestra 2) and b) getting a bit bored with SC2, but what do you guys think about them fully merging all the upgrades again? Could it help make mech a little easier to play/more viable do you think due to easier late game transitions?
back in beta days, it was very strong in TvP. not sure nowwadays since many things have changed. Having 4 - 5 vikings with same upgrades as ur ground army is not bad tho
Well, imho a big problem for mech is a late scouted air transition of the opponent. With shared upgrades, it's much easier to react with Vikings, because you wouldn't have to upgrade them seperately anymore. A transition from Mech completely to Skyterran is not wise anymore since HotS I think.
It just won't buff mech at all, just "turtle with 3 tanks and HB/Thor to Raven/BC/Viking".
That's not mech nor even fun. It'll remove biovsmech in TvT. But make it Thor/HB into skyterran. It won't allow for any biomech comp. But lead to skyterran. It won't lead to mechvP or mechvZ more fun or viable, but a faster skytransition.
As long as a mech/biomech army can't push or do damage in midgame (if your opponnent isn't trhowing the game away) theses kinds of changes will just be meh.
I don't care if bio is removed from TvT, but it have to make Mech interesting and viable in other MU, or at least biomech comp. This change is just the worst thing they could think of.
Personally I like it, mainly for TvP where my vikings will be better and if I scout it an air transition a tad late I am not completely screwed (hopefully). Also just in general my mech upgrades will come out a bit faster since I also get at least 1 air attack upgrade before being 3/3 on mech generally.
TvZ a bit less, but still nice against broodlord switches, and of course if you get to it battlecruiser transitions.
TvT I don't expect much of a change regarding mech vs bio-mech. With bio-mech you also want to stay roughly equal with mech attack upgrades compared to the pure mech player. The plating upgrade was bigger there, since a mech player does get it pretty fast, while for a bio-mech player it is really low priority.
I got sick of losing TvP with bio today, so I tried out mech for fun and ended up winning quite easily. My opponent wasn't the greatest, though... Still, it was fun! Ended up tons of thors/vikings/hellbats vs. carriers/tempest/voids/immortals. Thors basically killed everything...
It'll be fun to try to incorporate ghosts/mines better in the future. Tanks seem pretty useless though. They really need to be buffed (supply down to 2, gas to 100 please!)
I am really having trouble with mech TvZ at high master. I want to make it work but always die to the smallest mistake, can anyone give me a tip on the following:
1) When facing swarmhosts, how many tanks should I get before going into ravens? I am never able to get a 4th base up, I dont have enough gas to have constant tank and raven production. I need to sit in 1 place and defend while he can take the entire map, also he can attack another base with faster units. If I leave tanks at each base I die to swarmhosts.
2) Zerg tech switches. So lets say I face roach hydra viper. Or swarmhosts. I get enough tanks, some vikings or ravens, depending. He attacks, we trade armies, I scan his rallypoint to see that he makes. I dont see anything except some hydras, so I remake tanks. It turns out he had 14 ultras in production and I flat out lose because I have not enough thors and some useless vikings and ravens. Or he can go muta, force thors, then into swarmhost, thors useless, forces tanks, then he uses spire to go broodlord and again my tanks are useless. This switching of tech is killing me so often.
Overall it is really frustrating to mech these days, mainly because swarmhosts make me have to turtle, not beeing able to take more bases while zerg takes the entire map and tech switches back and forth.
On August 16 2013 08:48 Aquila- wrote: I am really having trouble with mech TvZ at high master. I want to make it work but always die to the smallest mistake, can anyone give me a tip on the following:
1) When facing swarmhosts, how many tanks should I get before going into ravens? I am never able to get a 4th base up, I dont have enough gas to have constant tank and raven production. I need to sit in 1 place and defend while he can take the entire map, also he can attack another base with faster units. If I leave tanks at each base I die to swarmhosts.
2) Zerg tech switches. So lets say I face roach hydra viper. Or swarmhosts. I get enough tanks, some vikings or ravens, depending. He attacks, we trade armies, I scan his rallypoint to see that he makes. I dont see anything except some hydras, so I remake tanks. It turns out he had 14 ultras in production and I flat out lose because I have not enough thors and some useless vikings and ravens. Or he can go muta, force thors, then into swarmhost, thors useless, forces tanks, then he uses spire to go broodlord and again my tanks are useless. This switching of tech is killing me so often.
Overall it is really frustrating to mech these days, mainly because swarmhosts make me have to turtle, not beeing able to take more bases while zerg takes the entire map and tech switches back and forth.
1) Swarmhosts: All dependent on your economy. Mostly, Zergs tend to open Muta into Swarmhost to force as many Thors as possible. The number of Tanks is obviously a countermeasure to the amount of Swarmhost. As many Tanks as possible I say. When you transition to Ravens is, to me, not about Tank-count but rather about how many gases you are mining. Until you are on 4 bases, a Raven transition will limit any gas-required Factory production thus risking defeat against Swarmhost alone. My advice for you is to build as many Tanks as possible until you are safely on 4 base. At that point, you can trade away some supply for Ravens.
2) Tech switches is the bane of mech, but whether he builds Ultra och Roach/Hydra should not really be a big deal for you. While mech is a rather passive playstyle until you have established a minimum of 3 (preferably 4) bases, you shouldn't let him amass a critical amount of gas. Winning a fight matters not if he can remax in a different tech right after (mass muta or mass ultra are generally the most feared options). You need to learn how to count and plan your game after that.
If the game is 30-35 ingame minutes in and you just fought for the first time with his hydra/roach army. You won convincingly, what do you do? Unsieging and a-moving across the map is likely the last thing you want to do. At that point, you need to realise that he has banked a SERIOUS amount of gas (5k perhaps) and you can expect an instant maxout incoming. At that point you might want to take another base perhaps or send a small force to take out his 6th base or something like that. The longer you let him accumulate gas, the more scary his remax might become. For this reason, I don't play passive and instead play aggressive until he has enough Swarmhost to force me to bunker down.
Ultras you can manage with building placements. Frankly, I don't recall the last time I lost to Ultras. A Muta remax? Well that's tricky. You really need 3-4 Thors in any mech composition and you should already have upgraded range + armour on buildings so that you can throw up an abundance of turrets if required. Scanning is key, the sooner you know - the better. Realise that if he builds 30-35 Mutas after you win a fight, then his gas supply is likely diminished significantly - if you defeat that Muta number, he might just be out of gas after that.
On August 16 2013 08:48 Aquila- wrote: I am really having trouble with mech TvZ at high master. I want to make it work but always die to the smallest mistake, can anyone give me a tip on the following:
1) When facing swarmhosts, how many tanks should I get before going into ravens? I am never able to get a 4th base up, I dont have enough gas to have constant tank and raven production. I need to sit in 1 place and defend while he can take the entire map, also he can attack another base with faster units. If I leave tanks at each base I die to swarmhosts.
2) Zerg tech switches. So lets say I face roach hydra viper. Or swarmhosts. I get enough tanks, some vikings or ravens, depending. He attacks, we trade armies, I scan his rallypoint to see that he makes. I dont see anything except some hydras, so I remake tanks. It turns out he had 14 ultras in production and I flat out lose because I have not enough thors and some useless vikings and ravens. Or he can go muta, force thors, then into swarmhost, thors useless, forces tanks, then he uses spire to go broodlord and again my tanks are useless. This switching of tech is killing me so often.
Overall it is really frustrating to mech these days, mainly because swarmhosts make me have to turtle, not beeing able to take more bases while zerg takes the entire map and tech switches back and forth.
1) Swarmhosts: All dependent on your economy. Mostly, Zergs tend to open Muta into Swarmhost to force as many Thors as possible. The number of Tanks is obviously a countermeasure to the amount of Swarmhost. As many Tanks as possible I say. When you transition to Ravens is, to me, not about Tank-count but rather about how many gases you are mining. Until you are on 4 bases, a Raven transition will limit any gas-required Factory production thus risking defeat against Swarmhost alone. My advice for you is to build as many Tanks as possible until you are safely on 4 base. At that point, you can trade away some supply for Ravens.
2) Tech switches is the bane of mech, but whether he builds Ultra och Roach/Hydra should not really be a big deal for you. While mech is a rather passive playstyle until you have established a minimum of 3 (preferably 4) bases, you shouldn't let him amass a critical amount of gas. Winning a fight matters not if he can remax in a different tech right after (mass muta or mass ultra are generally the most feared options). You need to learn how to count and plan your game after that.
If the game is 30-35 ingame minutes in and you just fought for the first time with his hydra/roach army. You won convincingly, what do you do? Unsieging and a-moving across the map is likely the last thing you want to do. At that point, you need to realise that he has banked a SERIOUS amount of gas (5k perhaps) and you can expect an instant maxout incoming. At that point you might want to take another base perhaps or send a small force to take out his 6th base or something like that. The longer you let him accumulate gas, the more scary his remax might become. For this reason, I don't play passive and instead play aggressive until he has enough Swarmhost to force me to bunker down.
Ultras you can manage with building placements. Frankly, I don't recall the last time I lost to Ultras. A Muta remax? Well that's tricky. You really need 3-4 Thors in any mech composition and you should already have upgraded range + armour on buildings so that you can throw up an abundance of turrets if required. Scanning is key, the sooner you know - the better. Realise that if he builds 30-35 Mutas after you win a fight, then his gas supply is likely diminished significantly - if you defeat that Muta number, he might just be out of gas after that.
I say don't even get yourself in that sort of situation. I play a very proactive mech. As in, I heavily emphasize banshees. 14CC to hellion banshee into fast 3rd CC is my goto TvZ build. I can 50/50 cancel their third if they only make ling's and queens. If they go roach, I am free to expand early because muta will come waay later. I always take the aggressive 3rd with a PF., and take a super fast 4th around 15 minutes (orbital). Constantly fighting in small engagements coming out 400 resources ahead each fight, until my 4base deathball is at a perfect composition.
So I've narrowed down my playstyle for mutas and mass roach/roach hydra. For mutas, always do a timing. HOTS mech vs Muta baneling is way easier. You won't win any battles decisively, but each engagement will always cost zerg more. Keep your first 3 banshees alive they will be invaluable. Start building medivacs. What I love to do is the Ironic drop: 1. WALK 6 to 7 hellbats their 4th while its building. They will send either all their roaches or a big part of their army. 2. Drop 2 thors and 3 banshees and run all your remaining hellions to the third. Try to pick off the third. If you can't, you can boost away. If they have mutas, sac your thors and get a couple of muta kills. Keep the banshees alive cause you ain't building any more of them 3 banshees are perfect at denying 4th's and 5th's. If the mutas go after the thors, your helions are still at their 3rd killing a huge amount of tech.
The thing with swarmhosts is that they need a solid economy or else you can just walk around the swarmhosts and do an all in with SCV's while having 4 tanks, turrets plus engineering bay wall to defend your production. While their swarmhosts are too far up to defend their bases. If they leave their swarmhosts, pull your banshees and watch them suffer. Banshees>>>>>swarmhosts. Always get cloak.
Always do a prehive timing with ~30 SCV's no matter what their composition. Split off 10-20 supply to hit their most recent/unprotected expansion. You will be floating minerals, you want to make the prehive timing do as much damage as possible. Your macro OC's should finish around the time hive is done anyways, so that you clear up supply for 170 food army. Either they will lose a base before getting hive, or they try to split their army for each of your forces and fight 2 horrible engagements, or try to tackle one before the other.
If they tackle your antibase squad (2 medivacs with thors, banshees, and hellbats). Boost the medivacs with thors and run back as far as you can, so your main army can walk all the way to their 3rd across the map unscathed.
If they go for your main army. Snipe a hatch, then go to the main and kill all their hive tech structures, if you can get to the spire (probably at natural) and snipe it, easy easy win after that.
The trick is always to expand as early as the zerg, and always be aggressive.
Yeonsu: looks good for mech; EDIT: NVM, ITS FUCKING HORRIBLE
Frost: Veto'd after a single match (TvZ), this map seems very stupid and very hard to play mech on; Polar Night: Not sure about this one, it seems to have potential but I'm scared of blink allins on it;
I wanna know what the high level mechers have to say about this.
EDIT: Ok, so it looks like all these new maps are all very anti-mech/anti-terran, veto'd them all.
I hope they could push the mech patch (combining +1 air mech weapons with ground) the same way they pushed the overseer patch earlier. The easily abused shortcomings of mech should have been addressed at the beginning of HotS since their intentions was to strengthen mech afterall.
I have somehow figured mech in TvP, at least now I can go head-to-head against their deathball provided I have the right units. The problem now is mech TvZ where i'm going up against the faster ling/bling/muta. Although, we have widow mines and thors, I still feel they are not enough. As opposed to bio+mine which is not vulnerable to mutas.
On August 27 2013 17:59 fried_rice wrote: What do you think of the new season maps guys???
Yeonsu: looks good for mech; EDIT: NVM, ITS FUCKING HORRIBLE
Frost: Veto'd after a single match (TvZ), this map seems very stupid and very hard to play mech on; Polar Night: Not sure about this one, it seems to have potential but I'm scared of blink allins on it;
I wanna know what the high level mechers have to say about this.
EDIT: Ok, so it looks like all these new maps are all very anti-mech/anti-terran, veto'd them all.
High-Master/GM Terran here. Haven't had a chance to play much at all, but I've checked out the maps.
Polar Night: Definitely a keeper. While it might prompt some blink all-ins, it is actually one of the easiest maps to defend a blink all in on. Since the base is so narrow you can just a couple of tanks at your main CC and you will be able to fire everywhere. This map has a really easy third and a semi-easy 4th and that's really all you can ask for. There are some pathways but the map is actually not too open which means you don't have to risk being surrounded too easily. The rocks on the third shouldn't encumber you as much as it will Zergs and Protosses.
Yeonsu: This, however, is a map where a blink all-in will be very difficult to defend without serious losses. The map itself is very open which is bad for mech. This is an instant downvote for any mecher.
Frost: Tied with Yeonsu for the worst of them all. While the map can be navigated with a mech army, you basically need a planetary for both the third and the fourth to have a chance to keep them. Mech without 6+ gases is very weak and there are like.. 5 pathways to defend if you want to grab a 4th on this map.
To sum up - for this season I intend to veto Yeonsu/Frost and Whirlwind.
I'm mid master meching Terran on EU and I just can't get all this theory into my games working when I play really decent player that knows how to abuse their units and mechanics. I think I have very solid layed down builds, but it just seems very uphill battle from a certain point in game where P and Z start to throw at you superior economy due to them realizing you are playing mech.
What's the most popular channel in game for people to strategize, watch replays together, and just hang out? I've been in HTOmario's channel "TheLocalFactory", and "Meching to Masters", but I almost never see anyone in chat. Is there another channel that people use?
After playing full on mech at a low masters level since the end of WOL and all of HOTS I gave up on meching to learn bio because it was getting frustrating at times because it feels so unforgiving.
As a lot of meching players I don't stellar APM, and playing bio it just seems that bio can be sooo much more powerful than mech but only if you're really fast, it's like the game is like 70%~80% mechanics and it kind of pisses me off as I don't get to do any different stuff. Like every game that I lose I load up the replay and I instantly know why I lost: my multitasking or APM wasn't up to par and that's it.
It's kind of fun and all, being cute with drops, having a really mobile army (damn mech is slooooooooow) but it's just getting old very fast. I'm sitting on mid diamond with my bio account, but I'm just so very inconsistent(lack of experience, few games played), when doing placements I beat a masters protoss but lost to a gold zerg.
After this ~100game experience I think I want to go back to meching, sure it's "weaker" but I get to do my own BOs, don't have to keep up with the metagame/trends and I get to use units other than Marines and I also get to experience more "strategy" than "real time", since my game sense was always much better than my mechanics.
That was my rant guys, thanks to anyone who read it.
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
Well, due to mech (and the overall game) terrible state, basically decided few weeks ago to totally stop any serious attempt at playing sc2. Since i got a new connection allowing me to stream since then, i want to try one last time to get back motivation by streaming but well, i don't even want to start the game...
I mech every MU at high Masters and stream most of my games.
I agree that mech is in an awful state at the moment though. The Hellbat nerf killed most openers, and with Protoss learning how to use the Mcore, fast Robo and Tempests, and Zergs learning how to build Swarm Hosts and Vipers, it's no surprise that we haven't seen a TvP or TvZ mech game in a major tournament for many months. I doubt we'll ever see it recover at the pro level without a significant buff.
That said, in the real world where we play, I think people really need to start learning how to integrate Ravens into their play. HSM ignores hardened shields and Blinding Cloud, massacres clumped up units, and can 1-shot clumped up Swarm Hosts, while PDD negates Tempest, Hydra and Corruptor fire. And auto-turets aren't bad for harassment either.
A significant Raven count is the only way to get around all the units that hard-counter mech in the late game. Whether you'd still consider it 'mech' is another matter..
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
I need some fresh mech BOs to start again.
Well you can't blame them for not Meching so often anymore in TvP. I mean it's possible to go mech in TvP but it's so easily stopped with a couple of Immortals that it discourages them to the point where it's like banging your head against a wall.
I've only come to see Dzerzhinsky and avilo these days going Mech but after that...it's pretty much a dead play style
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
Well, due to mech (and the overall game) terrible state, basically decided few weeks ago to totally stop any serious attempt at playing sc2. Since i got a new connection allowing me to stream since then, i want to try one last time to get back motivation by streaming but well, i don't even want to start the game...
This is very sad news =[ it's that kind of feeling that made me want to try out bio in the first place, that and the new maps in the pool
On September 22 2013 00:37 Dzerzhinsky wrote: I mech every MU at high Masters and stream most of my games.
I agree that mech is in an awful state at the moment though. The Hellbat nerf killed most openers, and with Protoss learning how to use the Mcore, fast Robo and Tempests, and Zergs learning how to build Swarm Hosts and Vipers, it's no surprise that we haven't seen a TvP or TvZ mech game in a major tournament for many months. I doubt we'll ever see it recover at the pro level without a significant buff.
That said, in the real world where we play, I think people really need to start learning how to integrate Ravens into their play. HSM ignores hardened shields and Blinding Cloud, massacres clumped up units, and can 1-shot clumped up Swarm Hosts, while PDD negates Tempest, Hydra and Corruptor fire. And auto-turets aren't bad for harassment either.
A significant Raven count is the only way to get around all the units that hard-counter mech in the late game. Whether you'd still consider it 'mech' is another matter..
Hey man, I've watched your stream before, good stuff, it's one of the things that might motivate me to even keep playing, although sometimes it pains me to see you being abused by players that are good at exploiting mech's flaws (which isnt even very hard)
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
I need some fresh mech BOs to start again.
Well you can't blame them for not Meching so often anymore in TvP. I mean it's possible to go mech in TvP but it's so easily stopped with a couple of Immortals that it discourages them to the point where it's like banging your head against a wall.
I've only come to see Dzerzhinsky and avilo these days going Mech but after that...it's pretty much a dead play style
Maybe me personally, but my TvZ mech win ratio has been at 0% for months now (literally 0%, not almost, I simply autolose every single game vs zerg where I don't cheese them). While TvP mech still works for me. Granted largely due to protoss players not knowing how to deal with mech, and sure part of it will be that for some reason I simply am not able to beat zerg players, but I do think TvZ is at least as big as a problem as TvP for mech currently.
Even if they don't simply kill me with vipers and/or swarmhosts they simply walk over me with ultralisks. If I beat the ultralisks they simply send in a second wave, since there is little reason for them not to mass expand over the entire map. And ravens are also beyond horrible against ultras (they prolly deal more friendly fire than enemy fire when using seekers on ultras).
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
I need some fresh mech BOs to start again.
Well you can't blame them for not Meching so often anymore in TvP. I mean it's possible to go mech in TvP but it's so easily stopped with a couple of Immortals that it discourages them to the point where it's like banging your head against a wall.
I've only come to see Dzerzhinsky and avilo these days going Mech but after that...it's pretty much a dead play style
Maybe me personally, but my TvZ mech win ratio has been at 0% for months now (literally 0%, not almost, I simply autolose every single game vs zerg where I don't cheese them). While TvP mech still works for me. Granted largely due to protoss players not knowing how to deal with mech, and sure part of it will be that for some reason I simply am not able to beat zerg players, but I do think TvZ is at least as big as a problem as TvP for mech currently.
Even if they don't simply kill me with vipers and/or swarmhosts they simply walk over me with ultralisks. If I beat the ultralisks they simply send in a second wave, since there is little reason for them not to mass expand over the entire map. And ravens are also beyond horrible against ultras (they prolly deal more friendly fire than enemy fire when using seekers on ultras).
Ultras are pretty damn hard to beat. You need to get perfect engagements every time or make him attack into you when ur walled off with PFs and Barracks.
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
I need some fresh mech BOs to start again.
Well you can't blame them for not Meching so often anymore in TvP. I mean it's possible to go mech in TvP but it's so easily stopped with a couple of Immortals that it discourages them to the point where it's like banging your head against a wall.
I've only come to see Dzerzhinsky and avilo these days going Mech but after that...it's pretty much a dead play style
Maybe me personally, but my TvZ mech win ratio has been at 0% for months now (literally 0%, not almost, I simply autolose every single game vs zerg where I don't cheese them). While TvP mech still works for me. Granted largely due to protoss players not knowing how to deal with mech, and sure part of it will be that for some reason I simply am not able to beat zerg players, but I do think TvZ is at least as big as a problem as TvP for mech currently.
Even if they don't simply kill me with vipers and/or swarmhosts they simply walk over me with ultralisks. If I beat the ultralisks they simply send in a second wave, since there is little reason for them not to mass expand over the entire map. And ravens are also beyond horrible against ultras (they prolly deal more friendly fire than enemy fire when using seekers on ultras).
I'm just Gold, but this is what works for me in Mech v Zerg. I'm playing a 2 base push (Tank, BF-Hellion, Marine) that sometimes kills their 3rd or at least makes them build a ton of units to hold it. During that I'm preparing for BF-Hellbat drops and, when the push is done, I go roast some drones with them. Zerg usually wants to drone up after such a big fight, so it usually criples their eco. This should stop them from expanding all over the map, slows down their Hive and more importantly they have to choose, if they go Ultra, Swarmhost OR Broodlord, instead of being able to have all and techswitch you to death. When BF-Hellbat drops don't work anymore, try BF-Hellion runbys. Even with Mech, you can't sit on your fingers that much anymore. It's not as demanding as with Bio, but you still have to keep the Zerg busy.
Against Ultras (and Swarmhosts too btw) I'd recommend adding Banshees instead of Ravens. Also go with less Tanks and more Thors to compensate for the lack of anti-air of the Banshees (in case of techswitches). Thors are also too fat to clump that much, so the "splash" of the Ultras isn't that much of an issue. Try to fight in chokes. When all your Tanks, Thors and Banshees can fire at once, while the Ultras try to climb over each other to get to something to cut to pieces, you should be ok. Also, if your tanks are not sieged, when the fight begins, don't siege them. Ultras are too big for the splash to do much (not even speaking about friendly fire) and the 4 seconds siege-up time can cost you battles.
The problem with Banshees is upgrades, past early game they won't do shit against combat units, they are only good at sniping workers and unprotected bases. So unless you're doing some sort of skyterran builds that gets fast +ship attack (or it's super late game and you can afford it), Banshee is not the answer, although having up to 3 can be really useful for general harassment and map control, if you manage to keep them alive they can be very good to snipe workers, or force zerg's mutalisks out of position.
They do shit DPS against units with armor upgrades, especially against ultras, if they merged the attack upgrades at the Armory I think it woul help mech a ton and make Banshees actually useful as a combat unit, and even then, Zerg will have either spores, hydra or corruptor with his SHs.
I've been opening a lot with Hellion/Banshee, I have frost/whirlwind and derelict watcher veto'd, so I only play maps that are hard for Zerg to take a third, making this opening very powerful.
And yeah, against Ultras you need very good positioning or you will flat out lose the game instantly. The hard thing about fighting Ultras vs a zerg with good eco is that winning engagements isn't as significant as winning against other unit comps because Ultras are so supply effective.
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
I need some fresh mech BOs to start again.
Well you can't blame them for not Meching so often anymore in TvP. I mean it's possible to go mech in TvP but it's so easily stopped with a couple of Immortals that it discourages them to the point where it's like banging your head against a wall.
I've only come to see Dzerzhinsky and avilo these days going Mech but after that...it's pretty much a dead play style
Maybe me personally, but my TvZ mech win ratio has been at 0% for months now (literally 0%, not almost, I simply autolose every single game vs zerg where I don't cheese them). While TvP mech still works for me. Granted largely due to protoss players not knowing how to deal with mech, and sure part of it will be that for some reason I simply am not able to beat zerg players, but I do think TvZ is at least as big as a problem as TvP for mech currently.
Even if they don't simply kill me with vipers and/or swarmhosts they simply walk over me with ultralisks. If I beat the ultralisks they simply send in a second wave, since there is little reason for them not to mass expand over the entire map. And ravens are also beyond horrible against ultras (they prolly deal more friendly fire than enemy fire when using seekers on ultras).
Ultras are pretty damn hard to beat. You need to get perfect engagements every time or make him attack into you when ur walled off with PFs and Barracks.
Hmm, in my experience, Ultras are not a problem at all. Just focus fire them with your Tank/Thor force and they drop like flies. You need to watch out not to get surrounded and as long as you prevent this from happening, you will come out ahead with supply lead.
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
Then again with HTs on the side of the tempests they do. And no matter how much I respect your mech abilities, a 'few' vikings do not counter tempests. The main problem is also how idiotic little supply tempests take, if they change that to 6 I would be alot happier. For me also the problem against HT + tempests is the difference in micro required, which isn't my strongest point.With HTs/ghosts added you have the issue his army is alot more flexible than yours. Also his micro (at my level at least) is pretty much a-moving his tempests and micro'ing his templars: storming and feedbacking everything he sees. Meanwhile I have to drop new PDDs closer with ravens, and mostly try to EMP his army while at the same time dodging storms with vikings. And once I start trying to dodge storms there really won't be going of new EMPs until he runs out of storms. And with the range of tempests it is unlikely you manage to snipe/emp HTs before the fight.
I at least have in all my mech games vs toss never been able to beat a late game mass tempest army. Mostly I lose, I have won a handfull times against it, but that was mainly due to bad handling by my opponent of me attacking his economy until even while horribly trading he simply couldn't make new tempests. But in the end imo 4 supply is too low.
Btw @ HTOMario, do you happen to have also some recent replays vs zerg? Overall I have something like 70% win rate vs toss, but only 30% vs zerg, and that is due to all-ins. Haven't won a long game vs zerg in 2 seasons .
On October 04 2013 15:17 Sissors wrote: Then again with HTs on the side of the tempests they do. And no matter how much I respect your mech abilities, a 'few' vikings do not counter tempests. The main problem is also how idiotic little supply tempests take, if they change that to 6 I would be alot happier. For me also the problem against HT + tempests is the difference in micro required, which isn't my strongest point.With HTs/ghosts added you have the issue his army is alot more flexible than yours. Also his micro (at my level at least) is pretty much a-moving his tempests and micro'ing his templars: storming and feedbacking everything he sees. Meanwhile I have to drop new PDDs closer with ravens, and mostly try to EMP his army while at the same time dodging storms with vikings. And once I start trying to dodge storms there really won't be going of new EMPs until he runs out of storms. And with the range of tempests it is unlikely you manage to snipe/emp HTs before the fight.
I at least have in all my mech games vs toss never been able to beat a late game mass tempest army. Mostly I lose, I have won a handfull times against it, but that was mainly due to bad handling by my opponent of me attacking his economy until even while horribly trading he simply couldn't make new tempests. But in the end imo 4 supply is too low.
Btw @ HTOMario, do you happen to have also some recent replays vs zerg? Overall I have something like 70% win rate vs toss, but only 30% vs zerg, and that is due to all-ins. Haven't won a long game vs zerg in 2 seasons .
I don't feel like scouted tempests are a problem and i've won game where it's bc raven ghost viking vs tempest carrier HT.
On October 04 2013 15:17 Sissors wrote: Then again with HTs on the side of the tempests they do. And no matter how much I respect your mech abilities, a 'few' vikings do not counter tempests. The main problem is also how idiotic little supply tempests take, if they change that to 6 I would be alot happier. For me also the problem against HT + tempests is the difference in micro required, which isn't my strongest point.With HTs/ghosts added you have the issue his army is alot more flexible than yours. Also his micro (at my level at least) is pretty much a-moving his tempests and micro'ing his templars: storming and feedbacking everything he sees. Meanwhile I have to drop new PDDs closer with ravens, and mostly try to EMP his army while at the same time dodging storms with vikings. And once I start trying to dodge storms there really won't be going of new EMPs until he runs out of storms. And with the range of tempests it is unlikely you manage to snipe/emp HTs before the fight.
I at least have in all my mech games vs toss never been able to beat a late game mass tempest army. Mostly I lose, I have won a handfull times against it, but that was mainly due to bad handling by my opponent of me attacking his economy until even while horribly trading he simply couldn't make new tempests. But in the end imo 4 supply is too low.
Btw @ HTOMario, do you happen to have also some recent replays vs zerg? Overall I have something like 70% win rate vs toss, but only 30% vs zerg, and that is due to all-ins. Haven't won a long game vs zerg in 2 seasons .
I don't feel like scouted tempests are a problem and i've won game where it's bc raven ghost viking vs tempest carrier HT.
If I scout it when his stargates go up I have no problem with it, but how do you make sure you scout it at that point? I regulary scan the toss's main, but if he has 3 stargates being chronoboosted producing tempests in a third/edge of main then he can easily have 6 tempests before I scout it.
That is also the idea/problem I personally have with BCs. Sure it works fine as long as you are ahead of the enemy in production, but if you try to switch to BCs when he already started his tempest production I only see horrible dead in my future. And it makes my micro deficit only worse: tempest carrier HTs means pretty much he can a-move his air units and micro his HTs. While if you go BC you need to cast yamato's once energy is available for them, ravens should drop PDDs. Ghosts need to emp/snipe HTs, and vikings need to dodge storms. Now I freely admit part of the issue is that my micro isn't good in such situations (okay most situations outside stopping 8/8 reapers). But still at my level there is so much more micro I have to do than my opponent that I just have no chance in hell against such an army in a direct fight.
Edit: Watched it. Quite a different composition from what I generally use, so probably there my mistake is (much heavier on widow mines).
Still lets say in your initial attack he would have had a ling on the highground on the top attack path. He would have scouted your army, you wouldn't have known it. Since you also didn't scan or anything, couldn't he then have really easily killed your entire army with tanks unsieged and widow mines unburrowed? Also did you know he didn't have mutas left? Because the position your tanks were sieged was very good against a ground army, but half your siege tanks could have been taken out if he still had mutas for barely any muta losses.
In the end it also looked to me like you traded fairly inefficient in every fight. Only you were so far ahead after his failed basetrade that it didn't matter anymore.
On October 06 2013 21:39 Maler wrote: Maler, now masterleague full meching terran here.
How do you guys open TvP ?
Would like to hear if any of you have some creative builds for that match up
I've crafted my own build that works for me very well. It is just a solid build overall, not too greedy, not too safe. Going to share it here so that you can try it out or maybe suggest some improvements.
Basically goes like this:
1) Rax (3 Marines, then hold), gas, factory -> CC on high ground -> 2nd gas + continue Marine production 2) @100% factory make tech lab -> Siege Tank 3) @100 gas -> Starport 4) @100%Tank -> leave tech lab for Starport and make 2 wm (or hellion for scouting) from Factory 5) @100% Starport -> attach to tech lab from Factory -> Raven 6) @100% Raven -> Factory goes back to tech lab -> 2nd Siege Tank, Starport can produce Medivac for drop, Banshee for extra safety/harass/scouting, Viking or just nothing to free up resources for upgrades or faster 3rd CC
This gives you detection, fast tank, 2 wm and at least 5 Marines (you can pump as many as you want) and you can move out with this force to secure your natural..
From this point, depending on what you scout, you can increase your production and add 2 more factories, or go for fast upgrades with 1 or 2 armories or even throw in 3rd CC if you feel safe enough.
2WM, Raven, Siege Tank, bunker and cca 5-10 Marines + wall is enough to hold your natural basically against anything. I like to go up to 4 Tanks, then add Thors/Hellbats and secure my 3rd.
Problem is i like the hellbat tank style more, and if you open the way you do it leans more towards the tech heavy style of mech. But ill try it again in some games
On October 07 2013 17:30 Maler wrote: Ive tried doing the exact same build as you
Problem is i like the hellbat tank style more, and if you open the way you do it leans more towards the tech heavy style of mech. But ill try it again in some games
Yeah, that is the style I like because I find it really hard to compete with pure power of Immortals and gateway production. I also hate Tanks being dead supply should he go for Tempests. But Hellbat/Tank + Ghosts style works very well as well (see Strelok).
Hopefully something good can come out of this new patch (at least Tempests won't be that scary so I think Hellbat/Tank style could be a bit better here).
On October 07 2013 17:30 Maler wrote: Ive tried doing the exact same build as you
Problem is i like the hellbat tank style more, and if you open the way you do it leans more towards the tech heavy style of mech. But ill try it again in some games
I fell back to diamond this season, haven't had the time to grind enough games to get back into masters just yet, I have 70% win rate and I'm playing mostly against Masters so I should be back there soon. With that in mind...
One of my favorite openings in TvP is gas first into fast reactor hellions, I mostly use it on 2 player maps. It goes like:
11gas 12 (or 13 for a more eco oriented BO) rax scout @ 14 supply, or a bit earlier in 4 player maps @100%rax - OC make a marine if you're being probe scouted, otherwise go straight into reactor+factory 2nd depot only after factory started building @100% factory - 2 hellions/startport/2nd gas @100% starport - dropship
Rally your first 2 hellions into his main, use them to scout his tech (if he's going blink or DT, his twilight council should be building, standard robo should be on the way as well, you also get to see if he expanded or not). You can also sac them to kill probes if you think you can get a worth trade, but favor getting the Hellions out alive if you can't kill like 5 or more probes.
After the first 2 hellions I like to queue up 2 widow mines, they'll be just in time to defend oracle play or msc/stalker poke, if you see MSC/stalker/zealot coming your way with your hellions, just run past it, he'll either have to pullback to defend or he'll try to hit your main anyway, in which case you can hold just fine with the 2 widow mines at the ramp + repair at the front.
After the initial 2 hellion poke, I like to do a follow up drop with 2hellions+2wm. Since most Protoss play so greedy these days, I get a lot of free wins with the initial poke+drop, in fact when I do this build I win outright half of the times in less than 9 minutes. That being sad, this build can transition just fine into macro games even if you don't manage to kill a lot of probes (you'll always get at the mininum a couple), it's important that you keep your units alive and always react properly. After your drop you should be expanding and adding another factory for tanks ASAP and a bunker. Some protoss players like to counter pressure you, especially if they suffered heavy eco damage, and the counter push can just straight up kill you if you're not prepared.
It's important to react correctly to what you see with your first 2 hellions, like adding another factory+tlab for Tanks if you suspect 1 base blink-allin or some sort of heavy agression.
I really like this build, I've learned the ins and outs of it and I feel safe using it even if I don't end up doing the planned economic damage and get a later natural. A lot of things about mech are about mind games, and this kind of build will throw your opponent off from the very beggining, and this type of "indirect damage" is also good. After your initial drop and expo you have a lot of options, you can get a factory for tanks, go into cloak banshees, a raven..or w/e. I feel it's a solid overall build.
So what do you guys think of mech at the moment? Likeup to what skill level can you play it and besuccesfulwith it. Im mainly a bio player apart from TvT but really want to know if I could mix it in in a boX and it would be viable. I like to suprise my friends and I quite like building huge siege tank lines :D
On October 13 2013 08:06 GumBa wrote: So what do you guys think of mech at the moment? Likeup to what skill level can you play it and besuccesfulwith it. Im mainly a bio player apart from TvT but really want to know if I could mix it in in a boX and it would be viable. I like to suprise my friends and I quite like building huge siege tank lines :D
I'm a Masters mech player who decided to try my hand at bio recently, I got to top diamond on EU and NA and went back to meching, my MMR is back into Masters according to SC2gears so I should be re-promoted soon, here's my take on it:
Mech plays like a whole different race from standard terran bio, it's not something that you can easily pick-up from a couple of build orders and implement it into your gameplay very easily. There's a lot of nuances and midgames involved when you're playing mech that only extensive training can earn you. Everything plays out differently, when/where/how you expand, your windows of vulnerability are different, what you watch out for from your opponent. As mech you have to always be adjusting and fine tuning your unit composition, and due to the slow nature of its production, everything must be thought of ahead of time (whereas with you bio you already know pretty much what your composition and unit ratios are going to look like).
But on the other hand it's way easier mechanically, it's harder on your brain but way easier on your hands.
Honestly, I don't think it's a style for everyone and the adaption from mech to bio isn't something that occurs naturally as both are very different in nature. I don't recommend anyone on playing mech unless you are very passionate about it as it can be quite frustrating.
Honestly as an old school BW player I'm only meching these days because of the hilarious rage it generates from shitty opponents and in hope that Blizzard will somehow improve it or at the very least not make it any worse in LOTV, as I really really dislike the way terran bio operates.
Hi Mario, in your guide 2.0 for TvP Mech you mentioned optimal lategame army would be 15 raven, 15 ghost, thors + filler units. In these replays I didn't see any ghosts. Is there a specific reason for dropping ghosts out of composition or do you have a trigger for when to make ghosts? When scouting mass immortal?
I want to try out mech again in TvP, but I can't quite read the games right. Diamond league player here. Thanks for sharing the replays!
Mario: I am interested to hear your thoughts about your game yesterday when you got crushed by mass immortals. Did he just scout you out without you knowing the transition was coming? Cause I know you use to beat that.
lets face that the reason mech occasionally succseeds is because opponents havent been playing against it enough. I can guarantee you that if everyone played mech players that go mech right now would lose 70% more games.
Against Bio, timings on forges, upgrades and expansions have been worked out. Just like someone mentioned before, against mech its more of : "Ill just get some of this, and some immortals, maybe ill expand now, maybe I should have made air" - and the sad thing is- it works out a lot.
someone who goes mech every game has a huge advantage in terms of knowing timings over your opponent.
On October 13 2013 23:33 weikor wrote: lets face that the reason mech occasionally succseeds is because opponents havent been playing against it enough. I can guarantee you that if everyone played mech players that go mech right now would lose 70% more games.
Against Bio, timings on forges, upgrades and expansions have been worked out. Just like someone mentioned before, against mech its more of : "Ill just get some of this, and some immortals, maybe ill expand now, maybe I should have made air" - and the sad thing is- it works out a lot.
someone who goes mech every game has a huge advantage in terms of knowing timings over your opponent.
Yes that is probably very true, but hopefully combined air and ground upgrades as well as a bigger tankbuff than planned (the currently planned buff doesnt do shit) can change that.
On October 13 2013 23:33 weikor wrote: lets face that the reason mech occasionally succseeds is because opponents havent been playing against it enough. I can guarantee you that if everyone played mech players that go mech right now would lose 70% more games.
Against Bio, timings on forges, upgrades and expansions have been worked out. Just like someone mentioned before, against mech its more of : "Ill just get some of this, and some immortals, maybe ill expand now, maybe I should have made air" - and the sad thing is- it works out a lot.
someone who goes mech every game has a huge advantage in terms of knowing timings over your opponent.
Yes that is probably very true, but hopefully combined air and ground upgrades as well as a bigger tankbuff than planned (the currently planned buff doesnt do shit) can change that.
I agree as well. There are just so many economical advantages for pro gamers to go bio that they can not take the risk of losing games trying mech. There are a few pro players that play extremely well with mech. mvp especially. Flash too (though Flash does not always play mech). TheStC. I remember when mvp raped Stephano in the wcs. And I remember several of mvp's games in the GSL where he was dominating sc2. Unfortunately right now bio is more popular. But I can see the advantages of the mech play. And I honestly think in the future we will see more mech players.
The CC first into Hellion-reactor banshee is an extremely powerful build. Given it is executed correctly. You saw Flash do it vs DRG in the first game Bo3 IEM New York.
Hey guys, Im having some trouble in late game TvZ with mech. Once i get past the 30 min mark some zergs like to just mass roach with 3/3. What unit compostition should i have? More thors or seige tanks? Seige tanks are a pain as im only diamond and i sometimes dont get my tanks seiged up b4 roaches charge in unexpectedly. So what unit composition works best against mass roach?
Also what is the best counter to mass ultras (once again past the 30 min mark).In this situation its often 5base terran vs 6+ base zerg (map dependant). I can win the first engagement easily but at this stage of the game zerg has so much gas inc they continually pump out ultras and i cant seem to trade cost efficiently against them. Once again, what unit comp should i have for this situation? Hevay thor or heavy seige tank?
On October 17 2013 10:21 AlaxWayLaxed wrote: Hey guys, Im having some trouble in late game TvZ with mech. Once i get past the 30 min mark some zergs like to just mass roach with 3/3. What unit compostition should i have? More thors or seige tanks? Seige tanks are a pain as im only diamond and i sometimes dont get my tanks seiged up b4 roaches charge in unexpectedly. So what unit composition works best against mass roach?
Also what is the best counter to mass ultras (once again past the 30 min mark).In this situation its often 5base terran vs 6+ base zerg (map dependant). I can win the first engagement easily but at this stage of the game zerg has so much gas inc they continually pump out ultras and i cant seem to trade cost efficiently against them. Once again, what unit comp should i have for this situation? Hevay thor or heavy seige tank?
I used to be Diamond until I stopped playing lots of 1v1, but I exclusively mech in TvZ, so what I'm trying to go for during all game is to be as tank-heavy as possible at all times! Of course that will not be an easy task to fulfill as you have to get constant information on the more or less exact unit compositon of your opponent -> tech he is going to get.
The reason is quite simple:
Usually less experienced players tend to go for ling/muta/bling instead of instantly reacting to your game plan, so the first thing to look out for are either really early busts which should reflectable with a few tanks and hellions or busts occurring later with roaches mixed in, way more difficult to hold if not perfectly prepared for it.
So if you're seeing mostly speedlings and no heavy roach production with your hellions/scan (of course depending on map you should constantly try to apply some pressure with at least some of your hellions since they are easily replacable and can keep your opponent in check while you adjust your unit comp or static defenses/take your third etc. in reaction of your scouting information. Usually lesser Zerg players tend to throw you off with mutalisks which I tend to counter with 2-4 thors, depending on his commitment, of course. Again, counter-harass with hellions can not only buy you tons of time to further tweak your mech ball, but also severely hurt your opponent if he doesn't defend properly.
So if you survived that or the Zerg decides to react properly to your unit comp, there's nothing better to be as tank-heavy as you can get - tanks simply WASTE roaches if you're sieged (so you have to plan ahead depending on map where you wan't to fight (usually I'd say it's way better to choose to fight on his terrain than on yours, time is a really important factor since our production is rather slow and you want him to defend rather than sending small chunks of roaches to your expansions), hellbats add nice damage and meatshield (a few medivacs help, too) to your tanks. In the end it really comes down to what he decides to throw at you during the game, be it roaches, hydras, vipers, mutas, swarm hosts, ultras and/or brood lords.
What I'm trying to do here is anticipate when a possible tech switch can/will happen to catch me off guard and adjust my composition, but for most Zerg compositions tanks are really good (roaches, hydras, swarm hosts, ultras), so if you tend to have as many tanks as his type of army allows you (during later stages of the game widow mines help you a lot to survive hard switches/protect your precious tanks).
Sorry for that long post, concluding I'd say: Tank > Thor in lots of regards
I know everything you just said...... So stick to tanks end game. Sweet as, dealing with vipers, spire tech and infestor tech is easy as, Just need to get more efficient in my matches so i can out trade zerg on large maps in long 30-1 hour games
I have been having troubles lately with 13-14min chargelot + either Immortal or or archon/ht timings with 2/2 upgrades. I can get my +1 attack or 1/1 at best if going 2 armory, but that makes me vulnerable to other earlier timings.
It is just so strong timing that not even wall + hellbats, few tanks and 1-2 Thors behind can't hold it.
I was thinking that going 2 armory to get as fast upgrades and producing maybe 1 or 2 rounds of Hellbats from tech-labbed factories could be the solution. Since those timings are incredibly chargelot heavy and I can't get enough high tech units in time to deal with it. Any ideas, replays or general advices?
On October 17 2013 15:40 AlaxWayLaxed wrote: I know everything you just said...... So stick to tanks end game. Sweet as, dealing with vipers, spire tech and infestor tech is easy as, Just need to get more efficient in my matches so i can out trade zerg on large maps in long 30-1 hour games
Exactly. Another good move is adding rather early Starport(s) and slowly buildig up a viking count, mix in maybe a raven or two, as it helps with mutas (less thors -> more tanks) and likely prevents him from teching to brood lords. If he then tries to outsmart you by building mass roaches or is doing a hard ultra switch, you can use these vikings to bust a base and/or hunt his overlords (if you find his overlord hangout spot, shouldn't be too hard ) -> buys you time, fucks up his remaxing, rendering his larvae temporarily useless, which can be key against roaches/ultras.
I was thinking that going 2 armory to get as fast upgrades and producing maybe 1 or 2 rounds of Hellbats from tech-labbed factories could be the solution. Since those timings are incredibly chargelot heavy and I can't get enough high tech units in time to deal with it. Any ideas, replays or general advices?
Yes, going for double armory upgrades with mech is great. Getting 3/3 at 15 mins can be so good when pushing out.If the zerg is slow on upgrades mech can be incredibly efficient in long drawn out battles with scv's repaiaring keeping your army alive and taking minal losses in each enagement. Its scary how strong mech can be against opponents not prepared for it.
Edit:+ if your early harrassmnet is very good you can easily afford it if you get lucky (aka kiiling 20 or so drones with some early hellions.)
I was thinking that going 2 armory to get as fast upgrades and producing maybe 1 or 2 rounds of Hellbats from tech-labbed factories could be the solution. Since those timings are incredibly chargelot heavy and I can't get enough high tech units in time to deal with it. Any ideas, replays or general advices?
Yes, going for double armory upgrades with mech is great. Getting 3/3 at 15 mins can be so good when pushing out.If the zerg is slow on upgrades mech can be incredibly efficient in long drawn out battles with scv's repaiaring keeping your army alive and taking minal losses in each enagement. Its scary how strong mech can be against opponents not prepared for it.
Edit:+ if your early harrassmnet is very good you can easily afford it if you get lucky (aka kiiling 20 or so drones with some early hellions.)
3/3 at 15 mins? That seems rather unrealistic.. Can you share some replay, or vod where someone does that? I myself can't get 3/3 faster then 17-18 mins (while having decent production to not die to any silly attack) and I start my armories even before 2nd and 3rd factory.
On October 17 2013 22:05 SC2Toastie wrote: Kollin, hi there!
Might I suggest we create a Mech Channel/Group in game to communicate more easilly :D?
Or maybe even a Skype channel!!? Anybody interested?
Uuu, seems cool, I would concider joining Mech channel and sharing ideas, replays, analyses, etc.. Skype is kinda no-no for me, since I use it a lot while working, so that would create many not wanted situations.. :D
Ok. I created a group called "Mech". on EU If there's enough demand for a Skype group we can add that too, you can PM me said information if you want to.
Im a newbie when it comes to mech (except tvt). Id appreciate some pointers. Im master normally but its all pretty new mechwise so Id say im diamondlevel as mech.
More specifiically I wonder what composition I should go for versus what units in tvz and tvp.
In tvz I either open for 1 rax cmd or FE depending on mapsize. In tvp I either open 11 gas 13 rax and take it from there or cc-first depending on map size. But Im not sure how many factories to build per base, when to start building ravens, when to put down the armory etc. heeelp
Things like this can go into the Mech channel too :D!
So, for starters, I assume you have the multitask, you'll want to learn the Hellion Banshee opener. Look for Flash vs DongRaeGu IEM NY Decider match 1/3. It shows you the Hellion Banshee opener vs Zerg, what to do and how to transition.
Vs Protoss, watch Strelok games, or the twitches of either Avilo (IF he speaks insightful, drops knowledge bombs all around) or HTOMario (Who Mines everything, but isn't as mechanically sound as Avilo is), the most notable mechers.
I feel like you can support ~2 factories per base + 1, but this does delay upgrades, expansions and your starport units.
Ravens when you are on 8gas. Armory depends on the build, really. vs Protoss Armor is not TOO important, so you can delay the second armory.
You'll struggle a lot in the beginning because you need to learn your unit counters again, you get surprised by silly shit, etc.
Small tip; with mech is it less terrible to sacrifice a lot of SCVs verse an all in, as the defensive power an established mech army has allows you to power again.
REMEMBER: You are no longer on a clock! In the long run YOU instead of the Z/P will have the stronger army!
A nice tvp build for against toss is a 1-1-1 bunker contain with marine tanks and raven. raven counters planatary nexus with pdd and having 2 bunkers with marines in it protecting your tanks is very good. When i do it successfully it allows me to get an easy 3base and delaying the toss natural. Its good as you have the units to deal with most toss openers eg early marines for proxy sg, raven for detection and tanks for defense.
3/3 at 15 mins? That seems rather unrealistic.. Can you share some replay, or vod where someone does that? I myself can't get 3/3 faster then 17-18 mins (while having decent production to not die to any silly attack) and I start my armories even before 2nd and 3rd factory.
Dont know where i can find of vod of it as its something i have only done a few times. If i get good harrassment with my hellions and he sees me going mech, the response for some zergs is to just out macro me and go for the long game, If i read it successfully i use that to my advantage to be super greedy with upgrades. Its coin flippy as hell to do but it is possible.
Is it possible to mech vs protoss? I really want to. Though I see so many pro players and streamers lose when they do it. It typically ends up with a massive air toss army with HTs guarding them.
On October 18 2013 17:42 llIH wrote: Is it possible to mech vs protoss? I really want to. Though I see so many pro players and streamers lose when they do it. It typically ends up with a massive air toss army with HTs guarding them.
Openers could be CC first-bunker-reactor hellion?
Yes it is possible to mech against protoss. They are by far the hardest race to use mech against however.
End game you want to have a large raven count. Pdd is our best counter to tempest and hsm is very effective against the protoss ground army due to the nature of its deathball style (lots of clumping means lots of aoe). The best comp i have seen for late game is raven (counter mass tempest with pdd/ mass void with hsm + detection) Ghost (enough to emp imortals sheild/archon and snipe ht) Seigetanks for land aoe, Thors for AA aoe dmg, and hellbats as a buffer against mass chargelots. Its an extremely late game finicky build to achieve and pull off, but it is incredibly effective. Terran has all the units to be able to build a perfect reactionary build to the protoss army. I myself have only got that late game comp due to the matches rarely lasting long enough but It is incredibly powerful composition against protoss.
I have found a very agressive 1-1-1 opener that works well against toss.
12 rax (non stop marine production when done) 13 gas 15 oc @100 gas factory @100% factory add starport and tech lab @100% tech lab build tank @100% starport add tech lab @100% tech lab build raven
Continue building tanks and marines and push out when raven is at 90 ish energy with 12 ish marines and 3 tanks. Pull 5-8 scvs to repair tanks and build bunkers in front of the enemy natural. Building one viking to snipe msc is useful.
At this point any excess minerals should be used for cc built bake at base. If it is a long ish seige at thier natural it is possible to build 2 ccs back at base. This will mean we can trade our late expand with a double expand against the toss early expand. (sorry don't have vods to properly explain this).
Build bunkers in front of enemy natural while seige tanks up with in range ( a very map dependant factor for this build.) use raven energy for PDD which counters plantary nexus and hold seige untill nexus is killed. Scvs on auto repair to keep bunkers and tanks alive for as long as possible.
After pulling back from destroying their natural go into standard late game seige compositions. At all times remember that toss can use warp prisms to drop us. Keep some forces at home while seiging in order to deal with wp harras. Heavy raven count recomended for the late game.
I play very similarly, although I don't do this 1base timing to kill their nexus. I may give it a shot. I just need that I have to defend proxy Oracle and Blink allin, nothing else really is that scary. Maybe follow up with Voidray allin but with my build I'm able to hold it as well.
One think I've realised is most Protoss players will be very chargelot/Immortal/Archon heavy eventually switching into air. You need lot's of Hellbats and make sure they are well possitioned as a buffer befor the engagement. This way, nearly all Zealots melt instantly and then Immortal/Archon army can't get to your Tank/Thor army and that is where you win the game.
I also use few medivas just to make sure I can keep my Hellbats alive. The worst thing that can happen is when you find yourself in a situation with no Hellbats, with lots of hight tech units against massive Protoss warp-gate production. In those cases, just back off and remake your Hellbat counts.
Going through my replays I realised I basically only lose when I lose my Hellbat count. Also, make sure to upgrade your mech units properly. What I do is I go 2 armory as soon as I feel safe from any 1base allin and when low on gas, just make 1-2 rounds of Hellbats (you need high count anyways, I'd say like 25-30 is optimal) from tech-labbed factories and dump your gas into upgrades + few medivacs. This way, you can also defend the most scary timing Protoss can do versus mech, the 2 base chargelot + some Immortal, Archon or Ht mixed in.
On October 18 2013 17:42 llIH wrote: Is it possible to mech vs protoss? I really want to. Though I see so many pro players and streamers lose when they do it. It typically ends up with a massive air toss army with HTs guarding them.
Openers could be CC first-bunker-reactor hellion?
Yes it is possible to mech against protoss. They are by far the hardest race to use mech against however.
End game you want to have a large raven count. Pdd is our best counter to tempest and hsm is very effective against the protoss ground army due to the nature of its deathball style (lots of clumping means lots of aoe). The best comp i have seen for late game is raven (counter mass tempest with pdd/ mass void with hsm + detection) Ghost (enough to emp imortals sheild/archon and snipe ht) Seigetanks for land aoe, Thors for AA aoe dmg, and hellbats as a buffer against mass chargelots. Its an extremely late game finicky build to achieve and pull off, but it is incredibly effective. Terran has all the units to be able to build a perfect reactionary build to the protoss army. I myself have only got that late game comp due to the matches rarely lasting long enough but It is incredibly powerful composition against protoss.
I have found a very agressive 1-1-1 opener that works well against toss.
12 rax (non stop marine production when done) 13 gas 15 oc @100 gas factory @100% factory add starport and tech lab @100% tech lab build tank @100% starport add tech lab @100% tech lab build raven
Continue building tanks and marines and push out when raven is at 90 ish energy with 12 ish marines and 3 tanks. Pull 5-8 scvs to repair tanks and build bunkers in front of the enemy natural. Building one viking to snipe msc is useful.
At this point any excess minerals should be used for cc built bake at base. If it is a long ish seige at thier natural it is possible to build 2 ccs back at base. This will mean we can trade our late expand with a double expand against the toss early expand. (sorry don't have vods to properly explain this).
Build bunkers in front of enemy natural while seige tanks up with in range ( a very map dependant factor for this build.) use raven energy for PDD which counters plantary nexus and hold seige untill nexus is killed. Scvs on auto repair to keep bunkers and tanks alive for as long as possible.
After pulling back from destroying their natural go into standard late game seige compositions. At all times remember that toss can use warp prisms to drop us. Keep some forces at home while seiging in order to deal with wp harras. Heavy raven count recomended for the late game.
This is just my style of TvP playing mech atm
Thanks a lot for this. That sounds like a fun thing to try. I need to change my protoss play.
On October 18 2013 17:42 llIH wrote: Is it possible to mech vs protoss? I really want to. Though I see so many pro players and streamers lose when they do it. It typically ends up with a massive air toss army with HTs guarding them.
Openers could be CC first-bunker-reactor hellion?
Yes it is possible to mech against protoss. They are by far the hardest race to use mech against however.
End game you want to have a large raven count. Pdd is our best counter to tempest and hsm is very effective against the protoss ground army due to the nature of its deathball style (lots of clumping means lots of aoe). The best comp i have seen for late game is raven (counter mass tempest with pdd/ mass void with hsm + detection) Ghost (enough to emp imortals sheild/archon and snipe ht) Seigetanks for land aoe, Thors for AA aoe dmg, and hellbats as a buffer against mass chargelots. Its an extremely late game finicky build to achieve and pull off, but it is incredibly effective. Terran has all the units to be able to build a perfect reactionary build to the protoss army. I myself have only got that late game comp due to the matches rarely lasting long enough but It is incredibly powerful composition against protoss.
I have found a very agressive 1-1-1 opener that works well against toss.
12 rax (non stop marine production when done) 13 gas 15 oc @100 gas factory @100% factory add starport and tech lab @100% tech lab build tank @100% starport add tech lab @100% tech lab build raven
Continue building tanks and marines and push out when raven is at 90 ish energy with 12 ish marines and 3 tanks. Pull 5-8 scvs to repair tanks and build bunkers in front of the enemy natural. Building one viking to snipe msc is useful.
At this point any excess minerals should be used for cc built bake at base. If it is a long ish seige at thier natural it is possible to build 2 ccs back at base. This will mean we can trade our late expand with a double expand against the toss early expand. (sorry don't have vods to properly explain this).
Build bunkers in front of enemy natural while seige tanks up with in range ( a very map dependant factor for this build.) use raven energy for PDD which counters plantary nexus and hold seige untill nexus is killed. Scvs on auto repair to keep bunkers and tanks alive for as long as possible.
After pulling back from destroying their natural go into standard late game seige compositions. At all times remember that toss can use warp prisms to drop us. Keep some forces at home while seiging in order to deal with wp harras. Heavy raven count recomended for the late game.
This is just my style of TvP playing mech atm
youre not saying when youre adding second gas. Well done.
On October 18 2013 17:42 llIH wrote: Is it possible to mech vs protoss? I really want to. Though I see so many pro players and streamers lose when they do it. It typically ends up with a massive air toss army with HTs guarding them.
Openers could be CC first-bunker-reactor hellion?
Yes it is possible to mech against protoss. They are by far the hardest race to use mech against however.
End game you want to have a large raven count. Pdd is our best counter to tempest and hsm is very effective against the protoss ground army due to the nature of its deathball style (lots of clumping means lots of aoe). The best comp i have seen for late game is raven (counter mass tempest with pdd/ mass void with hsm + detection) Ghost (enough to emp imortals sheild/archon and snipe ht) Seigetanks for land aoe, Thors for AA aoe dmg, and hellbats as a buffer against mass chargelots. Its an extremely late game finicky build to achieve and pull off, but it is incredibly effective. Terran has all the units to be able to build a perfect reactionary build to the protoss army. I myself have only got that late game comp due to the matches rarely lasting long enough but It is incredibly powerful composition against protoss.
I have found a very agressive 1-1-1 opener that works well against toss.
12 rax (non stop marine production when done) 13 gas 15 oc @100 gas factory @100% factory add starport and tech lab @100% tech lab build tank @100% starport add tech lab @100% tech lab build raven
Continue building tanks and marines and push out when raven is at 90 ish energy with 12 ish marines and 3 tanks. Pull 5-8 scvs to repair tanks and build bunkers in front of the enemy natural. Building one viking to snipe msc is useful.
At this point any excess minerals should be used for cc built bake at base. If it is a long ish seige at thier natural it is possible to build 2 ccs back at base. This will mean we can trade our late expand with a double expand against the toss early expand. (sorry don't have vods to properly explain this).
Build bunkers in front of enemy natural while seige tanks up with in range ( a very map dependant factor for this build.) use raven energy for PDD which counters plantary nexus and hold seige untill nexus is killed. Scvs on auto repair to keep bunkers and tanks alive for as long as possible.
After pulling back from destroying their natural go into standard late game seige compositions. At all times remember that toss can use warp prisms to drop us. Keep some forces at home while seiging in order to deal with wp harras. Heavy raven count recomended for the late game.
This is just my style of TvP playing mech atm
youre not saying when youre adding second gas. Well done.
Quality post How do you expect this to go on? Please bring more to the table. People can do mistakes. I think his build can work
On October 18 2013 17:42 llIH wrote: Is it possible to mech vs protoss? I really want to. Though I see so many pro players and streamers lose when they do it. It typically ends up with a massive air toss army with HTs guarding them.
Openers could be CC first-bunker-reactor hellion?
Yes it is possible to mech against protoss. They are by far the hardest race to use mech against however.
End game you want to have a large raven count. Pdd is our best counter to tempest and hsm is very effective against the protoss ground army due to the nature of its deathball style (lots of clumping means lots of aoe). The best comp i have seen for late game is raven (counter mass tempest with pdd/ mass void with hsm + detection) Ghost (enough to emp imortals sheild/archon and snipe ht) Seigetanks for land aoe, Thors for AA aoe dmg, and hellbats as a buffer against mass chargelots. Its an extremely late game finicky build to achieve and pull off, but it is incredibly effective. Terran has all the units to be able to build a perfect reactionary build to the protoss army. I myself have only got that late game comp due to the matches rarely lasting long enough but It is incredibly powerful composition against protoss.
I have found a very agressive 1-1-1 opener that works well against toss.
12 rax (non stop marine production when done) 13 gas 15 oc @100 gas factory @100% factory add starport and tech lab @100% tech lab build tank @100% starport add tech lab @100% tech lab build raven
Continue building tanks and marines and push out when raven is at 90 ish energy with 12 ish marines and 3 tanks. Pull 5-8 scvs to repair tanks and build bunkers in front of the enemy natural. Building one viking to snipe msc is useful.
At this point any excess minerals should be used for cc built bake at base. If it is a long ish seige at thier natural it is possible to build 2 ccs back at base. This will mean we can trade our late expand with a double expand against the toss early expand. (sorry don't have vods to properly explain this).
Build bunkers in front of enemy natural while seige tanks up with in range ( a very map dependant factor for this build.) use raven energy for PDD which counters plantary nexus and hold seige untill nexus is killed. Scvs on auto repair to keep bunkers and tanks alive for as long as possible.
After pulling back from destroying their natural go into standard late game seige compositions. At all times remember that toss can use warp prisms to drop us. Keep some forces at home while seiging in order to deal with wp harras. Heavy raven count recomended for the late game.
This is just my style of TvP playing mech atm
youre not saying when youre adding second gas. Well done.
Quality post How do you expect this to go on? Please bring more to the table. People can do mistakes. I think his build can work
On October 18 2013 17:42 llIH wrote: Is it possible to mech vs protoss? I really want to. Though I see so many pro players and streamers lose when they do it. It typically ends up with a massive air toss army with HTs guarding them.
Openers could be CC first-bunker-reactor hellion?
Yes it is possible to mech against protoss. They are by far the hardest race to use mech against however.
End game you want to have a large raven count. Pdd is our best counter to tempest and hsm is very effective against the protoss ground army due to the nature of its deathball style (lots of clumping means lots of aoe). The best comp i have seen for late game is raven (counter mass tempest with pdd/ mass void with hsm + detection) Ghost (enough to emp imortals sheild/archon and snipe ht) Seigetanks for land aoe, Thors for AA aoe dmg, and hellbats as a buffer against mass chargelots. Its an extremely late game finicky build to achieve and pull off, but it is incredibly effective. Terran has all the units to be able to build a perfect reactionary build to the protoss army. I myself have only got that late game comp due to the matches rarely lasting long enough but It is incredibly powerful composition against protoss.
I have found a very agressive 1-1-1 opener that works well against toss.
12 rax (non stop marine production when done) 13 gas 15 oc @100 gas factory @100% factory add starport and tech lab @100% tech lab build tank @100% starport add tech lab @100% tech lab build raven
Continue building tanks and marines and push out when raven is at 90 ish energy with 12 ish marines and 3 tanks. Pull 5-8 scvs to repair tanks and build bunkers in front of the enemy natural. Building one viking to snipe msc is useful.
At this point any excess minerals should be used for cc built bake at base. If it is a long ish seige at thier natural it is possible to build 2 ccs back at base. This will mean we can trade our late expand with a double expand against the toss early expand. (sorry don't have vods to properly explain this).
Build bunkers in front of enemy natural while seige tanks up with in range ( a very map dependant factor for this build.) use raven energy for PDD which counters plantary nexus and hold seige untill nexus is killed. Scvs on auto repair to keep bunkers and tanks alive for as long as possible.
After pulling back from destroying their natural go into standard late game seige compositions. At all times remember that toss can use warp prisms to drop us. Keep some forces at home while seiging in order to deal with wp harras. Heavy raven count recomended for the late game.
This is just my style of TvP playing mech atm
Does this hold off agressive oracle + stalker msc rush? out of curriousity, what league are you doing this build, id like to try it!
@Alax, not strange you rarely get to the late game comp is you all-in every toss you see
But late game you can have as many ravens as you want, they won't actually kill tempests, they can only block their shots. Personally I just go for a few ravens for PDD and observer killing, they don't need real-time information on what my army is doing. While HSM can be very effective against clumped up toss ground army, they are also very well counterable by toss. If you launch from max range he just walks back a bit, otherwise he feedbacks all ravens. And stalkers can just blink away.
Personally I have always at least 10 vikings with me, even if the toss has no air and no colossi. If needed I land them during fights, although of course that isn't exactly effective. But imo you really want them vs colossi, you dont want to try to kill speed prisms with HSMs, and of course in case of an air transition of the toss having already a bunch of vikings is invaluable: If the toss goes voids for some reason HSMs work also reasonably, but vs tempests you need something to actually damage them.
My general strat is opening cloakshees, harass the toss, in general killing probes and I make it a point to deny his third. Behind that I simply get my 200/200 mech army, mainly siege tanks + hellbats + vikings + ghosts, with a few ravens and thors added for diversity.
Does this hold off agressive oracle + stalker msc rush? out of curriousity, what league are you doing this build, id like to try it!
For those wondering, i'm Diamond Level terran. So far i have been able to hold of the first oracle and the early msc + stalker pushes with just the marines pumped from the barracks non stop once its completed. Once the first seige tank pops out at 5:40 ish its deals with the stalker and the marines can deal with the msc. I have not had any trouble with the attacks toss can do do that hit between 5-6 mins, its the later ones at 7 + that have been a real pain for me so far but im still learning.
2nd gas is on 16. While you have the factory building and oc building use those minerals you mine to get that extra gas down. (i don't write out build orders very often). This is most effective on maps where the natural does not have a ramp, eg yeonsu, frost etc. I have done it on akilon alot but its tricky getting good bunker placements.
On October 20 2013 07:03 Sissors wrote: @Alax, not strange you rarely get to the late game comp is you all-in every toss you see
I just like agressive openings. Playing agressive opening with mech is stronger than playing defensive i find in tvp. Im shit at scouting so i have to rely on something agressive to keep me alive from all ins (and if not an all in, something to catch me back up). I always get vikings as well, Like you said having 10 or so is crucial. Great for sniping obs making using ghost emp easy as well.
Banshess are something i need to try more. May be a good midgame choice for harrassment, will have to try it out.
Ok, Heres a vod of a game i just played doing that build and how i played out the game. Now i played like shit in this game so no need for comments about me being bad and doing shit wrong, i already know. Some protoss wont go for ht and if they do like in this case you can see the damage ravens can do. esp to clumped up air units.
On October 20 2013 20:29 llIH wrote: Im also curious how you would handle a proxy stargate - oracle.
I have a few games where i come up against that but i play even worse in those. Basically from a 12 rax you can get 5 marines up to deal with the oracle in time. If they do a follow up attack after the oracle it can be difficult to hold. Comes down to scouting and adding bunkers if need be. If i loose to many marines i tend to not attack and just expand behind it as pdd is great for defense as well.
How early does the oracle hit with or without proxy approximately? If going defensive mech. Would it be time to get engi+1turret before it hits or is that completely out of time?
On October 20 2013 23:03 llIH wrote: How early does the oracle hit with or without proxy approximately? If going defensive mech. Would it be time to get engi+1turret before it hits or is that completely out of time?
I think the fastest oracle I have seen is 5:30.. You could get a turret, but 250 minerals so early will pretty much kill you if he decides to do another dedicated allin. And it is really hard to tell, TvP early game is really coinflippy. So I think it is better to get fast Widow Mine, that is at least "fighting unit" and it 1shots Oracle in case he is not careful. Mostly Protoss players are looking for Widow Mine and won't take the bait, but well, you didn't die to proxy Oracle. :-)
I think I've seen somewhere that even 5:15 is possible with Proxy Oracle. I wouldn't recommend the early ebay and turrets either. If you get the feeling an Oracle could be coming, you can better throw a Bunker in the mineral line and put a marine in. That's a lot cheaper (and by the way: the effective range is bigger, because the Bunker is larger).
I dont think Nerchio realised Mech too early, he needed to use Ling Bane Muta to defend, it looked like he was powering really hard against bio, which backfired.
Same Blueflame Hellion opener. Ret scouts mech seconds before Blueflame hits. Damage isn't game-ending. Really late third (starts just before 13m) for Happy, Ret going Roach Hydra, Happy messes up on the engagement, loses natural, gg's.
On October 23 2013 16:35 llIH wrote: I think it is way more interesting to discuss how to mech vs Protoss! :D
Mech versus Protoss is, compared to vs Z/T, really light in the Tanks, in my opinion. You start building tanks slowly but steadilly early on but spend most of your time getting something that slaughters Archons/Immortals. There's 2 candidates: Ravens and Ghosts. Ghosts are a tad cheaper but can't kill anything and also tend to die faster pre- cloak. Ravens are more expensive, less prone to being killed (Being an Aerial unit with PDD support) and can also actually kill units. Ravens are also much more powerful against the Tempest transition.
Mech versus Protoss is, compared to vs Z/T, really light in the Tanks, in my opinion. You start building tanks slowly but steadilly early on but spend most of your time getting something that slaughters Archons/Immortals.
Your right about the tank count. You don't want to over commit building tanks through out the game. having 7-10 end game is ideal (imo) as it gives your army the ability to do real strong contains giving you the ability to pick where the engagement happens which is a huge advantage for mech. Then having ghosts/vikings/ravens/thors and hellbats in the right amounts to counter the protoss army with good upgrades and you will be able to take favourable trades against toss quite easily allowing you to draw out the match and out trade the toss.
I remember reading a tip from one of the pro's threads about mech in tvp. Never go over 170 without identifying what the enemy army is made up of. You want to spend the last spare supply you have on key units to counter the toss army. Also knowing when you can sacrifice workers is good. Being able to drop your worker count to around 30-40 and rely on mules for the rest of your inc (want to have about 5+ orbitals before sacrificeing workers).
On October 23 2013 16:35 llIH wrote: I think it is way more interesting to discuss how to mech vs Protoss! :D
I prefer discussing mech vs Zerg, much more of a problem for me .
Also if I look at where Happy beat Nerchio. He made the ideal counter to ling/muta, and still his pushed got quite well hold off, and that was with Nerchio not having great economy from what I saw. But that was also pure thor/hellbat. Pretty much everytime I try that the moment my enemy scouts it he doesn't continue making mutas, but goes either for mass roaches or swarmhosts. However Nerchio only very late went for roaches, and completely ignored swarmhosts while Happy was really low on tank count. And easy with observer view, but the fourth of Happy could have taken out so many times. Only defense was that it was a PF. Then add Nerchio way overproducing corruptors, and really I wonder how Happy would have done against an opponent who would have played against the weaknesses of mech.
Regarding toss I strongly prefer ghosts over ravens. Ghosts do at least reasonable against HTs, instead of being hardcountered by them. And they can just fire on max range, while if you do it with ravens the toss will just walk back a bit. Then HSM is delayed (especially because you can't fire immediatly), and doesn't work against archons (yeah it does damage of course, but only little). I do take generally two or so ravens with me, for detection and PDDs. And of course if you go ravens over ghosts you are better against tempests. Although worse against the accompanying HTs.
Mech versus Protoss is, compared to vs Z/T, really light in the Tanks, in my opinion. You start building tanks slowly but steadilly early on but spend most of your time getting something that slaughters Archons/Immortals.
Your right about the tank count. You don't want to over commit building tanks through out the game. having 7-10 end game is ideal (imo) as it gives your army the ability to do real strong contains giving you the ability to pick where the engagement happens which is a huge advantage for mech. Then having ghosts/vikings/ravens/thors and hellbats in the right amounts to counter the protoss army with good upgrades and you will be able to take favourable trades against toss quite easily allowing you to draw out the match and out trade the toss.
I remember reading a tip from one of the pro's threads about mech in tvp. Never go over 170 without identifying what the enemy army is made up of. You want to spend the last spare supply you have on key units to counter the toss army. Also knowing when you can sacrifice workers is good. Being able to drop your worker count to around 30-40 and rely on mules for the rest of your inc (want to have about 5+ orbitals before sacrificeing workers).
Holding production at 170-180 is really common in Bio vs Protoss as well. Rounding out the composition with the last few counter units. It's also important to never force the issue against Protoss. You NEED a powerful army before you go in again, gateway units with some robo/stargate support get a jump on ou supply wise really easilly, and Mech units need the supply/HP in the battle to really get damage done (1 wave of siege tank shots doesn't do a lot, the second volley is where stuff dies, same goes for Ravens).
On October 23 2013 16:35 llIH wrote: I think it is way more interesting to discuss how to mech vs Protoss! :D
I prefer discussing mech vs Zerg, much more of a problem for me .
Also if I look at where Happy beat Nerchio. He made the ideal counter to ling/muta, and still his pushed got quite well hold off, and that was with Nerchio not having great economy from what I saw. But that was also pure thor/hellbat. Pretty much everytime I try that the moment my enemy scouts it he doesn't continue making mutas, but goes either for mass roaches or swarmhosts. However Nerchio only very late went for roaches, and completely ignored swarmhosts while Happy was really low on tank count. And easy with observer view, but the fourth of Happy could have taken out so many times. Only defense was that it was a PF. Then add Nerchio way overproducing corruptors, and really I wonder how Happy would have done against an opponent who would have played against the weaknesses of mech. I think Nerchio didn't identfy the Mech in time and was kinda dead before he knew it.
Regarding toss I strongly prefer ghosts over ravens. Ghosts do at least reasonable against HTs, instead of being hardcountered by them. And they can just fire on max range, while if you do it with ravens the toss will just walk back a bit. Then HSM is delayed (especially because you can't fire immediatly), and doesn't work against archons (yeah it does damage of course, but only little). I do take generally two or so ravens with me, for detection and PDDs. And of course if you go ravens over ghosts you are better against tempests. Although worse against the accompanying HTs.
Well, I prefer ravens, it's just a preferance right ? Siege Tanks are great at zoning out High Templar and Ravens HSM forces Toss to retreat, taking losses, or attack, risking massive damage from HSM. Ghosts can't force a battle with mech. Whereas bio can chase Toss after good EMPs, Mech cannot. Retreating from EMP is a lot easier and less costly in this situation.
That is true, they can always retreat from EMPs, although due to the tanks that will generally be with losses, roughly the same as what you describe with HSMs .
It is definately a personal preference, it depends also on your playstyle. Personally I like to force the issue against toss. I never did that in WoL, but instead went for BC transition, but in HotS I don't consider that really great. That is also why in the beginning in HotS I really had alot of issues vs toss (that and they had more stargate openings). Now I prefer to attack as soon as I am maxed (although the not completely maxing is actually good idea), since waiting doesn't make my position better.
And then I try to force the issue by attempting to siege up in a key location, hopefully with his army out of position. For example on quite some maps right outside his natural ramp, although of course that isn't always possible. Still I want to be somewhere where he really doesn't want to have me. That forces him to attack into my army, which is alot better idea than the other way around.
The difference is EMP being instant and not lethal, so you can really gauge what happens. HSM can kill stuff, quite fast, and because it is not instant, Protoss has some really quick decisions to make.
Regardless, both units fulfill the same purpose, the raven is more expensive but has more utility, IMO, the Ghost on the other hand is easier to get but limited to EMP only.
On October 23 2013 23:14 SC2Toastie wrote: The difference is EMP being instant and not lethal, so you can really gauge what happens. HSM can kill stuff, quite fast, and because it is not instant, Protoss has some really quick decisions to make.
Regardless, both units fulfill the same purpose, the raven is more expensive but has more utility, IMO, the Ghost on the other hand is easier to get but limited to EMP only.
I don't think they fulfill the same role, if you are facing compositions which are heavy on immortal and archon I feel that you need Ghosts for the instant damage that EMP provides, especially removing immortal shields so that your other units can dish out full damage on them. HSM takes too long to do damage and your tanks/thors will be wasting precious shots and doing almost no damage until HSM hits and by then you'll have needlessly lost a bunch of your forces.
It seems Ravens are required (and very good) in the late game but these days I've been delaying the transition until I see a stargate coming up, I don't get more than a couple to fight ground armies.
Currently I am trying blue flame hellion openings, and doing quite reasonable with the openings themselves. I feel I need to keep my macro more up at the same time, but thats for myself to practise on. My first issue is that I feel I am throwing a dice, if he opens roaches I guess I will immediatly lose. Although I lose anyway to roach openers since with them I cant do early damage, and then I always lose vs zerg. What do others do who mech then? A timing push? But if he doesn't just opens roaches, but actually goes blindly for a shitload of roaches, he will go straight through any timing push you can do. Hellbat drops and hoping he doesn't transition too soon to mutas?
Next phase, after my BFHs roasted some zerg, I got to transition to regular mech. First I will need some thors to deal with mutas. But then the question that I have most problems with in TvZ: how to determine if you need to focus on tanks or thors. For me it is almost impossible to scout. Tanks obviously outright lose to any kinda of muta play, and a few thors aren't going to change it. Meanwhile thors are bad against heavy roaches, and beyond horrible against swarmhosts.
Example, my last loss vs zerg he did a bit of muta raiding, I made missile turrets, he had something like 15 mutas, I had 5 thors + quite a bit of siege tanks and hellbats. I scan his main, see researching infestation thingie and he is teching to hive. So I consider it a good chance he went swarmhosts and meanwhile wanted 3/3. I attack, he apparantly was just massing mutas and something like 25-30 mutas walked over my thors and killed my entire army. I actually wonder on even resources how effective thors are vs magic boxed mutas, I don't think all that impressive.
I could have gone purely thor hellbat, but then as said roaches are an issue, not to mention if he had a bit of a bank, made infestation pit, and then start producing swarmhosts. How am I supposed to scout that in time to then switch in time to siege tanks? Thor/hellbat is horribad vs swarmhosts unless you got them directly cornered: You can probably fight through one wave of locusts, but if they just unburrow walk back, and send a second wave that doesn't really help you. You can try to buy time by attacking where the swarmhosts aren't, but if you try to abuse someones immobility with thors I have bad news...
On October 25 2013 17:14 Sissors wrote: Okay, question from me related to TvZ.
Currently I am trying blue flame hellion openings, and doing quite reasonable with the openings themselves. I feel I need to keep my macro more up at the same time, but thats for myself to practise on. My first issue is that I feel I am throwing a dice, if he opens roaches I guess I will immediatly lose. Although I lose anyway to roach openers since with them I cant do early damage, and then I always lose vs zerg. What do others do who mech then? A timing push? But if he doesn't just opens roaches, but actually goes blindly for a shitload of roaches, he will go straight through any timing push you can do. Hellbat drops and hoping he doesn't transition too soon to mutas?
Next phase, after my BFHs roasted some zerg, I got to transition to regular mech. First I will need some thors to deal with mutas. But then the question that I have most problems with in TvZ: how to determine if you need to focus on tanks or thors. For me it is almost impossible to scout. Tanks obviously outright lose to any kinda of muta play, and a few thors aren't going to change it. Meanwhile thors are bad against heavy roaches, and beyond horrible against swarmhosts.
Example, my last loss vs zerg he did a bit of muta raiding, I made missile turrets, he had something like 15 mutas, I had 5 thors + quite a bit of siege tanks and hellbats. I scan his main, see researching infestation thingie and he is teching to hive. So I consider it a good chance he went swarmhosts and meanwhile wanted 3/3. I attack, he apparantly was just massing mutas and something like 25-30 mutas walked over my thors and killed my entire army. I actually wonder on even resources how effective thors are vs magic boxed mutas, I don't think all that impressive.
I could have gone purely thor hellbat, but then as said roaches are an issue, not to mention if he had a bit of a bank, made infestation pit, and then start producing swarmhosts. How am I supposed to scout that in time to then switch in time to siege tanks? Thor/hellbat is horribad vs swarmhosts unless you got them directly cornered: You can probably fight through one wave of locusts, but if they just unburrow walk back, and send a second wave that doesn't really help you. You can try to buy time by attacking where the swarmhosts aren't, but if you try to abuse someones immobility with thors I have bad news...
As I posted earlier in this thread, your goal should be to stay as tank heavy as possible throughout the whole match, you have to basically scout his unit comp by doing hellion run-by's and hopefully get some intel (see what defends the harass or what pops from his larva/eggs). Also a great way to get away with lots of tanks is building widow-mines and less hellbats, as they will deal with poking mutas and thin out those roach numbers, if placed correctly.
Fuck, just busted my ankle, shouldn't walk down stairs while writing, I guess :/
Anyway, also a decent number of Vikings help out as well and sages you some supply taken by thors otherwise, it forces the Zerg to counter your air or go straight to ultras, which leaves you in a good spot with tank/wm/few hellbats/few thors.
I guess widow mines help, and indeed was planning to do more hellion runbys also. But vikings are pretty terrible vs mutas. If you just focus on tanks the issue I have is that you can't move out as long as there is a sizable number of mutas on the field, you need to stay under your missile turret umbrella.
Which gives the zerg the option to mass expand and negate the BFH damage.
On October 25 2013 18:35 Sissors wrote: I guess widow mines help, and indeed was planning to do more hellion runbys also. But vikings are pretty terrible vs mutas. If you just focus on tanks the issue I have is that you can't move out as long as there is a sizable number of mutas on the field, you need to stay under your missile turret umbrella.
Which gives the zerg the option to mass expand and negate the BFH damage.
Sorry, I may have been unclear regarding the Vikings:
It's not their job to deal with mutas solely on their own, their job is to secure your move-out with your ground army. If you have 2-3 Thors with your tanks + 8-10 wm for example, you can deal with mutas REALLY easily, as he either needs to go harass with them at your bases (but enough turrets should deflect that) or has to fight your whole army, which is not a good idea for him at all. It really comes down to decide wisely were you wanna siege up and defend this position. If you killed all his mutas or he decides to transition out of them, you can also use your vikings to kill LOTS of overlords or harass mineral lines while adjusting your unit composition.
However if he just moves in lings first, then sure they get roasted fast, but at least part of your widow mines go off. I guess unburrowing helps, but for example with some banelings also added you will lose a part. Then you have 2-3 thors I doubt you die to 10-15 magic boxed mutas.
That's what you have Vikings for -> Widow Mines and Thors soften them up, the Vikings+Thors deal with the leftovers. I'll suggest you try it out... Also I thought you have difficulties against roaches? If he goes ling/bling/muta, you can fully go out on hellion/hellbat/thor sprinkled with a few widow mines to migitate baneling hits, but I really never see people going ling/bling/muta against mech as it really shouldn't give you ANY problems at all.
But then we are back to vikings just beind bad against mutas, why not invest that into more thors? What is the advantage of vikings compared to thors? (Until broodlords come).
And ling/bling/muta does give me problems, since he just happily makes 25-30 mutas and mass expands. If I don't attack he can freely expand and win, if I do attack either I don't have enough thors and he magix boxes them, or apparantly he made a bunch of swarmhosts and autowins. And that isn't just me, if you see Happy vs Nerchio, in the end Happy won due to Nerchios awfull play, but he quite easily hold off Happys pure hellbat/thor push with ling/bling/muta: It is only a matter of killing the thors, which aren't great against mutas, and there is no anti-air remaining.
But my main issue is that if I go heavy on thors, he suddenly can poop out 10+ swarmhosts or a load of roaches. If I go heavy on siege tank, he can quickly make a bunch of mutas and kill me.
On October 25 2013 21:00 Sissors wrote: But then we are back to vikings just beind bad against mutas, why not invest that into more thors? What is the advantage of vikings compared to thors? (Until broodlords come).
And ling/bling/muta does give me problems, since he just happily makes 25-30 mutas and mass expands. If I don't attack he can freely expand and win, if I do attack either I don't have enough thors and he magix boxes them, or apparantly he made a bunch of swarmhosts and autowins. And that isn't just me, if you see Happy vs Nerchio, in the end Happy won due to Nerchios awfull play, but he quite easily hold off Happys pure hellbat/thor push with ling/bling/muta: It is only a matter of killing the thors, which aren't great against mutas, and there is no anti-air remaining.
But my main issue is that if I go heavy on thors, he suddenly can poop out 10+ swarmhosts or a load of roaches. If I go heavy on siege tank, he can quickly make a bunch of mutas and kill me.
If you don't scout enough, don't force certain units out of him being active (drops/runbys/timing pushes) or just let him get a huge bank, then you will inevitably face tech switches directly against what you currently have. So you either need Ravens to handle those, or you need to be active and play the "in-game" style how pros do. This, or you need to have healthy amount of everything all the time. Just a well balanced army of Hellbat/Tank/Thor + few Vikings/Medivacs, depending on your playstyle and then you can add Ravens to lock the game down.
Vikings are great to prevent multiple Blinding Clouds. It's worth to make at least 6 I'd say (not sure how many after patch) to at least make him sacrifice his Vipers, but you need them only when you want to move out. If you go for Vikings too early, you might get overrun on ground. Because this 14-15 mins Viper timing there is no way to prevent him from landing at least 2-3 Clouds. So you actually need lots of units to hold this, then you can add Vikings.
Yes but the problem is how should I scout it. If I scan his main and I see an infestation pit researching stuff, I assume he is doing a swarmhost tech switch. Then I lose because apparantly he wasn't and just had a shitload of mutas.
Ravens can be nice, but are at best mediocre against mutas, and bad against ultralisks.
Vikings against vipers is just like vipers vs broodlords, nice later on, but not the mid-game where I don't see their advantage compared to more thors (besides just sweeping a few overlords).
On October 25 2013 21:28 Sissors wrote: Yes but the problem is how should I scout it. If I scan his main and I see an infestation pit researching stuff, I assume he is doing a swarmhost tech switch. Then I lose because apparantly he wasn't and just had a shitload of mutas.
Ravens can be nice, but are at best mediocre against mutas, and bad against ultralisks.
Vikings against vipers is just like vipers vs broodlords, nice later on, but not the mid-game where I don't see their advantage compared to more thors (besides just sweeping a few overlords).
You need to scout for Spire, that is like the priority #1 (besides allins like no drones @3d, or bane busts, fast roaches etc...). Then you need to confirm Hive timing. For those purposes, scans are pretty reliable..
Other then that, drops will basically always tell you what units he is making. And by scouting that you can confirm what units he is NOT making.
Vikings are actually good choice early on, because the best way to play against mech is to go for Vipers as fast as possible. For those, you need Vikings. There are exeptions here and there, but you will end up with them anyways.
Also, you should not be spamming certain unit with mech. Due to how Zerg production works, by doing that, you are just asking to get tech switched to death. So unless you absolutely know the game won't last another 3 minutes for him to make Mutas, you should not go for like pure Hellbat/Tank army. It is relatively easy for Zerg to counter certain mech units. But if you have decent well rounded army with upgrades, he can't counter you so easily.
edit: You can also play like hellion/banshee -> mutas -> thors -> sh/roach -> tank/raven -> win.. Basic tech switches in my games and there is really no room for anything else.. Also, you should end up with relatively high Raven count anyways, because HSM let's you deal with both Ultras/Broodlords + SH. HSM is actually really good vs Ultras. You can fight them heads on with you Thors even in open field, just HSM everything, move back a little bit and watch em explode.. :-)
On October 25 2013 21:28 Sissors wrote: Yes but the problem is how should I scout it. If I scan his main and I see an infestation pit researching stuff, I assume he is doing a swarmhost tech switch. Then I lose because apparantly he wasn't and just had a shitload of mutas.
Ravens can be nice, but are at best mediocre against mutas, and bad against ultralisks.
Vikings against vipers is just like vipers vs broodlords, nice later on, but not the mid-game where I don't see their advantage compared to more thors (besides just sweeping a few overlords).
You need to scout for Spire, that is like the priority #1 (besides allins like no drones @3d, or bane busts, fast roaches etc...). Then you need to confirm Hive timing. For those purposes, scans are pretty reliable..
Other then that, drops will basically always tell you what units he is making. And by scouting that you can confirm what units he is NOT making.
Vikings are actually good choice early on, because the best way to play against mech is to go for Vipers as fast as possible. For those, you need Vikings. There are exeptions here and there, but you will end up with them anyways.
Also, you should not be spamming certain unit with mech. Due to how Zerg production works, by doing that, you are just asking to get tech switched to death. So unless you absolutely know the game won't last another 3 minutes for him to make Mutas, you should not go for like pure Hellbat/Tank army. It is relatively easy for Zerg to counter certain mech units. But if you have decent well rounded army with upgrades, he can't counter you so easily.
edit: You can also play like hellion/banshee -> mutas -> thors -> sh/roach -> tank/raven -> win.. Basic tech switches in my games and there is really no room for anything else.. Also, you should end up with relatively high Raven count anyways, because HSM let's you deal with both Ultras/Broodlords + SH. HSM is actually really good vs Ultras. You can fight them heads on with you Thors even in open field, just HSM everything, move back a little bit and watch em explode.. :-)
That would be the ultimate end game goal, but unless you feel comfortable/trade efficiently enough to have that huge Raven count, the best unit when playing mech IS actually the Tank, because it works well against Ling/Bling, Roach/Hydra, Infestor/Ultra (against Ultras you absolutely need lots of UNSIEGED tanks to kill them off, at least that's what I do and I'm pretty successful so far with it) and even Swarm Hosts to SOME extend (Raven is really the way to go).
Your problem seems to be scouting your opponents' tech properly, which really can be an issue when you're too passive (which is sort of necessary when going mech, as you need to amass a certain army to be able to really do damage), so you should dump your minerals into Hellion/Hellbat Harass WHENEVER you are able to (good move when you catch some Mutas flying towards your base is to attempt a Hellion runby (the more bases you raid simultaneously, the better).
This can and WILL often buy you plenty of time to build some Widow Mines and/or Thors in case your turrets aren't up yet.
Like Everlong stated, it really comes down to your ability to interprete the scouting info and also anticipate eventual tech switches, so your army composition is always perfect.
Maybe its just me, but I make vikings against anything zerg does. Start by making one soon after your starport finishes (after whatever medivacs or banshees you use for harass), go hunt overlords and keep growing that vikings count afterwards.
When you think about it, there's really no threatening zerg timings after roach/bane all in where vikings wouldn't be of help. Against a rush to vipers they can zone them out and potentially snipe one or two, essential to have. Against corruptor/BL, its a no brainer. Against swarm hosts you use them to protect your ravens/banshees. Against mutas I find vikings are very underrated, they are your best support for turrets against really harass-heavy players and a combination of thors and mutas is a LOT more effective against mass muta as they can't just magic box as easily. The only mistake you can make is building a few too vikings and losing to some mass roach shenanigans, but that really shouldn't happen to a careful player.
Also if you aren't sure of your opponents unit comp, the last thing you want to do is blindly attack! Just send out scouting hellions, use scans and whatever. Oftentimes its just better to secure a 4th base and start building up your raven count at this point. Mech is all about that patience.
Been using the above as I practice meching found it to be a pretty good starting point for players who haven't meched previously. Still working hard to try and cultivate the patience required to execute mech well.
Question: what do you do when the zerg has swarmhosts? I feel like I am on a clock in TvZ because I can never attack via ground if the zerg has a certain critical mass of swarmhosts and by the time I teched to air he can fill the entire area in front of my base with spores...
If they get up a Spore wall alongside their Swarm Hosts you need a Raven/Tank/Viking combo. You move the Tanks forward covered by PDDs and slowly gain ground, taking out Spores along the way. The Vikings are there to help keep Vipers back and make sure Corruptors don't just walk in and kill all the Ravens. And of course, wherever the opportunity prevents, Seeker the Swarm Hosts (sometimes you can just do this to every SH straight up because they have bad Spore positioning).
You also want to remember that he has a tonne of supply commited to this and he probably has a fair big of tunnel vision. So sending out Hellbats, or any Thors you might have, or even just a Raven/Auto-turret squad to snipe bases can help a lot.
I can't believe how bad Maru played his openings in WCS vs Dear. However mid to late was very good. Too late bunker got punished every single game. I am writing this here because it applies for either mech or bio. Since it is for the first marines that you get before choosing tech route.
Further on. How do you guys treat an offensive MSC + stalker + zealot play? (consider the P is expanding behind it and is not an all in)
On October 28 2013 07:54 JustPassingBy wrote: Question: what do you do when the zerg has swarmhosts? I feel like I am on a clock in TvZ because I can never attack via ground if the zerg has a certain critical mass of swarmhosts and by the time I teched to air he can fill the entire area in front of my base with spores...
You should have triple starport (1 reactor 2 techlab) up once you scout the swarmhost play, or alternatively roughly when you are certain the zerg is on hive tech. Hopefully you are on 3, preferrably 4 bases yourself. Just make raven/viking to support your tanks, meanwhile drop hellbats/thors to his remote bases. Assuming the zerg doesn't have a huge economic lead its very possible to rip them apart this way, getting all those spores isn't exactly cheap. Once you have him distracted on other fronts its possible to advance with your tanks or just with raven/viking, throw down 1-2 PDDs to protect yourself from the spores and then just spam seekers everywhere. If he unburrows and runs, take this opportunity to move your tanks forward. On a map with more than 1 attack path (basically anything that isn't Akilon) its perfectly possible to set up flanks too.
Basically do everything you can to abuse his immobility while using tank/viking/raven as your brute force army.
On October 28 2013 20:41 llIH wrote: I can't believe how bad Maru played his openings in WCS vs Dear. However mid to late was very good. Too late bunker got punished every single game. I am writing this here because it applies for either mech or bio. Since it is for the first marines that you get before choosing tech route.
Further on. How do you guys treat an offensive MSC + stalker + zealot play? (consider the P is expanding behind it and is not an all in)
Imo one of the things protoss don't do nearly enough, considering how much of a pita it is to hold off if your bunker isn't up in time, and even if it is there is still enough damage to do for low cost.
I personally just always ebay block the toss (unless I get screwed by the random number generator on 4p maps). Then he at least has to make a choice: either destroy the block first, or accept that your expansion is alot later.
On October 28 2013 07:54 JustPassingBy wrote: Question: what do you do when the zerg has swarmhosts? I feel like I am on a clock in TvZ because I can never attack via ground if the zerg has a certain critical mass of swarmhosts and by the time I teched to air he can fill the entire area in front of my base with spores...
You should have triple starport (1 reactor 2 techlab) up once you scout the swarmhost play, or alternatively roughly when you are certain the zerg is on hive tech. Hopefully you are on 3, preferrably 4 bases yourself. Just make raven/viking to support your tanks, meanwhile drop hellbats/thors to his remote bases. Assuming the zerg doesn't have a huge economic lead its very possible to rip them apart this way, getting all those spores isn't exactly cheap. Once you have him distracted on other fronts its possible to advance with your tanks or just with raven/viking, throw down 1-2 PDDs to protect yourself from the spores and then just spam seekers everywhere. If he unburrows and runs, take this opportunity to move your tanks forward. On a map with more than 1 attack path (basically anything that isn't Akilon) its perfectly possible to set up flanks too.
Basically do everything you can to abuse his immobility while using tank/viking/raven as your brute force army.
Problem is that swarmhosts are way more mobile than a mech army. You can spawn locusts, unburrow, move, reburrow and spawn a next wave. Of course when they really have setup spores it isn't that easy, but in general thats why you can only move very slowly against swarmhosts, mech isn't fast enough to kill them until they are cornered.
And if they have around 10 mutas they can intercept any drop, attempt at clearing out creep with hellions, and since you also cannot hunt down there overlords, they should be able to intercept pretty much everything. Sure you can try to really make a viking army, but then you just outright die to ultralisks.
@Val_, much appreciated, will especially check the TvZs out, since I still pretty much can't win that.
Ehh, all those things are hard to deal with in the hands of a good zerg player but it basically boils down to outplaying your opponent. In case of mutas you can try dropping multiple places at once and just trying to catch them with your viking/raven. If they have enough money to have a sizeable flock of mutas, enough swarm hosts to keep you pinned down + the spores AND money for an ultralisk switch, you should be at a point where you have mass orbital and a 150+ supply army including a cloud of ravens. Suddenly his tech switches become a lot less scary when all his supply is tied up in drones and it becomes impossible for him to have a cost efficient engagements.
Also "just dying to ultralisks" should almost never happen assuming you don't get caught out in the open. I guess you aren't building defensive planetaries in crucial locations, ultralisks have a hell of a hard time attacking into those.
Catching mutas with vikings? That seems unlikely to me. And I never said a sizable flock of mutas, 10 is easily enough to take down drops and hellions fast. So that + swarmhosts isn't exactly strange. A few spores aren't that expensive, and generally when they aren't killing your drops those mutas can provide additional air coverage.
And massing vikings just means you take an enormous risk against ultralisks, since both vikings and ravens are useless vs them. Sure you can make planetaries everywhere, but that puts the costs of a bunch of spores to completely irrelevant. Planetaries are alot more expensive than that. Not to mention he then doesn't need to kill you with a wave of ultralisks: He has the entire map, if the first wave fails, make another one. Considering compares to WoL ultralisks do like triple the damage vs the mech meatshield I think it is really easy to say you just shouldn't die to them. And that is ignoring vipers, one good run of them and your mech army is gone. And you cannot just remax.
But really you act like it is strange for a zerg to have 10 mutas and a load of swarmhost, then please also inform my zerg opponents of it. Because it is really getting irritating. Just like people tell me if a zerg has a larger flock of mutas he can't have many roaches, apparantly my opponents dont agree on that...
And I would blame my macro, if my macro wasn't reasonable enough vs other terrans, and just good vs toss (I always go for the late game macro with mech vs toss). But at least them I can harass. Toss I prefer banshees. Vs terran hellbat drops and hellions. If I use them vs zerg they just get killed by generally mutas.
Honestly to me it sounds extremely odd that someone would have so much trouble meching TvZ but not TvP.
Maybe you should post some replays of your games, people might be able to help you better that way. We can go on all day about how zerg can do this and terran can do that but it wont probably help much if we cant identify the problems in your play.
Can't help it, TvP I just get . With purely macro games I have above 70% win rate vs toss. Of those I lose probably 50/50 between all-ins I misscouted and air switches for toss, with a few times I get beaten by toss ground army and random mid-game stuff, but not too often.
TvZ is currently at 40%, but those wins are generally semi-all ins of my working out (BFHs currently) or the zerg doing something extremely stupid. Such as proxy-hatching (on my natural), or my last late game win vs zerg: Mass roaches + few infestors into a choke vs mech army.
You are right that probably a replay helps more, if I am home and got a good one (or two) I guess I can upload them. The 'problem' I have with it, is that generally you get alot of stuff like: You were supply capped, your macro is bad, etc. Probably true, but that is the same for my TvP games (and TvT) and I do win them. But will upload one when I got one.
Main problem with that for me is that raiding is pretty much a no-go. But besides that never had issues with phoenix, I am more worried about them mixing in tempests (and carriers also, although mainly tempests).
So I just make a regular mix of: Siege tanks - ground control, do reasonable against not too large numbers of colossi, but I make a bit less than usual Hellbats - need to put minerals in something, and so does he, so he will have plenty of zealots Thors - a bit more than usual, vs phoenix they do to air what siege tanks do to ground, give space control Ghosts - EMP versus mainly immortals, as secondary role they are fine also vs phoenix Ravens - PDD, and some insurance against mainly tempest transition, also void, but you should be fine against that anyway Vikings - alot of vikings. Don't overdo it, he can always go back to full ground, but it is hard to overdo it against such an army
I guess you could also completely replace ghosts with ravens, but one error and phoenix rip through ravens. So TL;DR is that I just make my fairly standard composition with bit less focus on siege tanks and more on vikings/thors. With still plenty of siege tanks for area control and as secondary anti colossus, your vikings probably busy handling phoenix.
Hi all, looking for some help on a build I used to use a few months ago. I've lost all trace of the build, both in my own replays (guess I deleted them) and all my online resources.
It was a TvT mech build popularized by either Polt or Forgg (I want to say Forgg) that emphasized hellions over hellbats, giving you map control and constant threat of harass. You opened hellions and made hellions nonstop throughout the game. The only specific I remember about the build was that it opened 15 gas...
I'm sure it was phased out after the banshee cloak buff a while back, but I want to see if I can work it into my current arsenal again.
On October 30 2013 15:32 halpimcat wrote: Hi all, looking for some help on a build I used to use a few months ago. I've lost all trace of the build, both in my own replays (guess I deleted them) and all my online resources.
It was a TvT mech build popularized by either Polt or Forgg (I want to say Forgg) that emphasized hellions over hellbats, giving you map control and constant threat of harass. You opened hellions and made hellions nonstop throughout the game. The only specific I remember about the build was that it opened 15 gas...
I'm sure it was phased out after the banshee cloak buff a while back, but I want to see if I can work it into my current arsenal again.
On October 30 2013 15:32 halpimcat wrote: Hi all, looking for some help on a build I used to use a few months ago. I've lost all trace of the build, both in my own replays (guess I deleted them) and all my online resources.
It was a TvT mech build popularized by either Polt or Forgg (I want to say Forgg) that emphasized hellions over hellbats, giving you map control and constant threat of harass. You opened hellions and made hellions nonstop throughout the game. The only specific I remember about the build was that it opened 15 gas...
I'm sure it was phased out after the banshee cloak buff a while back, but I want to see if I can work it into my current arsenal again.
On October 30 2013 06:24 Sissors wrote: Main problem with that for me is that raiding is pretty much a no-go. But besides that never had issues with phoenix, I am more worried about them mixing in tempests (and carriers also, although mainly tempests).
So I just make a regular mix of: Siege tanks - ground control, do reasonable against not too large numbers of colossi, but I make a bit less than usual Hellbats - need to put minerals in something, and so does he, so he will have plenty of zealots Thors - a bit more than usual, vs phoenix they do to air what siege tanks do to ground, give space control Ghosts - EMP versus mainly immortals, as secondary role they are fine also vs phoenix Ravens - PDD, and some insurance against mainly tempest transition, also void, but you should be fine against that anyway Vikings - alot of vikings. Don't overdo it, he can always go back to full ground, but it is hard to overdo it against such an army
I guess you could also completely replace ghosts with ravens, but one error and phoenix rip through ravens. So TL;DR is that I just make my fairly standard composition with bit less focus on siege tanks and more on vikings/thors. With still plenty of siege tanks for area control and as secondary anti colossus, your vikings probably busy handling phoenix.
Yeah maybe i shouldve said I play ghostless tvp mech. I frankly don't see the point in using ghosts with mech, I might as well play bio then. But I guess if theyre heavy on immortals massing banshee viking raven with some tanks n hellbats is ideal?
On October 31 2013 03:01 Snusmumriken wrote: Yeah maybe i shouldve said I play ghostless tvp mech. I frankly don't see the point in using ghosts with mech, I might as well play bio then. But I guess if theyre heavy on immortals massing banshee viking raven with some tanks n hellbats is ideal?
Ghostless mech? :O Is it even in any way reliable to fight Protoss ground without Ghosts? In my last few TvPs I kinda tried to go "ghostless" but I ended up getting a few anyway and ended up losing because of not having enough EMPs to fight mass Immortals.
On October 31 2013 03:01 Snusmumriken wrote: Yeah maybe i shouldve said I play ghostless tvp mech. I frankly don't see the point in using ghosts with mech, I might as well play bio then. But I guess if theyre heavy on immortals massing banshee viking raven with some tanks n hellbats is ideal?
Ghostless mech? :O Is it even in any way reliable to fight Protoss ground without Ghosts? In my last few TvPs I kinda tried to go "ghostless" but I ended up getting a few anyway and ended up losing because of not having enough EMPs to fight mass Immortals.
yes but you have to turtle like a madman and get a gazillion ravens. Basically you got an endgame comp of 15-20 tanks max, 8+ ravens and the rest vikings and hellions. Lots of hellions to snipe the templars.
Youre also very vulnerable to certain timingpushes so got to scout a lot. Building a medivac for harass but more importantly for scouting around the opponents main is a good idea.
That was why I got screwed when I played vs phoenix imortal. Not enough vikings and so ravens cant do their thing vs ground. Lots of vikings and banshees is a better idea than ravens then I guess.
Regardless of your composition, you'll have a problem in TvP because, unlike WoL, you can't aim for a truly "strong vs everything" composition at most point of the game, meaning you are constantly vulnerable to a wide amount of things.. the main reason of that being that protoss air got considerably buffed at all points of the game; which affect a lot your opening/composition/etc
Currently i'm totally lost in terms of openings (i loved my "immune to everything" wol one )
Anyway.. HOTS made mech worse imo. None of mech fundamental issues got adressed, and some hard counters went into the game for P/Z
On October 31 2013 04:50 Lyyna wrote: Anyway.. HOTS made mech worse imo.
I was bitching about this months and months ago and everyone was like "just wait, it's to soon, but we have mines,etc..."
Blizz fixed some relatively minor problems like charge Zealots (hellbats) and introduced more retarded hard counters. They are either clueless or simply lying about wanting to make mech viable (ever since they were forced to remove the Warhound)
This 1/10 buff to the Tank rate of fire is the most significant positive thing they ever did for mech. Not that it will matter mind you.
On October 31 2013 04:50 Lyyna wrote: Anyway.. HOTS made mech worse imo.
I was bitching about this months and months ago and everyone was like "just wait, it's to soon, but we have mines,etc..."
Pfff I was bitching months before you about it .
I am like the hipster of mech bitching .
But no serious, I completely agree. Vs zerg it is so obvious no-one can deny HotS mech is far worse than WoL. Against toss we maybe see it a bit more on top level, but for me personally I consider it worse. Sure mech got some minor boosts + hellbats, which are nice although also have their downsides compared to hellions. But in the end they are nice to have. But at the same time toss got oracle, better phoenix, better carrier, and most scary, the tempest, which is basicly a hardcounter to mech. Not only that, in WoL my end-game was a battlecruiser transition. It definately wasn't unbeatable by a toss, but it was very strong. In HotS that is severely nerfed. (And toss of course also got general boosts such as photon overcharge, MsC high ground vision, DTs cheaper, etc).
Down the line I am hoping blizzard doesn't boost mech in LotV. Simply because they would do it in HotS, and look how that ended.
I'd like to theorycraft some new economy focused, defensive and safe (yes, feel free to say there are none) openings (mech) for TvP (main focus) and TvT, because with current builds I feel like I'm flipping coin and I die to certain things just flat out. Do you have something that works for you? Please, share your experience...
Main points:
TvP: 1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to Blink allin (thinking reactor WM)? 2) Do you go for reactor on your rax? When? 3) Is single WM in your mineral line enough to defend proxy Oracle or do you need Ebay + Turret (5:30 Oracle benchmark)? 4) Would it be possible to go for 2 Armories, then 2 additional Factores and make 1-2 rounds of Hellbats before going into Tanks/Thors? 5) Do you prefer getting fast Raven or Ebay + Turret as your detection (7:30 DT benchmark)? 6) Is it possible to skip Starport at the beginning?
TvT: 1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to 1/1/1 push/contain? 2) What is the best way to deflect gas first cloak banshee build (7:00 benchmark)? 3) When would you build your CC? After rax, factory, or starport? 4) When do you start your Turret ring vs Bio? 5) What do you build from your Starport? Do you continue on Vikings for air superiority? When do you reactor it? 6) Is it possible to skip Starport at the beginning?
Thanks for any answers, I will be trying new builds today and I really want to make solid robus macro oriented build..
1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to Blink allin (thinking reactor WM)? No, i dont see the way to make it possible good toss will always win
2) Do you go for reactor on your rax? When? 15 gas->2 marines->reactor->+4 marines ( total 6 ) in case of 1 base / 2base push reactor is making marines constantly
3) Is single WM in your mineral line enough to defend proxy Oracle or do you need Ebay + Turret (5:30 Oracle benchmark)? yes, it is enough 15 gas->2 marines->reactor->+4marines->fac into reactor -> make hellion+mine 6 marines on natural, WM on the main, hellion scouts WM later moves to 3rd or 4th protoss base to deny it
4) Would it be possible to go for 2 Armories, then 2 additional Factores and make 1-2 rounds of Hellbats before going into Tanks/Thors? before patch no hellbats are useless it is a lot hellbats even without this additional 1-2 rounds you need only 10-12, and 4 hellions for scouting purposes, an some hellbats for drops, not more
5) Do you prefer getting fast Raven or Ebay + Turret as your detection (7:30 DT benchmark)? Raven i have starport i scout with my hellion from the fac if im expecting dts (or if im in the dark) im making raven then banshee without invis if no dts guaranteed im making 2 banshees with invis then raven if stargate it is raven then vikings
6) Is it possible to skip Starport at the beginning? I dont think so There is a build based on fast 6 factories into @200/200 but it sux now
TvT: 1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to 1/1/1 push/contain? sure, bio (but it is hard) but with mech transition i dont see any reason not to build tank
2) What is the best way to deflect gas first cloak banshee build (7:00 benchmark)? 12 rax 13 gas -> 1 marine -> 2gas->fac->reactor on rax->starport +lab on fac-> then make Raven+Invis on lab, 7 marines, 2 mines 1 viking in total, then go tanks and banshee
3) When would you build your CC? After rax, factory, or starport? when you have 400 thats just before tank
more important question is "when to build 3rd" answer ASAP, it is on 7:30-8:30 minute (too complicated question to answer fast)
4) When do you start your Turret ring vs Bio? when i have 3rd base saturated before this moment im controlling space with 2 sensors (on 3rd and on main) + 6 vikings + medivacs with hellbats
5) What do you build from your Starport? Do you continue on Vikings for air superiority? When do you reactor it? vs bio like 6-8 vikings 4-6 medivacs starport works almost constantly vs mech only medivacs for drop vs passive players not more then 4 vikings
there is also mass viking style but i dont like it but its ok
6) Is it possible to skip Starport at the beginning? in tvt? bio
In addition to Vals answers: 1. Somewhere between doubtfull and hell no. If it is a MsC blink all-in I would call it doubtfull. You would need to place them so that they are triggered when blinking to high-ground, but cannot be baited out and then blinking the stalker away. Together with marines and bunkers I guess it could possibly work. If it is observer blink, hell no.
2. Personally I do 13-gas, 1 marine -> reactor
3. You barely see it, but it happens that they wait until two or even three oracles before moving in. Been there, lost to that. Then your widow mine defense looks quite sad.
5. Personally I prefer turrets, because they are multifunctional as anti-oracle. These days when I scout double saturated gas I just finish the ebay block on his natural. Then at least missile turret in main and entrance to natural. Depending on when the toss bothers to destroy it I also already make one at natural.
6. What is the beginning? Depending on your strat you don't necesarily need it early on.
Tvt: 3. Depends completely on your opening.
4. Depends alot on map also. But for sure I want it before I move my army away.
5. Depends on what your opponent does. Personally I try to have air-superiority. So I want to make more vikings than the enemy has. But overdoing it is a bad idea.
Can someone critic my current game plan while meching in TvZ. I don't have replays because I want you to critic my general train of thoughts. My execution is far from being able to execute fully my general strategy plan, so I wanna make sure my strategy is sound before I really focus on my mechanics.
Opener: On large maps I like to do gas first CC first into 2 fact BF. I know its sort of cheesy, but at diamond league I should be able to react and not get hard countered 100% when they scout it. And a lot of Zergs skip roaches these days.
If I detect roaches, I transition into hellbat drops to keep them on the map. Otherwise I go in and kill a lot of drones and figure out what their transition is.
I have plans for 3 different general zerg strats: 1. Muta Roach (and banelings for backup) into Mass muta, possibly double spire. 2. Roach Hydra into Vipers, 3. Mass Muta into Swarmhost transition.
For (1) I like to do a Thor Hellbat +2 Armor timing off of 2 base. And if I can't do critical damage, I transition into 4 bases and play the late late game with mass orbitals, low scv count, and taking only cost effecient engagements. My only problem is if they go fast hive for broodlords so that they get them right when my Thors arrive to their base. Not sure what my reaction should be... Should I scout for hive timing, and simply not attack once they get broodlords? I feel that since I've already invested in 2 base, I need to do critical damage or else I'll be at a massive disadvantage (they have more tech, more bases). If I attack too soon they just make a shitload of roaches and I can't trade cost effectively. So I feel stuck in this case.
For (2) I like to play pure tank mine with a couple of vikings and hellions for scouting/map control. I'll be behind in the midgame and as long as I can defend my third (pain in the ass on Bel Shir) I can slowly get the advantage again due to a much more cost effecient army. I do constant hellbat drops if they like to be on the map, taking potshots at my expansions or whatever. They eventually wisen up and keep enough roaches at home for me to push out and secure my 4th.
I'll do a prehive push if I feel that they're rushing to vipers, otherwise, I just keep a good tank spread, simcity, and an increasing viking count to deal with vipers, and mines are unaffected by blinding cloud so Viper's aren't too troublesome. From here I usually prepare for an air switch and start upgrading air weapons, taking note of that game where flash went mech, did a great timing, got his fourth, but fell apart due to vipers and not enough vikings.
Having air (and extra orbitals) means banshees should do just fine versus hydras, esp with Raven and Thor support since those 2 units are super supply effecient. Banshees are also much easier to counter swarmhosts with than tanks. The goal is to get 3/3 upgrades and eventually win through constant cost effecient engagements.
(3) I actually have the hardest time against. If I don't do critical damage with my BFH timing (queen wall, or lots of spines) I'll be relatively even midgame but I lose a lot of map control from fast'ish mutas. Even if I don't take a ton of damage, I'll be spending a lot of money on turrets and usually my army size is really small until I get sufficient turrets. So I can't attack until I have enough turrets, and when I do attack he'll have his swarmhosts just in time, forcing me to take a cost in-effecient engagement/trade armies which I can't afford off 3 base. Not sure if I detect no roaches should I simply opt for a 2 base timing as well in this case like case 1? Or is it better to do constant hellbat drops to force roaches (and delay their swarmhost?). Should I be building tanks to accompany my push to fight the first 5 or 6 swarmhosts?
On October 31 2013 22:38 Everlong wrote: I'd like to theorycraft some new economy focused, defensive and safe (yes, feel free to say there are none) openings (mech) for TvP (main focus) and TvT, because with current builds I feel like I'm flipping coin and I die to certain things just flat out. Do you have something that works for you? Please, share your experience...
TvT: 1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to 1/1/1 push/contain? 2) What is the best way to deflect gas first cloak banshee build (7:00 benchmark)?
Yes, you can use gas 15 expand into Hellions/Vikings with a Raven (Marine Marine reactor CC fact port; after 6 Marines, land fact on the reactor to make Hellions, the rax makes a lab; once the Starport is done, land it on the lab to produce a Viking then a Raven; second gas around 5'15 - 5'30). Keep both scans until your Raven is out. Hellions, Autoturret(s) and landed Vikings can defend a Marines/Tanks/whatever push, with a SCV pull if necessary if it's a one-base/delayed expand variant.
Alternatively, with the same opening (gas 15 expand), you can use a Marines/Tanks/Vikings defence with Turrets and 1-2 Mine(s), then go your mech transition. See Ryung vs MMA, Newkirk, SC2L Playoffs [game starts at ~01:01:00].
On October 31 2013 22:38 Everlong wrote: 6) Is it possible to skip Starport at the beginning?
Nope, the early Starport tech is critical for mech, whether you get harassment units (Medivac/Banshees) or combat/defensive ones (Vikings and a Raven).
I would like some feedback from one of you fine mech players I'm a high diamond player, and I've been stuck between high diamond/low masters for a long time now. I want to improve.
Currently, I'm meching in all three matchups. In TvT, I'm just playing typical positional mech with tank/hellion/viking with other units as needed. I love that, position wars are super fun, I don't need help there as there are plenty of professional games for me to learn from in that area.
In TvZ, I was inspired by Flash's 3 base timing vs DRG on Derelict Watcher from IEM New York, game 1. I've been using this general idea in all my TvZ games, and as such have made my general gameplan to reaper expand into hellion+banshee harass into a 3 base 2/2 tank/hellion/banshee/thor timing, and I move out when I scout the infestation pit (as that determines my opponent is either going for swarmhosts or viper, which both counter mech hard), so it yields a nice moment of weakness when I can catch Zerg unprepared. Does this sound like a solid plan? Is there something else I should keep in mind while doing this? And does it work on all maps, or are there some where this simply won't work?
In TvP, I'm really unsure of what to do. My gameplan has been similar to my TvZ, but is a bit more heavy on units and less so on upgrades. I usually do 12/12 reaper scout>reactored marines and use that to determine my opponent's plan and change my opening accordingly, reacting to whether he's going aggressive or simply fast expanding. My general goal is to use tank/turret/banshee to secure my third, at which case one of two things usually happen. 1.) My opponent doesn't like my quick third, and attacks with some kind of heavy gateway composition with either immortals or void rays mixed in, which I generally crush and then attack with tank/banshee/hellion with 5 fact thor/hellbat rallied behind for a death push: 2.) My opponent also takes a third, and then slowly tries to tech toward immortal/archon or stargate, and I react accordingly by pushing quickly with my current composition while rallying 5 fact hellion/thor+banshee to kill if he goes ground, or I throw down a reactored starport, crank out vikings and then push for the kill if he goes air. The thing is, I think my opponents are just bad vs. mech, and I would like to know if there is any way to work with this idea (three base timing) vs P, or if I need to get myself used to the idea of playing a turtle game until I get ghost+raven?
If these don't work, are there any other mech timings that I could use that are more effective in either TvZ or TvP? I would prefer to avoid "turtle" play, if possible, but I will understand if there's nothing viable.
I'm happy to submit replays if it will help you judge my gameplan. Thank you for your time.
On November 01 2013 07:10 CakeSauc3 wrote: I would like some feedback from one of you fine mech players I'm a high diamond player, and I've been stuck between high diamond/low masters for a long time now. I want to improve.
Currently, I'm meching in all three matchups. In TvT, I'm just playing typical positional mech with tank/hellion/viking with other units as needed. I love that, position wars are super fun, I don't need help there as there are plenty of professional games for me to learn from in that area.
In TvZ, I was inspired by Flash's 3 base timing vs DRG on Derelict Watcher from IEM New York, game 1. I've been using this general idea in all my TvZ games, and as such have made my general gameplan to reaper expand into hellion+banshee harass into a 3 base 2/2 tank/hellion/banshee/thor timing, and I move out when I scout the infestation pit (as that determines my opponent is either going for swarmhosts or viper, which both counter mech hard), so it yields a nice moment of weakness when I can catch Zerg unprepared. Does this sound like a solid plan? Is there something else I should keep in mind while doing this? And does it work on all maps, or are there some where this simply won't work?
In TvP, I'm really unsure of what to do. My gameplan has been similar to my TvZ, but is a bit more heavy on units and less so on upgrades. I usually do 12/12 reaper scout>reactored marines and use that to determine my opponent's plan and change my opening accordingly, reacting to whether he's going aggressive or simply fast expanding. My general goal is to use tank/turret/banshee to secure my third, at which case one of two things usually happen. 1.) My opponent doesn't like my quick third, and attacks with some kind of heavy gateway composition with either immortals or void rays mixed in, which I generally crush and then attack with tank/banshee/hellion with 5 fact thor/hellbat rallied behind for a death push: 2.) My opponent also takes a third, and then slowly tries to tech toward immortal/archon or stargate, and I react accordingly by pushing quickly with my current composition while rallying 5 fact hellion/thor+banshee to kill if he goes ground, or I throw down a reactored starport, crank out vikings and then push for the kill if he goes air. The thing is, I think my opponents are just bad vs. mech, and I would like to know if there is any way to work with this idea (three mech timing) vs P, or if I need to get myself used to the idea of playing a turtle game until I get ghost+raven?
If these don't work, are there any other mech timings that I could use that are more effective in either TvZ or TvP? I would prefer to avoid "turtle" play, if possible, but I will understand if there's nothing viable.
I'm happy to submit replays if it will help you judge my gameplan. Thank you for your time.
On November 01 2013 07:10 CakeSauc3 wrote: I would like some feedback from one of you fine mech players I'm a high diamond player, and I've been stuck between high diamond/low masters for a long time now. I want to improve.
Currently, I'm meching in all three matchups. In TvT, I'm just playing typical positional mech with tank/hellion/viking with other units as needed. I love that, position wars are super fun, I don't need help there as there are plenty of professional games for me to learn from in that area.
In TvZ, I was inspired by Flash's 3 base timing vs DRG on Derelict Watcher from IEM New York, game 1. I've been using this general idea in all my TvZ games, and as such have made my general gameplan to reaper expand into hellion+banshee harass into a 3 base 2/2 tank/hellion/banshee/thor timing, and I move out when I scout the infestation pit (as that determines my opponent is either going for swarmhosts or viper, which both counter mech hard), so it yields a nice moment of weakness when I can catch Zerg unprepared. Does this sound like a solid plan? Is there something else I should keep in mind while doing this? And does it work on all maps, or are there some where this simply won't work?
In TvP, I'm really unsure of what to do. My gameplan has been similar to my TvZ, but is a bit more heavy on units and less so on upgrades. I usually do 12/12 reaper scout>reactored marines and use that to determine my opponent's plan and change my opening accordingly, reacting to whether he's going aggressive or simply fast expanding. My general goal is to use tank/turret/banshee to secure my third, at which case one of two things usually happen. 1.) My opponent doesn't like my quick third, and attacks with some kind of heavy gateway composition with either immortals or void rays mixed in, which I generally crush and then attack with tank/banshee/hellion with 5 fact thor/hellbat rallied behind for a death push: 2.) My opponent also takes a third, and then slowly tries to tech toward immortal/archon or stargate, and I react accordingly by pushing quickly with my current composition while rallying 5 fact hellion/thor+banshee to kill if he goes ground, or I throw down a reactored starport, crank out vikings and then push for the kill if he goes air. The thing is, I think my opponents are just bad vs. mech, and I would like to know if there is any way to work with this idea (three mech timing) vs P, or if I need to get myself used to the idea of playing a turtle game until I get ghost+raven?
If these don't work, are there any other mech timings that I could use that are more effective in either TvZ or TvP? I would prefer to avoid "turtle" play, if possible, but I will understand if there's nothing viable.
I'm happy to submit replays if it will help you judge my gameplan. Thank you for your time.
Thanks a lot of the response! I'm looking at the replay and trying to analyze it, there's a lot to take in though.
I really like how you avoided playing a turtle game once you've secured a fourth base, and you were constantly putting pressure on with hellbat drops and how you favor ghosts as a primary function in your army.
Two questions I had:
1.) I saw you open with a marine/hellion poke with a mine drop, but I wasn't sure how you were able to rule out oracle or blink play. Was there a specific timing that you saw with your scv that ruled that out? Usually when I see double gas from P and no super fast expo, I get suspicious, but you felt comfortable just moving out instead of bunkering up.
2.) There was a phase in the game where you went heavy widow mine. I'm not sure if I understand the transition - was it because your opponent began favoring immortal/zealot? I haven't really considered the use of widow mines in my mech army, I'm just curious. Thanks!
On October 31 2013 23:52 Val_ wrote: 1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to Blink allin (thinking reactor WM)? No, i dont see the way to make it possible good toss will always win
Some of my TvPs I open double reactor Hellion, and I consider it a pretty strong set-up vs Blink plays. They rarely get detection and once you scout it you can pump out so many Mines that 1-shot the Stalkers as soon as they move into your base.
Of course, if they do get detection (and I've had a regular Blink cheeser do this to me explicitly because he recognised that I went mines against him before) you just get a BO loss..
Damn this is a lot of good information! I used to play Protoss(for 3 weeks) but I wanted to switch to mech just seemed more fun to do! But I have a question about upgrades. First of all when i see the movies its all about upgrading all the time with 1 armory its always weapons first and than armor. With 2 its the same time, is this correct? and what are the times for getting free hellion/bat switch and blue flame, and drills? Thanks again for the great info!
Obviously it is just an example and it is for illustrative purposes. There are lots of little things you can adjust for specific matchups. But overall I think it is pretty safe and solid build.
If you scout some 1 base schenenigans, you just keep Marine production, 2-3 Tanks, Raven (and maybe ebay) and float your CC to natural when you feel safe.
If you scout greedy openings, you can skip Tanks and make just a few Marines and get fast 3rd CC.
The key part in this build are 2 Armories and fast Raven transition (Instead of Ghosts TvP).
If you feel like you need more production, you can add 4/5th Factory before going into Ravens (I'd actually suggest doing so most of the time)
You can skip 2nd armory and 3rd cc and go for timing push from 2 bases, it catches most people off guard since everyone expects mech to build slowly.
On November 05 2013 22:33 SC2Toastie wrote: Opinions on the new maps? I'm saddened.
If you take appropriate approach to mech on large maps you should be ok with those maps. One of my favourite maps to play mech TvP on is Whirlwind and I can't wait to try it on Alterzim.. :-)
All the builds I can find in this thread are match up dependent. Is there a beginner, single TvX build order I could use in lower level play to get used to mech feel and macro? Possibly with some macro benchmarks, as well?
On November 06 2013 20:16 hfsrj wrote: As a lower league player, just make worker and army continuously. Seriously, you win.
I understand that. In fact that's the entire reason I'm asking. If I didn't think this was true, I would be more worried about composition, micro, etc. However I think that in the environment of a single build, it becomes easier to make units and production consistently as you can identify things such as 'this structure is late' or 'I should have more workers at this point.' That's why I was asking for a single build.
On November 07 2013 05:44 Val_ wrote: as mech gml terran i can say that i think mech is not for non experienced players too much specifics
play bio it will learn you to macro properly and builds/scouting is a bit easier
I do play bio, for now. I was just interested in getting my feet wet with a little bit of mech. To be honest I was mostly going to use the build in custom games with friends to get a sense of it.
Mech requires having a real indepth knowledge of the other races in general and knowing how the other races play against mech. You need to really need to know all the moves that the opponent can make, when they can make them and what are the tells of those moves.
Best way to learn that is to watch pro streams. My favourite one is http://www.twitch.tv/dzerzhinsky. Unlike other notable mech players there is no bm assosiated with him (eg like avilo, nothing against him, its just that its common to see the chat get toxic sometimes from my experience) and i think he has the some of the best late game play out of any meching terran which is ideal to learn from as mech only gets stronger as the game goes by. He aint the best by any means, just a very nice stream to learn from imo. Low apm and clear openings make it easy to learn and copy.
Also learning how to play it one mu at a time is advised. TvT is very unforgiving but will really test your ability to deal with defending multi pronged attacks and ability to play positionally where as TvZ will test your ability toscout and read your opponent. Not seeing that tech switch can be game ending when playing mech, eg having no aa then dealing with 10-20 mutas with no warning. Also i find having a good tvz helps build confidence going into the late game. Once you are on 4base with mech you can out trade opponents with 2-3 more bases than you with constant favourable fights (exception tvp because "insert choice of toss is op reference here")
I play defensive mech, Master league, got placed into Diamond this season, should be promoted back soon as long as I can figure out the maps.
Last season I thought Yeonsu and Polar Night would be horrible mech maps but they are actually alright (maybe the best mech maps in the current map pool?).
I don't like Derelict Watcher as any non TvZ matchup seems to be quite difficult on it, it's also a dumb map overall. TvP on it is a nightmare as taking a 4th seems impossible without getting some other base sniped.
Frost seems to be absolutely terrible but to be fair I only played a single mech game on it (and I won), it just looks scary with all the bases and attack paths. So I veto'd it right away last season.
Star Station...mehh, I don't like it, expanding on it is kind of weird BUT with the new version it's harder to sneak in ninja bases and it's also easier to deny/kill enemy bases on it. I'm still not sure if I should play it, if i figure out the key points to defend on it, it might not turn out so bad.
Belshir...I never liked it, it's also old and kind of dumb as well.
Alterzim....LOL, played a TvP on it and it's so fucking huge, jesus christ. It was horrible because Terran can't just spawn units anywhere on the map and the fact that mech is actually much slower than bio just makes it all worse. I guess it's not too bad in NON-TvP matchups, where you can actually defend bases without comitting your whole army to that.
So basically I'm kind lost here guys, I must summon the help of Dzerzhinsky, Lyyna, Avilo and other high level defensive mech players, which ones would you veto? So far mine are:
Belshir Derelict Alterzim
I really wanna veto Frost but I'm not sure about Derelict and Belshir though. My problem with these maps overall is playing TvP on them (but I guess that's a problem with mech in general >.<), I don't mind the other two matchups so much. So far my only "sure" veto is Alterzim, I can change the other two if you guys can convince me of it :D
Thx! I just watched Dzerz' TvZ and really like it a lot. Doesn't even look too difficult to pull off (even with my slow hands). Also the Roach drop defense was very nice. Can't wait to watch the TvP as well.
On a sidenote: The casting style is very nice, explaining very well what's going on!
On November 12 2013 20:50 BurningRanger wrote: Thx! I just watched Dzerz' TvZ and really like it a lot. Doesn't even look too difficult to pull off (even with my slow hands). Also the Roach drop defense was very nice. Can't wait to watch the TvP as well.
On a sidenote: The casting style is very nice, explaining very well what's going on!
Yeah, I've had opponents and clan-mates say that this style is "easy to pull off", what they don't realize is there is an infinite ammount of random things you can die to at any point in the game, and players like DZ already have a really deep understanding of the workings of mech AND the other races in general (check AlaxWayLaxed's post above, he nailed it), you don't need stellar mechanics to pull it off but you need a lot of experience, planning ahead and fine tuning of each of your builds to make this work at higher levels.
If this was easy a lot of people would be sucessfully doing it on the ladder, what happens in reality is that bored Terran players will "try out some mech" and get absolutely raped on the ladder (despite having 200apm) and give it up after a few games. Check out Bunny's statement about mech on the last episode of Meta.
Ok, I have to admit my statement was a bit oversimplified. What I meant is that it's mechanically less demanding, so even I could pull it off with my ridiculous low APM. You're right that you still need a deep understanding. That's actually the point why I like it so much. I don't have the time to practice mechanics, but I have time to think about strategic decisions, about what should work where and when or not.
Mech is not something that you can "try out some". I've even seen pros try it and do major mistakes resulting in a loss (and then people who don't understand it take that game as a prime example for how Mech can't work). Mech isn't called the 4th race for nothing. You have to learn it from scratch like you'd have to do when switching to Zerg or Protoss.
On November 12 2013 21:47 BurningRanger wrote: Ok, I have to admit my statement was a bit oversimplified. What I meant is that it's mechanically less demanding, so even I could pull it off with my ridiculous low APM. You're right that you still need a deep understanding. That's actually the point why I like it so much. I don't have the time to practice mechanics, but I have time to think about strategic decisions, about what should work where and when or not.
Mech is not something that you can "try out some". I've even seen pros try it and do major mistakes resulting in a loss (and then people who don't understand it take that game as a prime example for how Mech can't work). Mech isn't called the 4th race for nothing. You have to learn it from scratch like you'd have to do when switching to Zerg or Protoss.
Dzerz has a low APM too; around 60 iirc (I'm sure he'll post to clarify!) so yeah it's quite possible even for folks with lower APM. But that's not to take anything away from the style though, because people often think that mech can be a simple "make tank, make thor, make hellbat, 1a" kinda thing - when it really isn't. You have to be perfect with your scouting, reactions, tactical positioning, composition choices, and many other facets that make it a really difficult task to undertake.
It's partly why I've never really considered TvP mech "impossible" - it just takes those things I mentioned above to a ridiculous level because you have to deal with some of the "hard counter" stuff that Protoss can bring into the fold. It's not impossible, you just have to play at an immaculate level, one small slip up and you're dead.
How do you guys figure one should open against a protoss player now?
Just someone who opens oracle into nexus into 3-4 oracles for general harass, I'm having a really hard time with just reactor marines and wouldn't want to spam missile turrets everywhere so early on.
On November 13 2013 22:24 Bagi wrote: How do you guys figure one should open against a protoss player now?
Just someone who opens oracle into nexus into 3-4 oracles for general harass, I'm having a really hard time with just reactor marines and wouldn't want to spam missile turrets everywhere so early on.
If you don't do all-in, then any mech matchups need to have a lot of turrents.
On November 13 2013 00:10 Lyyna wrote: By the way, since i see i'm not in the stream list in the op , and i started to stream again few weeks ago. . :p http://www.twitch.tv/lyyna
I tried to copy Dzerz' style yesterday (although my opening is somewhat different).
TvZ on Yeonsu: http://ggtracker.com/matches/4360822 He tried to bust me and I didn't react quick enough. Maybe I could have saved some more units. After checking the replay, I probably should have moved out immediately to pressure him. Then later I should have placed some turrets at edges. The Nydus worms were too effective. Anyways, I think my biggest problem on this map was that I didn't know how to take a 4th, so eventually I lost a war of attrition. Up to the 3rd it's quite easy to take and hold them, but how do I take a 4th (I guess it should be the one next to the natural?) without opening up the 3rd (and main behind it) too much? Also the 4th here is quite open so the opponent can come from all sides at once. On a sidenote, the opponent was a bit bm (premature gg into losing all his stuff :D ). He even wasted some time telling me how bad I am after the game (as if I didn't know that myself ).
TvP on Derelict Watcher: http://ggtracker.com/matches/4360823 Here I can actually get up to 4 bases and be quite fine. I think I have quite nice positioning, throw PDDs against Tempest shots, and hunt those down with Vikings. 1 mistake I see is getting BCs. They don't do much else than getting feedbacked. More Vikings would have been better I guess. Quite a difference to Dzerz' game above, the Protoss did go very Air heavy. I didn't know exactly how to react. Throw away all the Tanks and replace them with more Thors and Vikings? I was a bit too afraid of his HTs for that I guess. Also the Voidrays bugged me a bit, because PDDs don't catch their shots. All that made me too afraid to move out, which I would have needed to keep him from taking the whole map.
Any tips would be very much appreciated. Just a warning, the games are very long. Oh, and it's just Silver level (dropped down from Gold now ) so the macro is rather crappy.
Hey BurningRanger. I sped through your two replays, so my comments will be pretty general, but hopefully they'll help.
In the TvZ, if you check the units lost tab you were ridiculously cost effective -- but killing twice as many units doesn't matter if he's mining three times as much. So you were right to identify the major problem that you never got a fourth up.
For a mech/sky army I consider 4 bases to be the minimum necessary to really get the army going properly, with 5 being the point where you can lose significant chunks and still afford to replace it. How you do this really depends on the map, but it's usually going to involve careful consideration of which base to take and where to position your army/PFs.
For example, on Yeonsu I like to expand horizontally, because even though the third is slightly harder to hold, it makes the fourth much easier. To do this I put an OC at the base, but a PF in the centre of the largest gap (alongside a full wall-off). The PF helps to neutralise the many attack paths, since with the walloff you can have your army well defended from all of them. This also makes it easier to defend the natural at the same time, since the bases are so close.
On a related note, you should always check for opportunities to snipe one of his bases to limit his income. This might be something as simple as a-moving a bunch of Hellbats somewhere you think he expanded, or as complex as multi-pronged Thor drops (not something I do, but I've seen others do it very effectively). In this case, you could easily have taken out the base below your third just by dropping some auto-turrets at it with your Ravens.
Smaller things I noticed.
At the start you built a Marine, which is fine (it's also what I do), but you didn't use it for anything. I personally think it's always worth a quick scout for Overlords to see if you can get a free kill. In this case you could have gotten one easily as it ran right at your main ramp.
You built your CC really far away from the natural. If you don't feel confident building it on the low ground, you should build it near the cliff so it can float over earlier.
You stopped upgrading for a long time. These are very important, and mech benefits a lot from them. For a rough benchmark, I've been finishing 3/3 at around 18:30 minutes when I open defensively.
You never really built macro-OCs, but you had the money to. In the late game you want to get at least 9 OCs, and then throw away all non-gas/repair SCVs to maximise your army. And on the subject of repair SCVs, you should bring some with you when moving out -- I usually take around 8 or so. They help a lot during battles, and then leave your army as good as new when the second Zerg army rolls in.
You noted yourself, but your Nydus/drop defence didn't exist. Having turrets set up for this is essential, as is keeping your eyes open to kill off a Nydus immediately. The latter is just a matter of training your eyes to stay on the minimap.
In the TvP, I think it's really a game you could have won. Again some of the same themes crop up -- late of OCs, failure to upgrade, etc. But where you fell down was in your composition and positioning during the battle.
The main problem here was that you scouted him doing a full air switch, but you didn't really switch yourself. Part of this, I think, was because you were maxed. But you should realise that in situations where you have a load of Tanks and nothing to shoot with them it's worthwhile just throwing them away to replace them with more useful units. As a bonus, if you send them round the edge of the map towards a 4th or 5th or whatever you can quite often score a kill before the Protoss reacts.
Fortunately he didn't use his advantage early on and let you get some air up, but when the battle came he really walked through you. You had some nice micro to pick of Tempests, but I'll just go through the basic facts as I see them when fighting SkyToss.
Voidrays are the worst unit the Protoss can get unless they're catching you totally off-guard. The solution to them is to put your Thors in splash mode and make sure they're targetting the centre of the group (Voids clump a tonne), and, more importantly, to use the Seeker Missile ability on your Ravens to splash them -- I think 2(?) will kill a clump or Voids, or at least come close.
Carriers. These can be tricky. If someone is just massing Carriers what you really want is Battlecruisers, since Yamato is so strong (2-shots per Carrier) and the units are so tanky. However, if the Protoss is also getting a lot of Tempests, Battlecruisers are awful (they take over 90 damage per Tempest shot). In this case (and in my games I always assume from the start that it will be the case) you want Ravens and Vikings. You'll need to target fire the Vikings to make sure they're not shoowing Interceptors and, again most importantly, Seeker Missile all the Carriers. Like the Voids, Carriers clump up a lot, and they're too slow to really consider running away. The burst damage of the HSM is what lowers them enough to be dealt with by the fragile Vikings and low-dps Thors.
Tempests. Trust Blizzard to make mech viable by adding in a hard counter. But they can be easily dealt with, again, by Vikings and Ravens, just like you were. Storm is tough to deal with as Vikigns are so fragile, but good Tanks positioning and EMPs can even the playing field.
So, for the battle you were fighting there, I'd have done a few things differently. Primarily I'd have put my Thors in splash mode and targetted them at Voids, I'd have used the Ravens to Seeker Missile the Voids/Carriers, and I'd have had my Battlecruisers in the fight to Yamato the Carriers (though realistically I'd never have built them -- I'd have spent all that supply on Ravens and Vikings),
That was a bit more than I intended to write, and I'm far too lazy to proof read it all... hope it makes sense and is somewhat useful.
Hi Dzerzhinsky, first of all... Thank You so much for spending the time to watch those long replays of mine and writing up so many tips. They make perfect sense. I'm quite happy that you're coming to some conclusions that I saw as well. It tells me that I'm not too far off the track. More important are certainly the things I didn't see myself (e.g. the late upgrades and army compositions). I guess there's not much more to say for me. I don't want to seem like searching for excuses. I will work on the things you pointed out and try to improve my play. Thanks again, it's greatly appreciated!
Hello, what do you do if the zerg masses mutalisk? Mass turrets costs a lot and thors too, you can't get enought thors to kill all mutas because they magic box... Any tips?
On November 18 2013 17:11 GuiRao wrote: Hello, what do you do if the zerg masses mutalisk? Mass turrets costs a lot and thors too, you can't get enought thors to kill all mutas because they magic box... Any tips?
First of all, mass Mutas do cost a lot, too. So you should be able to get a bunch of Thors up (about 4 Thors together can beat like infinite amounts of Mutas). Add Ravens so you can throw PDDs on your Thors. Pull SCVs to repair then. You can also try to HSM the Mutas, but it's a gamble. It may make him run all the Mutas away to not eat the HSM. If he's good he just flys the targeted one away and you've won nothing. If he's even better he will fly that one into some of your units for friendly fire. Mass Turrets are still fine btw. You usually have the minerals spare anyways. They're also mainly to buy time to get your Thors over there to defend.
On November 18 2013 17:46 GuiRao wrote: 4 Thors can beat infinite number of mutas? Even if he magic box the mutalisk? It's hard to belive...
Well, eventually they will fall, if they're not repaired certainly, but yes, even if the Mutas are magic boxed, a lot of them will die. Just think about how many Mutas are needed to get 4 Thors down. Mutas have a quite short range, so in these high numbers it's near impossible to not have some of them stacked. Even if they're so far spread out, they can't all attack 1 Thor at once. The damage will be spread over the Thors, which makes those live even longer. Now just add a few PDDs and a bunch of SCVs for repairs and the Thors are invincible (vs. Mutas).
On November 18 2013 17:46 GuiRao wrote: 4 Thors can beat infinite number of mutas? Even if he magic box the mutalisk? It's hard to belive...
For me too. I have lost often enough when moving out with 5-6 thors to simply mass mutas. Sure possibly the thors are cost effective against magic boxed mutas, however considering all your tanks and hellbats are useless he doesn't need to cost effectively beat the thors, since the cost effectiveness comes automatically when killing all your tanks for free.
And if you mass thors + hellbats only he can easily do a roach or swarmhost switch.
Thats tbh a problem I often have with pro replays of zerg vs mech terran. Sure those zerg players have way better macro, micro, etc compared to my opponents. But also often they make really weird choices against mech, instead of just using the default counters to mech that my opponents do seem to be able to find. A while ago I saw a TvZ where it was indeed hellbats + thors vs lings + mutas. The zerg still beat the mech army (and managed to lose later on), but why would you make that composition in the first place when you scouted your opponent went for hellbat thors. My opponents then pretty much always would simply mass swarmhosts or roaches and kill me.
well with the merged upgrades, if you are in a late game situation against a muta player and he is magic boxing your thors effectively then you can switch to bcs. bcs rape mutas with their decent dps and high armour and in order to kill bcs your opponent has to go hydra or corrupter and both of those units are fairly easy to counter when playing as mech
A raven viking squad, even if small (2 raven and 4 vikes for example) is great AA support to have throughout the game for those just in case moments. PDD is really good vs mutas. I think pdd has 200 energy with each shot using 10 energy. Thats a few seconds of free dps to help your thors or turrets stay alive.
Also, a key thing for everyone with thors, think of them like you think of the tank, space control except for the air. while with good splits you can negate the splash, the thor makes it so the zerg has to control his mutas correctly, its no longer something they can choose to do or not do, it is something they HAVE to do. Before that the zerg can do as he pleases with his mutas and get away with it but as soon as you have 2-4 thors out he has to control perfectly or else a volley from your thor squad will decimate him. With space control units like the tank and thor its not so much about waiting for him to a-move into your army and die, rather its about forcing the mistakes from your opponent.
I have always meched TvZ and it is by far my best matchup. I usually open with a fast WM marine drop while I take my natural and build my wall and get out my first tank. Then I play defensive and slowly switch to a mech sky Terran army, and lots of PF turrets sensor towers. I really enjoy these games, and I am getting decent vs swarm hosts and ultras.
I tried TvP mech for many months using a lot of HTOMario and others as guides, but a couple months ago I got so frustrated with the matchup (deathball, immortals) I went back to bio. Bio is ok, but I keep dying to storms as I have poor micro and low apm. After this patch I am trying mech TvP again. It seems better now (still hard though) as I do notice the impact of combined upgrades since I incorporate a lot of sky Terran with my mech and I never use widow mines past the early game. I find the banshee mid and late game to be very useful, especially when you snipe the observers and cloak. Then because the new maps are so huge sky Terran is better than tanks and thors for sniping their 4th or 5th because the air units fly faster. I'm enjoying TvP mech/sky in the new patch.
Hi guys. I saw the game between Supernova and Panic today on GSLTV and really liked Supernova's TvP mech build. For those might interested here's the link: http://www.gomtv.net/2013gstls2/vod/80902. It's a gas first opener into helions into a big push around 16-18 minutes on 3-0 upgrades. the composition is mainly tank/hellbat. If anybody else thinks this is genius please contact me. I'd like to share replays and help others to figure this build out. I could also provide the build order. Just let me know. I'm only a gold player. But I did it today 3 games on ladder and won every one of those. It seems to hit right at this sweet spot before mass air.
On November 21 2013 06:45 t0n!ght wrote: Hi guys. I saw the game between Supernova and Panic today on GSLTV and really liked Supernova's TvP mech build. For those might interested here's the link: http://www.gomtv.net/2013gstls2/vod/80902. It's a gas first opener into helions into a big push around 16-18 minutes on 3-0 upgrades. the composition is mainly tank/hellbat. If anybody else thinks this is genius please contact me. I'd like to share replays and help others to figure this build out. I could also provide the build order. Just let me know. I'm only a gold player. But I did it today 3 games on ladder and won every one of those. It seems to hit right at this sweet spot before mass air.
It was interesting ofc, but this game want basically perfectly for him. Panic didn't really scout what was going on before 12 min when he randomly charged into a 2 bases-"shitload of tanks" setup, Supernova's harass went perfectly (Panic had like 50 probes at 18 minutes..), and the protoss splitted his already small army, losing nearly all his stalkers to 3 tanks for a few scvs, and getting his others units trapped...ended in a nearly maxed mech army with a protoss having 1 archon, a few immortal and stalkers
Ofc it's interesting play, and this is really nice to see mech TvP at that lvl, but in that particular game it was basically the best scenario possible for Supernova
On November 21 2013 06:45 t0n!ght wrote: Hi guys. I saw the game between Supernova and Panic today on GSLTV and really liked Supernova's TvP mech build. For those might interested here's the link: http://www.gomtv.net/2013gstls2/vod/80902. It's a gas first opener into helions into a big push around 16-18 minutes on 3-0 upgrades. the composition is mainly tank/hellbat. If anybody else thinks this is genius please contact me. I'd like to share replays and help others to figure this build out. I could also provide the build order. Just let me know. I'm only a gold player. But I did it today 3 games on ladder and won every one of those. It seems to hit right at this sweet spot before mass air.
Anyone having more success in mech TvP post patch?
I personally have been doing a variation of the 2-2 tank/hellbat push where instead of adding vikings I go pure banshee (assuming no heavy stargate play) and so far it seems quite powerful. I just open typical reaper expand into 1-1-1 into mine/marine/hellion drop depending on what I scout then switch into techlab and never stop building banshees. Use the banshees to deal some damage if the toss neglects his defenses and possibly delay the third, but keep them alive. Cloak is obviously necessary to avoid getting feedbacked.
So when the big push hits once you are nearing maxed you'll probably have 6-7 banshees at least which actually really help dealing with immortals while your hellbat/tank mops up the rest. The only thing they have to kill your banshees is usually archons which can be avoided with some micro and HT/stalker which die very very quickly to tank fire. A few times I've had very even battles where all I'm left with are a few tanks and the banshees, yet the stalkers they warp in can't really scratch them and I end up doing major damage such at sniping the third anyway.
After this push I transition into viking/raven but considering that banshees are only 25 gas more than vikings and supply/build time isn't as big of a limiting factor in these timings, they seem to have great synergy with the push. The only time I really get thrashed is when the toss managed to hide his stargates from me, or when I lose to some random 2-base blink all in.
What is your armory/upgrade/push timing for this 2-2 Tank/Hellbat push Bagi? I really like the idea of it, as i prefer to mech in all match-ups myself. The things that lose me a lot of games in TvP mech is A) My positioning/Getting caught in a bad spot. B) Unit comp/Bad scouting and C) Being behind on upgrades due to not really having a solid time in mind to throw down double Armory.
Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it. Any tips TL?
On November 26 2013 13:14 InfectedGoat wrote: Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it. Any tips TL?
Getting a critical mass of tanks will kill of locusts waves easy and you want to transition into ravens to use hsm to kill the sh off and in order to not loose units to locusts you will want to hid behind some pfs.
On November 26 2013 13:14 InfectedGoat wrote: Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it. Any tips TL?
Make tanks, add in ravens, then later vikings. With the combined upgrades, your vikings are now pretty effective against mutalisks (as a mech player).
Throw mass turrets because you have the minerals to burn - even before he does mutalisk switch. Also make lots of hellion runbys to abuse the immobility of SHs, which is again another mineral sink.
On November 26 2013 05:53 Bagi wrote: Anyone having more success in mech TvP post patch?
I personally have been doing a variation of the 2-2 tank/hellbat push where instead of adding vikings I go pure banshee (assuming no heavy stargate play) and so far it seems quite powerful. I just open typical reaper expand into 1-1-1 into mine/marine/hellion drop depending on what I scout then switch into techlab and never stop building banshees. Use the banshees to deal some damage if the toss neglects his defenses and possibly delay the third, but keep them alive. Cloak is obviously necessary to avoid getting feedbacked.
So when the big push hits once you are nearing maxed you'll probably have 6-7 banshees at least which actually really help dealing with immortals while your hellbat/tank mops up the rest. The only thing they have to kill your banshees is usually archons which can be avoided with some micro and HT/stalker which die very very quickly to tank fire. A few times I've had very even battles where all I'm left with are a few tanks and the banshees, yet the stalkers they warp in can't really scratch them and I end up doing major damage such at sniping the third anyway.
After this push I transition into viking/raven but considering that banshees are only 25 gas more than vikings and supply/build time isn't as big of a limiting factor in these timings, they seem to have great synergy with the push. The only time I really get thrashed is when the toss managed to hide his stargates from me, or when I lose to some random 2-base blink all in.
On November 26 2013 13:14 InfectedGoat wrote: Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it. Any tips TL?
I'd like to add, throw PDDs in front of your tanks, if Locusts come too close. They block the Locust shots. It also gives you a little more time to reposition tanks (e.g. leapfrogging closer to the SH between waves). For the split attacks you'll have to split your tanks and Ravens too and build PFs at expos.
On November 26 2013 13:14 InfectedGoat wrote: Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it. Any tips TL?
Make tanks, add in ravens, then later vikings. With the combined upgrades, your vikings are now pretty effective against mutalisks (as a mech player).
Throw mass turrets because you have the minerals to burn - even before he does mutalisk switch. Also make lots of hellion runbys to abuse the immobility of SHs, which is again another mineral sink.
However with mutas into swarmhosts he will have mutas left, which make hellion runbys really a mineral sink, as in they all get intercepted. (At least that happens to mine, maybe doing something wrong).
And my main problem is always that if I go mass vikings he comes with ultras or simply overwelms with mutas, if I go thors he gets broodlords/vipers/more swarmhosts, and with mass tanks he gets also air. Since for zerg tech switching is so fast I am never able to not get hardcountered.
On November 26 2013 13:14 InfectedGoat wrote: Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it. Any tips TL?
Make tanks, add in ravens, then later vikings. With the combined upgrades, your vikings are now pretty effective against mutalisks (as a mech player).
Throw mass turrets because you have the minerals to burn - even before he does mutalisk switch. Also make lots of hellion runbys to abuse the immobility of SHs, which is again another mineral sink.
However with mutas into swarmhosts he will have mutas left, which make hellion runbys really a mineral sink, as in they all get intercepted. (At least that happens to mine, maybe doing something wrong).
And my main problem is always that if I go mass vikings he comes with ultras or simply overwelms with mutas, if I go thors he gets broodlords/vipers/more swarmhosts, and with mass tanks he gets also air. Since for zerg tech switching is so fast I am never able to not get hardcountered.
Get more Ravens and some Vikings (I guess you always have a few Thors). PDDs also block Muta shots giving your few Thors and your Vikings free shots on them. If he builds Broodlords and/or Vipers, you can snipe both with the Vikings. If he brings Corruptors to guard the Broodlords, PDD again... it also blocks their shots.
On November 26 2013 05:53 Bagi wrote: Anyone having more success in mech TvP post patch?
I personally have been doing a variation of the 2-2 tank/hellbat push where instead of adding vikings I go pure banshee (assuming no heavy stargate play) and so far it seems quite powerful. I just open typical reaper expand into 1-1-1 into mine/marine/hellion drop depending on what I scout then switch into techlab and never stop building banshees. Use the banshees to deal some damage if the toss neglects his defenses and possibly delay the third, but keep them alive. Cloak is obviously necessary to avoid getting feedbacked.
So when the big push hits once you are nearing maxed you'll probably have 6-7 banshees at least which actually really help dealing with immortals while your hellbat/tank mops up the rest. The only thing they have to kill your banshees is usually archons which can be avoided with some micro and HT/stalker which die very very quickly to tank fire. A few times I've had very even battles where all I'm left with are a few tanks and the banshees, yet the stalkers they warp in can't really scratch them and I end up doing major damage such at sniping the third anyway.
After this push I transition into viking/raven but considering that banshees are only 25 gas more than vikings and supply/build time isn't as big of a limiting factor in these timings, they seem to have great synergy with the push. The only time I really get thrashed is when the toss managed to hide his stargates from me, or when I lose to some random 2-base blink all in.
On November 12 2013 03:17 fried_rice wrote: Time to talk about maps:
I play defensive mech, Master league, got placed into Diamond this season, should be promoted back soon as long as I can figure out the maps.
Last season I thought Yeonsu and Polar Night would be horrible mech maps but they are actually alright (maybe the best mech maps in the current map pool?).
I don't like Derelict Watcher as any non TvZ matchup seems to be quite difficult on it, it's also a dumb map overall. TvP on it is a nightmare as taking a 4th seems impossible without getting some other base sniped.
Frost seems to be absolutely terrible but to be fair I only played a single mech game on it (and I won), it just looks scary with all the bases and attack paths. So I veto'd it right away last season.
Star Station...mehh, I don't like it, expanding on it is kind of weird BUT with the new version it's harder to sneak in ninja bases and it's also easier to deny/kill enemy bases on it. I'm still not sure if I should play it, if i figure out the key points to defend on it, it might not turn out so bad.
Belshir...I never liked it, it's also old and kind of dumb as well.
Alterzim....LOL, played a TvP on it and it's so fucking huge, jesus christ. It was horrible because Terran can't just spawn units anywhere on the map and the fact that mech is actually much slower than bio just makes it all worse. I guess it's not too bad in NON-TvP matchups, where you can actually defend bases without comitting your whole army to that.
So basically I'm kind lost here guys, I must summon the help of Dzerzhinsky, Lyyna, Avilo and other high level defensive mech players, which ones would you veto? So far mine are:
Belshir Derelict Alterzim
I really wanna veto Frost but I'm not sure about Derelict and Belshir though. My problem with these maps overall is playing TvP on them (but I guess that's a problem with mech in general >.<), I don't mind the other two matchups so much. So far my only "sure" veto is Alterzim, I can change the other two if you guys can convince me of it :D
A bit of a delyed response to this, but I wanted to get some games in on the new map before replying.
My three vetos are: Belshir, Yeonsu, and Polar.
For Belshir I've always felt that it was too difficult to hold bases beyond a third, since it opened so many unique attack paths to your different bases.
For Yeonsu, taking the third on the horizontal made it pretty difficult to hold since they could come in from so many angles, and taking it at the triangle madwe the fourth difficult to take. Primarily though I struggled in TvT on this map, since there was so much space to cover to deny drops, and so much room for bio to deny bases while securing 5 or 6 of their own relatively safely.
For Polar, in all match ups found it really difficult to deny drops since you basically need to surround your entire main in turrets to achieve it -- an expensive proposition. In TvZ, I also found that while I would win the game if I could secure a 4th, this was easier said than done.
Of the four remaining.
I've always had troubles in non-TvZ on Derelict, but recently I've really been turning that around with more Banshees in my TvP, and better unit splitting/positioning in TvT. Once you can hold your own bases it isn't so bad, since they can't mass expand themselves, and sniping their bases isn't too difficult most of the time.
Star Station is my worst map this season, due to it being so easy to cheese on in TvP, so easy to drop on in TvT, and it being a bit tricky to hold on once you take a 4th in TvZ. But it's still nearly at 50% winrate, so not too bad.
Frost is fine for me. But I must admit that I frequently take a hidden base in TvT and TvP on it, just because it can be tricky to get a 5th base up and I don't want to be stuck on 4 for too long. Where I really struggle on this map is in vertical spawns. It's so hard to expand horizontally if they want to stop you. All it takes is a few Ultras, or a few Immortals, or a couple Medis of bio, and the base is gone.
The new map, Alterzim, is actually my best map so far this season. The safety of the natural, and to a fair extend the third, has allowed me to expand quickly and get into the late game where i'm comfortable. The size has also made hidden bases very successful, allowing me to have 2 or sometimes 3 up and running before too long. Though on the downside of that, I did lose to a Zerg who took 4 hidden bases on my side of the map and mined them out before I noticed...
I haven't found the openness of the new map to be a major problem so far. I just use well positioned PFs to create chokes of my own.
Figured I may as well lend a voice to the TvP mech discussion, was GM Terran on NA last season.
This season I have started exclusively playing mech all matchups, just because I'm damn sick of bio having played it for 3 years. Mech TvP now i think revolves around the banshee, simply because of the insane DPS and high armor from shared upgrades.
If you can do a lot of damage with drops, runbys, banshee harass and keep powering up additional CC's (orbitals AND planetaries are really important) and eventually get to a fully upgraded mech army, you can be almost unstoppable.
The trickiest things to deal with are warp prism harass and concentrated attacks - if you take damage early the protoss army will simply snowball, so you have to be the aggressor. With mech now, quite simply, the old adage 'the best defense is a good offense' has never been so relevant.
The best end-game army I have found is a mixture of ghosts, hellbats, thors and banshees (with a raven and couple vikings to snipe obs). Tanks are OK sometimes, but highly situational.
Here are 3 replays from my games this morning demonstrating these ideas (2 wins and 1 loss, which was a result of horrible pathing and decision making in one battle, but still good to watch):
The last game is the more refined of the three, and incorporates reaper harass, hellion runbys + mine harass, banshee harass and hellbat drops within the first 10-12 minutes of the game. Let me know what you think!
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote: A bit of a delyed response to this, but I wanted to get some games in on the new map before replying.
My three vetos are: Belshir, Yeonsu, and Polar.
For Belshir I've always felt that it was too difficult to hold bases beyond a third, since it opened so many unique attack paths to your different bases.
Yeah, I think belshir is a no-brainer.
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote:For Yeonsu, taking the third on the horizontal made it pretty difficult to hold since they could come in from so many angles, and taking it at the triangle madwe the fourth difficult to take. Primarily though I struggled in TvT on this map, since there was so much space to cover to deny drops, and so much room for bio to deny bases while securing 5 or 6 of their own relatively safely.
I don't think Yeonsu is too bad, i'm 50/50 on it. Like yourself, I think TvT vs bio is the hardest on this map, I was actually going 8-8-8 every TvT on it, but I get so few Terrans on the ladder that I don't even mind it that much, when I get a TvT on it I just play more agressive than usual.
I like this map because it's pretty small and Z/P can't just get a billion bases late game, so if you manage to get a 4th late-game becomes pretty straightforward.
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote: For Polar, in all match ups found it really difficult to deny drops since you basically need to surround your entire main in turrets to achieve it -- an expensive proposition. In TvZ, I also found that while I would win the game if I could secure a 4th, this was easier said than done.
This is spot on, but for whatever reason I have a a good win-rate on this map which made me not want to veto it, I usually delay my third on this one, I try to get it after my turret-ring is done and once I can shutdown the natural's choke with a wall and forward PF. Like you said, easier said than done, but when I do manage to do that I can get the 3th and 4th for free, 5th base is a nightmare to take though.
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote: I've always had troubles in non-TvZ on Derelict, but recently I've really been turning that around with more Banshees in my TvP, and better unit splitting/positioning in TvT. Once you can hold your own bases it isn't so bad, since they can't mass expand themselves, and sniping their bases isn't too difficult most of the time.
I've always struggled in non-TvZ on it as well, it's my worst winrate out of all HOTS maps, in TvT allocating the correct number of Tanks to defend vulnerable spots is quite hard/impossible, and they can also siege/drop your third without much trouble which was really frustrating for me. For TvP I find that they could always snipe your 4th and run away or in general just keep running around you in circles, in case you park your army at your 4th it seems that they would just hit your main choke poke point or get an easy 5th and transition into air, the fact that you can't actually defend a spot without having YOUR WHOLE ARMY in one place in TvP make this map very frustrating for me. Considering it will most likely be out of the pool on the next season I really don't want to give it another go
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote: Star Station is my worst map this season, due to it being so easy to cheese on in TvP, so easy to drop on in TvT, and it being a bit tricky to hold on once you take a 4th in TvZ. But it's still nearly at 50% winrate, so not too bad.
I'm 10-3 on it (very low sample size, I know). Taking a 4th on it without getting destroyed is pretty hard, I still haven't figured out how to properly defend the choke that connects your natural-third.
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote: Frost is fine for me. But I must admit that I frequently take a hidden base in TvT and TvP on it, just because it can be tricky to get a 5th base up and I don't want to be stuck on 4 for too long. Where I really struggle on this map is in vertical spawns. It's so hard to expand horizontally if they want to stop you. All it takes is a few Ultras, or a few Immortals, or a couple Medis of bio, and the base is gone.
When I first looked at Frost I thought "fuck this" and instantly veto'd it, your stream recently inspired me to play it on it though, I'm 7-4 on it so far and I also try to get hidden a base on it, sometimes two. In TvZ I'll always get an early Viking to clean overlords and a couple of patroling hellions to clear scouting zerglings to deny vision which helps to sucessfully put a hidden CC up, I'll grab the gasses ASAP and mule the shit out of the minerals because against a good player the CCs will get sniped eventually.
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote: The new map, Alterzim, is actually my best map so far this season. The safety of the natural, and to a fair extend the third, has allowed me to expand quickly and get into the late game where i'm comfortable. The size has also made hidden bases very successful, allowing me to have 2 or sometimes 3 up and running before too long. Though on the downside of that, I did lose to a Zerg who took 4 hidden bases on my side of the map and mined them out before I noticed...
I haven't found the openness of the new map to be a major problem so far. I just use well positioned PFs to create chokes of my own.
Wow, really? This maps just looks like winning TvP is impossible on it, I only played 2 games on it so far (2 TvPs) and I just got destroyed which made me not want to play this map very much. One game I got assfucked by warp prism @ my back natural (not enough turret coverage, my mistake), and the in the other one I just got stomped by a huge air-HT deathball which looked invincible considering the guy had a billion bases and could just remax and own me even if I won the fight, considering I could never get enough bank or infrastructure to comfortably play super-late game because of Zealot/DT warpins happening everyfuckingwhere. He also had a lot of cannons which made harassing impossible.
So far my vetos are Belshir and Derelict, I never liked these maps and they will most likely be out of the pool next season, I got one veto left which I'm undecided on.
Thanks a lot for your input, it makes me feel better knowing we have pretty much the same thoughts and struggles regarding the current mappool.
About harasing: I saw Nathanias doing a 4port banshee build , while holding the front with tanks etc. He even did this vs Jaedong and could do some serious damage. He lost it at the end but he held out for a good amount of time. He tried this several times on stream and had some succesful games. If the opponent goes for Mutas he just pumped some vikings which did pretty good with the new upgrades. He then switched into a more factory based comp. He was sure this style/build can become viable. Do you guys feel the same? Im really thinking of doing this too (not with 4ports though just more harass with Hellions and couple of Banshees in general) cause I really need to work on doing damage to the Zerg with guerilla attacks.
He also said some things about mech that opened my eyes. Something like you obviously need to do harass and that mech in general shouldnt be an easy playstyle, cause then you could just build some tanks and would be safe against almost anything. He also said most mech players have mostly low APM like Goody or Strelok and that they need this APM to macro or they are macro oriented in general so theres less room for heavy micro and that this is a problem. This leads to the point where you have to harass to do damage and gain an advantage. I cant get this together exactly now maybe I said some things wrong or misunderstood them. Maybe I search for the VOD/Twitch video so I can post it here. It was really enlightening. EDIT: Hmm strange. Seems like you cant watch past broadcasts if you didnt subscribed to his channel. So I guess its useless to post the link. I hope someone from this thread watched his stream too and can confirm this.
On November 28 2013 10:47 Tresher wrote: He also said most mech players have mostly low APM like Goody or Strelok and that they need this APM to macro or they are macro oriented in general so theres less room for heavy micro and that this is a problem.
The problem is that mech has very little agressive potential when compared to bio, there's no way to snipe tech with drops or threaten the enemy to keep him in his base. All you can try to do is some cute hellion/banshee harass both of which can easily stopped by 1 piece of static D. Past early game all you can do is defend and macro up as being active on the map is very risky, get caught slightly out of position ONCE and you lose the game.
Hey guys got a tvt question. So i played a tvt on frost with the classic bio vs mech matchup . I was lucky enough to secure my third while deflecting all his drops. Right as i was maxing out and pushing he revealed a few BCs and a few more vikes than I had. I killed his ground army but lost all my AA so we both ended up basically loosing our armies. Starting from scratch what would you build to combat a bio + BC army? He was producing mostly marauder MMM with a few BCs every cycle. Since my tank/thor count was basically reset and I didn't feel I had the time to make ravens or tanks, I went hellion hellbat widow mine viking and edged out the victory because i was able to BFH his mineral lines. So I know tanks on the ground and raven viking in the air is always the ideal composition, but if your unit counts get reset, if there an alternative composition you can rush to? for example thor hebllat viking, widowmine tank, or is it better to just start from scratch with tank hellbat viking untill you can stabalize? Thanks in advance for all the advice!
I decided that my 3rd map veto will be Star Station as taking a 4th on is a nightmare regardless.
To the guy above me: if your unit count gets reset you are dead 99% of the time =P an air transition is to be expected from good bio players, you are supposed to have a good raven/viking count by the time he starts transitioning. Spamming turrets everywhere is good as well.
I disagree. Thor Drops / Banshees are great at killing off bases after the 4rth, Thor Drops really slaughter tech structures fast, 8 Hellion drop of which half transforms and half assaults workers is REALLY dangerous because it requires a very careful response.
Just a lot of people don't dare to take the risk. It's not like bio drops in which you can lose stuff, with the exception of hellbat/-ions, you must aim to do damage UNTIL the response arrives, and immidiatly pull back afterwards.
If the opponent has air tech, you now have pretty good vikings and Thor Medivac which deals surprisingly well with air tech.
On November 28 2013 19:47 SC2Toastie wrote: I disagree. Thor Drops / Banshees are great at killing off bases after the 4rth, Thor Drops really slaughter tech structures fast, 8 Hellion drop of which half transforms and half assaults workers is REALLY dangerous because it requires a very careful response.
Just a lot of people don't dare to take the risk. It's not like bio drops in which you can lose stuff, with the exception of hellbat/-ions, you must aim to do damage UNTIL the response arrives, and immidiatly pull back afterwards.
If the opponent has air tech, you now have pretty good vikings and Thor Medivac which deals surprisingly well with air tech.
Like you said, these things cost way too much and besides Thor drops (400/300 resources), all of these get shut down by proper defensive play. I do a lot of hellion->hellbat and banshee harass whenever I have the chance, and I've used a lot of Thor drops in the past but the point still is: these will get shut down easily in which case you're better off having these units at home defending and setting yourself up for a comfortable late game.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should just always turtle but it just happens to be the most reliable way to play mech as it is. I've won games by having multi-pronged banshee squads clean up the mineral lines of 3 different protoss bases while I used hellion as a distraction and to pull him out of position and I'm always looking for opportunities to do that kind of stuff, but these cases are the exception to the rule, in 90% of the games my opponents won't leave me any openings to harass them and I'm forced into massive turtling.
Oh yeah, and I've lost more games because my hellions and banshees were out on the map trying to do cute stuff instead of being at home to defend when the Protoss randomly decided to a-move into my choke than I've won because I was harassing effectively.
How do you deal with mass Ultralisk as a Mech Terran? Air works but it take a very long to kill the Ultras so they can kill your bases in the meantime. Thors and tanks work, but only in a choke point. In the open field Ultras kill everything that can not kite.
The problem is that sooner or later, you can not hide behind your planetarys any more. You need to take a 5 or a 6th base, or kill some of his. And then your Thor/Tanks are suddenly out in the open and get massacred by Ultras. What is the solution to this? Transition into sky only, no ground troops?
Here's one I just played, not pro level obviously but the protoss was a former GM fwiw.
Hey thanks for posting the replay. Great play! Can you tell me in which situations you prefer Thors over Tanks and secondly how many Hellbats do you always try to maintain? I agree with everybody that Banshee's seem important against Immortals but I think it get's very dangerous when you in any situation do not have any Hellbats.
On November 29 2013 03:31 MockHamill wrote: How do you deal with mass Ultralisk as a Mech Terran? Air works but it take a very long to kill the Ultras so they can kill your bases in the meantime. Thors and tanks work, but only in a choke point. In the open field Ultras kill everything that can not kite.
The problem is that sooner or later, you can not hide behind your planetarys any more. You need to take a 5 or a 6th base, or kill some of his. And then your Thor/Tanks are suddenly out in the open and get massacred by Ultras. What is the solution to this? Transition into sky only, no ground troops?
I have some questions about Mechplay in TvT and interested in your opinions.
1) Do i need fast 3 CC's after Gas First Builds to catch up and play a even game? Or is it possible and viable to build my 3 CC after my additional Factories? I think to delay my 3rd CC is fine, because i can not land and defend it anyways against a bio player.
2) With the new patch and combined mech upgrades. Should i play mech in TvT with double upgrades or still just single?
3) My order of factories, starport, armory and cc is until now this one: Fac --> Starport --> 2nd CC --> 2nd+3rd Fac--> Armory+Reactor Starport --> 4th+5th Fac and if i had like 8 gases i add two starports and facs against a bio player otherwise just starports.. I tried to copy terran pro player but it seems they dont follow a logic with this. Maybe you guys can help.
4) What are your compositions against bio and mech players? I normally play against a bio player in the early stage up to 12 Hellions for fast defending and then switch into Tank+Hellbat+MediVac (after reaching like 6 Vikings)+Raven. Against a mech player i normally play Hellbat+Tank+Viking+4-6 MediVac (for dropping tanks)+Raven.
5) When should i roll out with my mech army? After a max out with 2/2 - 2/0 Uprades? Or should i play defensive and just be more cost effective the whole game? Or should i just defend so long until i win a big engagement and then attack?
I often have the problem when i want to roll out to early i get catch off guard because i dont have so many scans/PDD's at this time to make it to key points on the map
On November 29 2013 23:36 Sapphire.lux wrote: Curious vs MVP from IEM Singapore, game 1 and 2 both mech + Show Spoiler +
http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/c/3315851
Happy vs. DongRaeGu from IEM Singapore, game 2 mech starts at 25:22 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/c/3315871
Wow MvP hit the timing perfectly in game 2 against Curious. Maxed at 15 minutes with 2-2 on mech units!
yeah this games were quite impressive but i ask myself what he would do if he faced swarmhosts. It was quite impressive but i think curious didn't play that well. I hope he will face DRG then we can see what he can really do.
For those interested in my TvZ style from the casts Duckville posted a couple of pages ago, this is what it looks like in the first person vs ROOTCatz:
Any basic advice for TvT? There seems to be about 50 things that if I don't do I just autolose to bio, so I'm hoping that after I can hold those that I can start winning.
On December 02 2013 03:25 9-BiT wrote: Any basic advice for TvT? There seems to be about 50 things that if I don't do I just autolose to bio, so I'm hoping that after I can hold those that I can start winning.
These are some things I just thought up :
-Use agressive openings, I play very defensive overall but I favour agressive openings in TvT to pin back the bio player or make him think twice about moving out early on. He can't afford to keep doing random/early marine drops if you are threatening to drop hellions/hellbats or harass with banshees. Find a way to make him uncomfortable with moving his whole bio-ball around the map, always make sure he's left a few units behind to defend your agression.
-Early map control and harass will go a long way into transitioning more easily into a defensive mid-game. Good scouting is also important, don't be afraid to burn scans or sacrifice hellions to figure out what the opponent is up to, since, like you said, theres a random billion things you can die to. Usually I'll get a handful of marines with my openings, which I'll use to grab every watch tower avaliable and set them to patrol important routes for army movement. Widow mines are also awesome for map control and vision although I rarely get more than a couple.
-You've probably been in a situation where a bio player got a drop in your main despite the turrets (damn medivac boost) and you find yourself in a situation where you have to send a few of your slow ass troops to your main to deal with 4 stimmed marines that are killing your depots and armories, something that can be avoided by a single sieged tank in your main, however:
-You have to make sure he's not planning a big frontal assault, that way you can more comfortably siege a few tanks by your CCs, which with the support of turrets will guard you from small drops and buy time for your troops to arrive in case of bigger drops. If they are planning to do a big frontal assault this kind of defense can cost you the game as you might not have enough to defend the front (this is also true for mech vs mech).
-Spam turrets everywhere(past early game ofc), early on fly your barracks to possible drop routes.
What do you guys think about going banshee heavy mech in tvz? Since the patch ive been going hellion banshee 3 cc into 4 fac and 2 starports on 3 base. I go thor hellion banshee with a couple (3-4) of tanks mixed in in case of roaches. It seems really strong in a straight up engagement vs lair tech, and crushes hive (banshees>ultra and it has an easy raven transition). Most of the games i lose are either due to being very far behind in the early game, pushing too early or losing basetrades. However I only ever lose bastrades vs muta players, cause otherwise the banshees are just too effective in that sort of situation. Im only gold so maybe it won't work at higher levels. I was also wondering if a similar composition may work in tvp.
On December 02 2013 04:22 DBS wrote: What do you guys think about going banshee heavy mech in tvz? Since the patch ive been going hellion banshee 3 cc into 4 fac and 2 starports on 3 base. I go thor hellion banshee with a couple (3-4) of tanks mixed in in case of roaches. It seems really strong in a straight up engagement vs lair tech, and crushes hive (banshees>ultra and it has an easy raven transition). Most of the games i lose are either due to being very far behind in the early game, pushing too early or losing basetrades. However I only ever lose bastrades vs muta players, cause otherwise the banshees are just too effective in that sort of situation. Im only gold so maybe it won't work at higher levels. I was also wondering if a similar composition may work in tvp.
Thor/Hellion/Banshee was very strong in WoL, yes, but in HotS you have a very hard time against Swarmhosts with it. You just need the Tanks and Ravens against those. In TvP though I really like the Banshees. It forces P to get some decent anti-air up. Usually they use a lot of Stalkers which are crap against a Tankline. Having Cloakshees early also forces P to get detection out, mainly Observers, which limits the amount of Immortals a bit. Needless to say that Banshees do quite well against Immortals, too.
On December 02 2013 04:22 DBS wrote: What do you guys think about going banshee heavy mech in tvz? Since the patch ive been going hellion banshee 3 cc into 4 fac and 2 starports on 3 base. I go thor hellion banshee with a couple (3-4) of tanks mixed in in case of roaches. It seems really strong in a straight up engagement vs lair tech, and crushes hive (banshees>ultra and it has an easy raven transition). Most of the games i lose are either due to being very far behind in the early game, pushing too early or losing basetrades. However I only ever lose bastrades vs muta players, cause otherwise the banshees are just too effective in that sort of situation. Im only gold so maybe it won't work at higher levels. I was also wondering if a similar composition may work in tvp.
Thor/Hellion/Banshee was very strong in WoL, yes, but in HotS you have a very hard time against Swarmhosts with it. You just need the Tanks and Ravens against those. In TvP though I really like the Banshees. It forces P to get some decent anti-air up. Usually they use a lot of Stalkers which are crap against a Tankline. Having Cloakshees early also forces P to get detection out, mainly Observers, which limits the amount of Immortals a bit. Needless to say that Banshees do quite well against Immortals, too.
I guess i should have mentioned that I increase the number of tanks and go ravens when i face swarmhosts, but that is actually part of what i think the advantage is to this play style, you already have two starports for a faster raven transition
On November 30 2013 05:42 saaaa wrote: I have some questions about Mechplay in TvT and interested in your opinions.
1) Do i need fast 3 CC's after Gas First Builds to catch up and play a even game? Or is it possible and viable to build my 3 CC after my additional Factories? I think to delay my 3rd CC is fine, because i can not land and defend it anyways against a bio player.
2) With the new patch and combined mech upgrades. Should i play mech in TvT with double upgrades or still just single?
3) My order of factories, starport, armory and cc is until now this one: Fac --> Starport --> 2nd CC --> 2nd+3rd Fac--> Armory+Reactor Starport --> 4th+5th Fac and if i had like 8 gases i add two starports and facs against a bio player otherwise just starports.. I tried to copy terran pro player but it seems they dont follow a logic with this. Maybe you guys can help.
4) What are your compositions against bio and mech players? I normally play against a bio player in the early stage up to 12 Hellions for fast defending and then switch into Tank+Hellbat+MediVac (after reaching like 6 Vikings)+Raven. Against a mech player i normally play Hellbat+Tank+Viking+4-6 MediVac (for dropping tanks)+Raven.
5) When should i roll out with my mech army? After a max out with 2/2 - 2/0 Uprades? Or should i play defensive and just be more cost effective the whole game? Or should i just defend so long until i win a big engagement and then attack?
I often have the problem when i want to roll out to early i get catch off guard because i dont have so many scans/PDD's at this time to make it to key points on the map
Bad engagement by him also : basically half of his tanks weren't in range of the protoss army, and most of them were firing on a few zealots coming from the 3rd :/ The main immortal force was basically untouched and destroyed all the hellbats with a perfect concave
But the opening.. waow. TvP mech openings at pro lvl seems super agressive (i guess it was Supernova who did this gas first hellion reactor recently for example?)
On December 03 2013 03:11 Sapphire.lux wrote: Difficult to see how Mech will ever become viable in TvP with Immortals being the super Factory hard counter that they are.
On December 03 2013 01:49 Lyyna wrote: Bad engagement by him also : basically half of his tanks weren't in range of the protoss army, and most of them were firing on a few zealots coming from the 3rd :/ The main immortal force was basically untouched and destroyed all the hellbats with a perfect concave
But the opening.. waow. TvP mech openings at pro lvl seems super agressive (i guess it was Supernova who did this gas first hellion reactor recently for example?)
On December 03 2013 01:49 Lyyna wrote: Bad engagement by him also : basically half of his tanks weren't in range of the protoss army, and most of them were firing on a few zealots coming from the 3rd :/ The main immortal force was basically untouched and destroyed all the hellbats with a perfect concave
But the opening.. waow. TvP mech openings at pro lvl seems super agressive (i guess it was Supernova who did this gas first hellion reactor recently for example?)
True that his engagement wasn't great, but at the same time the protoss also wasn't exactly doing a great engagement. The half flank helped, but letting a mech player siege up right outside your natural so you have to come through the choke also generally isn't a good idea.
Props to MVP for giving it a try. No idea how much mech he has played against toss but he obvioiusly needs a hell of a lot more practice before being able to pull of mech at pro level against toss. His TvZ was really nice to watch though,
On December 03 2013 01:49 Lyyna wrote: Bad engagement by him also : basically half of his tanks weren't in range of the protoss army, and most of them were firing on a few zealots coming from the 3rd :/ The main immortal force was basically untouched and destroyed all the hellbats with a perfect concave
But the opening.. waow. TvP mech openings at pro lvl seems super agressive (i guess it was Supernova who did this gas first hellion reactor recently for example?)
With the new patch I just switched to mech vs protoss and its soo easy! Zealot, immortal archon melts to ghost tank hellbat, Sky toss is the only thing you have to watch out for but with vikes all super upgraded its ezpz. For people who want to switch basically do what mvp did + ghosts, and don't play like avilo (why turtle when tank hellbat is so strong in the mid game). Macro the shit out of hellbat tank on two base with 4 factory(TL+reactor+reactor+TL). Add a sprinkle of ghosts + starport units and go walk all over their third or take your own third and max on ghost(+a few medivac) tank viking. Hellbats OP as shit vs toss: non-armored so immortals don't do shit, hard counter zealots, tanks and thors protect them from ranged units and sky units... I hope they don't nerf terran again, cause this is definitely gonna get big in 2014!
On December 03 2013 16:41 Doc Brawler wrote: With the new patch I just switched to mech vs protoss and its soo easy! Zealot, immortal archon melts to ghost tank hellbat, Sky toss is the only thing you have to watch out for but with vikes all super upgraded its ezpz. For people who want to switch basically do what mvp did + ghosts, and don't play like avilo (why turtle when tank hellbat is so strong in the mid game). Macro the shit out of hellbat tank on two base with 4 factory(TL+reactor+reactor+TL). Add a sprinkle of ghosts + starport units and go walk all over their third or take your own third and max on ghost(+a few medivac) tank viking. Hellbats OP as shit vs toss: non-armored so immortals don't do shit, hard counter zealots, tanks and thors protect them from ranged units and sky units... I hope they don't nerf terran again, cause this is definitely gonna get big in 2014!
I'm glad you believe in this as much as I do . Yeah BF hellbats trade nicely against zealots. I play as agressive as I can with this style. Because I just don't like defensive play. What is your push timing? What worked best for me is to push at 14 minute with around 20 hellbats and 10+ tanks.
Btw I think MVP went for the 2 base all in because his early harass achieved not a lot. And he was already significantly behind. This build however is just really strong if you just go for macro play. I like to get my third at 6:30 and then just push as hard as I can in midgame. Lategame with around 10 cloakshees is fun too .
On December 03 2013 16:41 Doc Brawler wrote: With the new patch I just switched to mech vs protoss and its soo easy! Zealot, immortal archon melts to ghost tank hellbat, Sky toss is the only thing you have to watch out for but with vikes all super upgraded its ezpz. For people who want to switch basically do what mvp did + ghosts, and don't play like avilo (why turtle when tank hellbat is so strong in the mid game). Macro the shit out of hellbat tank on two base with 4 factory(TL+reactor+reactor+TL). Add a sprinkle of ghosts + starport units and go walk all over their third or take your own third and max on ghost(+a few medivac) tank viking. Hellbats OP as shit vs toss: non-armored so immortals don't do shit, hard counter zealots, tanks and thors protect them from ranged units and sky units... I hope they don't nerf terran again, cause this is definitely gonna get big in 2014!
Wait until you get a toss opponent who bothers to flank you.
For most people here mech is definately not impossible vs toss. But really, hellbats op as shit vs toss? Either you are playing way below your skill level, or you are soon back here after a few more games that it isn't that simple.
The main advantage you have when meching vs toss is that toss aren't used to it, and in fact the vast majority of them are just plain horrible against it. And even then they have a good enough chance to win. Wait until you meet a toss who can properly react to mech. Luckily there aren't too many of them. Once in some random pro cast I saw a toss who warped in 10 zealots or so to defend against a 10 BFH runby. That was a GM toss, who was mineral starved. There was no reason whatsoever not to warp in stalkers.
I'd have to check replays for timings, but once I get +2 attack I feel safe to move around. I prefer right now not to take fast third and spend ALL my money on units. Its to the point where I feel confident that if the protoss takes a third before me, I'll have the better army. I'm usually close to maxed out by 14 min and is right about when I take my third (land OC) and push out a min or two later maxed with mostly hellbats, tanks, and very few: ghost vike medivac. I periodically suicide a single hellion to check for toss composition/upgrades. Most games do go long and my idea is to get as many tanks and ghosts as possible on the ground and add focus on starport (vikes banshees) units as the game goes on. I don't like BCs or ravens yet, unless they are able to increment out carrier tempest. At this point I'm not sure what to do super late game cause most games don't last that long. I saw you video with mario btw, very informational!
On December 03 2013 16:41 Doc Brawler wrote: With the new patch I just switched to mech vs protoss and its soo easy! Zealot, immortal archon melts to ghost tank hellbat, Sky toss is the only thing you have to watch out for but with vikes all super upgraded its ezpz. For people who want to switch basically do what mvp did + ghosts, and don't play like avilo (why turtle when tank hellbat is so strong in the mid game). Macro the shit out of hellbat tank on two base with 4 factory(TL+reactor+reactor+TL). Add a sprinkle of ghosts + starport units and go walk all over their third or take your own third and max on ghost(+a few medivac) tank viking. Hellbats OP as shit vs toss: non-armored so immortals don't do shit, hard counter zealots, tanks and thors protect them from ranged units and sky units... I hope they don't nerf terran again, cause this is definitely gonna get big in 2014!
Wait until you get a toss opponent who bothers to flank you.
For most people here mech is definately not impossible vs toss. But really, hellbats op as shit vs toss? Either you are playing way below your skill level, or you are soon back here after a few more games that it isn't that simple.
The main advantage you have when meching vs toss is that toss aren't used to it, and in fact the vast majority of them are just plain horrible against it. And even then they have a good enough chance to win. Wait until you meet a toss who can properly react to mech. Luckily there aren't too many of them. Once in some random pro cast I saw a toss who warped in 10 zealots or so to defend against a 10 BFH runby. That was a GM toss, who was mineral starved. There was no reason whatsoever not to warp in stalkers.
In my first couple games, I actually got flanked alot. It took about 10 games on ladder of getting owned HARD by toss to iron out my build before I went on an undefeated tear. Mostly it came down to scouting with BFH as much as possible. I'm not sure how toss players can react better to mech. Almost everyone gets into mass immortal archon, and either goes stargate, or mass robo once ghosts come out. I was definitely trollin a bit bout the Hellbats, but they are such a good mineral sink vs toss, and they limit the amount of zealots they can make. I wouldn't know what to do with all those extra minerals... unlike mech they cant make macro nexi for the chrono...
I'm sure I'll get messed up by "proper" anti-mech play eventually. I encountered a few players who used two separate army groups of collosi, immortal ect.. really effectively, and kited hellbats and tanks.
I disagree when you say mech's biggest advantage is opponents not being used to it, I think mechs biggest advantages lie in range, vision and imo a more powerful ground army...Range: Ghost > Templar, Vike > all but tempest, tank > all. I don't even consider mech to be immobile relative to a toss, unless we are talking about blink stalkers, but even then BFH are faster and don't trade terribly for 100 minerals. Tanks can generally remained unsieged and siege so late in battles with hellbats buffering and emp clearing shields anyway.
On December 03 2013 17:58 Doc Brawler wrote: I'd have to check replays for timings, but once I get +2 attack I feel safe to move around. I prefer right now not to take fast third and spend ALL my money on units. Its to the point where I feel confident that if the protoss takes a third before me, I'll have the better army. I'm usually close to maxed out by 14 min and is right about when I take my third (land OC) and push out a min or two later maxed with mostly hellbats, tanks, and very few: ghost vike medivac. I periodically suicide a single hellion to check for toss composition/upgrades. Most games do go long and my idea is to get as many tanks and ghosts as possible on the ground and add focus on starport (vikes banshees) units as the game goes on. I don't like BCs or ravens yet, unless they are able to increment out carrier tempest. At this point I'm not sure what to do super late game cause most games don't last that long. I saw you video with mario btw, very informational!
Haha this is hillarious. What you are doing sounds exactly like the SuperNova build I kept telling you about but was never able to show you! He stayed on 2 base until 14 minutes and then pushed out with 2-0 hellbat/tank and took a double expansion.
Yeah the coaching with mario was definetly worth getting up at 4am in the morning^^. Haha this is why I sound so grumpy during the first 20 minutes of the coaching. Add me ingame mate! We should have a chat and watch some replays sometime ..
On November 30 2013 05:42 saaaa wrote: I have some questions about Mechplay in TvT and interested in your opinions.
1) Do i need fast 3 CC's after Gas First Builds to catch up and play a even game? Or is it possible and viable to build my 3 CC after my additional Factories? I think to delay my 3rd CC is fine, because i can not land and defend it anyways against a bio player.
2) With the new patch and combined mech upgrades. Should i play mech in TvT with double upgrades or still just single?
3) My order of factories, starport, armory and cc is until now this one: Fac --> Starport --> 2nd CC --> 2nd+3rd Fac--> Armory+Reactor Starport --> 4th+5th Fac and if i had like 8 gases i add two starports and facs against a bio player otherwise just starports.. I tried to copy terran pro player but it seems they dont follow a logic with this. Maybe you guys can help.
4) What are your compositions against bio and mech players? I normally play against a bio player in the early stage up to 12 Hellions for fast defending and then switch into Tank+Hellbat+MediVac (after reaching like 6 Vikings)+Raven. Against a mech player i normally play Hellbat+Tank+Viking+4-6 MediVac (for dropping tanks)+Raven.
5) When should i roll out with my mech army? After a max out with 2/2 - 2/0 Uprades? Or should i play defensive and just be more cost effective the whole game? Or should i just defend so long until i win a big engagement and then attack?
I often have the problem when i want to roll out to early i get catch off guard because i dont have so many scans/PDD's at this time to make it to key points on the map
thx for your help in advance
What do you think guys?
1) The timing of your 3rd CC is never a set thing, especially with these openings : depends a lot of any damage you did, how safe you feel, what's your follow-up, etc...
2) Both are good, with the obvious difference that the 1 armory style is 'safer' in the midgame due to higher units count, but the double armory means you have a huge lategame superiority : once you have your mech/air 2/2 your army become insanely better than your opponent's.
3) The 111 (with an expand at some point) -> 2 fact -> armory (1 or 2) is standard. Often you'll see a 3rd CC at this point, but see answer 1), it depends a lot of the game and your style
4) In the midgame, i use hellion/bat (with the transf uppgrade) / tank / viking, with 1 raven + 1 banshee from my opening (really good to have). Later, i'll usually add a couple thors and banshees, to keep and/or exploit my air superioriy, with the endgame goal being to add a tons of ravens I don't like medivacs with mech - especially because i don't really like mass hellbats sdrop style
5) Again, matter of style. I personally never attack and was always able to make it work, but at pro lvl you'll often see a combination of timing attacks (with 2 uppgrades for example), or juste waiting for the 1st good opening to grab a strong position : in mech vs mech, they often go for the second, not aiming for a planned timing but instead trying to find a weakness in the opponent position to crush their army and start the push If you want to push 'early' (2/2 for example), aim for a basic army, things like ravens are better if you aim to wait a long time and get a tons in TvT
On December 08 2013 22:25 Porishan wrote: Can someone please sum for me all mech game since buff patch? I will update OP asap
I could't fallow the last few tournaments either,so if there were any TvZ, TvP mech games other then the ones already posted it would be cool if somebody posted them.
I know Maru had a couple of mech games in the latest GLS tournament but since it's behind a pay wall, well, not very accessible.
In which order do you add on production and integrate upgrades in mech TvP?
If we ignore the opening, taking bases, taking gases, turrets in mineral line etc part my basic build order is:
1. 3 Factories 2. Double Armouries 3. Ghost Acedemy and Ghost production from 1 Rax. 4. Increase to 6 Factories. 5. Add 2 more Ghosts Rax for a total of 3 Ghost Raxes. 6. Add 3 Reactor Starports in order to figh air switches.
So in the lategame I end up with 6 Factories (5 techlabs, 1 reactor) 3 Tech Raxes for Ghost production 3 Reactor Starports for Viking production.
Is this a good general sequence and setup for TvP, if not what should be changed?
The lategame compositon that I aim for is 15+ tanks, 10-15 ghost, 15+ vikings and the rest in hellbats. If he goes heavy air I add in a few Ravens.
On December 10 2013 23:54 MockHamill wrote: In which order do you add on production and integrate upgrades in mech TvP?
If we ignore the opening, taking bases, taking gases, turrets in mineral line etc part my basic build order is:
1. 3 Factories 2. Double Armouries 3. Ghost Acedemy and Ghost production from 1 Rax. 4. Increase to 6 Factories. 5. Add 2 more Ghosts Rax for a total of 3 Ghost Raxes. 6. Add 3 Reactor Starports in order to figh air switches.
So in the lategame I end up with 6 Factories (5 techlabs, 1 reactor) 3 Tech Raxes for Ghost production 3 Reactor Starports for Viking production.
Is this a good general sequence and setup for TvP, if not what should be changed?
The lategame compositon that I aim for is 15+ tanks, 10-15 ghost, 15+ vikings and the rest in hellbats. If he goes heavy air I add in a few Ravens.
I would suggest that you add a TLed Starport way earlier (before or after the Ghost Academy?) and later add more Starport with TLs instead of Reactors (1 or 2 with Reactor may be fine). Ravens do really well against Protoss now. Also Protoss doesn't need to go heavy air, just get a few Tempests, for you to need the Ravens. On a sidenote... when playing Mech I think you don't need that many Ghosts. I think 1 or 2 TL Raxes should be enough.
Well, there are many ways you can play mech, with varying compositions so if that's what works for you then you can stick with it I guess, but like the other guy said, Techlab starports are better IMO. Here's how I go:
2 Factories (1reactor/1tlab) 1 Starport (tlab, usually for banshees early on)
2 Factories (1reactor/1tlab or 2tlab, depends on Protoss composition)
3 Starports (2tlab/1reactor)
It usually goes in that order but sometimes I'll change it up a bit depending on what the Protoss is doing, I like to play a very reactive style so sometimes I'll change the order in which I get my buildings.
So I end up with 4 Factories and 4 Staports, later on I add another couple of factories, I don't build any Ghosts in TvP these days, I use all that money to get earlier double armory and Ravens and I also like to get a few Thors regardless in my composition as well, even if the enemy is not going air, Thors have awesome HP for their cost and supply, I usually don't go over 8ish tanks in TvP.
On December 11 2013 00:57 fried_rice wrote: Well, there are many ways you can play mech, with varying compositions so if that's what works for you then you can stick with it I guess, but like the other guy said, Techlab starports are better IMO. Here's how I go:
2 Factories (1reactor/1tlab) 1 Starport (tlab, usually for banshees early on)
2 Factories (1reactor/1tlab or 2tlab, depends on Protoss composition)
3 Starports (2tlab/1reactor)
It usually goes in that order but sometimes I'll change it up a bit depending on what the Protoss is doing, I like to play a very reactive style so sometimes I'll change the order in which I get my buildings.
So I end up with 4 Factories and 4 Staports, later on I add another couple of factories, I don't build any Ghosts in TvP these days, I use all that money to get earlier double armory and Ravens and I also like to get a few Thors regardless in my composition as well, even if the enemy is not going air, Thors have awesome HP for their cost and supply, I usually don't go over 8ish tanks in TvP.
Is that not really weak against mass immortals before you can get your Raven/Banshee count up? In my experience Ghosts are great against everything but Tempest, while seeker missile is really good against opponents that can not micro, but really weak against those who can.
Tanks are much more pop effecient against Protoss ground compared to Thors, provided they have enough ghost and hellbat support. The only problem is getting there + not being out of position even once.
On December 11 2013 00:57 fried_rice wrote: Well, there are many ways you can play mech, with varying compositions so if that's what works for you then you can stick with it I guess, but like the other guy said, Techlab starports are better IMO. Here's how I go:
2 Factories (1reactor/1tlab) 1 Starport (tlab, usually for banshees early on)
2 Factories (1reactor/1tlab or 2tlab, depends on Protoss composition)
3 Starports (2tlab/1reactor)
It usually goes in that order but sometimes I'll change it up a bit depending on what the Protoss is doing, I like to play a very reactive style so sometimes I'll change the order in which I get my buildings.
So I end up with 4 Factories and 4 Staports, later on I add another couple of factories, I don't build any Ghosts in TvP these days, I use all that money to get earlier double armory and Ravens and I also like to get a few Thors regardless in my composition as well, even if the enemy is not going air, Thors have awesome HP for their cost and supply, I usually don't go over 8ish tanks in TvP.
Is that not really weak against mass immortals before you can get your Raven/Banshee count up? In my experience Ghosts are great against everything but Tempest, while seeker missile is really good against opponents that can not micro, but really weak against those who can.
Tanks are much more pop effecient against Protoss ground compared to Thors, provided they have enough ghost and hellbat support. The only problem is getting there + not being out of position even once.
If the opponent is going MASS Immortals(I've actually had people in master league make NOTHING BUT IMMORTALS, so yeah, it can happen) I'll just make a shitload of Banshees and increase my Hellbat to Tank ratio(get 2tlab/2reactors instead of 3tlab/1reactor), in the early/early-mid game you can use your banshees (with proper focus firing and micro) to quickly deplete Immortal shields. Even as few as 3 banshees will quickly eat up an Immortal's shields, and then you can attack the next one and let your other units finish them off.
Later on when you start getting Ravens (I always get Corvid Reactor before producing them), it's not much different from EMP, with the difference that Seeker Missiles can actually kill stuff and it's splash damage overlap (both don't apply to EMP). Also 8 Ghosts won't kill anything, but 4 Ravens with full energy have the potential to completely destroy any protoss ground army and you'll be more than ready for any early air switch (doesn't matter if its Tempest, Carrier or VR).
As for the micro part, if you blanket EMP a Protoss army they can just pullback and regen shields, it's no different from Ravens. With Seekers you have to develop a "sense" of when to use them, if the Protoss engages into you, you fire one of them in the middle of their army, and only start spamming if they actually commit to attacking you and won't pullback.
If they keep pulling back then I don't care, they have to engage you and commist at one point, all you have to do is be mindful of your raven energy, people are just too used with being wasteful with their EMPs
So I figured out the best mid-late game composition vs Protoss is actually
7 or more Thors Exactly 4 Tanks 5 or more banshees Rest hellbats, for supply efficiency trade More Thors or Banshees for hellbats
Some curious discoveries I made via the Thor vs Tank ratio 1. Why 4? 4 shots is needed to 1 shot an immortal with depleted shields 4 shots nicely Insta-gibs a clump of 3-6 HT's 4 Tanks is needed to defend the location between the third and the natural, covering the most ground, yet having tanks spaced closely together that they can still help everyone out. 4 Tanks are a lot easier to control than 12 when you wanna make sure they dont shoot the zealots until eveything else is dead. You can't shift click 12 tanks without some of their smartfire to target zealots when all the shift clicked targets are dead. Also prevents Collosus from taking potshots at your Thors, if you don't have banshees or vikings in position to deal with them yet.
Why the rest Thors? Tank DPS and Range so good!! you say In theory yes it really is, but most of the time it's not that high... against Immortal/Archon/Zealot. All 3 of those units take reduced damge from tanks, and the protoss is only going to have enough stalkers for about 4 tanks to focus down before the immortals get in range. Thors have at least double the DPS of tanks vs Archons and Zealots. Archons don't clump enough for splash to be useful, Zealots get close fast
Thors build 60 seconds Tanks in 45, This means that the Thor is 50% more time efficien. You are getting the most bang for your factory essentially. It takes 1.5 as many techlab factories to max out with tanks. In a 4 base vs 4 base scenario, that's like saving 350 gas and ~5 minutes before you max out.
Tanks don't have DPS when they're dead. Having a lot of Thors means that the high DPS your tanks have will STILL BE THERE when the immortals shields are down, since your 4 tanks (should hopefully be still alive). Thors are really tanky, and it helps tremendously if the archons auto target the thors, while your hellbats that come in from the side get right in front of the immortals to maximize their splash.
Later on in late-late game, THAT's when you add in Ghosts and Ravens. At 3-4 bases, You want to save as much money as you can from having fast production per supply (building Thors over tanks), and not having to invest in more starports and raven upgrades until you are 3/3.
So while you are on 2 base going on 3, and adding your 4 techlab factories, you want to make 4 Tanks first (since they cost less gas/time than thors), and once ur 3rd's gas production kicks in, THEN you want to up your rate of armysize/time as well as getting a solid compositions that gives the most power and requires the least additional upgrades/tech buildings
The one weakness the Thor has is that it doesn't do so hot if the protoss has a critical mass of collosus. However, if he's making collosus, he's not making Immortals, which are by far way stronger vs Mech until Protoss get's like 7 or so collosus, which won't happen when he's on 3 base unless he gets pure zealot collosus (which is a terrible composition). Either adding more banshees or vikings easily solves the collosus problem.
On December 11 2013 06:20 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: So I figured out the best mid-late game composition vs Protoss is actually
7 or more Thors Exactly 4 Tanks 5 or more banshees Rest hellbats, for supply efficiency trade More Thors or Banshees for hellbats
hmm... I am a bit skeptical bc in my experience thor/bat hasn't held its own against zelot archon immortal but maybe I am doing something wrong... I havn't tried incorporating so many banshees so that could be the reason. I will try and report back.
On December 11 2013 06:20 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: So I figured out the best mid-late game composition vs Protoss is actually
7 or more Thors Exactly 4 Tanks 5 or more banshees Rest hellbats, for supply efficiency trade More Thors or Banshees for hellbats
hmm... I am a bit skeptical bc in my experience thor/bat hasn't held its own against zelot archon immortal but maybe I am doing something wrong... I havn't tried incorporating so many banshees so that could be the reason. I will try and report back.
I usually get a fast third vs protoss and do constant hellbat drops. I realized that unless the Protoss has amazing micro (not that often nowadays), he will lose money every time I hellbat drop even if I get just 2 to 3 probe kills, and assuming half the time my medivac can get out alive. This is cause toss has to
Pull all his workers before I land, and most of the time they give up doing that... cause I save my boost for when he tries to run hahaha. And then the probes stuck in the assimilator are usually free kills.
Then he has to put them all back, and probably forgets a warpgate cycle/pylon/forgets about something else screwing up his macro.
So given the expected yield of a hellbat drop is always in your favor, it makes sense to do it all the time! And he needs at least 3 cannons to make it inefficient for me, and in that case I just take another base (3 cannons = 1 CC).
Essentially, this composition is really good if you can maintain the economic advantage. And yeah, Banshees are a reallly big factor. Think about it this way, he goes double robo (or even triple) robo, and you react to get an extra starport for banshees, or getting banshees + drops, whatever.
Banshees can do direct and Indirect damage Direct: Obviously good vs Immortal shields with their double attacks. Money spent in Immortals = Money not spent on Banshee defense. As long as you keep harassing him with 3 to 4 banshees at a time, he is forced to warp in stalkers, which suck against everything, and banshees don't trade too badly vs stalkers in small engagements. Add more banshees, he adds more stalkers, ad continuum
As long as you don't die in your transition to more banshees, him staying on double/triple robo production is a losing strategy. As long as you discovered when he committed to his robo tech path, and adapted accordingly, he is eventually forced to get Anti Banshee units, the only good one being the blink stalker, which are a loooot worse vs Mech in HotS (tank buffs, hellbats, shared upgrades etc..).
HT's dont work because you can constantly decloak to drain your energy, Archons aren't mobile enough.
He can add a Stargate, but guess what, you've forced him to switch tech paths After he committed. And now there's no way to support his X-Warp gates, 2 or 3 Robos AND a Stargate. Especially if he also committed to Templar tech, that means he has to use his Warpgates to get gas heavy units since he's already commited X ammount of gas to Templar Tech. And having a few late game phoenixes aren't gonna do didly squat in big engagements. They'll die from the Thor volley before the battle even starts....
Sorry for the long read, soft counters are sometimes work in weird ways...
Do you need to alter your build significantly if a Toss has a stargate opener? its seems an early pheonix count of 4 or 5 after getting say a proxy oracle or two would do pretty well against HB drops and bnashees
On December 11 2013 06:20 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: So I figured out the best mid-late game composition vs Protoss is actually
7 or more Thors Exactly 4 Tanks 5 or more banshees Rest hellbats, for supply efficiency trade More Thors or Banshees for hellbats
Some curious discoveries I made via the Thor vs Tank ratio 1. Why 4? 4 shots is needed to 1 shot an immortal with depleted shields 4 shots nicely Insta-gibs a clump of 3-6 HT's 4 Tanks is needed to defend the location between the third and the natural, covering the most ground, yet having tanks spaced closely together that they can still help everyone out. 4 Tanks are a lot easier to control than 12 when you wanna make sure they dont shoot the zealots until eveything else is dead. You can't shift click 12 tanks without some of their smartfire to target zealots when all the shift clicked targets are dead. Also prevents Collosus from taking potshots at your Thors, if you don't have banshees or vikings in position to deal with them yet.
Why the rest Thors? Tank DPS and Range so good!! you say In theory yes it really is, but most of the time it's not that high... against Immortal/Archon/Zealot. All 3 of those units take reduced damge from tanks, and the protoss is only going to have enough stalkers for about 4 tanks to focus down before the immortals get in range. Thors have at least double the DPS of tanks vs Archons and Zealots. Archons don't clump enough for splash to be useful, Zealots get close fast
Thors build 60 seconds Tanks in 45, This means that the Thor is 50% more time efficien. You are getting the most bang for your factory essentially. It takes 1.5 as many techlab factories to max out with tanks. In a 4 base vs 4 base scenario, that's like saving 350 gas and ~5 minutes before you max out.
Tanks don't have DPS when they're dead. Having a lot of Thors means that the high DPS your tanks have will STILL BE THERE when the immortals shields are down, since your 4 tanks (should hopefully be still alive). Thors are really tanky, and it helps tremendously if the archons auto target the thors, while your hellbats that come in from the side get right in front of the immortals to maximize their splash.
Later on in late-late game, THAT's when you add in Ghosts and Ravens. At 3-4 bases, You want to save as much money as you can from having fast production per supply (building Thors over tanks), and not having to invest in more starports and raven upgrades until you are 3/3.
So while you are on 2 base going on 3, and adding your 4 techlab factories, you want to make 4 Tanks first (since they cost less gas/time than thors), and once ur 3rd's gas production kicks in, THEN you want to up your rate of armysize/time as well as getting a solid compositions that gives the most power and requires the least additional upgrades/tech buildings
The one weakness the Thor has is that it doesn't do so hot if the protoss has a critical mass of collosus. However, if he's making collosus, he's not making Immortals, which are by far way stronger vs Mech until Protoss get's like 7 or so collosus, which won't happen when he's on 3 base unless he gets pure zealot collosus (which is a terrible composition). Either adding more banshees or vikings easily solves the collosus problem.
Could you post a replay? I find your conclusion very interesting but I don't see it working on even numbers of Immortals vs Thors. If you look in the unit tester how a thor trades against an immortal you will find out that the thor always loses. The thor costs more money and takes more supply (6 instead of 4). The bigger the upgrade difference gets the worse the trade.
For the banshee vs cloak discussion going on. I'm experimenting with both at the moment. I think both are good and both have their andvantages. In mid game you can't afford to go crazy on ghosts and bashees so you have to decide for one of them. I always get a couple of vikings when I go banshees to snipe observers. However lateley more than half of my tvp games start with the protoss oponent all-inning me. If I get all inned that usually means that I have to stay on 2 bases for a long time. On 2 bases I can afford 4 factories and 1 rax ghost production. This has become my standard follow up when I get all inned. I think on a crippled economy hellbat/tank with few ghosts do better than hellbat/tank with a few banshees.
Thanks for the replays Mario! I've been watching your stream when I'm on and saw Day[9]'s coverage of you. The replays are fantastic and I hope to start using mech in ladder soon. Finally don't have to worry about banelings or storm...
Hey everyone I was wondering I am thinking of starting to mech more in my TvT is the ForGGeddon guide still good to follow ? Or is there anywhere else (such as recent replays of pros or a new guide) someone could point me to?
On December 15 2013 11:42 Fhiz wrote: Hey everyone I was wondering I am thinking of starting to mech more in my TvT is the ForGGeddon guide still good to follow ? Or is there anywhere else (such as recent replays of pros or a new guide) someone could point me to?
Thanks
Yeah it is still viable. It's good against a banshee opener. It can be hard to play against a 1/1/1 marine tank viking push of one base but you can even hold against that. Just remember you don't have to open medivac every game. To go for the viking instead of the medivac can make a big diference.
On February 18 2013 10:26 DBS wrote: Has anyone else been having success w/ WM-tank in TvP? I position the widow mines right in front of the tanks. The widow mines stop charglots immortals and archons while the tanks blast whatever tries to shoot the widow mines. I add lots of vikings if they air transition. Is this a gimmick that the protosses just don't know how to deal with or have other players been having the same success?
that shit works really nicely vs a toss going stargate after expand. Otherwise they'll have too many obs/collosus by the time you push with drilling claws. Also, you could also lose to hallucinated phoenixes
On December 15 2013 11:42 Fhiz wrote: Hey everyone I was wondering I am thinking of starting to mech more in my TvT is the ForGGeddon guide still good to follow ? Or is there anywhere else (such as recent replays of pros or a new guide) someone could point me to?
Thanks
Yeah it is still viable. It's good against a banshee opener. It can be hard to play against a 1/1/1 marine tank viking push of one base but you can even hold against that. Just remember you don't have to open medivac every game. To go for the viking instead of the medivac can make a big diference.
It also helps if you have a bunker up to defend the 1/1/1.
Has anyone been having success with HTOMario's mech tvp style? I'm curious why he doesn't make ghosts in the matchup - it seems general consensus is that ghosts are necessary, but Mario forgoes them unless he opens bio into mech. Not that general consensus is that important, mech is far from standard. I just want to know what the mindset is behind not making ghosts.
On December 26 2013 16:52 halpimcat wrote: Has anyone been having success with HTOMario's mech tvp style? I'm curious why he doesn't make ghosts in the matchup - it seems general consensus is that ghosts are necessary, but Mario forgoes them unless he opens bio into mech. Not that general consensus is that important, mech is far from standard. I just want to know what the mindset is behind not making ghosts.
Ghosts aren't standard, in fact I would argue that Banshee's are your goto unit vs Robo based compositions. Because they force out stalkers, which are just terrible against mech. And if they're making stalkers, well thats less supply available for robo.
Hello, I'm having difficulties vs zerg against mass ultras (talking about 12 or so). Thors doesn't seem to be good unless you are maxed having all supply to Thor. Any suggestions?
On December 29 2013 02:03 GuiRao wrote: Hello, I'm having difficulties vs zerg against mass ultras (talking about 12 or so). Thors doesn't seem to be good unless you are maxed having all supply to Thor. Any suggestions?
On December 29 2013 02:03 GuiRao wrote: Hello, I'm having difficulties vs zerg against mass ultras (talking about 12 or so). Thors doesn't seem to be good unless you are maxed having all supply to Thor. Any suggestions?
unsieged tanks with few Banshees
Ah so the key is the tanks have to be not sieged, I'll try it thanks.
On December 29 2013 02:03 GuiRao wrote: Hello, I'm having difficulties vs zerg against mass ultras (talking about 12 or so). Thors doesn't seem to be good unless you are maxed having all supply to Thor. Any suggestions?
Thors are good against ultras. A mix of Thors and unsieged Tanks with whatever you have in front (Hellbats, possibly landed Vikings if you have only that and if there are no Vipers; they will die very fast, but the idea is to protect your Tanks/Thors for as long as possible) should be enough if the numbers are there; avoid to fight in the open if you can of course, in a choke ultras are much weaker since they're a melee large unit. Use shift focus fire if there are many lings along.
I've been meching in tvp for about 2 weeks now, learning a lot. One thing I can't wrap my head around is actually winning engagements. In my head, a correctly positioned with a good composition should stomp most armies, but I almost always come out on the losing side. It's probably has to do with both composition and positioning, but I need a few pointers on how to engage protoss.
This low level replay shows the last game I played in mech tvp. I had two major, max army engagements against protoss and was destroyed both times (the last one was pretty close). What went wrong and what should I do to ensure my armies actually win? I won in the end from simply starving him out. And I know the beginning was atrocious with all the supply blocks, I was trying a new build and just winging it as I went along.
2nd question: What's the idea response to phoenix?
So once toss has a ton of bases and an Immo archon Tempest army and I have a tank hellbat viking army how do I win? Like I get go sky terran but Im already maxed and If I throw away to much on ground he will just over me D: Im getting really sick and tired of immo based armys just a moving over my tank lines as if they were not there How do I win engagments vs Immo based and Tempest base comps?
Hey GumBa, so tank hellbat is a really good composition, but it works a lot better with emps. A single pdd is 20 tempest shots, so you don't need a lot to absolutely shut down tempest. Remember tempest is 4 supply, raven 2 supply. I usually get a ghost academy with my 4th factory, its only 50 gas I think. My two base set up is 4 fac(2 TL 2R), 1 rax(Ghost), 1StarPort(R). Eventually you want to add TL Starports for banshees and a raven or two, but if you catch a wiff of ANY Stargate units add another starport and prioritize vikings over ghosts.
On January 06 2014 10:17 Doc Brawler wrote: Hey GumBa, so tank hellbat is a really good composition, but it works a lot better with emps. A single pdd is 20 tempest shots, so you don't need a lot to absolutely shut down tempest. Remember tempest is 4 supply, raven 2 supply. I usually get a ghost academy with my 4th factory, its only 50 gas I think. My two base set up is 4 fac(2 TL 2R), 1 rax(Ghost), 1StarPort(R). Eventually you want to add TL Starports for banshees and a raven or two, but if you catch a wiff of ANY Stargate units add another starport and prioritize vikings over ghosts.
Ok thx I will try mech again TvP is so frustrating
If you are maxed on tank hellbat Viking and want to slowly transition to sky Terran, instead of banking tons of resources you can invest in buildings, PF, sensor tower, and turrets. They will act as a speed bump to your transition to sky Terran. Cloaked banshees work well against immortals etc when you kill their observers.
You can slowly bleed your mech with hellion runbys and hellbat drops so you can free up resources for your switch to sky Terran.
I usually stop at 3 factories and steadily add star ports as resources allow, even going up to 6 or 7 star ports.if I can secure a 4th.
On January 07 2014 09:37 noSec wrote: Hey guys i never played mech TvT and i'd like to now some basic openers... Is that ForGG build from may 16th still viable? Thanks
We talked abou this on page 28. Yes it is still viable. It's my to-go build for TvT. You will find it hard to defend against 1 base marine tank pushes but with some practice you know how to deal with it.
On January 06 2014 19:41 Telon Petrides wrote: Gumba,
If you are maxed on tank hellbat Viking and want to slowly transition to sky Terran, instead of banking tons of resources you can invest in buildings, PF, sensor tower, and turrets. They will act as a speed bump to your transition to sky Terran. Cloaked banshees work well against immortals etc when you kill their observers.
You can slowly bleed your mech with hellion runbys and hellbat drops so you can free up resources for your switch to sky Terran.
I usually stop at 3 factories and steadily add star ports as resources allow, even going up to 6 or 7 star ports.if I can secure a 4th.
So in TvP i play a mech style with tons and tons of banshees, and the best response is always either archons or storm, I'm winning a good bit despite my inability to micro them. I have very good marine splits, but the method seems totally inneffective. Is there a better way to spread my banshees other than just pre-spreading them into a huge concave?
On January 06 2014 19:41 Telon Petrides wrote: Gumba,
If you are maxed on tank hellbat Viking and want to slowly transition to sky Terran, instead of banking tons of resources you can invest in buildings, PF, sensor tower, and turrets. They will act as a speed bump to your transition to sky Terran. Cloaked banshees work well against immortals etc when you kill their observers.
You can slowly bleed your mech with hellion runbys and hellbat drops so you can free up resources for your switch to sky Terran.
I usually stop at 3 factories and steadily add star ports as resources allow, even going up to 6 or 7 star ports.if I can secure a 4th.
Ok thx
I like to think of the mech progression as getting as much gas in your army as possible. Since your gas income is so limited you need minerals to fill out your army in the early game, hellbats over tanks, and vikings over ravens and banshees.(I mean A LOT of hellbats) As the game goes later your mineral units should die more frequently -- hellbats and vikes lead the charge. Just always build as many gas units and starports as possible FIRST, THEN fill with hellbats with extra minerals. Eventually you can get to 20 tanks(60 supply), 10 ghosts(20 supply), 4 hellbats and about 50-60 supply worth of vikes, ravens or banshees. From here you can transition into anything because your army is so well rounded and looses so little supply durring fights. I personally think 20 tanks and as many raveven as you can get is better than sky terran, unless toss is full blown carrier mode, but even then I like to keep 10-15 tanks, to zone out HT and zelot warp ins.
As far as production goes, I like to go 4 factory 1 rax ghost, and add as many SP as I can, first one reactor then all techlabed. Eventually a few more factories 5-8 can save your ass if a battle goes wrong, which is always possible with mech. GL mechin it happen tvp !!
How do you hold cloak banshee with forgg build? In my experience, the 6 marines die before the first viking comes out and you run out of scans before the raven is out. Is it necessary to make an e-bay and turrets, which would delay air control and ground army. Or to keep reactor on rax and keep making marines? Or make mines? I know there are all these options but not sure which is optimal?
if you know cloakshee is coming a 5:45 ebay shuts it down in time. minerals will be tight, so you might skip 2 marines and don't scan. Or get double gas and a raven, but this is weaker against double banshee followup
On January 10 2014 11:10 DBS wrote: So in TvP i play a mech style with tons and tons of banshees, and the best response is always either archons or storm, I'm winning a good bit despite my inability to micro them. I have very good marine splits, but the method seems totally inneffective. Is there a better way to spread my banshees other than just pre-spreading them into a huge concave?
Presplitting banshees is the only way I know of, and it is critical.
I like to try to lure the Protoss deathball into range of a few spread tanks behind a planetary at a choke; that can help thin out the high templars and by retreating for 2-3 seconds, you avoid his first storms and you can get pdd's. High templars have only so much energy, so by wasting their initial storms by a small retreat into a speed bump, it makes for less storm dodging in the middle part of the engagement.
Maru used cloakshees to good use in proleague this week. It is just so satisfying to kill Protoss when they don't have detection. Pays back for all the Dark Templars!
In mech tvp, I play primarily tank/hellbats with a few ghosts thrown in if I feel the need. I read that tanks shouldn't be focusing on zealots; is there a priority list of units I should be targeting? For example, first archons then immortals then stalkers, etc.?
The second question i have is about hellion drop tactics vs Protoss. In the midgame I go hellbats drops, but I'll usually attempt hellion drops in the early game to start off. If Protoss has a blind spot in his base, I smack my lips in anticipation of the probe roasting to come as I can drop all my hellions without him noticing. But if Protoss isn't horrible and has spotting in his base, where should I be dropping hellions? At the edge where it gives him time to group up and flee his probes? Or close/over the mineral line where the hellions slowly drop one at a time?
Hey guys... When going Mech vs Z how do i scout 2base roach timing? I do the banshee opening with the 5 hellions but after that should i make a third CC or add 2 factories?
On January 15 2014 11:09 halpimcat wrote: In mech tvp, I play primarily tank/hellbats with a few ghosts thrown in if I feel the need. I read that tanks shouldn't be focusing on zealots; is there a priority list of units I should be targeting? For example, first archons then immortals then stalkers, etc.?
The second question i have is about hellion drop tactics vs Protoss. In the midgame I go hellbats drops, but I'll usually attempt hellion drops in the early game to start off. If Protoss has a blind spot in his base, I smack my lips in anticipation of the probe roasting to come as I can drop all my hellions without him noticing. But if Protoss isn't horrible and has spotting in his base, where should I be dropping hellions? At the edge where it gives him time to group up and flee his probes? Or close/over the mineral line where the hellions slowly drop one at a time?
Because hellions are so quick, you always aim for a blind spot, as soon as your drop is scouted move-drop towards the mineral line and if you can, run each hellion as it drops out.
On January 15 2014 11:09 halpimcat wrote: In mech tvp, I play primarily tank/hellbats with a few ghosts thrown in if I feel the need. I read that tanks shouldn't be focusing on zealots; is there a priority list of units I should be targeting? For example, first archons then immortals then stalkers, etc.?
The second question i have is about hellion drop tactics vs Protoss. In the midgame I go hellbats drops, but I'll usually attempt hellion drops in the early game to start off. If Protoss has a blind spot in his base, I smack my lips in anticipation of the probe roasting to come as I can drop all my hellions without him noticing. But if Protoss isn't horrible and has spotting in his base, where should I be dropping hellions? At the edge where it gives him time to group up and flee his probes? Or close/over the mineral line where the hellions slowly drop one at a time?
Because hellions are so quick, you always aim for a blind spot, as soon as your drop is scouted move-drop towards the mineral line and if you can, run each hellion as it drops out.
On January 15 2014 11:09 halpimcat wrote: In mech tvp, I play primarily tank/hellbats with a few ghosts thrown in if I feel the need. I read that tanks shouldn't be focusing on zealots; is there a priority list of units I should be targeting? For example, first archons then immortals then stalkers, etc.?
I'd say the list looks kinda like this (high to low prio): HTs (AoE units that die quickly) Colossi (AoE units that are armored > take bonus damage) EMP'ed! Immortals (anti-Tank units that are armored > take bonus damage, when Shields are down) Archons (because they kill your Hellbats so fast) Stalkers (armored > take bonus damage) everything else that's not close to your own units (to prevent friendly splash)
How do I play mech if my opponent opens air and makes a sizeable chunks of phoenixes? My drop attempts get picked off, but if I don't drop toss army goes out of control. I have no idea what to do tactics and strategy wise, and also compositionaly. I just lost a game where toss opened air, harassed me a bit with Phoenix, kept me in my base, then roll me with immortal archon off what felt like one or two gateways.
On January 17 2014 17:05 halpimcat wrote: How do I play mech if my opponent opens air and makes a sizeable chunks of phoenixes? My drop attempts get picked off, but if I don't drop toss army goes out of control. I have no idea what to do tactics and strategy wise, and also compositionaly. I just lost a game where toss opened air, harassed me a bit with Phoenix, kept me in my base, then roll me with immortal archon off what felt like one or two gateways.
I use missile turrets to guard key points in my defense, both on flanks and in my forward direction of the push. As mech you usually are limited by gas and have plenty of minerals. Missile turrets help against protoss air, observers, DTs and even colossus for forward turrets. Then with whatever anti-air you go for, be that vikings, widow mines, ravens or thors, if you fight close to your turret it can tip the engagement in your favor.
If the Protoss goes heavy air, the turret upgrade Hi-Sec Auto Tracking is useful.
For harass you can still do hellion runbys since medivacs are countered, or just get each expansion safely and push after you win an engagement.
Check out the Youtube Flash Mech vs Sniper and DRG TvZ from ProLeague last night. Besides his amazing macro, his moveouts to deny expansions (tank runbys etc) before maxing is really amazing and something I haven't really seen at the Pro Level.
Hey guys whats up? I have another question regarding TvZ. I'm new to mech in TvZ and i feel kinda lost in time in the match. It feels like i never have the proper army to deal with the enemy and then i suddenly realize that i'm 18 mins into the game... Well... Should i MASS turrets to defend against Mutas? Cause most of the time i'm cought out of position with thors or moving out to attack the Z...
The other question may sound retarded but i have my reasons to ask... When should i stop making hellions and begin making Hellbats? (In TvZ and TvT)
Watch flash. He makes 6 hellions and then Hellbats. Strelok makes them all game and harrases with them. Just know that throwing away 6 hellions is 12 supply and 600 minerals, so if you don't trade well with them over and over you will fall behind
On January 22 2014 13:29 noSec wrote: Hey guys whats up? I have another question regarding TvZ. I'm new to mech in TvZ and i feel kinda lost in time in the match. It feels like i never have the proper army to deal with the enemy and then i suddenly realize that i'm 18 mins into the game... Well... Should i MASS turrets to defend against Mutas? Cause most of the time i'm cought out of position with thors or moving out to attack the Z...
The other question may sound retarded but i have my reasons to ask... When should i stop making hellions and begin making Hellbats? (In TvZ and TvT)
Thank you guys...
Make 4 - 6 Thors after Helions, add few turrets around mineral lines and widow mine
High master, in TvT I do forgg build 15 gas into hellions, how to I defend the marine tank push that comes after cloak banshee or later even the marine marodeur stim tank viking push? do I NEED to get marine tank at start? should I add facotry number 2 and 3 before third cc? thanks.
Sup guys... Well i'm having TERRIBLE problems with TvZ right now and the core of the problems are the mutas. In theory i know what i must do but it just doesn't work by any means... Even when i'm ahead in the game, when i'm in three bases the game turns to a nightmare. I usually have a lot of Turrets in my bases and 1 to 2 thors and even with that, i can't leave my base at all... The Mutas just find a way to snipe turrets and do the magic box on thors.
Shoul i be making Vikings? I see some terrans adding vikings to their composition, but the meaning of them is to scare mutas away from their base?
Aquila, I find its insanely hard but I've been working on specifically that lately. Playing against cheater AI while setting them to "marine seige" tactic is a good practice...
step 1: Being super efficient with your build: no extra depots and if you want to squeeze in turrets for gas first banshee defense you have to choose something to skip (2 marines) Step 2: is scouting it: one mine, scv, marine, or hellion needs to be waiting for the marine tank move out. Step 3: the engage: if its early with only rines and tanks, just pull a few scvs, even 3-4 will be the difference between barely not holding it and totally crushing it. If its later on in the game i like to either have a hellion runby ready to pull them back or swarm them hellions and huge scv pull if needed.
The build: forgg 1-1-1... ebay at or before 5:45 -> one turret. build hellions constantly fit as many vikes as you can, second factory won't finish before ealry pushes so just make hellions and if they take a late expo and rush you pull the boys. 3rd CC -> 2nd gas, 2nd factory (on TL that rax builds) -> Blue flame immediatly and one tank when gas allows. take gas 3 and 4 and add 3rd fac. For me the key is really fast 2 fac with blue flame, one tank and about 4 vikings. I get a raven after that then go into reactor vikes...
On January 25 2014 15:17 noSec wrote: Sup guys... Well i'm having TERRIBLE problems with TvZ right now and the core of the problems are the mutas. In theory i know what i must do but it just doesn't work by any means... Even when i'm ahead in the game, when i'm in three bases the game turns to a nightmare. I usually have a lot of Turrets in my bases and 1 to 2 thors and even with that, i can't leave my base at all... The Mutas just find a way to snipe turrets and do the magic box on thors.
Shoul i be making Vikings? I see some terrans adding vikings to their composition, but the meaning of them is to scare mutas away from their base?
I highly suggest watching both Maru's and Flashes mech tvz in proleague.
3 base into muta: Basically get 6 hellions, 3 banshees, an optional raven, 2 tanks, 2 hellbats before any AA to hold ground based aggression. Then get 1-2 thors, reactor vikings and 2 missle turrets per base. This is really cheap way to hold off mutas while getting your own 3 base up and 3 fac one starport. Do not stop making vikings because the only things that should scare your tank hellbat army is (mutas, vipers, broods). after 5 fac is set up add starports with tech labs. raven viking beats zerg air basically while tank hellbat.
2 base muta: Maru has to deal with 2 base mutas and you basically do the exact same thing but move up your AA production one cycle earlier. 6 hellions 2 banshee, option raven. Then before tanks, 2 thors, 2 vikings (not from reactor) and only 1 missle turret per base. 2 base muta is faster but weaker... secure your third with only these units and begin tanks!
Another really good example of mass mutas is leenok vs bravo on yeonsu. Basically keep your vikings with your thors and don't skip on ravens.. thors build time actually lets you afford ravens and vikings... also a SHIT TON of turrets will help you as you move out... like 20 turrets in one base... major vs scarlet on star station is a good example for that.
On January 25 2014 15:59 Doc Brawler wrote: Aquila, I find its insanely hard but I've been working on specifically that lately. Playing against cheater AI while setting them to "marine seige" tactic is a good practice...
step 1: Being super efficient with your build: no extra depots and if you want to squeeze in turrets for gas first banshee defense you have to choose something to skip (2 marines) Step 2: is scouting it: one mine, scv, marine, or hellion needs to be waiting for the marine tank move out. Step 3: the engage: if its early with only rines and tanks, just pull a few scvs, even 3-4 will be the difference between barely not holding it and totally crushing it. If its later on in the game i like to either have a hellion runby ready to pull them back or swarm them hellions and huge scv pull if needed.
The build: forgg 1-1-1... ebay at or before 5:45 -> one turret. build hellions constantly fit as many vikes as you can, second factory won't finish before ealry pushes so just make hellions and if they take a late expo and rush you pull the boys. 3rd CC -> 2nd gas, 2nd factory (on TL that rax builds) -> Blue flame immediatly and one tank when gas allows. take gas 3 and 4 and add 3rd fac. For me the key is really fast 2 fac with blue flame, one tank and about 4 vikings. I get a raven after that then go into reactor vikes...
Thanks, so you think just make mass Hellion? Dont you think it is better to make reactored Marines and maybe even a tank?
I think the best counter build is one rax expo, but right before you throw down your expo you get double gas then the CC then 1-1-1 with marine tank viking... It feels like a weird build but it works out so you can get out a tank and viking and still have a faster CC... If you want to do the forgg build I feel it transitions into mech better than into bio so yea i would make hellions. If you want to go bio-tank then 1-1-1 is probably best build, reactoring rines...
On January 26 2014 11:00 halpimcat wrote: in tvp, How do you beat carriers? If the protoss sniffs mech from me, if they go straight to carriers, I have absolutely no response back.
I use focus fired vikings fighting by missile turrets and widow mines coming out of my reactored factories. Carriers are tough. Supernova also got creamed by them twice in GSL 2 days ago by Stats.
I never have enough Ravens/Thors in my build at the time the carriers get to you. I've heard Yamato is good against them but I never get BCs in time. They build too slow.
You have to focus fire the vikings or they attack interceptors. By fighting by several turrets, the turrets shoot down the interceptors. The widow mines give you splash, can do pretty well against all protoss units if the sentries are gone (due to turrets or scan+vikings).
I think we are going to see alot of carriers vs Mech after Stats/SuNo GSL games.
On January 25 2014 15:17 noSec wrote: Sup guys... Well i'm having TERRIBLE problems with TvZ right now and the core of the problems are the mutas. In theory i know what i must do but it just doesn't work by any means... Even when i'm ahead in the game, when i'm in three bases the game turns to a nightmare. I usually have a lot of Turrets in my bases and 1 to 2 thors and even with that, i can't leave my base at all... The Mutas just find a way to snipe turrets and do the magic box on thors.
Shoul i be making Vikings? I see some terrans adding vikings to their composition, but the meaning of them is to scare mutas away from their base?
You can also mix in a few widow mines to back up your turrets - pros/Mario like to hide them by the reactors so they are really hard to see. Hi Sec Autotracking helps alot too. I make some vikings to kill vipers and overlords, and they do help vs mutas in a pinch.
On January 26 2014 11:00 halpimcat wrote: in tvp, How do you beat carriers? If the protoss sniffs mech from me, if they go straight to carriers, I have absolutely no response back.
I use focus fired vikings fighting by missile turrets and widow mines coming out of my reactored factories. Carriers are tough. Supernova also got creamed by them twice in GSL 2 days ago by Stats.
I never have enough Ravens/Thors in my build at the time the carriers get to you. I've heard Yamato is good against them but I never get BCs in time. They build too slow.
You have to focus fire the vikings or they attack interceptors. By fighting by several turrets, the turrets shoot down the interceptors. The widow mines give you splash, can do pretty well against all protoss units if the sentries are gone (due to turrets or scan+vikings).
I think we are going to see alot of carriers vs Mech after Stats/SuNo GSL games.
That's the thing: unless I'm already ahead, I can't for the life of me deal with carriers without missile turrets. Which means I can't move out and be aggressive without being demolished. By the time I feel safe enough to try, Protoss has taken half the map and can afford to trade somewhat inefficiently and just bleed me to death.
On a similar note, are there good options to be aggressive vs a Protoss who failed the all-in? Double expanding after a failed blink or dt all-in is nice and all. But I find that if Protoss just withdraws from trying to outright kill me, delays my expansions with harass, and double expand on his own, the game turns more or less even, which doesn't feel right at all.
On January 26 2014 11:00 halpimcat wrote: in tvp, How do you beat carriers? If the protoss sniffs mech from me, if they go straight to carriers, I have absolutely no response back.
I use focus fired vikings fighting by missile turrets and widow mines coming out of my reactored factories. Carriers are tough. Supernova also got creamed by them twice in GSL 2 days ago by Stats.
I never have enough Ravens/Thors in my build at the time the carriers get to you. I've heard Yamato is good against them but I never get BCs in time. They build too slow.
You have to focus fire the vikings or they attack interceptors. By fighting by several turrets, the turrets shoot down the interceptors. The widow mines give you splash, can do pretty well against all protoss units if the sentries are gone (due to turrets or scan+vikings).
I think we are going to see alot of carriers vs Mech after Stats/SuNo GSL games.
That's the thing: unless I'm already ahead, I can't for the life of me deal with carriers without missile turrets. Which means I can't move out and be aggressive without being demolished. By the time I feel safe enough to try, Protoss has taken half the map and can afford to trade somewhat inefficiently and just bleed me to death.
On a similar note, are there good options to be aggressive vs a Protoss who failed the all-in? Double expanding after a failed blink or dt all-in is nice and all. But I find that if Protoss just withdraws from trying to outright kill me, delays my expansions with harass, and double expand on his own, the game turns more or less even, which doesn't feel right at all.
I like to go double reactor starport with 2 tech lab 1 reactor factory. Mass drop style and get a 4th factory with a 2nd reactor near my third timing. Allows me to make 4 vikings at a time if needed and mineral dump into hellbats countering any air tech. It's also hard to deal with drops without air tech so i can do 3 or so medivacs flying around sniping workers.
On January 26 2014 11:00 halpimcat wrote: in tvp, How do you beat carriers? If the protoss sniffs mech from me, if they go straight to carriers, I have absolutely no response back.
I use focus fired vikings fighting by missile turrets and widow mines coming out of my reactored factories. Carriers are tough. Supernova also got creamed by them twice in GSL 2 days ago by Stats.
I never have enough Ravens/Thors in my build at the time the carriers get to you. I've heard Yamato is good against them but I never get BCs in time. They build too slow.
You have to focus fire the vikings or they attack interceptors. By fighting by several turrets, the turrets shoot down the interceptors. The widow mines give you splash, can do pretty well against all protoss units if the sentries are gone (due to turrets or scan+vikings).
I think we are going to see alot of carriers vs Mech after Stats/SuNo GSL games.
That's the thing: unless I'm already ahead, I can't for the life of me deal with carriers without missile turrets. Which means I can't move out and be aggressive without being demolished. By the time I feel safe enough to try, Protoss has taken half the map and can afford to trade somewhat inefficiently and just bleed me to death.
On a similar note, are there good options to be aggressive vs a Protoss who failed the all-in? Double expanding after a failed blink or dt all-in is nice and all. But I find that if Protoss just withdraws from trying to outright kill me, delays my expansions with harass, and double expand on his own, the game turns more or less even, which doesn't feel right at all.
I like to go double reactor starport with 2 tech lab 1 reactor factory. Mass drop style and get a 4th factory with a 2nd reactor near my third timing. Allows me to make 4 vikings at a time if needed and mineral dump into hellbats countering any air tech. It's also hard to deal with drops without air tech so i can do 3 or so medivacs flying around sniping workers.
Thanks! Always good to hear from the guy that inspired me to go tvp mech in the first place.
I have another question (they never end...): I've been reading a lot about the strength of tank/hellbat, and how often times you don't even need to siege to beat a toss army that doesn't have colossi. Just a move and win. I'm a bit too skeptical to try it out myself in game though; is this really good? Is it actually better than sieging the tanks? About the same in terms of strength? Who's well does it work in different scale sizes (ie medium sized armies vs large size armies)?
On January 26 2014 11:00 halpimcat wrote: in tvp, How do you beat carriers? If the protoss sniffs mech from me, if they go straight to carriers, I have absolutely no response back.
I use focus fired vikings fighting by missile turrets and widow mines coming out of my reactored factories. Carriers are tough. Supernova also got creamed by them twice in GSL 2 days ago by Stats.
I never have enough Ravens/Thors in my build at the time the carriers get to you. I've heard Yamato is good against them but I never get BCs in time. They build too slow.
You have to focus fire the vikings or they attack interceptors. By fighting by several turrets, the turrets shoot down the interceptors. The widow mines give you splash, can do pretty well against all protoss units if the sentries are gone (due to turrets or scan+vikings).
I think we are going to see alot of carriers vs Mech after Stats/SuNo GSL games.
That's the thing: unless I'm already ahead, I can't for the life of me deal with carriers without missile turrets. Which means I can't move out and be aggressive without being demolished. By the time I feel safe enough to try, Protoss has taken half the map and can afford to trade somewhat inefficiently and just bleed me to death.
On a similar note, are there good options to be aggressive vs a Protoss who failed the all-in? Double expanding after a failed blink or dt all-in is nice and all. But I find that if Protoss just withdraws from trying to outright kill me, delays my expansions with harass, and double expand on his own, the game turns more or less even, which doesn't feel right at all.
I like to go double reactor starport with 2 tech lab 1 reactor factory. Mass drop style and get a 4th factory with a 2nd reactor near my third timing. Allows me to make 4 vikings at a time if needed and mineral dump into hellbats countering any air tech. It's also hard to deal with drops without air tech so i can do 3 or so medivacs flying around sniping workers.
Thanks! Always good to hear from the guy that inspired me to go tvp mech in the first place.
I have another question (they never end...): I've been reading a lot about the strength of tank/hellbat, and how often times you don't even need to siege to beat a toss army that doesn't have colossi. Just a move and win. I'm a bit too skeptical to try it out myself in game though; is this really good? Is it actually better than sieging the tanks? About the same in terms of strength? Who's well does it work in different scale sizes (ie medium sized armies vs large size armies)?
If your army is much bigger you can do it but i'd still siege a few. It's not something you want if his army is close to power in yours.
On January 25 2014 05:37 Aquila- wrote: High master, in TvT I do forgg build 15 gas into hellions, how to I defend the marine tank push that comes after cloak banshee or later even the marine marodeur stim tank viking push? do I NEED to get marine tank at start? should I add facotry number 2 and 3 before third cc? thanks.
If you are doing the forgg build, make sure you are making a total of 8 marines from the barracks. If it is a gas first barracks cloak banshee, cut marines at 6, save scans, and make a viking as your first starport unit.
To d efend a m arine tank push, ID it is coming and then make a cloak banshee out of your starport to shut it down.
Vs marine maurader tank pushes, you n eed siege tanks, vikings, and hellbats. Hellions dont do great against mauraders. And you will only win with your tanks sieged as well so dont fight when they are unseieged
How the hell do I defend 2 base blink on a map like Yeonsu? I've been trying to sit back and just focus on pure marine/tank but it just feels hopeless if the protoss actually knows what theyre doing. Tanks get sniped instantly, bunkers die almost instantly and even if I miraculously survive he is free to take a third base and get templar tech while pressuring me with leftover stalkers.
This build is the bane of my existence, I wouldn't mind playing longer games against protoss but most of them end before to 10 minute mark. High masters terran fwiw.
Hey guys I'm a 16 year old NA Grandmaster currently ranked 28th that Mech's in each MU! I'm trying to get my name out so it would be greatly appreciated if you come joined my stream at http://www.twitch.tv/elitelegend. I will try to read my chat as often as possible and answer any questions you guys might have ENJOY THE MECH!!!!!!
Guys where are the mechers, this thread is pretty inactive. Time for more mech discussions. Do you guys go 1 or 2 armory TvZ? How do you open TvT vs bio and tank pushes?
On April 15 2014 10:42 Aquila- wrote: Guys where are the mechers, this thread is pretty inactive. Time for more mech discussions. Do you guys go 1 or 2 armory TvZ? How do you open TvT vs bio and tank pushes?
I always 2 armories in TvZ if i am playing macro. 1 armory is more used for 2/3 base timings and getting them upgrades fast is really good for mech, Mech being a style focused around cost effectiveness really pays of i nthe long run with fast upgrades, Same philosophy as protoss and their upgrades.
On April 15 2014 10:42 Aquila- wrote: Guys where are the mechers, this thread is pretty inactive. Time for more mech discussions. Do you guys go 1 or 2 armory TvZ? How do you open TvT vs bio and tank pushes?
I go double armory every game vs Zerg. You can do it with basically zero worries. TvT I typically open up with a raven almost every game. Air control is very important in TvT and will allow to push back enemy tanks with your own tanks and PDD also allows you stop marauder fire against bio players.
I've been having a lot of fun exploring mech in hots; specifically tvp I've been inspired by htomario. Hellbat/tank timing pushes can be strong but are really only good for the same reason roach/hydra pushes are good in zvp... the units themselves might not be that cost effective... but you can get a lot of them quickly... the downside to this is the meching player has to be a base ahead. I've opted to rely on widow mines (as opposed to ghosts) as a soft counter to immortal heavy compositions. This gives a much more broodwar feel to the matchup and allows the slower mech army to expand after the toss.
At time 17:07 that Terran(Bbyong) unit composition was beautiful. That's what TvP mech should all be about. Tons of tanks, some viking, some hell, tons of ghosts. There's no way for Protoss(Classic) to confront that head on and Classic knows that. Bbyong had left some very well placed tanks and ghosts fully expecting that counterattack and was able to respond with the mobility of Viking and kill crazy amounts of immortals. He could have further improved his play here with more control on the vikings, taking out the warp prism and landing them in a better position, and also responding a little bit more to the counterattack with the speed of Hellion, but even without doing it he was the clear winner.
What do you guys do when you max out? I'm not very comfortable banking resources when I only have factories and at most 1 starport. At the same time, I feel like if I push out I need to win with one push.
ps: Isn't Out Boxer basically Akilon Waste without the ramp leading to the nat and the rocks between nat and 3rd?
On July 21 2014 13:55 KingofGods wrote: What do you guys do when you max out? I'm not very comfortable banking resources when I only have factories and at most 1 starport. At the same time, I feel like if I push out I need to win with one push.
Make more starports in case your opponents decides to switch to air (or you want to switch yourself). Make more factories as well so you can reinforce faster. Make extra orbital commands so you can afford more scans and mules. Build more turrets around your bases and put up sensor turrets. Basically give yourself more chances to push towards the endgame and hold an advantage if you can't win in the immediate future. Get more ahead.
Also you don't have to win in one push; if you did as I said, unless your army was completely decimated without doing any damage, the preparations you made for the endgame means your strategy is no essentially an all-in.
On July 21 2014 13:55 KingofGods wrote: What do you guys do when you max out? I'm not very comfortable banking resources when I only have factories and at most 1 starport. At the same time, I feel like if I push out I need to win with one push.
ps: Isn't Out Boxer basically Akilon Waste without the ramp leading to the nat and the rocks between nat and 3rd?
Note how Bbyong transitioned to Ghosts and Nukes and Cloak late game. He was also aggressive with expansions, planetaries, building armor, orbitals, and hellion runby/hell at drops. He was always spending. Did you see how early he got hi sec auto tracking?
Of course in this game, mech is so unexpected, he caught Classic off guard and Classic could not transition to an anti mech build of Skytoss/Immortal/Archon/Chargelots. Bbyong kept up constant pressure so Classic would have difficulty transitioning. Defenses and expansions and tech is also pressure. An island base on that map helps.
My point is you can't sit back and turtle. Do what Bbyong does. I like how he stayed ahead all game, left enough at his third to make it cost inefficient for Classic to Base Trade, and went for the kill. The only think I would not have done that Bbyong did was go Battlecruiser. I prefer Cloaked Banshees and a couple ravens for Pdd and seeker. battlecruisers take too long and can be feedbacked. It is easier to get the cloaked banshees out and use them. ghost mech sky for the win!
If you let Toss go anti mech sky you can still lose easily. Mass Carriers are really tough. Chargelots wreck tanks. Storms can kill your air. Immortals are really tough.
I used to go mech tvz until I lost too often to mutas. Bio doesn't deal with mass mutas very well either but at least you have a chance to stream across the map and do damage.
On July 22 2014 03:00 codonbyte wrote: I think Avilo's Rules of Mech should be added to the OP.
The op hasn't been updated in a while, it seems. And his "rules of mech" are far from being any kind of definitive thing on the subject. Just his own, and there is no real point in any every single mech player own sets of rules into something,unless it is a thread named "set of rules of every mech player in the world"
On July 22 2014 03:43 KingofGods wrote: I used to go mech tvz until I lost too often to mutas. Bio doesn't deal with mass mutas very well either but at least you have a chance to stream across the map and do damage.
Sadly yeha, they're a big problem with mech - the "best" thing to do finally is to mass turrets are sensitive locations (like 10+ turrets) with mines and a thor. . . and then abuse sensor tower to reposition the air fleet.
On July 22 2014 03:00 codonbyte wrote: I think Avilo's Rules of Mech should be added to the OP.
The op hasn't been updated in a while, it seems. And his "rules of mech" are far from being any kind of definitive thing on the subject. Just his own, and there is no real point in any every single mech player own sets of rules into something,unless it is a thread named "set of rules of every mech player in the world"
His "rules of mech" includes some useful information about various things that new players might struggle with, and some basic tips to making mech work. For example, he explains why you shouldn't trade armies with mech. That is something that is a core principle to using mech that many newer players might not understand. He also gives a good timing to build static defense; another worthwhile thing that many newer players struggle with. So yes, Avilo's "rules of mech" are, imo, a helpful resource for any player who wants to go mech, and therefore deserves to be in this OP.
On July 21 2014 13:55 KingofGods wrote: What do you guys do when you max out? I'm not very comfortable banking resources when I only have factories and at most 1 starport. At the same time, I feel like if I push out I need to win with one push.
ps: Isn't Out Boxer basically Akilon Waste without the ramp leading to the nat and the rocks between nat and 3rd?
Note how Bbyong transitioned to Ghosts and Nukes and Cloak late game. He was also aggressive with expansions, planetaries, building armor, orbitals, and hellion runby/hell at drops. He was always spending. Did you see how early he got hi sec auto tracking?
Of course in this game, mech is so unexpected, he caught Classic off guard and Classic could not transition to an anti mech build of Skytoss/Immortal/Archon/Chargelots. Bbyong kept up constant pressure so Classic would have difficulty transitioning. Defenses and expansions and tech is also pressure. An island base on that map helps.
My point is you can't sit back and turtle. Do what Bbyong does. I like how he stayed ahead all game, left enough at his third to make it cost inefficient for Classic to Base Trade, and went for the kill. The only think I would not have done that Bbyong did was go Battlecruiser. I prefer Cloaked Banshees and a couple ravens for Pdd and seeker. battlecruisers take too long and can be feedbacked. It is easier to get the cloaked banshees out and use them. ghost mech sky for the win!
If you let Toss go anti mech sky you can still lose easily. Mass Carriers are really tough. Chargelots wreck tanks. Storms can kill your air. Immortals are really tough.
I've done the ghosts + nukes with mech since forever ago. It's good but it should be noted it is only good to do this if the Protoss is playing full ground style with no stargates. If they go mass tempest/carrier and you have 10+ ghosts, you are in a lot of trouble because all of that gas you spent in ghosts/nukes is pretty much useless, and you need to already have about 6-8 ravens with PDD available vs the tempests or you just die.
I used to go traditional mech with Tanks/Hellbats/Vikings/Ghost/Ravens but that was extremely hard to use, very hard to get the composition right, vulnerable to timing attack, vulnerable to switches between air and ground. Often a sieged up army was just overun by mass Immortals or mass Archons or died to mass air.
Since the improved window mines and watching HTOMario playing Mine/Tanks in TvP I have started to go Mine/Tank/Viking and that seem to work against any composition Protoss can use. It comes down to micro and positioning skills, but it is much easier to use than bio and more forgiving than traditional mech. Plus you can play it really aggressively since mines are cost efficient, but not supply efficient so you need to trade with the Protoss army, not letting him get to 200 supply of high gas units. Plus you can do widow mine drop all game long or until he has 3+ cannons at every mineral line.
It is easier to execute than bio and much more fun and aggressive compared to traditional mech. Mass Mines makes you immune to being a-moved by mass Immortals, Tank/Viking take care of Colossus, Mines take care of Zealots and Mine/Viking take care of air. If you get excess gas in the late game just add a few Ravens for pdd. So far I have not have has a single loss in TvP where I played better than my opponent but still lost, something that can happen quite easily if you go for standard mech. I really think that any Terran struggling with TvP should try this playstyle. It may or may not work at GSL level, but below that it seems fine.
Do you have any links to those HTOMario games? Would be cool to watch.
Also, does anyone remember JJakji's ooooooold 2 base thor/banshee/hellion allin TvP? It feels like it should be so much better in HotS with hellbats, and Thors now auto-targetting air, and widow mines making templar openers semi-extinct.
On August 11 2014 02:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Do you have any links to those HTOMario games? Would be cool to watch.
Also, does anyone remember JJakji's ooooooold 2 base thor/banshee/hellion allin TvP? It feels like it should be so much better in HotS with hellbats, and Thors now auto-targetting air, and widow mines making templar openers semi-extinct.
On August 11 2014 02:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Do you have any links to those HTOMario games? Would be cool to watch.
Also, does anyone remember JJakji's ooooooold 2 base thor/banshee/hellion allin TvP? It feels like it should be so much better in HotS with hellbats, and Thors now auto-targetting air, and widow mines making templar openers semi-extinct.
I think the biggest problem atm with the Jjackji allin is that it was relying a LOT on the cloakshee opening (slowing down protoss + smooth transition into thor due to double gas early, and able to defend most protoss stuff in the early game), which is now basically extinct. It is extremely hard to have something equivalent with the ability to slow the protoss, to defend possible attacks early, AND to smoothly transition into a second base + your force for the attack.
The composition is extremely strong, because of the things you talked about, but mainly in defense : between what i said, and also protoss way greedier builds (and, so, the lack of ability to slow them down), and photon overcharge being a non negligible help, it is hard to have an offensive timing as strong as before versus a protoss who's going to be free to do almost whatever he wants to be ready for the attack (or being slightly annoyed by your harass, which won't include units useful for the push, delay your transition towards the composition, and can be not damaging enough).
I had the same problem in terms of openings and transition with my old TvP Mech macro opening from WoL, which was some kind of tank expand into thor / banshee to defend 2 bases (and grab a third instead of going allin) : i can't do it in HotS simply because there is no safe way to get up 2 gas early enough while defending all the protoss stuff (or having the possibility to, since especially oracles requires quite specific answers) while getting your expansion ready.
On August 11 2014 07:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: Doesn't Storm just kill that mass WM play?
Basically a matter of control, using tanks and splitting well widow mines to minimize damage. Also protoss tends to charge in before the storms kill the mines, for some reason...
Personally i have mixed feelings about tank/mine play. I hated it before the patch, but i tried it since, and it now seems kinda cool, even though it is.. weird to play. My favorite style remain my good old thor/Tank/Ghost/Hellbat/Air, but widow mines as your "reactor units" seems extremely good nowadays and i'll clearly use it more often
Yeah it would be nice to see some more games of this WM Tank style to see how he deals with Storms. Back when i used to play i felt like every time Protoss realised he was up against many mines, he would just Storm the crap out of them or used Colossus to clear any mines that are not covered by sufficient Tank fire. I came to the conclusion that WMs are best used to rush in to the Immortal/ Archon army during battle (kind of like Banelings against Marines), but i'd love to see WMs used more like actual mines.
On August 12 2014 04:02 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah it would be nice to see some more games of this WM Tank style to see how he deals with Storms. Back when i used to play i felt like every time Protoss realised he was up against many mines, he would just Storm the crap out of them or used Colossus to clear any mines that are not covered by sufficient Tank fire. I came to the conclusion that WMs are best used to rush in to the Immortal/ Archon army during battle (kind of like Banelings against Marines), but i'd love to see WMs used more like actual mines.
I'm keeping my eye on this!
Storm is one of the the reasons I go Mine/Tank/Viking instead of just Mine/Tank. As long as you some Viking is front of your army it is hard for Protoss to storm your WM without getting sniped by Tanks. Especially since I snipe his observers all the time so it hard for him to keep track of where all the mines are.
when playing mech in tvz, is there any way to move out of your base when your opponent plays ultra heavy? i have made the experience that on open field ultras just destroy anything the mech player can make, even thor heavy armies get just destroyed when the ultras get a good surround. when he adds hydras to his army it`s even worse because you have to make many tanks to deal with them which get roflstomped by the ultras. i really enjoy playing mech but its not fun when you have to turtle the whole game in your base until the zerg runs out of meaningful units.
On August 13 2014 23:56 Charoisaur wrote: when playing mech in tvz, is there any way to move out of your base when your opponent plays ultra heavy? i have made the experience that on open field ultras just destroy anything the mech player can make, even thor heavy armies get just destroyed when the ultras get a good surround. when he adds hydras to his army it`s even worse because you have to make many tanks to deal with them which get roflstomped by the ultras. i really enjoy playing mech but its not fun when you have to turtle the whole game in your base until the zerg runs out of meaningful units.
I don't think there is a way to be aggressive or to even leave your base. If the map allows, I block all entrances to my base with buildings and defend. Because even if u trade somewhat good he will remax in seconds and totally wreck you.
On July 22 2014 03:00 codonbyte wrote: I think Avilo's Rules of Mech should be added to the OP.
The op hasn't been updated in a while, it seems. And his "rules of mech" are far from being any kind of definitive thing on the subject. Just his own, and there is no real point in any every single mech player own sets of rules into something,unless it is a thread named "set of rules of every mech player in the world"
On July 22 2014 03:43 KingofGods wrote: I used to go mech tvz until I lost too often to mutas. Bio doesn't deal with mass mutas very well either but at least you have a chance to stream across the map and do damage.
Sadly yeha, they're a big problem with mech - the "best" thing to do finally is to mass turrets are sensitive locations (like 10+ turrets) with mines and a thor. . . and then abuse sensor tower to reposition the air fleet.
My Rules of Mech are objective and benefit anyone that is learning mech or wants to learn from experience of thousands of mech games played instead of losing games because they did not know such information.
On August 11 2014 07:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: Doesn't Storm just kill that mass WM play?
Mass mine is terrible vs P, as is anything that goes past 5 factories because Protoss can indeed just storm+immortal or better yet, just immediately throw up 2-3 stargates and mass pure tempest + whatever ground they had, and then you get obliterated because of being too far behind vs tempest accumulation.
I remember playing a lot of mine+tank during the beta, husky even casted a game of me vs whitera and vs someone else (abomb)? It only worked decent then because everyone including myself still sucked at HOTS.
Mech will never be truly viable versus Protoss until immortals are toned down vs mech, and tempests are increased in supply imo back to what they were during the beta (6 supply). And when i say Mech, i mean tank/factory based mech. You can play mech right now but it has to be in conjunction with mass raven to even have a chance.
On July 22 2014 03:00 codonbyte wrote: I think Avilo's Rules of Mech should be added to the OP.
The op hasn't been updated in a while, it seems. And his "rules of mech" are far from being any kind of definitive thing on the subject. Just his own, and there is no real point in any every single mech player own sets of rules into something,unless it is a thread named "set of rules of every mech player in the world"
On July 22 2014 03:43 KingofGods wrote: I used to go mech tvz until I lost too often to mutas. Bio doesn't deal with mass mutas very well either but at least you have a chance to stream across the map and do damage.
Sadly yeha, they're a big problem with mech - the "best" thing to do finally is to mass turrets are sensitive locations (like 10+ turrets) with mines and a thor. . . and then abuse sensor tower to reposition the air fleet.
My Rules of Mech are objective and benefit anyone that is learning mech or wants to learn from experience of thousands of mech games played instead of losing games because they did not know such information.
whatever you can call "mine", unless you're an indisputed korean pro, isn't definitive, especially in your case. Your rules are your rules, and they're nothing objective nor definitive... as shown by the fact that they're nothing constantly shown by highest level mech play, and by the fact that a tons of players with ranking slightly below / equivalent / higher than you aren't using them or anything close. They're your rules, don't try once again to shove it down everyone's throat and act like the only mech reference.
On August 11 2014 07:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: Doesn't Storm just kill that mass WM play?
Mass mine is terrible vs P, as is anything that goes past 5 factories because Protoss can indeed just storm+immortal or better yet, just immediately throw up 2-3 stargates and mass pure tempest + whatever ground they had, and then you get obliterated because of being too far behind vs tempest accumulation.
I remember playing a lot of mine+tank during the beta, husky even casted a game of me vs whitera and vs someone else (abomb)? It only worked decent then because everyone including myself still sucked at HOTS.
Mech will never be truly viable versus Protoss until immortals are toned down vs mech, and tempests are increased in supply imo back to what they were during the beta (6 supply). And when i say Mech, i mean tank/factory based mech. You can play mech right now but it has to be in conjunction with mass raven to even have a chance.
The subject there wasn't actually mass mines, but the mine / tanks / whatever mainly used by Mario, which actually demolished any kind of immortal-based play without any hope for the protoss, and the addition of vikings, which are usually the "whatever" allows to prevent a too dangerous tempest switch.
Not the most solid or developped thing, but the tank / mine combo, especially since the up, isn't something to forget instantly.
On August 11 2014 07:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: Doesn't Storm just kill that mass WM play?
Mass mine is terrible vs P, as is anything that goes past 5 factories because Protoss can indeed just storm+immortal or better yet, just immediately throw up 2-3 stargates and mass pure tempest + whatever ground they had, and then you get obliterated because of being too far behind vs tempest accumulation.
I remember playing a lot of mine+tank during the beta, husky even casted a game of me vs whitera and vs someone else (abomb)? It only worked decent then because everyone including myself still sucked at HOTS.
Mech will never be truly viable versus Protoss until immortals are toned down vs mech, and tempests are increased in supply imo back to what they were during the beta (6 supply). And when i say Mech, i mean tank/factory based mech. You can play mech right now but it has to be in conjunction with mass raven to even have a chance.
Given that Mario is beating Protoss players with ease that you would have a lot of trouble against -- to the point that you've largely stopped Meching vs Protoss -- I think people can use common sense to see who has more success with their Mech vs Protoss.
But to answer the original question, it's a matter of positioning. Mario has stated that you have to be more careful with pushing, but the range of Tanks offers some protection vs HTs and Colossi. Mario has also shown splitting off small groups of units to combat HTs.
The above point about Vikings also helps vs Colossus play. Mario has also made Banshees vs Colossi.
On August 12 2014 04:02 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah it would be nice to see some more games of this WM Tank style to see how he deals with Storms. Back when i used to play i felt like every time Protoss realised he was up against many mines, he would just Storm the crap out of them or used Colossus to clear any mines that are not covered by sufficient Tank fire. I came to the conclusion that WMs are best used to rush in to the Immortal/ Archon army during battle (kind of like Banelings against Marines), but i'd love to see WMs used more like actual mines.
I'm keeping my eye on this!
Here are some replays of the Mine/Tank videos he made, and also some others, including one vs Blink Stalker/Colossus. Notice how he uses positioning and timing to help combat HTs.
I still haven't yet seen a game where the Protoss actually can get some good Storms off vs Mario using this style, but I would imagine that the same logic used against Colossi applies as far as positioning with Tanks and pushing slower is concerned.
I veto'd catallena, merry go around, and foxtrot but Nimbus is giving me lots of trouble securing that 4th because how large the space is and me not being able to split my army and all. How is merry go around?
On August 18 2014 15:32 jinjin5000 wrote: I veto'd catallena, merry go around, and foxtrot but Nimbus is giving me lots of trouble securing that 4th because how large the space is and me not being able to split my army and all. How is merry go around?
I Have the same maps vetoed and also problems with nimbus. But I prefer Nimbus over merry because you can atleast easily secure 3 bases.
On August 19 2014 20:06 Meavis wrote: was wondering if this could be included as well, despite this not seeing much use on GM level I think this could serve anyone master or below and maybe even GM if more explored. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/461537-tvp-aggresive-mech
I certainly think this could be added. Dayshi makes a very similar style work. Day[9] even had a daily on it. Dayshi transitions into more traditional Mech from the early-mid Hellion/Viking, though. http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-694-dayshis-mech-vs-protoss/
Anyone feel future of Mech isn't looking very good in LotV? I'd like some opinions.
Mech is a fundamentally very deathbally and incredibly strong composition-One could say it works almost like Protoss; Depending on hitting the critical number of units to achieve its maximum efficiency and assortment of AoE in its arsenal to deliver heavy punishment if directly engaged under ideal conditions.
With the new changes coming into LotV to force away from more deathball oriented builds, it is going to change the state of Mech drastically. Not only does Mech units cost a lot, its build time is very slow and its reinforcement methods very slow. At best there are reactor pumped Hellions/WM which aren't the best of reinforcements. It also has no real way to retreat if stuck in bad battle because of how immobile it is- thats the nature of mech. Mech is also very supply heavy, with siege tanks costing 3 supply-but harm from that would be explained next paragraph.
Of course, with new changes coming into LotV, it won't be doing any favors to this composition as the building times are both slow and expensive. Tank-dependant Mech play simply cannot handle being below critical number and be largely ineffective- it requires far too much resource and time to produce in sufficient numbers, which other compositions reach far faster, Mostly because of the nature of ranged army strength being multiplied exponentially as the numbers grow as explained in : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/465353-simple-combat-lanchesters-square-law.
With the new abilities coming into LotV to "encourage micro", it is simply going to punish innately stationary Mech play more than any other composition in game-without much to give back. Mech is already a composition that trades away its mobility but additional new abilities adding up to game wouldn't really justify much of sacrifice Mech does make for its power. It rather seems disproportionate. People have already seen that Mech is already rarely an option in TvP and among other matches due to its sheer immobility and available counters- Example seen with Chargelot-Archon-Immortal play which straight up hard counters Factory play as Archon takes reduced damage from all units bar WM and Thor (and bonus splash against hellbats), and Immortals straight up hard countering 2 of the units. Chargelots also take comparably reduced damage from what it has been before and has incredible survivability against tanks.
With immortal nerf brings up another case: its shield ability replenishes shield to extra 200 which would be hit to already rare TvP mech play with ghosts not being as effective in ghostmech composition than ever before. Immortals are actually looking to gain shield against Mech.
There is also case of Mech lacking in AA department and needing to rely on non-factory unit to solve that problem in form of vikings: But vikings are very filmsey and useless outside of its AA capabilities as it has no armor while having armored status just for sake of receiving damage. It current serves at best to act as very weak expensive buffer in emergency situations and doesn't really fill the hole goliath served. Cyclone is proposed but its lack of innate range and extreme expense doesn't do much.
Yes- you may argue that Mech is getting arguably a "huge buff" with siege tanks being allowed to be picked up in Mech army but that isn't serving much purpose to general Mech play. What purpose do those medivacs serve outside of it? Mech is insufficiently weak before its critical mass and all Medivac is going to do is to cut into army supply that could be used on other units while only being able to transport tiny fraction of units available due to cargo space mech takes. While it may increase the mobility, it isn't doing much to available firepower which decreases rapidly as numbers go south.
I am just asking that if there is going to be tradeoffs, make it proportionate to compensate the sacrifice. Right now, it may seem bit knee-jerky since LotV isn't even on beta yet, but it seems like with direction blizzard is heading, they may completely wipe off a variation of Terran play and choice when it is already rarely seen due to its disadvantage. It simply sacrifices too much for little in return at direction it is going now.
tl;dr: -Mech is weak in smaller-medium numbers -Sparse resource is only going to make it weaker with Mech not working very well before hitting critical mass -other indirect nerfs encouraging faster play: see above -Current buffs would buff Marine Tank style but serves as dead weight -Cyclones don't really solve the AA weakness gulf Mech has -Mech is looking to trade away quite a lot of its advantage in LotV for not much in return.
I think mobile mech and mech in low numbers can be an option, I've been playing with hellion/cyclone and is a really good comp for map control (even if the cyclone is bugged) banshees are really strong, the pick up on tank is very strong too (I tend to make a lot of them anywat because I play a heavy Hellbat/Medivac Bomber style of mech).
Production is a problem but I don't know how much it needs more testing, and with micro you can really make your army more efficient were as now mech is not very micro intensive, it remains to be seen I guess.
As for AA, I agree, right now mech AA (thors and vikings) can't really catch up to the other races air forces (mutas, phoenix, etc) and with the nerf to PDD sky terran seems too weak, the teleport buff seems nice but it has no use in direct combat, overall Blizz needs to address AA more, for mobility I think mech is ok, if you have good micro you can make a small amount of units really cost efficient and I like that
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZycXoxB.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/post-123068-1294716943.jpg)
he mech everywhere 
